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He said it: Prof Lewontin’s strawman “justification” for imposing a priori materialist censorship on origins science

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Yesterday, in the P Z Myers quote-mining and distortion thread, I happened to cite Lewontin’s infamous 1997 remark in his NYRB article, “Billions and Billions of Demons,” on a priori imposition of materialist censorship on origins science, which reads in the crucial part:

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

To my astonishment, I was promptly accused of quote-mining and even academic malpractice, because I omitted the following two sentences, which — strange as it may seem —  some evidently view as justifying the above censoring imposition:

The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

To my mind, instead, these last two sentences are such a sad reflection of bias and ignorance, that their omission is an act of charity to a distinguished professor.

Similar, in fact, to how I also did not refer to the case prof Lewontin also cited, of what we were invited to believe was a “typical fundamentalist”  woman who disbelieved the TV broadcasts of the Moon landing in 1969 on grounds that she could not receive broadcasts from Dallas. By telling contrast, Lewontin somehow omitted to mention that the designer of the Moon rocket, Werner von Braun, was a Bible-believing, Evangelical Christian and Creationist who kept a well-thumbed Gideon Bible in his office.

The second saddest thing in this, is that ever so many now seem to be unaware that:

1: Historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. Newton’s remarks in his General Scholium to his famous work, Principia (which introduces his Laws of Motion and Gravitation), are a classic illustration of this historical fact.

[Let me add an excerpt from the GS: “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]”]

2: As C S Lewis and many other popular as well as technical theological and historical writers point out (cf. here, here and here), in theism, miracles are signs pointing from the ordinary course of the world to the special intervention of God. As such, a world in which miracles happen MUST be a world in which there is an ordinary, predictable day to day course of events — one that is amenable to science, rather than the rationality-sapping chaos Beck and Lewontin imagine.

3: Similarly, one of the major, well-known emphases of theism is our accountability before God as morally governed agents and stewards of our world. Such accountability is only reasonable in a cosmos where choices and actions have reliably predictable consequences. Such a world, again, is one in which science is possible.

4: In light of such facts, it is unsurprising that the leading scientists of the foundational era of modern science  often saw themselves as thinking God’s creative and sustaining thoughts after him.

5: Going beyond that, as Nancy Pearcey rightly pointed out in her 2005 article, “Christianity is a Science-starter, not a Science-stopper”:

Most historians today agree that the main impact Christianity had on the origin and development of modern science was positive.  Far from being a science stopper, it is a science starter . . . .

[T]his should come as no surprise.  After all, modern science arose in one place and one time only: It arose out of medieval Europe, during a period when its intellectual life was thoroughly permeated with a Christian worldview.  Other great cultures, such as the Chinese and the Indian, often developed a higher level of technology and engineering.  But their expertise tended to consist of practical know-how and rules of thumb.  They did not develop what we know as experimental science–testable theories organized into coherent systems.  Science in this sense has appeared only once in history.  As historian Edward Grant writes, “It is indisputable that modern science emerged in the seventeenth century in Western Europe and nowhere else.”[7]. . . .

The church fathers taught that the material world came from the hand of a good Creator, and was thus essentially good.  The result is described by a British philosopher of science, Mary Hesse: “There has never been room in the Hebrew or Christian tradition for the idea that the material world is something to be escaped from, and that work in it is degrading.”  Instead, “Material things are to be used to the glory of God and for the good of man.”[19] Kepler is, once again, a good example.  When he discovered the third law of planetary motion (the orbital period squared is proportional to semi-major axis cubed, or P[superscript 2] = a [superscript 3]), this was for him “an astounding confirmation of a geometer god worthy of worship.  He confessed to being ‘carried away by unutterable rapture at the divine spectacle of heavenly harmony’.”[20] In the biblical worldview, scientific investigation of nature became both a calling and an obligation.  As historian John Hedley Brooke explains, the early scientists “would often argue that God had revealed himself in two books—the book of His words (the Bible) and the book of His works (nature).  As one was under obligation to study the former, so too there was an obligation to study the latter.”[21] The rise of modern science cannot be explained apart from the Christian view of nature as good and worthy of study, which led the early scientists to regard their work as obedience to the cultural mandate to “till the garden”. . . .

Today the majority of historians of science agree with this positive assessment of the impact the Christian worldview had on the rise of science.  Yet even highly educated people remain ignorant of this fact.  Why is that? The answer is that history was founded as a modern discipline by Enlightenment figures such as Voltaire, Gibbon, and Hume who had a very specific agenda: They wanted to discredit Christianity while promoting rationalism.  And they did it by painting the middle ages as the “Dark Ages,” a time of ignorance and superstition.  They crafted a heroic saga in which modern science had to battle fierce opposition and oppression from Church authorities.  Among professional historians, these early accounts are no longer considered reliable sources.  Yet they set the tone for the way history books have been written ever since.  The history of science is often cast as a secular morality tale of enlightenment and progress against the dark forces of religion and superstition. Stark puts it in particularly strong terms: “The ‘Enlightenment’ [was] conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists and humanists who attempted to claim credit for the rise of science.”[22] Stark’s comments express a tone of moral outrage that such bad history continues to be perpetuated, even in academic circles.  He himself published an early paper quoting the standards texts, depicting the relationship between Christianity and science as one of constant “warfare.”  He now seems chagrined to learn that, even back then, those stereotypes had already been discarded by professional historians.[23]

Today the warfare image has become a useful tool for politicians and media elites eager to press forward with a secularist agenda . . . [The whole article is well worth the read, here.]

Perhaps, the saddest thing is, even with such correction on the record, many will be so taken in by the myth of the ages-long war of religion attacking science, and by the caricature of the religious as “ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked,” that they will still fail to see that the last two sentences cited from Lewontin above, provide not a justification for materialist censorship on the very definition and methods of science, but instead a further proof of just how ill-instructed, polarising and pernicious such a priori imposition of materialism is.

At the expense of simplicity (and while reserving the right to excerpt from the wider commented quote and using a link back to show the context), I have therefore decided to adjust the commented quotation as follows, to provide a correction on the record:

_____________

>> a key danger of putting materialistic philosophical blinkers on science is that it can easily lead on to the practical establishment of materialistic ideology under false colours of “truth” or the closest practical approximation we can get to it. Where that happens, those who object may then easily find themselves tagged and dismissed as pseudo-scientific (or even fraudulent) opponents of progress, knowledge, right and truth; which can then lead on to very unfair or even unjust treatment at the hands of those who wield power. Therefore, if religious censorship of science (as in part happened to Galileo etc.) was dangerous and unacceptable, materialist censorship must also be equally wrong.

Nor is this danger merely imaginary or a turn-about false accusation, as some would suggest.
For, we may read from Harvard Professor Richard Lewontin’s 1997 New York Review of Books review of the late Cornell Professor Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World, as follows:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. [Perhaps the second saddest thing is that some actually believe that these last three sentences that express hostility to God and then back it up with a loaded strawman caricature of theism and theists JUSTIFY what has gone on before. As a first correction, accurate history — as opposed to the commonly promoted rationalist myth of the longstanding war of religion against science — documents (cf. here, here and here) that the Judaeo-Christian worldview nurtured and gave crucial impetus to the rise of modern science through its view that God as creator made and sustains an orderly world. Similarly, for miracles — e.g. the resurrection of Jesus — to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary course of the world, there must first be such an ordinary course, one plainly amenable to scientific study. The saddest thing is that many are now so blinded and hostile that, having been corrected, they will STILL think that this justifies the above. But, nothingcan excuse the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on science, which distorts its ability to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world.][[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added. (NB: The key part of this quote comes after some fairly unfortunate remarks where Mr Lewontin gives the “typical” example — yes, we can spot a subtext — of an ill-informed woman who dismissed the Moon landings on the grounds that she could not pick up Dallas on her TV, much less the Moon. This is little more than a subtle appeal to the ill-tempered sneer at those who dissent from the evolutionary materialist “consensus,” that they are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. For telling counter-instance, Werner von Braun, the designer of the rocket that took NASA to the Moon, was an evangelical Christian and a Creationist.  Similarly, when Lewontin cites eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck as declaring that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything, drawing as bottom-line, the inference that [[t]o appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen,” this is a sadly sophomoric distortion. One that fails to understand that, on the Judaeo-Christian theistic view, for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary, there must first be an ordinary consistently orderly world, one created by the God of order who “sustains all things by his powerful word.” Also, for us to be morally accountable to God — a major theme in theism, the consequences of our actions must be reasonably predictable, i.e. we must live in a consistent, predictably orderly cosmos, one that would be amenable to science. And, historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. For instance that is why Newton (a biblical theist), in the General Scholium to his famous work Principia, confidently said “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]” In such a context of order stamped in at creation and sustained through God’s power, for good reason, God may then act into the world in ways that go beyond the ordinary, i.e. miracles are possible but will inevitably be rare and in a context that points to such a higher purpose. For instance, the chief miracle claim of Christian thought, the resurrection of Jesus with 500+ witnesses is presented in the NT as decisive evidence for the truth of the gospel and authentication of God’s plan of redemption. So, since these contextual remarks have been repeatedly cited by objectors as though they prove the above cite is an out of context distortion that improperly makes Lewontin seem irrational in his claims,  they have to be mentioned, and addressed, as some seem to believe that such a disreputable “context” justifies the assertions and attitudes above!)]

Mr Lewontin and a great many other leading scientists and other influential people in our time clearly think that such evolutionary materialist scientism is the closest thing to the “obvious” truth about our world we have or can get. This has now reached to the point where some want to use adherence to this view as a criterion of being “scientific,” which to such minds is equivalent to “rational.”>>

______________

Well did Aristotle warn us in his The Rhetoric, Bk I Ch 2:

. . . persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . .

So revealing, then, is the Lewontin quote that it is no surprise that several months later, design thinker Philip Johnson, went on corrective record as follows:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let us hope the above will sufficiently set the record straight that we can now clear the atmosphere of the miasma of poisonous caricatures of theism and theists, and address the substantial matter, the recovery of an objective understanding of what science is and how it should work. For, nothing can justify such a priori censorship as Lewontin advocates — and many others also (including very important official bodies), e.g. the US National Academy of Science and the US National Science Teacher’s Association.

In that interest, I suggest that we would profit from reflecting on this proposed restoration of the more historically warranted, and epistemologically justifiable understanding of what science should seek to be:

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

Let us trust, then, that cooler and wiser heads will now prevail and in the years ahead, science can and will be rescued from ideological censorship and captivity to Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism presented in the name of science, through so-called methodological naturalism.

_______________

CONCLUSION (after a day of intense exchanges):

It seems to me that CD captured the essential problem in the false accusation of quote-mining, as early as comment no 3:

Evolutionists in general absolutely hate it when we use the words of authority figures like Crick and Lewontin against them. So when they say “Stop quote mining” what they actually mean is “Stop quoting!”

Bot is very much mistaken when [in comment no 1, cf below] he claims that Kairosfocus was “concealing the proper context of the quote”. The substantial point – that Lewontin demands an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism – is not altered in any way by the lines that were omitted. What the likes of Bot also need to realise about quoting is that, when quoting, you have to start and end somewhere.

Quoting is an exercise in capturing the essence of the substantial point being made: not reproducing the complete work.

After over 100 further comments, much of it on tangential themes, it is quite evident that this summary still stands. END

_______

F/N: Smoking gun, courtesy Expelled. (HT: News.)

Comments
Which renders the complaint against a priori materialism moot at best.
so in other words its OK to shove the religion atheism down our throats. but no other viewpoints are allowed, its not 'scientific' right.tsmith
June 15, 2011
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the issue over inference to design as a question of “regular” and “scientifically amenable” natural vs “demonic” or chaotic, unpredictable supernatural
It is not me who conflates the issue of inference of design with inference of the supernatural. I never framed it as natural v "demonic" - that was your transparent tactic. I characterize supernatural forces as suspensions of natural regularity. I don't even know of a serious scientific attempt to pose a hypothesis that a supernatural event occurred - do you? Which renders the complaint against a priori materialism moot at best.Driver
June 15, 2011
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KF,
To my mind, instead, these last two sentences are such a sad reflection of bias and ignorance, that their omission is an act of charity to a distinguished professor.
Just curious, KF, but if you took those last two sentences out because you feel they reflect poorly on Lewontin, are you not then changing the overall substance of what he actually wrote to reflect make him look better?Doveton
June 15, 2011
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F/N 3: A smoking gun from Driver . . .
as soon as we give up looking for one [a naturalISTIC explanation] we are no longer doing science
In short, there is the a priori imposition of evolutionary materialist censorship. Right there in front of us. So, we are seeing what the materialist indoctrination does, and it is not so pretty. Now, what is nature, and what is a natural explanation of cause and effect? How do we know ahead of time that the truth about the origin of the cosmos, say, is that it can only be explained in terms of blind laws of necessity and chance circumstances? How do we know ahead of time that the idea that nature could be an artifact is something that cannot be investigated on empirically reliable tested signs, and accepted as a provisional best explanation, similar to any other explanatory model in science? We do not know any such thing. So, what we are seeing is imposition of the censoring interdict of a priori materialism. This, as I have said, is big news; worth highlighting. A second story is how it is all explained away, on a distortion of the history of the origins of modern science and its worldview roots, and a denigratory caricaturing of the views and thought as well as the reputation and character of those who differ. In short, the evidence is plainly piling up that the citation form Lewontin is important as it stands, and that the further citation adds to the force of the point. It is pretty clear that the second bit does not materially change the meaning of the first, nor does it justify the behaviour. Just as the OP pointed out. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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F/N 2: The better way, if you disagree with the design inference, would be to actively investigate and empirically show that claimed reliable empirical signs of design such as functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, are not in fact as claimed. (That has been tried but has consistently failed. There is a whole civilisation worth of directly observed, confirmatory cases.) Not, to impose artificial materialist science stoppers and then strawmannise, demonise or denigrate and dismiss those who challenge the censorship. Further to this, it is emerging very clearly that here is no warrant for the claim that the citation of the imposed a priori materialist censorship is not worthy of being highlighted as something that is inexcusable in its own right. As well, it is increasingly plain that the additional matter addressed in the OP shows a grave step beyond censorship to personal attack against those who would object to it.kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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F/N: Re Driver,
The first possibility is that the laws of nature are inter-related such that fine-tuning is required . . . . The second possibility is beyond scientific observation now, and it might always be (or it might not). My point was that, given fine-tuning, there are natural explanations that can potentially be investigated by science.
The first possibility simply kicks fine tuning up another level. The second, is more or less a tossing of the materialist fog across empirical investigations. In fact, we rouitnely can identify chance, mechanical necessity and design through empirical results, but the resulting empirically tested and reliable signs of design are not convenient to materialism on the fine tuning of the cosmos. So, we now see the imposition of an artificial science stopper, namely a priori materialism. This boils down to a case where the point made in the OP is inadvertently being underscored. So, let us remove artificial censoring restraints from science. Th4re are serious candidate empirical signs of design, such as funcitonallys pecific complex organisaiton and associated informaiton, presence of communicaiton systems based on codes etc. The artificiality of a priori materialism should now be seen for what it is, an ideological scince stopper. And, worse, it is being backed up by a demonstrable misrepresentation of those who happen to differ withthe worldview. Going further, the identificaiton of such a science stoppoer is plainly bifg noews in and of itself. The addition to it of a slander of those who differ, does not change that fact. Indeed, it goes one step beyond, into something worse. And unfortunately, it seems to be a vicious circle that seems to justify itself to those caught up in it by rpojecting stupidity, irrationality and/or evil intent onto those tho differ. Something I am very familiar with from having had to deal with destructive ideologies such as Marxism. Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals:
5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other."
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything.
Was Lewontin quote-mining Lewis Beck?Mung
June 15, 2011
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Accidentally cross-threaded: Driver and BA: Before I head off to do some items, I must note that he matter on this thread is a charge of quote-mining, a charge of academic dishonesty. I request that discussion be specifically tied to that claim and the issues that it raises. GEM of TKI PS: Driver, had you taken time to examine the things you were asked to respond to, you would have seen that the rhetorical ploy of casting the issue over inference to design as a question of “regular” and “scientifically amenable” natural vs “demonic” or chaotic, unpredictable supernatural is a serious act of question-begging and strawman tactics. The proper contrast is the study of nature vs art on reliable empirical signs, which in the case of the fine tuning of the cosmos DOES point to intelligent causes that lie beyond the natural world we inhabit, and are therefore in a very literal sense super-natural. In addition, this issue in no wise can justify imposition of censorship of inconvenient but otherwise all too plausible possible explanations, through a priori materialism. Nor, could this strawman dichotomy magically provide a context in which the highlighting of inexcusable censorship is turned into a twisting of what Mr Lewontin had to say. He proposed ideological censorship of science through a priori materialism, indeed more or less said it was the common and “absolute” practice. Utterly inexcusable. BIG story. He tried to justify it on casting those who object into the mould of being irrational etc, this was already in what was cited. That he then went on to try to justify this by misrepresenting theism and theists was simply the next step, over the cliff into a further fallacy of distraction, not any sudden provision of a context that justifies censorship of science on evolutionary materialistic ideology.kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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the whole 'multiverse' is just more evidence that 'science' has become atheism. come up with any fantasy rather than have to acknowledge there is a God in heaven. Occam's razor anyone?tsmith
June 15, 2011
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The multiverse is a consequence of established science. God is not. That is why there are scientific papers written about multiverses but none about God. oh please.
Although it's pure speculation, there's something appealing about considering multiple universes (a scenario known as the "multiverse") where anything -- and I mean anything -- is possible. But just because an alternate universe is possible, it doesn't mean life can exist there.
http://news.discovery.com/space/can-life-exist-in-alternate-universes.htmltsmith
June 15, 2011
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Rather than asking how long we should keep searching for naturalistic explanations, you first need to provide a good reason for believing that there can only be a naturalistic explanation in the first place. Especially when Intelligent Design is so scientifically obvious.
Chris, a question. Is there anything, theoretically speaking, that prevents this (or these) designer(s) from changing...say...the color of the sky from blue to brown tomorrow or making any other miraculous change? Just curious. Any known limits to the designer's capability whatsoever? Just curious.Doveton
June 15, 2011
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UB,
If natural law is the observation of regularity in the material universe, then those regularities would certainly have arisen with the material universe itself (lest they be the regularities of something that doesn’t yet exist), in which case they didn’t have anything to do with bringing the material universe into existence (unless we want to say that something that doesn’t exist can cause something to happen).
Of course, the universe did not become how it is today all of a sudden.
Yet science regularly and openly and vigorously postulates it right now…and the content of that postulate is given considerable space and attention within scientific text.
Yes it is a hypothesis. It is given considerable space because the idea is a consequence of established science.
While at the same time they vehemently attack anyone for postulating the idea that a transcendent being might be the thing which exist outside of our material universe.
I am not aware of a scientific hypothesis that proposes the existence of a transcendent being which exists outside of our material universe, so I can't see how this hypothesis can have been attacked within the scientific literature. "Scientific literature" has a specific meaning: the papers produced by scientists published in scientific journals. It doesn't include popular books, some of which may be about, or partly about, science. We are talking about doing science - don't confuse that with scientists attacking the god hypothesis in their "spare time", so to speak.
Two unobservable possibilities, yet one is science and the other is not.
"There is a growing body of empirical evidence confirming the inflationary theory of cosmology, which underlies the hugeness and hypothetical diversity of the universe." - Leonard Susskind The multiverse is a consequence of established science. God is not. That is why there are scientific papers written about multiverses but none about God. How would we even begin to construct a scientific hypothesis about God? What measurable qualities would we look for?Driver
June 15, 2011
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Where is the scientific evidence that life does not have a naturalistic origin?
how many decades of OOL have been failures? but, just as believing the eye evolved without any evidence, keep the faith.tsmith
June 15, 2011
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Mung,
MathGrrl herself is guilty of quote mining.
It's very easy to make an accusation without supporting it. That reflects more on the accuser than the accused, though.MathGrrl
June 15, 2011
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An a priori commitment to naturalism means you’ve already decided it all made itself before fully investigating the matter.
I don't think that follows, Chris. Methodological naturalism does not require that the universe assemble itself or that natural laws are all there is - that would be philosophical naturalism. Methodological naturalism merely holds that a methodological approach (in whatever context the method is being used) must be limited to that which is natural. Methodological naturalism does not assume that nature/natural are all there is, it just recognizes that nature/natural is all that can be evaluated from a practical standpoint.Doveton
June 15, 2011
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Chris,
An a priori commitment to naturalism means you’ve already decided it all made itself before fully investigating the matter.
No, it only means you are committed to looking for natural causes. It doesn't necessarily mean you rule out the supernatural in principle. It does rule out inferring the supernatural, for the reason that the methodology of science is to look for regularities in nature and the supernatural is by definition beyond those regularities. The miraculous event occurs outside natural regularity. I don't see how by doing science you can ever conclude a supernatural cause for something in nature. That would be to stop looking for regularities. It really is a methodological rather than a philosophical problem.
You may not know how life arose, but you do know that it wasn’t made by Intelligent Design am I right?
No I do not know that. I don't know how life arose.
All those failed experiments simply confirmed that there is no point trying to convert lead into gold for financial gain
No those failed experiments didn't confirm that. It was not confirmed until we actually discovered how to turn lead into gold. We didn't know how much it would cost until we could actually do it! Anyhow, it's beyond the point how much it cost. The point I was making was that scientific knowledge (eg how to turn lead into gold) can take a long time. There's no objective point at which you can give up doing science, conclude the supernatural, and somehow declare that scientific.
We are right to give up naturalistic explanations for things that could not possibly have made themselves.
Where is the scientific evidence that life does not have a naturalistic origin?Driver
June 15, 2011
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Thanks to what we know about nature (weather erosion, physics) we can conclude for example that this bridge was not designed.
and in the same way, thanks to what we know about biology, we can conclude the cell was designed.
The problem with the universe and fine tuning is we don’t yet know enough about its physics (or the physics of the multiverse)
thats debatable whether or not we know enough about physics to come to that conclusion. the physics of the multiverse is uknowable, since the multiverse is mere speculation...unsupported by any data at all.. I find it interesting that you include the multiverse in science, yet there is far less reason to believe in a multiverse than God.tsmith
June 15, 2011
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Driver,
No, I should explain myself better. The first possibility is that the laws of nature are inter-related such that fine-tuning is required. It may be, for example, that a quantum theory of gravity reveals that certain parameters should be within certain values.
I understand, but there are issues that remain. If natural law is the observation of regularity in the material universe, then those regularities would certainly have arisen with the material universe itself (lest they be the regularities of something that doesn't yet exist), in which case they didn't have anything to do with bringing the material universe into existence (unless we want to say that something that doesn't exist can cause something to happen).
The second possibility is beyond scientific observation now, and it might always be (or it might not).
Yet science regularly and openly and vigorously postulates it right now...and the content of that postulate is given considerable space and attention within scientific text. While at the same time they vehemently attack anyone for postulating the idea that a transcendent being might be the thing which exist outside of our material universe. (since we all 'get it' that something did indeed transcend our universe). - - - - - - Two unobservable possibilities, yet one is science and the other is not. A partisan may simply be unable to grasp this deformity in logic, but to a balanced observer the hypocracy and the abuse of science is rather obvious.Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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Hiya Driver, As I already point out, the only scientific part of the term ‘methodological naturalism’ is the ‘methodological’ part. An a priori commitment to naturalism means you’ve already decided it all made itself before fully investigating the matter. If forensic scientists had this attitude, then we would all be able to get away with murder! Observations and experiments can always be interpreted in a naturalistic manner - “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved” - but interpretations tell us more about the prejudices of the interpreter than they do about the objective scientific facts (which have a nasty habit of slaying beautiful naturalistic hypotheses!) Rather than asking how long we should keep searching for naturalistic explanations, you first need to provide a good reason for believing that there can only be a naturalistic explanation in the first place. Especially when Intelligent Design is so scientifically obvious. You may not know how life arose, but you do know that it wasn’t made by Intelligent Design am I right? To ignore all the other examples I gave and bring up Alchemy is missing the point. We might be able to transmute lead into gold with massive inputs of energy, but then that would cost more than the gold is worth in the first place. All those failed experiments simply confirmed that there is no point trying to convert lead into gold for financial gain (what other reason is there to try?) We were right to give up this pursuit. We are right to give up naturalistic explanations for things that could not possibly have made themselves. On February 28, 1953 Francis Crick walked into the Eagle pub in Cambridge, England, and, as James Watson later recalled, announced that "we had found the secret of life." Some people applied naturalistic interpretations to the discovery of DNA. Even today, materialists still believe it just made itself. In 2009, over 50 years later, Stephen C Meyer’s “Signature in the Cell” was published combining all of the observational and experimental evidence we’ve amassed to determine that DNA cannot possibly make itself by chance and/or necessity. It is a product of Intelligent Design.Chris Doyle
June 15, 2011
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then it is premature to conclude an intelligent agent is responsible why? when you see a pile of stones how do you conclude they were built by man, even though you don’t know who built them, or why, or by an avalanche? so use the same reasoning on biological systems, or cosmological ones.
Well there is certainly the possibility of false positives for human design. We use what we know about nature and what we know about intelligent designers (humans) to make the inference. Thanks to what we know about nature (weather erosion, physics) we can conclude for example that this bridge was not designed. The problem with the universe and fine tuning is we don't yet know enough about its physics (or the physics of the multiverse) to be able to tell if the constants of nature are of natural origin. For positive inference of design, we need evidence that only a designer could have produced the phenomenon. We need to know more about nature and some way of inferring the hand of the designer. If we could calculate the CSI of the universe, it would perhaps be a start.Driver
June 15, 2011
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Nearly 230 years later, University of Missouri researchers combined written accounts and tree ring records from fire-damaged trees to determine that the dark day was caused by massive wildfires burning in Canada.
what if those wildfires were caused by an person letting a campfire get out of control?tsmith
June 15, 2011
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as to kf's request to stay on topic, I refrain from further comment to Driver on this thread.bornagain77
June 15, 2011
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then it is premature to conclude an intelligent agent is responsible
why? when you see a pile of stones how do you conclude they were built by man, even though you don't know who built them, or why, or by an avalanche? so use the same reasoning on biological systems, or cosmological ones.tsmith
June 15, 2011
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Hi Upright Biped.
You postulate two possibilities for the fine tuning issue. The first possibility says that something can create itself (which is illogical) and you second possibility is beyond scientific obervation. …just FYI
No, I should explain myself better. The first possibility is that the laws of nature are inter-related such that fine-tuning is required. It may be, for example, that a quantum theory of gravity reveals that certain parameters should be within certain values. The second possibility is beyond scientific observation now, and it might always be (or it might not). My point was that, given fine-tuning, there are natural explanations that can potentially be investigated by science. Even if you grant the premise of fine-tuning (which I incidentally do not), then it is premature to conclude an intelligent agent is responsible (although they might be).Driver
June 15, 2011
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Hi Chris.
What happens if there isn’t a naturalistic explanation?
The problem is that as soon as we give up looking for one we are no longer doing science. How do we even objectively set a time period after which we give up looking and conclude that there is no naturalistic explanation. Lots of things are hitherto unexplained in science, yet scientists do no stop looking for naturalistic explanations. Nor should they.
Every experiment we’ve ever done to try and produce life from non-life naturalistically has failed: but that doesn’t stop you from believing this ‘miracle’ happened does it?
Actually, my position is that I do not know how life arose. Abiogenesis research has led to greater understanding of chemistry, so certainly it is not a field that should be abandoned. Aside from that, there is again the problem of setting a time-frame on fruitful research. Should we give up after fifty years, a hundred? It could have been assumed that after hundreds of years of trying it was impossible to turn lead into gold, but scientists now know the secret. On May 19, 1780 an unusual darkening of the day sky was observed over the New England states and parts of Canada. Some people in New England applied religious interpretations to the event. Even today New England’s Dark Day is still regarded by many as a supernatural event. In 2008, Nearly 230 years later, University of Missouri researchers combined written accounts and tree ring records from fire-damaged trees to determine that the dark day was caused by massive wildfires burning in Canada.Driver
June 15, 2011
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cont. Driver: The Day I Died – Part 4 of 6 – The Extremely ‘Monitored’ Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) – Pim von Lommel – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This ‘anomaly’ is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – view http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/bornagain77
June 15, 2011
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Driver it may interest you to know that you will go to a higher dimension when you die to this naturalistic 'everyday world' (funny how naturalism has a such slippery use for you so as to avoid Theism) i.e. There is a timeless-spaceless component to you, and all of us, that never dies: i.e. there is a ‘higher dimensional’ component to life that transcends this material realm: The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection.” Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 4-Dimensional Quarter Power Scaling In Biology – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5964041/ Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for ‘random’ Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this ‘four dimensional scaling’ of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional ‘expectation’ for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an ‘emergent’ property of the 3-D material realm. Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? A.C. McINTOSH Excerpt: It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. http://journals.witpress.com/journals.asp?iid=47 Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ It is very interesting to note that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, for how can the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) ’cause’ when the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ falsified material particles as its own ‘causation’ in the first place? The Failure Of Local Realism – Materialism – Alain Aspect – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘special’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! Yet it is also very interesting to note, in Darwinism’s inability to explain this ‘transcendent quantum effect’ adequately, that Theism has always postulated a transcendent component to man that is not constrained by time and space. i.e. Theism has always postulated a ‘eternal soul’ for man that lives past the death of the body. The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings 3D to 4D shift – Carl Sagan – video with notes Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VS1mwEV9wA Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.htmlbornagain77
June 15, 2011
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Driver #30 You postulate two possibilities for the fine tuning issue. The first possibility says that something can create itself (which is illogical) and you second possibility is beyond scientific obervation. ...just FYIUpright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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‘I simply accept that the world on the very small scale is not how it seems to be to us creatures who live a macro-scale existence.’ But where is your drive for a more complete understanding of the truth that is so essential for scientific endeavor???
I accept the scientific facts of quantum mechanics. Yes there is a drive for a more complete understanding, but that is not an insistence that there is "really" a local realistic cause of quantum behaviour. You see, Bell's theorem shows that qm must violate either locality or what is called "counterfactual definiteness", something we take for granted in our everyday, large-scale world.
As to Quantum mechanics operating ONLY at a ‘very small scale’, it might interest you to know that quantum mechanics operates at a ‘universe wide scale’
Indeed, but my point was that in the world as we experience it on the everyday macro-scale, we do not directly witness quantum weirdness. So when we found it, it seemed counterintuitive to us. However, the fact that it is counterintuitive does not mean that there necessarily is a more intuitive explanation.Driver
June 15, 2011
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Driver, you said..
If you can show that science can allow for the inference of gods then please do so. I think the methodology, if it leads to testable and falsifiable predictions, would create a revolution in science.
I disagree. I think it would create a revolution in our understanding of god.lastyearon
June 15, 2011
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