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He said it: Prof Lewontin’s strawman “justification” for imposing a priori materialist censorship on origins science

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Yesterday, in the P Z Myers quote-mining and distortion thread, I happened to cite Lewontin’s infamous 1997 remark in his NYRB article, “Billions and Billions of Demons,” on a priori imposition of materialist censorship on origins science, which reads in the crucial part:

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

To my astonishment, I was promptly accused of quote-mining and even academic malpractice, because I omitted the following two sentences, which — strange as it may seem —  some evidently view as justifying the above censoring imposition:

The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

To my mind, instead, these last two sentences are such a sad reflection of bias and ignorance, that their omission is an act of charity to a distinguished professor.

Similar, in fact, to how I also did not refer to the case prof Lewontin also cited, of what we were invited to believe was a “typical fundamentalist”  woman who disbelieved the TV broadcasts of the Moon landing in 1969 on grounds that she could not receive broadcasts from Dallas. By telling contrast, Lewontin somehow omitted to mention that the designer of the Moon rocket, Werner von Braun, was a Bible-believing, Evangelical Christian and Creationist who kept a well-thumbed Gideon Bible in his office.

The second saddest thing in this, is that ever so many now seem to be unaware that:

1: Historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. Newton’s remarks in his General Scholium to his famous work, Principia (which introduces his Laws of Motion and Gravitation), are a classic illustration of this historical fact.

[Let me add an excerpt from the GS: “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]”]

2: As C S Lewis and many other popular as well as technical theological and historical writers point out (cf. here, here and here), in theism, miracles are signs pointing from the ordinary course of the world to the special intervention of God. As such, a world in which miracles happen MUST be a world in which there is an ordinary, predictable day to day course of events — one that is amenable to science, rather than the rationality-sapping chaos Beck and Lewontin imagine.

3: Similarly, one of the major, well-known emphases of theism is our accountability before God as morally governed agents and stewards of our world. Such accountability is only reasonable in a cosmos where choices and actions have reliably predictable consequences. Such a world, again, is one in which science is possible.

4: In light of such facts, it is unsurprising that the leading scientists of the foundational era of modern science  often saw themselves as thinking God’s creative and sustaining thoughts after him.

5: Going beyond that, as Nancy Pearcey rightly pointed out in her 2005 article, “Christianity is a Science-starter, not a Science-stopper”:

Most historians today agree that the main impact Christianity had on the origin and development of modern science was positive.  Far from being a science stopper, it is a science starter . . . .

[T]his should come as no surprise.  After all, modern science arose in one place and one time only: It arose out of medieval Europe, during a period when its intellectual life was thoroughly permeated with a Christian worldview.  Other great cultures, such as the Chinese and the Indian, often developed a higher level of technology and engineering.  But their expertise tended to consist of practical know-how and rules of thumb.  They did not develop what we know as experimental science–testable theories organized into coherent systems.  Science in this sense has appeared only once in history.  As historian Edward Grant writes, “It is indisputable that modern science emerged in the seventeenth century in Western Europe and nowhere else.”[7]. . . .

The church fathers taught that the material world came from the hand of a good Creator, and was thus essentially good.  The result is described by a British philosopher of science, Mary Hesse: “There has never been room in the Hebrew or Christian tradition for the idea that the material world is something to be escaped from, and that work in it is degrading.”  Instead, “Material things are to be used to the glory of God and for the good of man.”[19] Kepler is, once again, a good example.  When he discovered the third law of planetary motion (the orbital period squared is proportional to semi-major axis cubed, or P[superscript 2] = a [superscript 3]), this was for him “an astounding confirmation of a geometer god worthy of worship.  He confessed to being ‘carried away by unutterable rapture at the divine spectacle of heavenly harmony’.”[20] In the biblical worldview, scientific investigation of nature became both a calling and an obligation.  As historian John Hedley Brooke explains, the early scientists “would often argue that God had revealed himself in two books—the book of His words (the Bible) and the book of His works (nature).  As one was under obligation to study the former, so too there was an obligation to study the latter.”[21] The rise of modern science cannot be explained apart from the Christian view of nature as good and worthy of study, which led the early scientists to regard their work as obedience to the cultural mandate to “till the garden”. . . .

Today the majority of historians of science agree with this positive assessment of the impact the Christian worldview had on the rise of science.  Yet even highly educated people remain ignorant of this fact.  Why is that? The answer is that history was founded as a modern discipline by Enlightenment figures such as Voltaire, Gibbon, and Hume who had a very specific agenda: They wanted to discredit Christianity while promoting rationalism.  And they did it by painting the middle ages as the “Dark Ages,” a time of ignorance and superstition.  They crafted a heroic saga in which modern science had to battle fierce opposition and oppression from Church authorities.  Among professional historians, these early accounts are no longer considered reliable sources.  Yet they set the tone for the way history books have been written ever since.  The history of science is often cast as a secular morality tale of enlightenment and progress against the dark forces of religion and superstition. Stark puts it in particularly strong terms: “The ‘Enlightenment’ [was] conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists and humanists who attempted to claim credit for the rise of science.”[22] Stark’s comments express a tone of moral outrage that such bad history continues to be perpetuated, even in academic circles.  He himself published an early paper quoting the standards texts, depicting the relationship between Christianity and science as one of constant “warfare.”  He now seems chagrined to learn that, even back then, those stereotypes had already been discarded by professional historians.[23]

Today the warfare image has become a useful tool for politicians and media elites eager to press forward with a secularist agenda . . . [The whole article is well worth the read, here.]

Perhaps, the saddest thing is, even with such correction on the record, many will be so taken in by the myth of the ages-long war of religion attacking science, and by the caricature of the religious as “ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked,” that they will still fail to see that the last two sentences cited from Lewontin above, provide not a justification for materialist censorship on the very definition and methods of science, but instead a further proof of just how ill-instructed, polarising and pernicious such a priori imposition of materialism is.

At the expense of simplicity (and while reserving the right to excerpt from the wider commented quote and using a link back to show the context), I have therefore decided to adjust the commented quotation as follows, to provide a correction on the record:

_____________

>> a key danger of putting materialistic philosophical blinkers on science is that it can easily lead on to the practical establishment of materialistic ideology under false colours of “truth” or the closest practical approximation we can get to it. Where that happens, those who object may then easily find themselves tagged and dismissed as pseudo-scientific (or even fraudulent) opponents of progress, knowledge, right and truth; which can then lead on to very unfair or even unjust treatment at the hands of those who wield power. Therefore, if religious censorship of science (as in part happened to Galileo etc.) was dangerous and unacceptable, materialist censorship must also be equally wrong.

Nor is this danger merely imaginary or a turn-about false accusation, as some would suggest.
For, we may read from Harvard Professor Richard Lewontin’s 1997 New York Review of Books review of the late Cornell Professor Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World, as follows:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. [Perhaps the second saddest thing is that some actually believe that these last three sentences that express hostility to God and then back it up with a loaded strawman caricature of theism and theists JUSTIFY what has gone on before. As a first correction, accurate history — as opposed to the commonly promoted rationalist myth of the longstanding war of religion against science — documents (cf. here, here and here) that the Judaeo-Christian worldview nurtured and gave crucial impetus to the rise of modern science through its view that God as creator made and sustains an orderly world. Similarly, for miracles — e.g. the resurrection of Jesus — to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary course of the world, there must first be such an ordinary course, one plainly amenable to scientific study. The saddest thing is that many are now so blinded and hostile that, having been corrected, they will STILL think that this justifies the above. But, nothingcan excuse the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on science, which distorts its ability to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world.][[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added. (NB: The key part of this quote comes after some fairly unfortunate remarks where Mr Lewontin gives the “typical” example — yes, we can spot a subtext — of an ill-informed woman who dismissed the Moon landings on the grounds that she could not pick up Dallas on her TV, much less the Moon. This is little more than a subtle appeal to the ill-tempered sneer at those who dissent from the evolutionary materialist “consensus,” that they are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. For telling counter-instance, Werner von Braun, the designer of the rocket that took NASA to the Moon, was an evangelical Christian and a Creationist.  Similarly, when Lewontin cites eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck as declaring that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything, drawing as bottom-line, the inference that [[t]o appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen,” this is a sadly sophomoric distortion. One that fails to understand that, on the Judaeo-Christian theistic view, for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary, there must first be an ordinary consistently orderly world, one created by the God of order who “sustains all things by his powerful word.” Also, for us to be morally accountable to God — a major theme in theism, the consequences of our actions must be reasonably predictable, i.e. we must live in a consistent, predictably orderly cosmos, one that would be amenable to science. And, historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. For instance that is why Newton (a biblical theist), in the General Scholium to his famous work Principia, confidently said “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]” In such a context of order stamped in at creation and sustained through God’s power, for good reason, God may then act into the world in ways that go beyond the ordinary, i.e. miracles are possible but will inevitably be rare and in a context that points to such a higher purpose. For instance, the chief miracle claim of Christian thought, the resurrection of Jesus with 500+ witnesses is presented in the NT as decisive evidence for the truth of the gospel and authentication of God’s plan of redemption. So, since these contextual remarks have been repeatedly cited by objectors as though they prove the above cite is an out of context distortion that improperly makes Lewontin seem irrational in his claims,  they have to be mentioned, and addressed, as some seem to believe that such a disreputable “context” justifies the assertions and attitudes above!)]

Mr Lewontin and a great many other leading scientists and other influential people in our time clearly think that such evolutionary materialist scientism is the closest thing to the “obvious” truth about our world we have or can get. This has now reached to the point where some want to use adherence to this view as a criterion of being “scientific,” which to such minds is equivalent to “rational.”>>

______________

Well did Aristotle warn us in his The Rhetoric, Bk I Ch 2:

. . . persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . .

So revealing, then, is the Lewontin quote that it is no surprise that several months later, design thinker Philip Johnson, went on corrective record as follows:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let us hope the above will sufficiently set the record straight that we can now clear the atmosphere of the miasma of poisonous caricatures of theism and theists, and address the substantial matter, the recovery of an objective understanding of what science is and how it should work. For, nothing can justify such a priori censorship as Lewontin advocates — and many others also (including very important official bodies), e.g. the US National Academy of Science and the US National Science Teacher’s Association.

In that interest, I suggest that we would profit from reflecting on this proposed restoration of the more historically warranted, and epistemologically justifiable understanding of what science should seek to be:

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

Let us trust, then, that cooler and wiser heads will now prevail and in the years ahead, science can and will be rescued from ideological censorship and captivity to Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism presented in the name of science, through so-called methodological naturalism.

_______________

CONCLUSION (after a day of intense exchanges):

It seems to me that CD captured the essential problem in the false accusation of quote-mining, as early as comment no 3:

Evolutionists in general absolutely hate it when we use the words of authority figures like Crick and Lewontin against them. So when they say “Stop quote mining” what they actually mean is “Stop quoting!”

Bot is very much mistaken when [in comment no 1, cf below] he claims that Kairosfocus was “concealing the proper context of the quote”. The substantial point – that Lewontin demands an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism – is not altered in any way by the lines that were omitted. What the likes of Bot also need to realise about quoting is that, when quoting, you have to start and end somewhere.

Quoting is an exercise in capturing the essence of the substantial point being made: not reproducing the complete work.

After over 100 further comments, much of it on tangential themes, it is quite evident that this summary still stands. END

_______

F/N: Smoking gun, courtesy Expelled. (HT: News.)

Comments
Richard Dawkins weighs in on science and the supernatural- Dawkins starts around 14:30Joseph
June 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed, add tRNA and AARSs to your list.
The tRNA molecules contain 70 to 80 nucleotides and fold into a characteristic cloverleaf structure. Specialized tRNAs exist for each of the 20 amino acids needed for protein synthesis, and in many cases more than one tRNA for each amino acid is present...The amino acids are loaded onto the tRNAs by specialized enzymes called aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, usually with one synthetase for each amino acid.
Mung
June 15, 2011
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PS: Why do you insist on framing thusly:
What methodology can we use to determine an entity who does not function according to laws?
Do you not see that we routinely and successfully study empirical traces and characteristics of both chance and art, which do not fit in under deterministic laws? So, why should we passively sit by and allow a censorship to benumb such studies when the conclusions we arrive at, e.g. on the fine tuned cosmos, may be uncomfortable for those who would act thusly -- and the linked has the context and comments for those who think this is quote-mining:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
This is utterly indefensible, and if a point cannot be defended, a distraction often works to duck it. In reply, I note that this stands on its own and speaks for itself as an advocacy of censorship on science. To try to defend such by smearing those who would object that hey are so gullible as to believe anything, and accusing them falsely of believing in a chaos not a cosmos amenable to scientific study simply carries this to the next step of walking off the cliff.kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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I would like some clarification on how the part that KF originally omitted changes the context. MathGrrl:
Please see my comments numbered 33 and 37 in the original thread.
Yes, I read tose and I am not buying any of it. I was wondering if someone has a valid point to make. Thanks...Joseph
June 15, 2011
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KF,
I would have preferred not to have to go after prof Lewontin on the way he cited and commented on Beck [it is both a sadly sophomoric error on his part -- do you REALLY think that those who believe in God are gullible and would believe "anything"? on what evidence? or is that not gratuitous contempt-filled prejudice? -- and tangential to the key matter, a priori imposed materialism], but now I have little choice.
Needless to say, it does not matter in this case what I believe, but rather what Lewontin believed. It seems to me that Lewontin was not in anyway referring to gullibility and believing in anything in general. His statement appears to be in the context of what Beck noted, and then more fully elaborated in context in his second sentence - that believers in God can believe in anything in terms of explanations of the phenomenon seen in this world. He does make it clear that he did indeed believe that those who believe in God could accept just about anything as an explanation - "that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen" - for any phenomenon. Is this not so? Do you not believe that miracles can happen, KF? Does such a belief not then allow that God can rupture the regularities of nature, creating irregular, non-repeatable, inconsistent, and unpredictable causes for any and all events at any time? If so, I'd say you substantiate what Lewontin believed. If not, could you explain the parameters that are placed on God that dictate the miracles he can and cannot perform and when? Of course, there's the other side of this to consider. Lewontin was a pretty smart guy - I'm sure you agree. I'm betting he knew what wrote and why. That you feel it reflects poorly on him is all well and good, but going so far as changing it out of pity is a might bit arrogant, would you not agree? What makes you think you know better than what Lewontin actually stated? Further, what makes you think Lewontin needs or wants protecting and pity? I clearly can't speak for Lewontin, but if you chose to drop two sentences from the work of most authors - and certainly the scholarly ones - I know as an act of charity, they would be quite insulted. It seems then a rather weak and unflattering claim that one should take pity and change the meaning of such a bright an articulate author so as make his words and thoughts conform more to the image of what you imagine he could have been.Doveton
June 15, 2011
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I never said it did. I am talking about what Lewontin is talking about, which is excluding the supernatural from science.
How do you define 'supernatural?' Is the unknown supernatural? If we see an effect and search the cause, which is yet unknown, is it supernatural, and then does it become natural once we understand it? Were eclipses supernatural until we understood their causes? It seems that 'supernatural' is a fuzzy, arbitrary line between what we understand and what we don't. Given how much we don't understand, that seems like a foolish, limited way to perceive reality.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
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Driver. reading over your post...two quick points: 1.
No, the idea is taken seriously because empirical evidence from established science suggests it.
Yet the physical evidence of codes and physico-dynamically inert symbol systems in genetic information processing doesn’t even lift an eyebrow. The fact that the origin of these systems are only associated with the living kingdom is simply ignored. 2.
In pointing out the methodological difficulty of inferring the supernatural (which suspends natural regularities)...
I repeat from my previous comment: "Driver, ID does not “incorporate the supernatural” into its hyposthesis. Thats particular duty is left to the materialist watchdogs so that they can keep the straw burning." Thank you for proving my point.Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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Lol. Tell that to Francis Collins.
he does bow at the altar of darwin...but he still encounters criticism because he is a christian... another example of the extreme 'tolerance' in academia...tsmith
June 15, 2011
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Driver: Why do you insist on the question-begging, agenda- and poison- loaded dichotomy imposed by ideologues in lab coats, "natural vs supernatural," when the correct issue is nature [= chance and/or necessity] vs ART, with the further study of reliable empirical traces of these causal factors? Why is it that you are unable to address the specific points in linked documents squarely on the merits? is it that you are able to cite indoctrinated talking points that attack cleverly set up strawmen, but struggle to address the real issues? Please, think. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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Is that “long term” planning, or is it “short term” planning?
One has to wonder, if it is indeed the case that life has been on this planet from almost the first moment this planet could sustain life, and thus has persisted for billions of years, whether this would ever be acknowledged as evidence in favor of "long-term" planning. I'm thinking the evidence doesn't really matter.Mung
June 15, 2011
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That’s the real divide, between us, I think – not that scientists refuse to admit the Divine Foot,
obviously they do, as several quotes from people like Provine that I posted earlier make clear. the lengths that atheists posing as 'scientists' go to deny God is laughable. like the multiverse...pure speculation...but it HAS to be true...because the alternative is UNTHINKABLE. (paraphrasing arthur keith) or as Wald said:
George Wald, an evolutionist, states, "When it comes to the origin of life there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved one hundred years ago, but that leads us to only one other conclusion, that of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds; therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance!" ("The Origin of Life," Scientific American, 191:48. May 1954).
the only difference is what you put your faith in...btsmith
June 15, 2011
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Dr REC: Tell that to Marvin Gaskell, Caroline Crocker, Granville Sewell, and others all the way back to Dean Kenyon and beyond. Then, tell it to the countless others who suffer the same but have not had the benefit of headlines. The callous indifference to censorship and career busting under the false name of science will eventually blow back in the faces of those doing it, and it will not be nice. Do you not see what is being piled up until one day it will burst forth on you? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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Driver, ID does not “incorporate the supernatural” into its hyposthesis.
I never said it did. I am talking about what Lewontin is talking about, which is excluding the supernatural from science.Driver
June 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed: I didn't say that living things don't display "intent" - they do. I said that that the evolutionary processes that are postulated to give rise to not predict intent, and intent is conspicuously absent from in the hierarchical nesting pattern identified by Linnaeus in living things. But living things themselves do display "intent" - in fact most organisms in the animal kingdom are well designed to make "forward models" of their actions, and select them on the basis of both their immediate and more distal utility. So, the interesting question is: how could a mechanism for which there seems to be no, or limited, capacity for forward modelling (there may be more than we usually think) result in organisms that have that capacity? It's a good question, but one to which there are potentially good answers.Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
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UB,
So let me get this right: In your original remark you state that it is unobservable, but yet a mere remark or two later, it has become elevated to the status of established science.
No, the idea is taken seriously because empirical evidence from established science suggests it. One technical reason for taking it seriously is that there is no unique vacuum in theories of high energy physics that involve spontaneous symmetry breaking, extra dimensions, or supersymmetry. In other words, it seems that the laws of physics in this universe could have been different. The multiverse concept has some explanatory power based on, for example, the theory of inflation which itself has strong evidential support. That doesn't mean that the multiverse is a given. Now, physicists are already doing things with the multiverse idea such as looking for evidence in the Cosmic Microwave Background of collisions between our universe and "bubbles" from other universes. They are already performing tests based on the hypothesis.
Please tell me how the dynamic of this scenario is different than a design proponent knowing that he/she cannot directly see or measure an unobservable phenomena, but finds physical artifacts of its presence left in this universe,
Firstly, let me clear some things up by stating that I don't believe that methodological naturalism entails a commitment to only positing entities that are in this universe. Something can in principle still exhibit regularity, allowing it to be studied, and be outside, or partly outside, this universe. The commitment with mn is to looking for regularities. In pointing out the methodological difficulty of inferring the supernatural (which suspends natural regularities) I am not pointing out the methodological difficulty of inferring design. That is a separate question. One problem I am pointing out is inferring that something that affects nature is supernatural. How do you determine that? What methodology can we use to determine an entity who does not function according to laws?Driver
June 15, 2011
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"of course if you are a scientist, and don’t bow at the altar of atheims then you are expelled." Lol. Tell that to Francis Collins.DrREC
June 15, 2011
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it is to recognise that any Divine Foot is, essentially, not amenable to scientific investigation. why not? since you are investigating an ordered universe...one that has predictable laws...which is merely a reflection of the creator of that universe. everything you rely upon to do 'science' is because of a predictable ordered universe...why do you think science as you know it grew out of christian europe and not the world of islam? the god of islam is unpredictable, the God of christianity and Judiasm is not.tsmith
June 15, 2011
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It only affects you directly if you are scientist.
no, if affects the students force-fed atheism by their 'scientific' professors/teachers... of course if you are a scientist, and don't bow at the altar of atheims then you are expelled.tsmith
June 15, 2011
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What about the logic gate in the lac operon? Does it display intent?Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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And what about genetic error correction? What is an error, and to what does an error contrast to?Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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Or, how about the STOP codon, is that a product of Intentionality, or sheer dumb luck?Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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PS: Doveton, think about the mindset of those who imagine thatan anecdote about a woman who on her limited experience doubts that TV could be broadcast from the Moon, or from a sneering strawman dismissal of theists as gullible and irrational believers in chaos, to the notion that such JUSTIFIES materialistic ideological censorship of science. If the Inquisition -- which still exists BTW, under a different name -- were to be censoring science, the same people would be screaming for murder. Notice, too, how across today and yesterday, not one of the ever so confident accusers of quote mining have reasonably addressed Newton or von Braun, or the history of the founding of modern science and its idea-roots, not to mention say the implications of blocks and treatments vs controls design of experimental or clinical studies, which incorporates a design inference. Ask yourself, what does this tell you?kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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Or how about the longterm storage of genetic information, away from the chaotic environment? Is that "long term" planning, or is it "short term" planning?Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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So to those of us on our side of the impasse, the next question is: is there any evidence of foresight in the design of living things? How about the protocols for reading genetic information? From what physical laws did it come, and when did it appear?Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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Doveton: It was not necessary to the main point to elaborate on the strawman blunder. So, in charity I would have chosen to leave it out, as I also originally left out the story of the woman who disbelieved in receiving broadcasts from the Moon. I was accused of quotemining on the moon story so I put in a foot note, recently adding the point on von Braun. I have now been even more sharply accused, by someone with a track record, so I have put in the additional two sentences and have decided to explicitly markup the citation. Makes it harder to read, but makes the problems explicit. I would have preferred not to have to go after prof Lewontin on the way he cited and commented on Beck [it is both a sadly sophomoric error on his part -- do you REALLY think that those who believe in God are gullible and would believe "anything"? on what evidence? or is that not gratuitous contempt-filled prejudice? -- and tangential to the key matter, a priori imposed materialism], but now I have little choice. Thanks to MG and her circle over at MF's blog, I now have little choice. What I find astonishing is that some people actually seem to believe that the two sentences JUSTIFY ideological censorship on science. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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I have to say (perhaps unsurprisingly!) that I am absolutely with driver here. Nor do I think it's irrelevant to the OP. Obviously any quotation from any source is drawn to make a point, so I think the question as to whether it becomes a "quotemine" is somewhat moot. The issue really is whether the drawer-of-the-quote has drawn a justifiable inference from the original. And perhaps it is reasonable for UDists to react as they have done to Lewontin's words, whether or not the following sentences are taken into account or not. But I think the real problem lies far deeper than the issue of "quotemining", and that driver has put his finger right on it. The original excerpt was:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
And the following part was:
The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.
Clearly to those who interpret Lewontin's words as meaning, essentially "at all costs we must deny the possibility of God", the subsequent sentences only amplify that meaning. However, to those of us who interpret the earlier part of the quote rather differently, the omitted words are crucial. Here is my gloss on Lewontin's words:
It is not that the scientific establishment forces us to accept a material explanation for the material world, but, on the contrary, that our a priori commitment to finding material causes leads to a methodology designed to do just that, no matter how surprising they may be. Moreover material causes is the only kind of cause we are equipped to find; any other cause subverts the entire basis of our methodology.
And this is, to our eyes, clarified by:
The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.
In other words, that appealing to the "supernatural" to explain the "natural" is to assume that our reliance on the regularities of nature that allows us to draw causal inferences about the world is unfounded. I wouldn't choose Lewontin's words myself, so here are mine: Science is a method designed to investigate material aka "natural" causality. If a scientific principle is apparently broken (gravity defied, for instance) it is the scientist's job to find what is wrong with the scientific principle, and how it must be adjusted to account for the observed phenomenon. That is not to refuse to accept the possibility of a Divine Foot; it is to recognise that any Divine Foot is, essentially, not amenable to scientific investigation. Science cannot, in other words, by definition, investigate the super-natural, not because scientists are required, as a condition of their PhDs to reject a non-material universe, but because a methodology designed to investigate material causes cannot enlighten us as to non-material causes. All science can do, in the face of an apparent supernatural event, is to say: "either this is out of our range, or there's a material cause we've missed". And so they investigate possible material causes. The alternative is to say simply "we don't know". Which is not a good reason for any scientists to down tools! And this, fundamentally, is what puzzles me about the whole ID project. I'm a scientist; I'm interested in intelligent (I'm a cognitive scientist) and I'm interested in design (I trained in architecture, and I'm a small-time composer). So, confronted with clear evidence (as I see it) of intelligent design in living things, my first question is: "what kind of intelligence designed this?" And science gives us excellent tools with which to investigate that question. It even, pace Dembski himself, gives us tools to investigate intentional design. But here we reach an impasse, or at least, a blockage: there is a perfectly good intelligent system that can account for the design we see in living things, but it is a system without much depth of foresight. So to those of us on our side of the impasse, the next question is: is there any evidence of foresight in the design of living things? Because if there is, clearly we to look elsewhere. But if we have evidence of lack of foresight, then we have a good contender. I think the evidence suggests the latter, myself, but I know where I'd look to try to find the former. What I find puzzling is that those who want science to acknowledge the possibility of an intentional designer aren't generally prepared to look for the evidence that would support that hypothesis. Instead, what we see is Intelligent Design advanced as the null. That's the real divide, between us, I think - not that scientists refuse to admit the Divine Foot, but that the Divine Foot can only be investigated by scientific method if it is granted the status of a study hypothesis and not simply relegated to the Null. The problem of course, is that that would render said Foot not Divine!Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
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MathGrrl writes:
Without these two sentences, your excerpt implies that Lewontin is claiming that science is actively and irrationally anti-religious.
Well, perhaps it seems that way to her, but it doesn't seem that way to me.
That [the Lewontin quote] is not complete. Indeed, there are two additional sentences that conclude the very paragraph you quote that are essential to Lewontin’s thesis:
And that thesis is? I missed the part where we're told what Lewontin's thesis is. And how do the last two sentences change the meaning of what came before?Mung
June 15, 2011
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Driver, ID does not "incorporate the supernatural" into its hyposthesis. Thats particular duty is left to the materialist watchdogs so that they can keep the straw burning.Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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no other viewpoints are allowed, its not ‘scientific’ right.
You can have any viewpoint you like. I am talking about the methodological difficulty of incorporating the supernatural into a scientific hypothesis. It's not something that affects the viewpoints you hold. It only affects you directly if you are scientist.Driver
June 15, 2011
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Driver, "Of course, the universe did not become how it is today all of a sudden." Sorry, this comment does nothing to correct the misplaced logic of your original remark. Its a punt. "Yes it is a hypothesis. It is given considerable space because the idea is a consequence of established science." So let me get this right: In your original remark you state that it is unobservable, but yet a mere remark or two later, it has become elevated to the status of established science. Funny how that works. - - - - - - - - Please tell me how the dynamic of this scenario is different than a design proponent knowing that he/she cannot directly see or measure an unobservable phenomena, but finds physical artifacts of its presence left in this universe, which are completely amenable to scientific inquiry? What is the specific quantity that states one unobservable-artifact-leaving-hypothesis may be studied, but the other cannot?Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
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