Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

He said it: Prof Lewontin’s strawman “justification” for imposing a priori materialist censorship on origins science

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Yesterday, in the P Z Myers quote-mining and distortion thread, I happened to cite Lewontin’s infamous 1997 remark in his NYRB article, “Billions and Billions of Demons,” on a priori imposition of materialist censorship on origins science, which reads in the crucial part:

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

To my astonishment, I was promptly accused of quote-mining and even academic malpractice, because I omitted the following two sentences, which — strange as it may seem —  some evidently view as justifying the above censoring imposition:

The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

To my mind, instead, these last two sentences are such a sad reflection of bias and ignorance, that their omission is an act of charity to a distinguished professor.

Similar, in fact, to how I also did not refer to the case prof Lewontin also cited, of what we were invited to believe was a “typical fundamentalist”  woman who disbelieved the TV broadcasts of the Moon landing in 1969 on grounds that she could not receive broadcasts from Dallas. By telling contrast, Lewontin somehow omitted to mention that the designer of the Moon rocket, Werner von Braun, was a Bible-believing, Evangelical Christian and Creationist who kept a well-thumbed Gideon Bible in his office.

The second saddest thing in this, is that ever so many now seem to be unaware that:

1: Historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. Newton’s remarks in his General Scholium to his famous work, Principia (which introduces his Laws of Motion and Gravitation), are a classic illustration of this historical fact.

[Let me add an excerpt from the GS: “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]”]

2: As C S Lewis and many other popular as well as technical theological and historical writers point out (cf. here, here and here), in theism, miracles are signs pointing from the ordinary course of the world to the special intervention of God. As such, a world in which miracles happen MUST be a world in which there is an ordinary, predictable day to day course of events — one that is amenable to science, rather than the rationality-sapping chaos Beck and Lewontin imagine.

3: Similarly, one of the major, well-known emphases of theism is our accountability before God as morally governed agents and stewards of our world. Such accountability is only reasonable in a cosmos where choices and actions have reliably predictable consequences. Such a world, again, is one in which science is possible.

4: In light of such facts, it is unsurprising that the leading scientists of the foundational era of modern science  often saw themselves as thinking God’s creative and sustaining thoughts after him.

5: Going beyond that, as Nancy Pearcey rightly pointed out in her 2005 article, “Christianity is a Science-starter, not a Science-stopper”:

Most historians today agree that the main impact Christianity had on the origin and development of modern science was positive.  Far from being a science stopper, it is a science starter . . . .

[T]his should come as no surprise.  After all, modern science arose in one place and one time only: It arose out of medieval Europe, during a period when its intellectual life was thoroughly permeated with a Christian worldview.  Other great cultures, such as the Chinese and the Indian, often developed a higher level of technology and engineering.  But their expertise tended to consist of practical know-how and rules of thumb.  They did not develop what we know as experimental science–testable theories organized into coherent systems.  Science in this sense has appeared only once in history.  As historian Edward Grant writes, “It is indisputable that modern science emerged in the seventeenth century in Western Europe and nowhere else.”[7]. . . .

The church fathers taught that the material world came from the hand of a good Creator, and was thus essentially good.  The result is described by a British philosopher of science, Mary Hesse: “There has never been room in the Hebrew or Christian tradition for the idea that the material world is something to be escaped from, and that work in it is degrading.”  Instead, “Material things are to be used to the glory of God and for the good of man.”[19] Kepler is, once again, a good example.  When he discovered the third law of planetary motion (the orbital period squared is proportional to semi-major axis cubed, or P[superscript 2] = a [superscript 3]), this was for him “an astounding confirmation of a geometer god worthy of worship.  He confessed to being ‘carried away by unutterable rapture at the divine spectacle of heavenly harmony’.”[20] In the biblical worldview, scientific investigation of nature became both a calling and an obligation.  As historian John Hedley Brooke explains, the early scientists “would often argue that God had revealed himself in two books—the book of His words (the Bible) and the book of His works (nature).  As one was under obligation to study the former, so too there was an obligation to study the latter.”[21] The rise of modern science cannot be explained apart from the Christian view of nature as good and worthy of study, which led the early scientists to regard their work as obedience to the cultural mandate to “till the garden”. . . .

Today the majority of historians of science agree with this positive assessment of the impact the Christian worldview had on the rise of science.  Yet even highly educated people remain ignorant of this fact.  Why is that? The answer is that history was founded as a modern discipline by Enlightenment figures such as Voltaire, Gibbon, and Hume who had a very specific agenda: They wanted to discredit Christianity while promoting rationalism.  And they did it by painting the middle ages as the “Dark Ages,” a time of ignorance and superstition.  They crafted a heroic saga in which modern science had to battle fierce opposition and oppression from Church authorities.  Among professional historians, these early accounts are no longer considered reliable sources.  Yet they set the tone for the way history books have been written ever since.  The history of science is often cast as a secular morality tale of enlightenment and progress against the dark forces of religion and superstition. Stark puts it in particularly strong terms: “The ‘Enlightenment’ [was] conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists and humanists who attempted to claim credit for the rise of science.”[22] Stark’s comments express a tone of moral outrage that such bad history continues to be perpetuated, even in academic circles.  He himself published an early paper quoting the standards texts, depicting the relationship between Christianity and science as one of constant “warfare.”  He now seems chagrined to learn that, even back then, those stereotypes had already been discarded by professional historians.[23]

Today the warfare image has become a useful tool for politicians and media elites eager to press forward with a secularist agenda . . . [The whole article is well worth the read, here.]

Perhaps, the saddest thing is, even with such correction on the record, many will be so taken in by the myth of the ages-long war of religion attacking science, and by the caricature of the religious as “ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked,” that they will still fail to see that the last two sentences cited from Lewontin above, provide not a justification for materialist censorship on the very definition and methods of science, but instead a further proof of just how ill-instructed, polarising and pernicious such a priori imposition of materialism is.

At the expense of simplicity (and while reserving the right to excerpt from the wider commented quote and using a link back to show the context), I have therefore decided to adjust the commented quotation as follows, to provide a correction on the record:

_____________

>> a key danger of putting materialistic philosophical blinkers on science is that it can easily lead on to the practical establishment of materialistic ideology under false colours of “truth” or the closest practical approximation we can get to it. Where that happens, those who object may then easily find themselves tagged and dismissed as pseudo-scientific (or even fraudulent) opponents of progress, knowledge, right and truth; which can then lead on to very unfair or even unjust treatment at the hands of those who wield power. Therefore, if religious censorship of science (as in part happened to Galileo etc.) was dangerous and unacceptable, materialist censorship must also be equally wrong.

Nor is this danger merely imaginary or a turn-about false accusation, as some would suggest.
For, we may read from Harvard Professor Richard Lewontin’s 1997 New York Review of Books review of the late Cornell Professor Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World, as follows:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. [Perhaps the second saddest thing is that some actually believe that these last three sentences that express hostility to God and then back it up with a loaded strawman caricature of theism and theists JUSTIFY what has gone on before. As a first correction, accurate history — as opposed to the commonly promoted rationalist myth of the longstanding war of religion against science — documents (cf. here, here and here) that the Judaeo-Christian worldview nurtured and gave crucial impetus to the rise of modern science through its view that God as creator made and sustains an orderly world. Similarly, for miracles — e.g. the resurrection of Jesus — to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary course of the world, there must first be such an ordinary course, one plainly amenable to scientific study. The saddest thing is that many are now so blinded and hostile that, having been corrected, they will STILL think that this justifies the above. But, nothingcan excuse the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on science, which distorts its ability to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world.][[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added. (NB: The key part of this quote comes after some fairly unfortunate remarks where Mr Lewontin gives the “typical” example — yes, we can spot a subtext — of an ill-informed woman who dismissed the Moon landings on the grounds that she could not pick up Dallas on her TV, much less the Moon. This is little more than a subtle appeal to the ill-tempered sneer at those who dissent from the evolutionary materialist “consensus,” that they are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. For telling counter-instance, Werner von Braun, the designer of the rocket that took NASA to the Moon, was an evangelical Christian and a Creationist.  Similarly, when Lewontin cites eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck as declaring that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything, drawing as bottom-line, the inference that [[t]o appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen,” this is a sadly sophomoric distortion. One that fails to understand that, on the Judaeo-Christian theistic view, for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary, there must first be an ordinary consistently orderly world, one created by the God of order who “sustains all things by his powerful word.” Also, for us to be morally accountable to God — a major theme in theism, the consequences of our actions must be reasonably predictable, i.e. we must live in a consistent, predictably orderly cosmos, one that would be amenable to science. And, historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. For instance that is why Newton (a biblical theist), in the General Scholium to his famous work Principia, confidently said “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]” In such a context of order stamped in at creation and sustained through God’s power, for good reason, God may then act into the world in ways that go beyond the ordinary, i.e. miracles are possible but will inevitably be rare and in a context that points to such a higher purpose. For instance, the chief miracle claim of Christian thought, the resurrection of Jesus with 500+ witnesses is presented in the NT as decisive evidence for the truth of the gospel and authentication of God’s plan of redemption. So, since these contextual remarks have been repeatedly cited by objectors as though they prove the above cite is an out of context distortion that improperly makes Lewontin seem irrational in his claims,  they have to be mentioned, and addressed, as some seem to believe that such a disreputable “context” justifies the assertions and attitudes above!)]

Mr Lewontin and a great many other leading scientists and other influential people in our time clearly think that such evolutionary materialist scientism is the closest thing to the “obvious” truth about our world we have or can get. This has now reached to the point where some want to use adherence to this view as a criterion of being “scientific,” which to such minds is equivalent to “rational.”>>

______________

Well did Aristotle warn us in his The Rhetoric, Bk I Ch 2:

. . . persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . .

So revealing, then, is the Lewontin quote that it is no surprise that several months later, design thinker Philip Johnson, went on corrective record as follows:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let us hope the above will sufficiently set the record straight that we can now clear the atmosphere of the miasma of poisonous caricatures of theism and theists, and address the substantial matter, the recovery of an objective understanding of what science is and how it should work. For, nothing can justify such a priori censorship as Lewontin advocates — and many others also (including very important official bodies), e.g. the US National Academy of Science and the US National Science Teacher’s Association.

In that interest, I suggest that we would profit from reflecting on this proposed restoration of the more historically warranted, and epistemologically justifiable understanding of what science should seek to be:

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

Let us trust, then, that cooler and wiser heads will now prevail and in the years ahead, science can and will be rescued from ideological censorship and captivity to Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism presented in the name of science, through so-called methodological naturalism.

_______________

CONCLUSION (after a day of intense exchanges):

It seems to me that CD captured the essential problem in the false accusation of quote-mining, as early as comment no 3:

Evolutionists in general absolutely hate it when we use the words of authority figures like Crick and Lewontin against them. So when they say “Stop quote mining” what they actually mean is “Stop quoting!”

Bot is very much mistaken when [in comment no 1, cf below] he claims that Kairosfocus was “concealing the proper context of the quote”. The substantial point – that Lewontin demands an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism – is not altered in any way by the lines that were omitted. What the likes of Bot also need to realise about quoting is that, when quoting, you have to start and end somewhere.

Quoting is an exercise in capturing the essence of the substantial point being made: not reproducing the complete work.

After over 100 further comments, much of it on tangential themes, it is quite evident that this summary still stands. END

_______

F/N: Smoking gun, courtesy Expelled. (HT: News.)

Comments
continued Driver: Yet, the unification, into a ‘theory of everything’, between what is in essence the ‘infinite Theistic world of Quantum Mechanics’ and the ‘finite Materialistic world of the space-time of General Relativity’ seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man. Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, though not directly addressing the Zero/Infinity conflict in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers insight into this ‘unification’ of the infinite and the finite: The End Of Christianity – Finding a Good God in an Evil World – Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: “In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity.” http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Moreover there actually is physical evidence that lends strong support to the position that the ‘Zero/Infinity conflict’, we find between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, was successfully dealt with by Christ: The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram – Face And Body – Dr. Petrus Soons – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5889891/ A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 “Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature.” St. Augustine Philippians 2: 5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. While I agree with a criticism, from a Christian, that was leveled against the preceding Shroud of Turin video, that God indeed needed no help from the universe in the resurrection event of Christ since all things are possible with God, I am none-the-less very happy to see that what is considered the number one problem of Physicists and Mathematicians in physics today, of a ‘unification into a theory of everything’ for what is in essence the finite world of General Relativity and the infinite world of Quantum Mechanics, does in fact seem to find a successful resolution for ‘unification’ within the resurrection event of Jesus Christ Himself. It seems almost overwhelmingly apparent to me from the ‘scientific evidence’ we now have that Christ literally ripped a hole in the finite entropic space-time of this universe to reunite infinite God with finite man. That modern science would even offer such a almost tangible glimpse into the mechanics of what happened in the tomb of Christ should be a source of great wonder and comfort for the Christian heart. Psalms 16:10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. It is also interesting to note that ‘higher dimensional’ mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated; The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss & Riemann – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/ 3D to 4D shift – Carl Sagan – video with notes Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VS1mwEV9wA I think it should be fairly clear by now that, much contrary to the mediocrity of earth and of humans brought about by the heliocentric discoveries of Galileo and Copernicus, the findings of modern science are very comforting to Theistic postulations in general, and even lends strong support of plausibility to the main tenet of Christianity which holds Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth.”bornagain77
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:49 AM
7
07
49
AM
PDT
Driver you state: 'I simply accept that the world on the very small scale is not how it seems to be to us creatures who live a macro-scale existence.' But where is your drive for a more complete understanding of the truth that is so essential for scientific endeavor??? As to Quantum mechanics operating ONLY at a 'very small scale', it might interest you to know that quantum mechanics operates at a 'universe wide scale': ,,, First I noticed that the earth demonstrates centrality in the universe in this video Dr. Dembski posted a while back; The Known Universe - Dec. 2009 - a very cool video (please note the centrality of the earth in the universe) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U ,,, for a while I tried to see if the 4-D space-time of General Relativity was sufficient to explain centrality we witness for the earth in the universe,,, 4-Dimensional Space-Time Of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/ ,,, yet I kept running into the same problem for establishing the sufficiency of General Relativity to explain our centrality in this universe, in that every time I would perform a 'mental experiment' of trying radically different points of observation in the universe, General Relativity would fail to maintain centrality for the radically different point of observation in the universe. The primary reason for this failure of General Relativity to maintain centrality, for different points of observation in the universe, is due to the fact that there are limited (10^80) material particles to work with. Though this failure of General Relativity was obvious to me, I needed more proof so as to establish it more rigorously, so i dug around a bit and found this; The Cauchy Problem In General Relativity - Igor Rodnianski Excerpt: 2.2 Large Data Problem In General Relativity - While the result of Choquet-Bruhat and its subsequent refinements guarantee the existence and uniqueness of a (maximal) Cauchy development, they provide no information about its geodesic completeness and thus, in the language of partial differential equations, constitutes a local existence. ,,, More generally, there are a number of conditions that will guarantee the space-time will be geodesically incomplete.,,, In the language of partial differential equations this means an impossibility of a large data global existence result for all initial data in General Relativity. http://www.icm2006.org/proceedings/Vol_III/contents/ICM_Vol_3_22.pdf and also 'serendipitously' found this,,, THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: Gödel's personal God is under no obligation to behave in a predictable orderly fashion, and Gödel produced what may be the most damaging critique of general relativity. In a Festschrift, (a book honoring Einstein), for Einstein's seventieth birthday in 1949, Gödel demonstrated the possibility of a special case in which, as Palle Yourgrau described the result, "the large-scale geometry of the world is so warped that there exist space-time curves that bend back on themselves so far that they close; that is, they return to their starting point." This means that "a highly accelerated spaceship journey along such a closed path, or world line, could only be described as time travel." In fact, "Gödel worked out the length and time for the journey, as well as the exact speed and fuel requirements." Gödel, of course, did not actually believe in time travel, but he understood his paper to undermine the Einsteinian worldview from within. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html But if General Relativity is insufficient to explain the centrality we witness for ourselves in the universe, what else is? Universal Quantum wave collapse to each unique point of observation! To prove this point I dug around a bit and found this experiment,,, This following experiment extended the double slit experiment to show that the 'spooky actions', for instantaneous quantum wave collapse, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance i.e. The following experiment shows that quantum actions are 'universal and instantaneous': Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm ,, and to make universal quantum Wave collapse much more 'personal' I found this,,, "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://eugene-wigner.co.tv/ Here is the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries: Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center'. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. The expansion of every 3D point in the universe, and the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe to each point of conscious observation in the universe, is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence that Physicists, and Mathematicians, seem to be having a extremely difficult time ‘unifying’ into a ‘theory of everything’.(Einstein, Penrose). The conflict of reconciling General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics appears to arise from the inability of either theory to successfully deal with the Zero/Infinity problem that crops up in different places of each theory: THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to today’s physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics. However, these two pillars of modern science were bound to be incompatible. “The universe of general relativity is a smooth rubber sheet. It is continuous and flowing, never sharp, never pointy. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, describes a jerky and discontinuous universe. What the two theories have in common – and what they clash over – is zero.”,, “The infinite zero of a black hole — mass crammed into zero space, curving space infinitely — punches a hole in the smooth rubber sheet. The equations of general relativity cannot deal with the sharpness of zero. In a black hole, space and time are meaningless.”,, “Quantum mechanics has a similar problem, a problem related to the zero-point energy. The laws of quantum mechanics treat particles such as the electron as points; that is, they take up no space at all. The electron is a zero-dimensional object,,, According to the rules of quantum mechanics, the zero-dimensional electron has infinite mass and infinite charge. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htmbornagain77
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:48 AM
7
07
48
AM
PDT
Hello again Driver, I think the confusion lies in your term ‘methodological naturalism’. The only scientific part of that term is ‘methodological’ in the sense that ‘doing science’ is a matter of observation and experiment. I agree that seeking naturalistic explanations for the things we observe and experiment upon is a part of science. But it is not the whole story. Nor are regularities.What happens if there isn’t a naturalistic explanation? Intelligence – human or otherwise – changes the natural order of things and produces irregularities. It would be stretching the definition of ‘naturalistic’ to breaking point if you included these sort of Intelligently Designed irregularities in its remit. Every experiment we’ve ever done to try and produce life from non-life naturalistically has failed: but that doesn’t stop you from believing this ‘miracle’ happened does it? The existence of primitive precursors to modern cells has never been demonstrated by any observation or experiment: but yet you believe they must have existed do you not? And it could be argued if a prokaryote turned into a eukaryote, this was also a miraculous event: unsupported by any kind of observation or experiment but yet believed in by you nonetheless, right? Just the mention of Dark Energy, Dark Matter and Multiverses is enough to underline my point. So, let’s not pretend that the problem with the existence of the Creator is a scientific one. You reject this possibility for purely non-scientific reasons (in the same way as you believe in the abiogenesis miracle for purely non-scientific reasons). Given the knowledge that 21st century science has provided us, we can now rule out a scientific basis for belief in the notion that everything made itself. Naturally, you’re free to carry on believing that it all made itself, naturalistically. But you don’t have a single supportive observation or experiment to justify that belief.Chris Doyle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:46 AM
7
07
46
AM
PDT
KF, it is not my contention here that the design inference is unwarranted per se. Rather I am saying that there is no methodology for inferring the supernatural. I appreciate that ID does not insist on a supernatural designer.Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
MathGrrl herself is guilty of quote mining. So. Pot-Kettle-Black. People who live in glass houses, and all that.Mung
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
Now, how do we incorporate miracles into science?
with the standard refrain we hear all the time: 'it evolved'tsmith
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
No it doesn’t Driver, but if you insist on holding onto naturalism to explain the ’cause’ of quantum actions then you lose your right to practice science;
Bell's inequality shows that there are no hidden causes. That's how the world is. I am not looking to explain quantum weirdness in terms of a local realistic cause. Nor am I looking to explain it as caused by a supernatural being. I simply accept that the world on the very small scale is not how it seems to be to us creatures who live a macro-scale existence. We looked in a new corner of the universe (well, new scale) and we saw that the world was different. That's all.Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
KF, the accusation of slander is a serious one. I challenge you to back it up. What have I said that has slandered you or anyone else?Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:28 AM
7
07
28
AM
PDT
KF, On fine tuning: I do not accept that the universe is certainly fine-tuned, but let's say for argument's sake that the universe is unequivocally fine-tuned. Then, it could have been fine-tuned according to natural laws that require fine-tuning, or even metalaws of a multiverse. Now, which is the case? The scientific approach is to look for laws. At no point should we give up looking for regularities. That would be unscientific.Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:26 AM
7
07
26
AM
PDT
Driver, you state; 'Naturalism does not insist on local realism.' No it doesn't Driver, but if you insist on holding onto naturalism to explain the 'cause' of quantum actions then you lose your right to practice science; Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place: Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that "nothing" is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency - a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what "breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.,,, the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation - Granville Sewell - audio http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012 At the 4:00 minute mark of the preceding audio, Dr. Sewell comments on the ‘transcendent’ and ‘constant’ Schroedinger’s Equation; ‘In chapter 2, I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+b^i, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician to’. i.e. the Materialist is at a complete loss to explain why this should be so, whereas the Christian Theist presupposes such ‘transcendent’ control,,, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Further note: this argument destroys the foundation of neo-darwinian naturalism as well: What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw Can atheists trust their own minds? - William Lane Craig On Alvin Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-k "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 ================= THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.phpbornagain77
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:13 AM
7
07
13
AM
PDT
Driver: With you last post, you are establishing a pattern of empty repetition. Kindly drop it and engage matters substantially, or leave the thread. If you persist in empty drumbeat repetition of such talking points in this context, I will request that you be put on moderation for disruptive and slanderous, unresponsive behaviour. Good day, GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
PS: Given your:
I am saying that there are no experiments we can do to infer the presence of gods or the occurrence of miracles. Methodological naturalism is a default position because science looks for regularities. If those regularities are posited as being suspended, as in a miracle, then how do we use science to work out that they have in fact been suspended?
. . . your response will need to specifically address the OBSERVATIONAL issues here and in their context [including the videos], on the finetuning of the cosmos. Just note that Sir Fred Hoyle, the leading scientist cited there, is a Nobel equivalent prize holder. In short, so long as chance, necessity and art/techne are are indeed regularities of the causal patterns in our world, and so long as they leave reliable empirical traces, they can be studied, and followed up fearlessly without imposition of materialist censorship that boils down to refusing to study or discuss patterns known to trace to agency in action when that is inconvenient for the a priori materialists. Further to this, as the OP pints out, the regular mechanical or statistical patterns of the natural world will be generally reliable and can be studied scientifically. The notion that theism is an inherently chaotic, irrational and anti-scientific worldview where things happen anytime, anywhere with no orderly pattern is utterly belied by the hard historical fact that it is theists who -- on their worldview driven confidence in an orderly world driven by their theism -- who founded modern science. And part of that confidence they had is that the patterns of cause and effect tracing to necessity, chance circumstances and intelligence, are real patterns with intelligible, reliable empirical effects. Have you taken time to simply read Ms Pearcey's short paper on the subject, as strongly urged? You do not sound like it. IF YOU HAVE, THEN KINDLY GIVE YOUR WELL WARRANTED REASONS FOR BEGGING TO DIFFER WITH HER AND WITH THE CONSENSUS OF THE HISTORIANS OF SCIENCE SHE REPORTS. Otherwise, if you simply indulge in cycles of empty repetition, you will be plainly guilty of irresponsibly repeating ultimately slanderous talking points, given the serious context at stake.kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
07:07 AM
7
07
07
AM
PDT
ba77, we can certainly do quantum mechanics. Naturalism does not insist on local realism. You have shown that quantum mechanics is science. Now, how do we incorporate miracles into science?Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:56 AM
6
06
56
AM
PDT
Driver you state: 'Methodological naturalism is a default position because science looks for regularities. If those regularities are posited as being suspended, as in a miracle, then how do we use science to work out that they have in fact been suspended?' So, according to your arbitrary, and very suspect, rules for how we are suppose to operate in science, we are not to investigate things like the Big Bang since they were/are highly 'irregular' events???,,, As well Driver, as to 'regularity, exactly Who do you think imposed this unchanging transcendent regularity onto creation so that we may expect to find such regularity in the first place??? ====================== 0 = 1 + e ^(i*pi) — Euler Believe it or not, the five most important numbers in mathematics are tied together, through the complex domain in Euler's number, And that points, ever so subtly but strongly, to a world of reality beyond the immediately physical. Many people resist the implications, but there the compass needle points to a transcendent reality that governs our 3D 'physical' reality. God by the Numbers - Connecting the constants Excerpt: The final number comes from theoretical mathematics. It is Euler's (pronounced "Oiler's") number: e*pi*i. This number is equal to -1, so when the formula is written e*pi*i+1 = 0, it connects the five most important constants in mathematics (e, pi, i, 0, and 1) along with three of the most important mathematical operations (addition, multiplication, and exponentiation). These five constants symbolize the four major branches of classical mathematics: arithmetic, represented by 1 and 0; algebra, by i; geometry, by pi; and analysis, by e, the base of the natural log. e*pi*i+1 = 0 has been called "the most famous of all formulas," because, as one textbook says, "It appeals equally to the mystic, the scientist, the philosopher, and the mathematician." http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/march/26.44.html?start=3 (of note; Euler's Number (equation) is more properly called Euler's Identity in math circles.) Moreover Euler’s Identity, rather than just being the most enigmatic equation in math, finds striking correlation to how our 3D reality is actually structured,,, The following picture, Bible verse, and video are very interesting since, with the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR), the universe is found to actually be a circular sphere which 'coincidentally' corresponds to the circle of pi within Euler's identity: Picture of CMBR https://webspace.utexas.edu/reyesr/SolarSystem/cmbr.jpg Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U The flatness of the ‘entire’ universe, which 'coincidentally' corresponds to the diameter of pi in Euler’s identity, is found on this following site; (of note this flatness of the universe is an extremely finely tuned condition for the universe that could have, in reality, been a multitude of different values than 'flat'): Did the Universe Hyperinflate? – Hugh Ross – April 2010 Excerpt: Perfect geometric flatness is where the space-time surface of the universe exhibits zero curvature (see figure 3). Two meaningful measurements of the universe’s curvature parameter, ½k, exist. Analysis of the 5-year database from WMAP establishes that -0.0170 < ½k < 0.0068.4 Weak gravitational lensing of distant quasars by intervening galaxies places -0.031 < ½k < 0.009.5 Both measurements confirm the universe indeed manifests zero or very close to zero geometric curvature,,, http://www.reasons.org/did-universe-hyperinflate This following video shows that the universe also has a primary characteristic of expanding/growing equally in all places,, which 'coincidentally' strongly corresponds to e in Euler's identity. e is the constant used in all sorts of equations of math for finding what the true rates of growth and decay are for any given problem trying to find as such: Every 3D Place Is Center In This Universe – 4D space/time – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/ Towards the end of the following video, Michael Denton speaks of the square root of negative 1 being necessary to understand the foundational quantum behavior of this universe. The square root of -1 is 'coincidentally' found in Euler's identity: Michael Denton – Mathematical Truths Are Transcendent And Beautiful – Square root of -1 is built into the fabric of reality – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003918" I find it extremely strange that the enigmatic Euler's identity would find such striking correlation to reality. In pi we have correlation to the 'sphere of the universe' as revealed by the Cosmic Background radiation, as well pi correlates to the finely-tuned 'geometric flatness' within the 'sphere of the universe' that has now been found. In e we have the fundamental constant that is used for ascertaining exponential growth in math that strongly correlates to the fact that space-time is 'expanding/growing equally' in all places of the universe. In the square root of -1 we have what is termed a 'imaginary number', which was first proposed to help solve equations like x2+ 1 = 0 back in the 17th century, yet now, as Michael Denton pointed out in the preceding video, it is found that the square root of -1 is required to explain the behavior of quantum mechanics in this universe. The correlation of Euler's identity, to the foundational characteristics of how this universe is constructed and operates, points overwhelmingly to a transcendent Intelligence, with a capital I, which created this universe! It should also be noted that these universal constants, pi,e, and square root -1, were at first thought by many to be completely transcendent of any material basis, to find that these transcendent constants of Euler's identity in fact 'govern' material reality, in such a foundational way, should be enough to send shivers down any mathematicians spine.bornagain77
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:53 AM
6
06
53
AM
PDT
Driver: You are already pulling away on a tangent, please come back home. This is a thread to address a claim of intellectual dishonesty made by your side. That is a serious accusation and it needs to be responsibly warranted if that is possible, and if not, it needs to be retracted with an apology. I contend, with reasons given, that it cannot be warranted, inherently and in fact on the claimed justification, and on material evidence brought to bear. In short, the issue on the table as of now, is that there appears to be a serious, false and polarising accusation that has been made. That accusation of quotemining needs to be either warranted or withdrawn with apology. So far, in this thread and previously, I have seen a lot of reiteration of an initial accusation, but no warrant, and it seems further to me there can be no warrant. Now, if you differ kindly explain and justify why. Otherwise, please leave this thread. It is on too important a matter to tolerate side tracks. Taking a liberal interpretation of your remarks above, it seems you think that the design inference is inherently unscientific, and so is irrational, warranting censorship to exclude it from science. In reply, I point out that no censorship of science that hinders it from the unfettered, empirical evidence led pursuit of the truth about our world can be warranted, and that this is exactly what Lewontin admits is the commonplace view and action of the dominant elites in science, of which he and the late Mr Sagan are or were members in good standing. If you think your implied claim can be justified, I suggest you respond, specifically on points to the case here and here on, if it is your fundamental contention that the design inference is inherently unscientific. If you cannot do so, all you are doing is repeating empty manipulative talking points, based on begging the question, i.e. there is no good warrant for imposing a priori materialism on the definition of science. (NB: It seems you need to work through as well the weak argument correctives top right this and every UD page.] Also, FYI science does not only study regularities, it studies historical patterns in the world based on observationally confirmed causal dynamics and brute given initial conditions. Indeed, that is what origins science is about. It also studies chance based behaviour that can be highly irregular. It also studies actions of intelligence where such actions leave characteristic traces. Functionally specific complex information happens to be one of these. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:52 AM
6
06
52
AM
PDT
Driver perhaps you care to 'prove' naturalism true??? You can start by explaining these following quantum teleportation experiments in purely naturalistic (energy/matter - space/time) terms: Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/postsbornagain77
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:42 AM
6
06
42
AM
PDT
Saying what the cause is is like knowing where the treasure is buried. ~ Elliott Soberbevets
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:37 AM
6
06
37
AM
PDT
tsmith, post 14, well said and succinctly put! Exactly what I've been trying to say. 21st century science is not on the side of evolutionists: so they are forced to skirt around the issues rather than confront them head on. Or, in MathGrrl's case just ignore the issues altogether... I'm still waiting for him/her to respond to a post I made about bacteria months and months ago. Nothing wrong with admitting s/he can't respond. Unfortunately, the alternative course s/he has chosen strikes me as very dishonest.Chris Doyle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:31 AM
6
06
31
AM
PDT
Given that doing science is simply a matter of making observations and conducting experiments, I can see no reason why the existence of a Supreme Being who created a privileged planet for humans capable of doing science (amongst many other things) should be a problem.
Chris, I'm not saying here that it is a philosophical problem, I am saying that there are no experiments we can do to infer the presence of gods or the occurrence of miracles. Methodological naturalism is a default position because science looks for regularities. If those regularities are posited as being suspended, as in a miracle, then how do we use science to work out that they have in fact been suspended?
science does not support the fundamental materialist claim that everything just made itself by Accident.
Here's me saying that methodological naturalism is the only known way to do science, and here's you saying that science has rejected naturalism. Both of these opinions cannot be correct. So I am curious - how exactly do you think science rejects naturalism?Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:30 AM
6
06
30
AM
PDT
’ID isn’t science’ how could miller claim to disprove behe if it wasn’t?
That's interesting logic. How can I show that milk doesn't cause earthquakes if milk causing earthquakes isn't science?Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:21 AM
6
06
21
AM
PDT
Hi Driver, Given that doing science is simply a matter of making observations and conducting experiments, I can see no reason why the existence of a Supreme Being who created a privileged planet for humans capable of doing science (amongst many other things) should be a problem. It certainly wasn’t a problem for any of the greatest scientists who ever lived: all of whom believed in the existence of a Supreme Being. Further, Lewontin’s objections are not scientific ones, they are theological ones. Therefore, those objections can only be resolved by theology: a subject that most materialists never, ever get to grips with. We live in a planned, ordered, fine-tuned universe. The Book of Scripture explains why and it is fully complemented by the Book of Nature. So instead of there being a problem between theology and science, they actually work together in harmony. Problems only arise when you reject the Book of Scripture then claim that the Book of Nature somehow wrote itself. That is because science does not support the fundamental materialist claim that everything just made itself by Accident.Chris Doyle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:19 AM
6
06
19
AM
PDT
Onlookers: MG of course manages to simply reiterate the claim, sadly, as usual. We have yet to see warrant that can justify the unjustifiable -- censorship on imposition of ideological materialism in the name of science [and BTW science can -- and save where censorship is imposed, does routinely explain on chance, necessity and intelligence, i.e the censorship is not even consistently applied]. Nor is there anything in the now added two sentences that alters in any significant way the significance of that advocacy of censorship. Instead, it is increasingly plain that the added sentences simply further document an unconscious contempt and distortion of people and their actual, fairly easily documented views. The proper name for that, especially if willfully maintained, is BIGOTRY. And, warning: once we reach a point where there is a stubborn insistence on drumbeat repetition of materialist slander talking points in the teeth of correction, we are in the territory of being willfully deceptive. [MG: on track record, this speaks directly to you.] GEM of TKI PS: TS, SADLY, YOU SEEM TO BE ALL TOO CORRECT.kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
here's some more 'quote mining' ...
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent." Provine, William B. [Professor of Biological Sciences, Cornell University], ", "Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life", Abstract of Will Provine's 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address.
"Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless--a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, there was no divine plan to guide us." (Biology: Discovering Life, by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st edition, D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; emphasis in original) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/07/ken_millers_random_and_undirec.html
evolution is nothing more than atheism posing as science. oh and for the usual rejoinder...'ID isn't science' how could miller claim to disprove behe if it wasn't?tsmith
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
06:01 AM
6
06
01
AM
PDT
would create a revolution in science.
it already has, its called ID. But then atheists have trouble seeing things that don't fit their faith.tsmith
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
05:55 AM
5
05
55
AM
PDT
the proper definition of 'quote mining' is quoting anything that darwinists don't like, and cannot respond to. So instead of dealing with the issue they attempt to demonize and discredit the poster of the quote...typical saul alinsky tactics. oh and as far as how we can do science that allows for 'gods' ask Newton or Pasteur....they did just fine.tsmith
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
05:54 AM
5
05
54
AM
PDT
Chris, I am talking about doing science, not a theological position on whether the universe was created. How can we do science that allows for gods? I don't believe anyone has an answer for that question. The problem is as Lewontin stated. If you can show that science can allow for the inference of gods then please do so. I think the methodology, if it leads to testable and falsifiable predictions, would create a revolution in science. It seems to me that overcoming the current paradigm is a real methodological challenge.Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
05:37 AM
5
05
37
AM
PDT
Joseph,
I would like some clarification on ow the part that KF originally omitted changes the context.
Please see my comments numbered 33 and 37 in the original thread.MathGrrl
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
05:37 AM
5
05
37
AM
PDT
Science is not the only branch of knowledge, Driver. However, sticking to observations and experiments, your position is basically this: We have to believe it all made itself. That position is not actually supported by science. That leaves only one alternative. It was all made. If methodological naturalism can't handle that fact then the fault lies solely with methodological naturalism, not the observations and experiments.Chris Doyle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
05:23 AM
5
05
23
AM
PDT
Hi Bot, I think you are embarrassed by Lewontin’s quote because of your attempt to redeem Lewontin by appealing to a “more reasonable interpretation by taking the broader context into account”. The initially unquoted sentences do not alter the context of the quote in any way. They certainly do not change the fundamental point: demanding an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism. Do you disagree with this demand? Put it this way, if you’re not embarrassed by it, Bot, and the initially unquoted sentences don’t actually change the context of the quote, then what are you actually trying to achieve here? Whatever your problem with Kairosfocus is, you can’t accuse him of quote-mining… only quoting: there’s a huge difference between the two.Chris Doyle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
05:18 AM
5
05
18
AM
PDT
It's all very well saying that gods can be part of science, but still no-one has an alternative to methodological naturalism. The question is how is Lewontin wrong?Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
05:18 AM
5
05
18
AM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8

Leave a Reply