Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hello World! – An Introductory Post

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Greetings all. Since I’m going to be contributing some posts here at Uncommon Descent, it’s been suggested I explain to everyone just where I’m coming from intellectually and in the context of the Intelligent Design discussion. Before I do that, I just want to express my thanks to the powers that be on this site for allowing me this opportunity – with luck it may lead to some interesting conversations on a topic I’ve enjoyed following over the years.

So if you’re at all curious of where I stand on the questions of ID, evolution, and so on… Well, just read on.

First, when it comes to questions of my intellectual background I’d like to be explicit: I’m very much an average person. My pseudonym doesn’t hide someone with important credentials, and I’m neither an academic nor a scientist. I’m simply someone who became very interested in Intelligent Design, along with the related questions of design, science, and so on years ago, and have taken part in many conversations both on here and at Telic Thoughts (another blog dedicated to teleological topics.)

Second, my views on ID are somewhat complicated. If you were to ask me if I think Intelligent Design can offer arguments, evidence and reasons to think that design exists in the natural world, I’d say yes. Now, if you’d ask me whether I think ID is “science”, I’d say no – but I’d also say that Darwinism as offered up by many (and Michael Ruse in particular) is not science either. The other side of that coin is that I’m pragmatic – if it’s “science” to argue, as many Darwinists do, that science CAN in fact detect the presence or absence of design in nature (and inevitably, they always insist that science has shown its lack), then my response is “Then detecting design in nature is science after all, therefore ID is science.” I strongly believe that the one thing many ID critics fear most is consistency: They want all positive inferences of design ruled out as non-scientific, but all negative inferences of design to be called not only scientific, but utterly true.

Third, you could classify me as a theistic evolutionist of sorts. I’m a Catholic who grew up with a Catholic family and schooling, and the result was that evolution never struck me as a problem for my faith – the impression I’ve always gotten is that it simply hasn’t been considered a major issue for quite some time, at least among many Catholics. That said, I have little patience for Darwinism – at least, I’ve had little patience for it after coming to realize that “Darwinism” was different from “evolution”, and this will be one of my focuses while I contribute at UD. Further, I simply don’t have the fiery indignation many TEs have when it comes to this topic. I got over my (largely ignorant, cultural) hostility to YECs years ago, I don’t find the suggestion of designer interventions in natural history as some kind of terrifying “science-stopper” much less obviously untrue, and I think both the natural world in general and evolution in particular bear signs of intention, design, purpose, mind, and teleology from top to bottom even if it’s granted for the sake of argument that no direct intervention took place. In other words, for me, design in the world is obvious – and questions of whether biological organisms evolved, were directly created, or otherwise strike me not as a question of whether or not design took place, but as an implied affirmation that it did take place with the “How?” being of central concern.

Fourth, my interest in ID is not purely or even largely religious. And by that I mean, if tomorrow it were demonstrated to me that Christianity was false, my interest in ID would remain. I think it’s to ID’s credit that its major proponents have repeatedly stressed that ID may allow one to infer, even strongly infer, a mind or teleology being responsible for what we see in the natural world – but that this mind is not necessarily the specific God of Christianity, or may not even be a ‘god’ at all (though the particularities of that question are dicey.) In fact, I think ID as a movement would benefit by stressing this point further – I feel that many otherwise agnostic people would find the broad inferences, questions, and ideas in the ID ‘big tent’ to at least be worthy of serious consideration. In some ways, I feel this is an eventuality regardless.

In the near future, I hope to post about a wide variety of ID-related topics – from giving my own take on why Thomists should support ID, why agnostics should support ID, the mistakes some prominent ID critics and/or TEs make, the ideas of some lesser-known ID-sympathetic people, and more.

I think that wraps things up for now. So a belated Merry Christmas to you all, and an early Happy New Year.

Comments
Null Welcome aboard, and a happy new year to you too. I think your thought will be enriching, as it gives a further perspective, which seems to be fairly close to what I think the folks over at Telic Thoughts tend to think. I want to suggest a working definition of science as it should try to be, as a thought or two for development of a sounder epistemology of origins-related science. As you know, ever sinve Lyell and Darwin, the issue of projecting from the present to the past has been a crucial issue in science and its definition. Feyerabend ended up arguing that in effect there is no one size fits all definition that is possible for all sciences, and he is plainly right. So we have to proceed on a common sense, family resemblance, what is reasonable if we are to move towards learning the truth about our world as it now is and as it was in the past of origins. Here is my nearest thing to a global definition that is generic, and targets what science should strive to be like (note the onward discussion in light of Newton's work and its backdrop): _________________ >> science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on: a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical -- real-world, on the ground -- observations and measurements, b: inference to best current -- thus, always provisional -- abductive explanation of the observed facts, c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein's favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments], d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and, e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, "the informed" is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.) As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world. >> __________________ Okay, I trust that helps. I should note that design is something we understand as those who live as designers in a world where we observe other designers. So, on that experience, we notice that we can make a definition of a certain class of cause:
DESIGN = intentionally (and intelligently -- if it is to work!) directed configuration; and, by extension, the result of such art.
We can also define intelligence on our experience and observation:
[From UD glossary:] Intelligence – Wikipedia aptly and succinctly defines: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.”
Now, we also observe that things which begin or are otherwise contingent have causes, not least factors that are necessary: if absent, they block the effect, if present they enable (but do not force -- necessity is not sufficiency) the effect. Think about the triangle factors for a fire: oxidiser, fuel and heat are each necessary and jointly sufficient (taking on board chain reaction in the definition of fuel). One useful classification is that causal factors come in the flavours: necessity, chance, design. Where and/or is possible. But, we may discern empirically observable signs -- as has been frequently pointed out at UD: mechanical necessity is low contingency, high contingncy under similar starting conditions is either chance or design. Chance shows itself in statistical patterns of outcomes reflecting probability distributions of various kinds. This is a common fact of life in industry where statistically based process control is now a key part of any quality management programme. Design shows itself through things connected to intentionally directed contingency, and can be reliably distinguished from chance when the outcomes we see are going to be so far removed from the overwhelming clusters of configurations that it is unreasonable to infer to chance as best explanation; unless we can rule out the possibility of a designer. For instance FSCI is a case in point as has been commonly discussed at UD. Complex, functional, coded linguistic information is another reliable sign of design. Complex, purposeful, functional network organization is another. There are more. All of these are reliable based on numerous cases where we observe the causal process, and see that the only known directly observed factual cause of such is design. So such things are empirically credible signs of design. Of course, in principle, chance can imitate anything whatsoever. but if we let the chance hyp get out of hand, it undermines reasoning, as it for instance would be equally arguable that every dropped object we saw falling was by chance not mechanical necessity, and the same for the orbits of planets etc. But, there comes a point where it does not make sense to think in these terms, and if we see a reliable pattern we infer to law not chance. Just so, we see a reliable pattern on design and its signs. So we have a perfect epistemic right to infer to design on signs, and to the onward existence of a relevant designer at the time of origin of said objects with signs. The only reason this is controversial is that there is an established orthodoxy that is hostile to the idea that life shows signs of being designed. Well, can you give me an observed case of a complex digitally coded system or an algorithm or a program or data structure spontaneously originating by chance plus necessity without intelligent configuration? Of functionally specific complex information and associated effecting functional organisation similarly occurring by undirected chance and necessity, under our observation? The answers are obvious from the rebuttal strategies used by the defenders of the reigning orthodoxy: they have no facts so they are pounding on their institutional power to censor thinking on the subject. They are even trying to redefine science on evolutionary materialistic premises, however camouflaged under sales names and slogans. So, the actual balance on the merits is plain enough. And if the work of Lyell et al and Darwin et al and successors is accepted as science -- even, paradigmatic science, inference to design on signs is also science by close family resemblance. Null, welcome aboard, again! Happy new year to all. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 30, 2010
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So, the idea that God is a rational being whose creation (nature) was therefore accessible to rational minds is a scientific hypothesis that has been getting supported like crazy for centuries now? I didn't say that all hypotheses are capable of scientific enquiry. This particular one does not strike me as scientific. In fact it is quite hard to determine exactly what it means. Then again, you’ve got evidence all over the place because you’re only limited by whatever capabilities and intentions you think up for the designer in question, and you’ve placed no restraints on this. I am not the one posing a design hypothesis. I am only placing minimal restrictions on what counts as a scientific hypothesis with respect to design. Whether a particular hypothesis is justified by the evidence is another question. Alright. And if I propose a designer – say, a computer programmer who is running a simulation of our world – and suggest that our simulation only started 6000 years ago, but the simulation began with an Omphalos Hypothesis style setup.. this is ‘doing science’? I am afraid I know very little about the Omphalos Hypothesis. However, I think the idea is that the world was created 6000 years ago to look exactly as though it were 4 billions years old. This seems to say very little about the motives and limitations of the computer programmer. I think this little discussion has run its course - thanksmarkf
December 30, 2010
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markf, In the same way a proposal that life is designed by a specific designer can be subject to scientific enquiry. However, just making that proposal is not itself scientific. It is then necessary to gather appropriate evidence (on the limes I suggest above). So, the idea that God is a rational being whose creation (nature) was therefore accessible to rational minds is a scientific hypothesis that has been getting supported like crazy for centuries now? On that view every advance of science is just more evidence in the pile for God. (I think CS Peirce had a philosophical argument along these lines.) Then again, you've got evidence all over the place because you're only limited by whatever capabilities and intentions you think up for the designer in question, and you've placed no restraints on this. This hypothesis is capable of scientific enquiry. It is rapidly and easily shown to be scientifically false. To then continue to believe that proposal is not doing science. Alright. And if I propose a designer - say, a computer programmer who is running a simulation of our world - and suggest that our simulation only started 6000 years ago, but the simulation began with an Omphalos Hypothesis style setup.. this is 'doing science'?nullasalus
December 30, 2010
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In which case everyone from the most ardent YECs to the most fervent positive atheists to full-blown solipsists and everyone in between are, in fact, ‘doing science’ or something close to it, so long as they meet those criteria. I am sorry. I am not being clear. There is a difference between making a hypothesis that can be the subject of science and doing science. I can propose that the earth is flat. This hypothesis is capable of scientific enquiry. It is rapidly and easily shown to be scientifically false. To then continue to believe that proposal is not doing science. In the same way a proposal that life is designed by a specific designer can be subject to scientific enquiry. However, just making that proposal is not itself scientific. It is then necessary to gather appropriate evidence (on the limes I suggest above).markf
December 30, 2010
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markf, It has the potential to be science although it does not have the rigour and generality that I would call science. Really? So if I posit a designer with particular capabilities (say, omnipotence and omniscience), and particular intentions, I am engaging in a kind of protoscience that has the potential to become science, according to you? In principle a hypothesis that X designed life subject to limitations l1 to ln and with motives m1 to mn can be investigated scientifically. You can ask scientific questions such as: Being able to 'ask scientific questions' about something is a ridiculously low bar to set. I can ask at least some superficially scientific questions about just about any philosophical topic, but that doesn't mean that panpsychism is now science or protoscience (unless science just means 'reasoning, somehow' at this point.) So no, this isn't too helpful. As near as I can tell, you think that so long as someone assumes something, anything, about the intentions and capabilities of a hypothetical designer, they can infer design or its lack, and that these inferences are either science or almost-science. In which case everyone from the most ardent YECs to the most fervent positive atheists to full-blown solipsists and everyone in between are, in fact, 'doing science' or something close to it, so long as they meet those criteria. Interesting take on science.nullasalus
December 30, 2010
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#10 Nullasalus Sorry - I am bit confused about what you are claiming. But I will tackle your request: ...Darwinists were ‘probably subconsciously thinking’ when they said what they did, and how they were relying on assumptions about the capabilities and intentions of the designer. I asked you if this is science. So, is it? Is it not? It has the potential to be science although it does not have the rigour and generality that I would call science. In principle a hypothesis that X designed life subject to limitations l1 to ln and with motives m1 to mn can be investigated scientifically. You can ask scientific questions such as: * does this feature of life conform to the motives * how could the designer have implemented this feature given its limitations Does this help?markf
December 30, 2010
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markf, I thought a key principle of ID was that you could somehow detect design independent of any knowledge about the designer. Is ID science? I stated my position on this question in my post - you're the one who told me what Darwinists were 'probably subconsciously thinking' when they said what they did, and how they were relying on assumptions about the capabilities and intentions of the designer. I asked you if this is science. So, is it? Is it not? If you want to put forward a hypothesis about a specific designer with known limitations and motives then yes this hypothesis can be tackled in a scientific way. Have you got one? "In a scientific way"? Kind-of scientifically? Science, now with 95% less empirical restraints? Again, I outlined my views on ID and science. You came in and started talking about what Darwinists and biologists were probably subconsciously thinking when they talked about what was and wasn't designed in nature - namely, that you can detect design so long as you just assume the capabilities and intentions of a designer. So, is that science? Is design-detection science? Not science? Is it science if design's lack is "found" this way, but not if design's presence is? Ya gots me curious. Let's hear the answers.nullasalus
December 30, 2010
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#6 vj I don't quite point of your comment about the malaria parasite. Whatever it may have been in the past, it is most certainly bad news for humans at the moment. Are you denying that life has produced all sorts of nasty things throughout human history (and before for other species)?markf
December 30, 2010
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#7 nullasalus I thought a key principle of ID was that you could somehow detect design independent of any knowledge about the designer. If you want to put forward a hypothesis about a specific designer with known limitations and motives then yes this hypothesis can be tackled in a scientific way. Have you got one?markf
December 30, 2010
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markf, I have always held that it is possible to detect the absence of presence of design if you make some assumptions about the motives and abilities of the designer. So, what - so long as I assume motives and abilities of any kind for any reason, and what I'm looking at either reflects or fails to reflect the reasonable result of those motives and abilities, I have in fact detected the presence or lack of design in nature? It's really that easy? And best of all, this is science in action? I think this is what most Darwinists (aka biologists) are subconsciously assuming when they argue, for example, that nature is not designed because no competent designer would have designed the Panda’s thumb and no benevolent designer the malaria parasite. Biologists != Darwinists. What's more, I don't necessarily care what a Darwinist or a biologist dreams up and assumes about the world and nature. The question is: Is this science? If it's science in action for a Darwinist to make assumptions about the abilities and motives of a designer and detect design's presence or lack in nature, then it's science in action for an ID proponent or anyone else to do the same. Take that tack and congratulations, you're now an ID proponent yourself. If you take the tack that well, no, it's not science (Maybe "It's an argument I believe and I think is reasonable, but it's still not science"), then you've shut out ID from the 'science' arena at the cost of shutting out quite a lot of Darwinists too. Every atheist who wants to argue science has shown that the nature is not designed, from the realms of biology to cosmology to otherwise, is stopped in their tracks. And insofar as Darwinism is defined as a belief that neither evolution nor its products are intended, guided, etc - and many define Darwinism precisely this way - Darwinism is not science. At least, these are the choices in play if someone is consistent. Of course, there's a solution to that problem: Just don't be consistent. I don't think much of it, but hey, that hasn't stopped it from being a popular move.nullasalus
December 30, 2010
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Hi nullasalus, Congratulations on your first post. I enjoyed reading it, and I look forward to future posts. markf, Regarding your claim that "no benevolent designer the malaria parasite," you might like to read this recent post by the National Science Foundation at http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=117259 . It appears that modern malaria parasites began to spread to various mammals, birds and reptiles about 16 million years ago. Malaria parasites may jump to new, unrelated hosts at any time, decoupling their evolution from that of their hosts. The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago - about the time when humans first appeared. However, according to Dr. Robert Ricklefs, one of the biologists who conducted the recent research into the origin of the malaria parasite, "Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history, becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations." Hope that helps.vjtorley
December 30, 2010
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to argue, as many Darwinists do, that science CAN in fact detect the presence or absence of design in nature (and inevitably, they always insist that science has shown its lack), then my response is “Then detecting design in nature is science after all, therefore ID is science.” I strongly believe that the one thing many ID critics fear most is consistency: They want all positive inferences of design ruled out as non-scientific, but all negative inferences of design to be called not only scientific, but utterly true. I have always held that it is possible to detect the absence of presence of design if you make some assumptions about the motives and abilities of the designer. I think this is what most Darwinists (aka biologists) are subconsciously assuming when they argue, for example, that nature is not designed because no competent designer would have designed the Panda's thumb and no benevolent designer the malaria parasite. If you don't make any assumptions about the designer then the design hypothesis becomes as meaningful as the hypothesis that "life developed through chance".markf
December 29, 2010
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Thanks for the welcomes all. I look forward to the conversation. SCheesman, the name is from latin. Nulla Salus.nullasalus
December 29, 2010
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Welcome! I've always noticed you approach things a little bit differently than most here, and it's good to have different perspectives. Now, perhaps I'm missing the obvious, but what's the etymology of "nullasalus"? I've never been able to figure that out.SCheesman
December 29, 2010
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I enjoyed your introductory column, nullasalus, as I've enjoyed the comments you've posted here over the years. I appreciate your determination to avoid partisan labels and to look for the truth wherever it lies. I'm particularly interested in hearing you develop your thoughts on a "lower case te" -- a theistic evolutionism which is compatible with design insights and avoids the dogmatic pitfalls of the quasi-culture-war movement we've unfortunately come to know as upper-case TE. I look forward to whatever you may write for us in the future, and I'll be one of your regular readers. T.Timaeus
December 29, 2010
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I strongly believe that the one thing many ID critics fear most is consistency: They want all positive inferences of design ruled out as non-scientific, but all negative inferences of design to be called not only scientific, but utterly true. You've hit the nail on the head. On the topic of Hello World!, here's my UD contribution on that subject: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/writing-computer-programs-by-random-mutation-and-natural-selection/ Design in living systems is simply obvious, but no one knows how it was instantiated. I find it interesting that so many people, with genuinely inquisitive minds, but from widely diverse backgrounds, are attracted to ID. Perhaps the explanation is that ID makes sense, and a design inference is inescapable if one is not blinded to obvious truth. I'm a former atheist (ID was a major factor in my abandonment of that worldview). David Berlinski is a secular Jew and a friend of ID, who once told me that he cannot pray. Logic and evidence will eventually prevail, but the battle will be won with much difficulty and sacrifice, because the enemy has so much to lose and is so entrenched. P.S.: I enjoy your UD contributions, which are always eloquent, thoughtful, and well-written.GilDodgen
December 29, 2010
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