Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hello World! – An Introductory Post

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Greetings all. Since I’m going to be contributing some posts here at Uncommon Descent, it’s been suggested I explain to everyone just where I’m coming from intellectually and in the context of the Intelligent Design discussion. Before I do that, I just want to express my thanks to the powers that be on this site for allowing me this opportunity – with luck it may lead to some interesting conversations on a topic I’ve enjoyed following over the years.

So if you’re at all curious of where I stand on the questions of ID, evolution, and so on… Well, just read on.

First, when it comes to questions of my intellectual background I’d like to be explicit: I’m very much an average person. My pseudonym doesn’t hide someone with important credentials, and I’m neither an academic nor a scientist. I’m simply someone who became very interested in Intelligent Design, along with the related questions of design, science, and so on years ago, and have taken part in many conversations both on here and at Telic Thoughts (another blog dedicated to teleological topics.)

Second, my views on ID are somewhat complicated. If you were to ask me if I think Intelligent Design can offer arguments, evidence and reasons to think that design exists in the natural world, I’d say yes. Now, if you’d ask me whether I think ID is “science”, I’d say no – but I’d also say that Darwinism as offered up by many (and Michael Ruse in particular) is not science either. The other side of that coin is that I’m pragmatic – if it’s “science” to argue, as many Darwinists do, that science CAN in fact detect the presence or absence of design in nature (and inevitably, they always insist that science has shown its lack), then my response is “Then detecting design in nature is science after all, therefore ID is science.” I strongly believe that the one thing many ID critics fear most is consistency: They want all positive inferences of design ruled out as non-scientific, but all negative inferences of design to be called not only scientific, but utterly true.

Third, you could classify me as a theistic evolutionist of sorts. I’m a Catholic who grew up with a Catholic family and schooling, and the result was that evolution never struck me as a problem for my faith – the impression I’ve always gotten is that it simply hasn’t been considered a major issue for quite some time, at least among many Catholics. That said, I have little patience for Darwinism – at least, I’ve had little patience for it after coming to realize that “Darwinism” was different from “evolution”, and this will be one of my focuses while I contribute at UD. Further, I simply don’t have the fiery indignation many TEs have when it comes to this topic. I got over my (largely ignorant, cultural) hostility to YECs years ago, I don’t find the suggestion of designer interventions in natural history as some kind of terrifying “science-stopper” much less obviously untrue, and I think both the natural world in general and evolution in particular bear signs of intention, design, purpose, mind, and teleology from top to bottom even if it’s granted for the sake of argument that no direct intervention took place. In other words, for me, design in the world is obvious – and questions of whether biological organisms evolved, were directly created, or otherwise strike me not as a question of whether or not design took place, but as an implied affirmation that it did take place with the “How?” being of central concern.

Fourth, my interest in ID is not purely or even largely religious. And by that I mean, if tomorrow it were demonstrated to me that Christianity was false, my interest in ID would remain. I think it’s to ID’s credit that its major proponents have repeatedly stressed that ID may allow one to infer, even strongly infer, a mind or teleology being responsible for what we see in the natural world – but that this mind is not necessarily the specific God of Christianity, or may not even be a ‘god’ at all (though the particularities of that question are dicey.) In fact, I think ID as a movement would benefit by stressing this point further – I feel that many otherwise agnostic people would find the broad inferences, questions, and ideas in the ID ‘big tent’ to at least be worthy of serious consideration. In some ways, I feel this is an eventuality regardless.

In the near future, I hope to post about a wide variety of ID-related topics – from giving my own take on why Thomists should support ID, why agnostics should support ID, the mistakes some prominent ID critics and/or TEs make, the ideas of some lesser-known ID-sympathetic people, and more.

I think that wraps things up for now. So a belated Merry Christmas to you all, and an early Happy New Year.

Comments
kairosfocus, Going further,the more modern versions of the theory still imply the came claim; a claim that darwinian theories account for macro-level biodiversity. Even declaring it a “fact.” Darwinism requires multiple commitments, sure - some scientific, some not. But if the 'whole package' requires a metaphysical commitment, a religious commitment beyond the demonstration of the laboratory, then science it is not. That said, 'Darwinism' has been reworked so many times to include so much more than Darwin envisioned and intended that I sometimes wonder what really remains of it as a theory. Call it a Ship of Theseus style problem - how many times can a theory be amended before it's not the same theory anymore? Really, the one non-negotiable aspect seems to be... pretty much what Ruse said. 'Whatever did it, it happened without intention or guidance or design or foresight of any sort.' Further, Ruse did say explicitly what I'm saying he did re: Darwinism, and on Biologos no less. He's not alone in his view either. Frankly, I'm surprised more people aren't stunned by his move. He made it very explicit. Next, what I have pointed out is that random processes are a matter of indifference to theism as such. There is no good argument that the creator is locked into not using real randomness, instead of some species of pseudorandom process. Nor does use of randomness lock God our of intervening is he has reason to. It depends on what you're saying. Are you denying God's omniscience and omnipotence? If so, that's fine - I disagree over that point, of course, and I'd further disagree that there's no good argument for God's omniscience or omnipotence. And if someone insists that either this or that particular part of nature, or some whole class of events in nature, is utterly unguided and lacking intention, etc, then I'll note that no good argument exists to demonstrate that claim. We'd be at a metaphysical and philosophical impasse. That said, absolutely ID itself doesn't demand any creator be omniscient or omnipotent or even God - far from it. The “otherwise random” aspect was plainly intended to clear the deck for God to intervene, i.e. the situation was credibly not manipulable by men. But as I said earlier, that method doesn't require that on all those other times God was unaware of the 'random' outcomes, or not preordaining them, etc. The context drives that situation. There is no reason why a lump of radioactive material should not be undergoing a truly random process, nor forbidding an intervention if that is warranted. And this depends on what 'truly random' means. Random, as in not foreseen or preordained by any mind, God included? I can think of plenty of reasons to deny that, and certainly no way to demonstrate it is in fact the case. Nor does asserting that a mind did foresee or preordain (or even interventionally causes, at each and every event) the events taking place in a radioactive lump require that, say.. the pattern that shows up won't be such-and-such reliably overtime (a nice, qualified 'random' distribution, say.) And again, going back to Ruse, I think this is an important and relevant point. What's more, Dembski himself seems to agree that ID doesn't require that there is 'true' randomness in the world (as in, events and outcomes utterly unforeseen by anyone, God included.): For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere. Fair enough. ID has no beef with this. As I’ve said (till the cows come home, though Thomist critics never seem to get it), the explanatory filter has no way or ruling out false negatives (attributions of non-design that in fact are designed).nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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Null: First, I am first and foremost speaking of Darwin's close to Origin in Ch 15, where he specifically says that the animals and plants etc on a tangled streamside bank are the product of descent with modification on his theory's premises, from one or a few original ancestral forms. he is claiming a SCIENTIFIC result, not a metaphysical imposition. Going further,the more modern versions of the theory still imply the came claim; a claim that darwinian theories account for macro-level biodiversity. Even declaring it a "fact." I am saying that on the evidence, that claim is unsupported by evidence, which instead strongly points to design; once you look at the issue of information origination. Next, what I have pointed out is that random processes are a matter of indifference to theism as such. There is no good argument that the creator is locked into not using real randomness, instead of some species of pseudorandom process. Nor does use of randomness lock God our of intervening is he has reason to. Indeed, the Israelites of old -- who I am sure probably had those who played at games of chance and intuitively understood randomness in such games -- specifically prayed for God's intervention in the situations where they used otherwise random processes for guidance; cf the drawing lots to choose the replacement for Judas in the Upper Room. The "otherwise random" aspect was plainly intended to clear the deck for God to intervene, i.e. the situation was credibly not manipulable by men. So, there is room aplenty for a both and view. There is no reason why a lump of radioactive material should not be undergoing a truly random process, nor forbidding an intervention if that is warranted. Just as, as a rule, dead men do not get up, walk away and join their friends for supper, much less cook breakfast for them. But that normal pattern opens the way to understand that the case where that credibly happened -- on 500 witnesses -- is something beyond the ordinary course of nature. And that was recognised as such from the outset, that is why so many -- not just Thomas -- were initially dubious. And, as to the notion that chance or random outcomes are cause-less, that is based on a serious and widespread misunderstanding of cause, and beyond that of the logic of implication which is closely tied to that. Specifically, anything that begins or may cease etc is contingent on external factors, i.e. causes. Such include not just sufficient factors that make it that something WILL occur, but necessary ones that can -- if absent -- block it from occurring. [Take away air or other oxidser, and no fire, e.g.] When we see a situation with a random pattern, there are always necessary factors at work, e.g at crude level, no die, no tossing to tumble to read a 6. no surface to rest on, and no reading either, etc. Similarly, there have to be sufficient factors to set up a situation where there is a statistical distribution of possible outcomes. Something had to come together in a sufficient cluster for he die to be tossed, tumble and settle to read 6. And under similar circumstances, it can read 1, 2, 3,4, 5,6 but not 9 or 54. So, chance and randomness are not equivalent to causeless. Once there are necessary factors, that is so, and once the event is an effect that happens now and not before -- it has a beginning -- it is necessarily caused. That takes in our whole cosmos, which credibly had a beginning. One that is so organised at a finely balanced operating point for c-chemistry cell based life that it points to design as its most credible cause. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 31, 2010
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kairosfocus, There is no good reason to reject random processes as a part of nature, as an aspect of being a theist. So, we can afford to be indifferent on this matter. It depends on the sort of theist and the sort of randomness being discussed, doesn't it? Just by virtue of admitting to an omniscient, omnipotent God, it seems obvious to me that any talk of 'random' has to be bracketed. Stephen Barr, to his credit, admits this outright. But then Barr makes the distinction between the model and the mind of God. Second, we can see that chance and statistical randomness and associated distributions, on reasonable principles, will not be able to account for the origins of the sort of functionally specific, complex organisation we see, whether in putting the cosmos at a — notice, all I am pointing to is local finetuning — finely balanced operating point that supports life, or for the functional, complex organisation of cell based life. But I'm not really disagreeing with that. I'm qualifying what 'chance' means, what 'randomness' means, but what I'm qualifying does nothing to get in the way of ID inferences generally, or the sort of ID inferences you're particularly talking about. On the flipside, talking about 'chance' or 'randomness' in a way stronger than is warranted doesn't bolster the ID case and is not necessary generally, so I see no reason to make the move. Unless that's someone's personal belief - fair enough, then - but that's only going to go so far. And, from the outset, darwinian theory was intended to account for precisely this, and is popularly promoted as such. I agree but disagree. I keep referencing him - what can I say, he's useful here - but when Michael Ruse defended Darwinism over on Biologos, the sort of "Darwinism" he was talking about beautifully demonstrated what I think is the heart and soul and engine of Darwinism: Metaphysical commitments on claims science not only hasn't demonstrate, but could never hope to demonstrate. If you believe in a God who is outside of time and therefore knew what the results of evolution would be, according to Ruse, a Darwinist you ain't. If you believe God intervenes at the quantum level, a Darwinist you ain't. Heck, he seems ready to kick Conway Morris and even Dawkins out of the Darwinism club on the grounds that they both have ideas which 'impart directionality to evolution', which he sees as a 'violation of the spirit of Darwinism'. Jerry Coyne plays this exact same game, where the fact that 40% or so of Americans believe in evolution isn't a cause of celebration for him (Yay, they accept evolution!) but horror, because said 40% believes evolution was guided by God. He explicitly suggests this is a denial of Darwinism as Darwin offered it, and as most scientists offer it. But my reply is that if this is a commitment of Darwinism, this is (as Cornelius Hunter loves to discuss) religion and metaphysics - not science - through and through. It's not even open to demonstration by experiment or in the laboratory. The best that could be hoped for is to say that science is silent on that question of guidance and direction and foresight in either direction - but to take that stance is to cut off over 100 years of atheist apologetics at the knees. Hence that resistance to doing so, and the hope of maintaining an obvious double standard. In short, nature — in both the biological and physical sides — strongly points to intentionally directed configuration as a decisive causal factor. I agree, in way after way.nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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The die tossed against the wall then tumbling to the table model shows how a process can be random in the large, but open to the miraculous: since a tiny shift makes all the difference, a tiny nudge below our ability to discern would be effective in controlling the particular outcome without committing to so controlling all stochastically distributed processes directly. Well, let me offer something back at you. Every event we see in nature can be the result of an intention, or guidance, or foreordination, etc, but even if this were the case we still could and would be able to make practical models of reliable patterns (The odds of getting a 6 on a die roll is 1 in 6 for all practical purposes), and we can practically determine when a result doesn't line up with what we normally expect of those patterns (If there's an explosion at the Scrabble factory, we expect the tiles to fall in a typical pattern. But they fell in a pattern that spelled out the entirety of Job 38, saying "Well, that pattern was just as likely as any other, there's nothing particularly unusual about this at all" isn't going to cut it.)nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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Null: My first point is that one needs not take any strong view against the reality of randomness to be a serious theist or design thinker. There is no good reason to reject random processes as a part of nature, as an aspect of being a theist. So, we can afford to be indifferent on this matter. Second, we can see that chance and statistical randomness and associated distributions, on reasonable principles, will not be able to account for the origins of the sort of functionally specific, complex organisation we see, whether in putting the cosmos at a -- notice, all I am pointing to is local finetuning -- finely balanced operating point that supports life, or for the functional, complex organisation of cell based life. Instead these things are replete with empirically well supported reliable signs of intentional, intelligent and deeply knowledgeable, skilled configuration. That is design. The chance plus necessity only evolutionary materialistic school of thought is therefore inferior on empirically based grounds. Specifically, canonical neo-darwinian thought and its extensions, supplements etc, fail to account for origin of such life, or for body plan level biodiversity. The phenomena are on empirically reliable signs best explained on design. So, while such schools are institutionally dominant, they are on very shaky empirical ground. Does this mean that there was not evolutionary development in the biological world? No, the empirically warranted descent with modification out there can only account for minor changes. Does this mean there was no common descent of life? No, it does mean that the means by which life was transformed across body plans was intelligently directed, on the evidence. That is darwinian macroevolution -- despite its institutional dominance -- is not empirically credible; on information and functional system organisation origination challenges (a subject where biologists as such: biologists, do not hold particularly strong expertise). And, from the outset, darwinian theory was intended to account for precisely this, and is popularly promoted as such. Worse, the credibility of powerful sectors of the academy is locked into this being an adequate account for life, and has locked in an implicit evolutionary materialism to back it up, resorting to force on occasion to preserve that dominance. In short, nature -- in both the biological and physical sides -- strongly points to intentionally directed configuration as a decisive causal factor. To design. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 31, 2010
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kairosfocus, Can you show me that a fair — unloaded — die tossed say 1,000 times is specifically guided as to outcomes in such a way that we see say 6 [etc] about 1/6 of the time? That depends on what you mean by show. If I establish the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent God (via the Five Ways, via the ontological argument, via anything else), will that suffice as showing? Or would that prove that no die roll is truly 'fair'? If the latter, then the question is problematic from the outset. is the particular outcome preplanned from the foundation of the cosmos or whatever? Or, is there room for randomness to play out as a part of the general order of nature; e.g consider the physical nature of temperature as a metric of the avg random energy per degree of freedom of the particles in sensible bodies? Good questions. But are you asking me in a practical sense ("Can I model as if...?") or a reality sense ("Is it really and truly the case...?")? In the former sense, sure - but a practical model is a practical model, with more limited goals and qualifications. In the latter case we're dealing with questions of ultimate reality - we're not asking if we can model-as-if, but if our models and all the assumptions we make with our models are true as a matter of fact. And that requires getting the answers to some difficult, complicated questions. In the case of the zener diode feeding a pseudorandom number generator, the truly random — quantum — noise injection from the Zener pushes the deterministic stream of the counter circuit to generate outputs that are truly random. But whether quantum results are "truly random" - if you mean absolutely and utterly unguided - is itself an open question. Some people have ideas, even models, but in the respect I'm asking the question remains open. Even moreso, because just what's 'happening' at the quantum level is, even in a practical model sense, a lot more unusual than in the die rolls. So an inference to design is the empirically best warranted explanation. You may object that this is not an absolute proof, but the answer is that very very few things are subject to such proof, so to object to warrant by inference to best explanation is selectively hyperskeptical. I'm not objecting to an inference to design - quite the opposite actually. I don't even believe you need to talk about "random" or "chance" in any strong sense to make the inferences to the particular kind of design you wish to make. Perhaps there is a possibility for miracles a la the ancient Hebrew praxis of seeking guidance through what would otherwise be random, but even that depends on the point that the outcomes are out of human control and absent a miracle would be random. It depends on what's meant by 'random' here. "Uncorrelated with respect to..."? Sure, but a wholly intentional, purposeful event can be typically uncorrelated to a particular outcome generally, but become so in a specific instance.nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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PS: Maybe some thoughts may help build a bridge: 1] The die tossed against the wall then tumbling to the table model shows how a process can be random in the large, but open to the miraculous: since a tiny shift makes all the difference, a tiny nudge below our ability to discern would be effective in controlling the particular outcome without committing to so controlling all stochastically distributed processes directly. 2] On the mind-body problem (yes, there is a link), a similar point obtains: it is possible,maybe even plausible at some level that quantum-level influences on neural networks in the brain are an interface for the conscious mind. If something like that is so, design would subtly but decisively intervene into the physical world, in a way that makes for intentionally controlled contingency, without committing to all contingencies being intentionally controlled. 3] In short, I am pointing out that there is room for both intent and chance, with room that they can have diverse and empirically detectable characteristics.kairosfocus
December 31, 2010
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Null: Can you show me that a fair -- unloaded -- die tossed say 1,000 times is specifically guided as to outcomes in such a way that we see say 6 [etc] about 1/6 of the time? is the particular outcome preplanned from the foundation of the cosmos or whatever? Or, is there room for randomness to play out as a part of the general order of nature; e.g consider the physical nature of temperature as a metric of the avg random energy per degree of freedom of the particles in sensible bodies? My earlier point on "for practical purposes" has to do with that the die exhibits sensitive dependence on initial dynamical conditions, so that through un-correlated collisions with walls and tables -- gaming houses in Las Vegas now specify tossing against a textured [pyranmidical studs] wall and falling to the table, on the 8 corners and 12 edges, there is an unpredictability on outcomes through clashing uncorrelated dynamical streams. Thus through the accident of particular impacts of clashing uncorrelated dynamical streams and that non-linearity that vastly amplifies tiny differences in otherwise substantially similar initial setups, we do get effective random outcomes from the die. Rather like my earlier remarks on how a phone book, by being fed through an uncorrelated stream of events, can be used to generate quite good enough random numbers, even though the phone lines and the directory ordering are in fact deterministic; as the phone company can vouch. In the case of the zener diode feeding a pseudorandom number generator, the truly random -- quantum -- noise injection from the Zener pushes the deterministic stream of the counter circuit to generate outputs that are truly random. In each of these cases, we can reasonably say that we see a chance outcome, which could in principle lead on to results that show high contingency of statistically random character. I am not at all saying that randomness and chance imply the world as a whole lacks purpose or meaning, or that chance can so reasonably explain what we see that we can credibly prefer chance + necessity to design. On the contrary, I point out that the resources of he cosmos on chance + necessity -- on the statistical properties -- would not reasonably land us in islands of function. So an inference to design is the empirically best warranted explanation. You may object that this is not an absolute proof, but the answer is that very very few things are subject to such proof, so to object to warrant by inference to best explanation is selectively hyperskeptical. I would also hold that when we look on quantum events that are random per the relevant analysis [e.g radioactive decay and the decay constant thus half life], that pattern is random. Same, for the distribution of energies and speeds etc of particles in bodies with a temperature. No specific direction can reasonably be assigned to these outcomes as a general rule. Perhaps there is a possibility for miracles a la the ancient Hebrew praxis of seeking guidance through what would otherwise be random, but even that depends on the point that the outcomes are out of human control and absent a miracle would be random. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 31, 2010
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kairosfocus, I speak in the direct and narrow sense of how a fair, tossed die settles in a distribution with odds generally 1 in 6. There may well be a deeper purpose in such a phenomenon, indeed even the purpose of playing a game is a purpose for such randomness, but the immediate process is for all practical purposes chance with no discernible direction to the outcomes. Well, 'practical purposes' is the thing. If you want to say that distributions tend to be of this general pattern, and that if such a pattern tends to hold over time we can have expectations of X, Y, and Z, that's fine. All I've questioned is the claim that the particular and real-world results in a stochastic mechanism take place without intention, purpose, etc. That positive claim of lack. "Not discernible" is a qualification that stresses the minds of those involved with making the judgment, which is a different story.nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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markf, Without some other reason for supposing God had that motive and without some statement about the mechanisms and limitations they are obviously unsatisfactory. Funny. Earlier you said: I have always held that it is possible to detect the absence of presence of design if you make some assumptions about the motives and abilities of the designer. So, when it's an example you like (God is supposed to be benevolent and no benevolent God would allow malaria and if He's omnipotent He could forbid malaria but He didn't so obviously nature isn't designed), assumption is allowed and the whole thing is scientific. But when it's an assumption you don't like - one that yields a positive inference - suddenly assumptions are unfair and now we need *reasons* for our assumptions? Of course, reasons could be supplied for these posits - theological, philosophical, even empirical - but suddenly the standards change depending on what the idea is and what sort of inference it's yielding. This is a pretty shallow game. If demanding convincing reasons for what we suppose about the designer is required, you're again wiping the field out, and out goes every inference of non-design because every assumption that yields such an inference can be questioned. (That's why they're assumptions - something taken to be true without actual demonstration.) As I said earlier, consistency is your greatest enemy here - but you're going to have to eventually make a choice. Is it all science, or is none of it science? (As it happens there is a lot about reality we do not understand and no particular reason to suppose we ever will understand everything about it – so the hypothesis is falsified) But the suggestion wasn't "We will completely understand reality by a specific date". All that was posited was that reality, being constructed by a rational being, would be capable of being grasped by other rational beings. So every advance in our understanding is support for the inference. After all, this suggestion was mounted centuries ago originally - there was no reason then to suspect we'd get as far as we have. Or, wait, are you going to suggest that we haven't advanced a step in actually understanding reality, and play some kind of scientific anti-realism card? Now that would be fun.nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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markf: You wrote: "You are right that the example of an elaborate structure on Mars has been used and debated many times. Please forgive me but I do not want to replay that debate yet again." Too bad. In the many venues on the internet in which I've seen this example (or others like it) considered, not once has an ID critic come even close to refuting the conclusion it implies. In fact, I've seen some debates where Ph.D.s in biology can't even seem to grasp the bearing of the example. But if you want to duck the example, in order to avoid failing where everyone else has failed, I'll carry on and address your next point: "I wanted to address the charge of inconsistency – how can biologists accuse ID of not being scientific and yet make scientific criticisms of design hypotheses. "I believe the answer is that a hypothesis of design in general is not open to scientific study – but a specific design hypothesis is open to scientific study." I don't know what "a hypothesis of design in general" would be. That there is design somewhere, somehow? No design theorist says that. The claim is that there is design in the structure of the bacterial flagellum, or in the apparatus for winged flight, or in the fine-tuning of the fundamental physical properties, or in something else that is quite specific. I don't see the problem you are pointing at here. Earlier, you wrote: "I have always held that it is possible to detect the absence of presence of design if you make some assumptions about the motives and abilities of the designer. I think this is what most Darwinists (aka biologists) are subconsciously assuming when they argue, for example, that nature is not designed because no competent designer would have designed the Panda’s thumb and no benevolent designer the malaria parasite. If you don’t make any assumptions about the designer then the design hypothesis becomes as meaningful as the hypothesis that “life developed through chance”." First of all, re your aside, not all Darwinians are biologists -- some of the most militant, like Dennett and Pennock and Forrest and Ruse, know next to nothing about biology -- and not all biologists are Darwinians; in fact, not even all evolutionary biologists are Darwinians -- e.g., Margulis. But to your main point: The hypothesis of design does not postulate a perfect designer or a benevolent designer. It simply postulates that chance alone cannot account for the phenemenon in question. The Darwinians are simply wrong to drag in claims about imperfect design, suffering in nature, etc. Such claims have nothing to do with design arguments. You are confusing Christian apologetics with the design argument. It's true that if someone says: "The Christian God, who is a God of infinite love, power, and intelligence, designed X," then that person may have some explaining to do regarding allegedly incompetent design or allegedly malicious design of X. But this is not the design hypothesis. The design hypothesis is: "X cannot be explained by chance alone; there was some intelligent design involved." Why do you, and so many ID critics, have trouble grasping this? How many times, and in how many different ways, must ID proponents say this, before atheists and TEs catch on? I'm at a loss as to how to explain the obvious to learned critics, with Ph.D.s in biology and so on, who cannot see the obvious. But I'll try one more time, with some homely examples. The early home computers, say, the Pets, had design flaws in comparison with later computers. Yet we would not say that the Pets arose due to an explosion in a wire factory which threw them together. We would still say they were intelligently designed. The same goes for the first Wright brothers airplane. It was badly flawed from a design point of view. Did it therefore arise by chance? MS Word 2007 was clearly designed. It was also clearly badly designed. It is filled with flaws -- important functions have been removed, useless functions have been added, the menus are confusing, the help manuals are useless -- astoundingly, not even alphabetized -- etc. One often has to go to internet help groups, not Microsoft, to figure out how to do the most basic things. One is tempted at times to say that the staff at Microsoft could all be laid off with no discernible effect, because their product is so shoddy that it must have arisen by the chance generation of code. But nonetheless, hard though it sometimes seems to believe to someone who has just spent an hour trying to figure out how to perform a simple operation which any Word Perfect user can perform in the blink of an eye, MS Word 2007 was "designed." And when a surgeon removes your swollen appendix, or a dentists pulls a decaying tooth, there is pain and suffering; does this prove that surgeons and dentists operate by non-intelligence, by sheer chance -- the mere fact that their operations cause some pain and suffering? Would you argue that dentistry and surgery are not intelligent activities because no intelligent activity would involve pain and suffering? How do you know the designer was omnipotent? Perfectly intelligent? All-loving? These are not scientific claims, and *they are no part of the design hypothesis*. They are theological claims, and *ID has no responsibility whatsoever to defend them*. ID's job is to show that Dawkins's explanation of the origin of species is fatally flawed. It is *not* to show that the God of American evangelical Christianity created all the species one by one. Like most ID critics, you confuse ID with "creationism," and like most ID critics, you confuse "design" with "optimal design," or, worse, some conception of "good design" which is wholly your own, and no part of the theory. If you want to complain that the God of the Bible must be a bad or cruel designer, then do so. But that has nothing to do with ID has a hypothesis. That's a theological claim which ID as such has no interest in touching. ID claims that the organization of the cell, and structures such as the bacterial flagellum, did not arise by chance alone, but required intelligent input. That's the claim you and the Darwinists should be focusing on, not complaints about inverted retinas and panda's thumbs and malarial parasites. If we can determine that a frieze on a Martian cliffside was designed, without any previous knowledge of the designer, then in principle we should be able to determine whether particular biological systems display design, without any previous knowledge of the designer. So you must either deny that the design inference in the Martian case is valid, or you must somehow show that the reasoning is different in the biological case. You have not done either; nor, to my knowledge, has any other ID critic. T.Timaeus
December 31, 2010
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hey mrkf- Perhaps you can provide a testale hypothesis for your position so we will know what you will accept. My bet is that you won't provide such a hypothesis because it will expose yourposition for what it is- nonsense. But I could be worng...Joseph
December 31, 2010
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markf:
I thought a key principle of ID was that you could somehow detect design independent of any knowledge about the designer.
Very good- and we can do that. However it does take knowledge of cause and effect relationships. And that is what the design inference (ID) is based on- our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.Joseph
December 31, 2010
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Null: I speak in the direct and narrow sense of how a fair, tossed die settles in a distribution with odds generally 1 in 6. There may well be a deeper purpose in such a phenomenon, indeed even the purpose of playing a game is a purpose for such randomness, but the immediate process is for all practical purposes chance with no discernible direction to the outcomes. Of course the ancient Hebrews believed God could intervene in such a process to provide guidance, e.g. by drawing lots. But plainly, a miracle is being sought, and miracles take their distinctive rule as signs pointing to or from God, precisely by being exceptional to the usual course of events. GEM of TKI PS: Re MF. I will not trouble onlookers overmuch with remarks on MF's post just above, save to observe that MF is plainly shutting his eyes to what we do and can easily know about the source of functionally specific,complex information and associated organisation, as well as to the implications of our organised functionally specific observed cosmos that credibly had a beginning. What we do not know -- in part, arguably because we may not want to listen to One who does know -- does not relieve us from responsibility to face the implications of what we do or should know. Cf here on that, especially the excerpt from John Locke.kairosfocus
December 31, 2010
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#30 I am sorry, I have still failed to give a satisfactory explanation - so maybe it is worth another comment. You wrote: The designer would design a rational world, capable of being understood and comprehended” gets ruled out as not scientific enough, yet apparently I guess you are referring to: "God is a rational being whose creation (nature) was therefore accessible to rational minds " back in comment 15. I don't find this to be the same hypothesis. I don't understand "what accessible to rational minds" means, while I do understand "capable of being understood". The hypotheses: 1) The designer would design a rational world, capable of being understood and comprehended and 2) A benevolent designer created life to maximise human well-being Do have a similar structure and a similar level of "scientificness". They are of the form: "The world has features X, Y and Z because God wanted a world with features X, Y and Z." They specify a motive but no limitations or methodology. Such hypotheses can be falsified by showing the world does not have features X, Y and Z (e.g. there are features of the world such as malaria that do not maximise human well-being). And science can be used to show that the world does not have features X, Y and Z. So in this sense they are scientific. However, they are also blatantly ad hoc explanations. Without some other reason for supposing God had that motive and without some statement about the mechanisms and limitations they are obviously unsatisfactory. (As it happens there is a lot about reality we do not understand and no particular reason to suppose we ever will understand everything about it - so the hypothesis is falsified)markf
December 31, 2010
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kairosfocus, I'll zero in one the one chain in your explanation where problems begin for me. e –> So, in the relevant sense, chance seems to be about high contingency of outcomes, that cannot be assigned to a specific, purposeful intention, or to an accidental circumstance that just happen to be. Particular 'stochastic' results may after all be assigned to a 'specific, purposeful intention' that we're not aware of. Again, Dembski (if I recall right) explicitly states that the entire universe, top to bottom, at every point and at every event may in fact be designed - and thus ID (at least via his design filter, etc) is entirely capable of 'missing' some actual design in the universe. Now, maybe your definition is including these considerations - where 'chance' is a word for an outcome that onlookers couldn't have been particularly expected in the normal course of events, an isolated incident. One which we may even say, if an intention exists for it, we lack knowledge of it, maybe even lack knowledge of how said intention could have been implemented if it was the case. But if you're saying something stronger - that a 'chance event' really is a case where there is, in fact, no intention behind said event, no intention, then I end up asking "How is this known?" Merely identifying the pattern as what we'd call stochastic, even observing the event in question repeatedly and noting the spread of results, won't answer the question. Now, I don't think this caveat is a problem for ID necessarily. You can cede that every event in the world is designed, intended, and foreseen, but still ferret out particular types of design and intention, etc. Or at least, I see no reason why you couldn't. But once it's admitted that calling something 'chance' is related to the presence or lack of intention or purpose in a particular result, that's when I think it's clear we have a problem on our hands. It means chance has a kind of subjective component to it, one that isn't easily resolved, and which goes beyond science to discuss.nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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I believe the answer is that a hypothesis of design in general is not open to scientific study – but a specific design hypothesis is open to scientific study. Except, oddly, any 'specific design hypothesis' such as "The designer would design a rational world, capable of being understood and comprehended" gets ruled out as not scientific enough, yet apparently "no benevolent designer would create malaria, therefore nature isn't designed"? Hey, scientific. If a "specific design hypothesis" is "open to scientific study" - and it is therefore science in action to discuss and explore it - you've just opened the doors to ID. Welcome aboard, ID proponent, there are people ready to greet (and shun) you. What I said earlier stands. If design detection in nature is not science, then neither is detecting its lack. Rule them both out, but in the process you've made any claims of non-design in nature a non-scientific inference. Now as for me, I'm quite fine with that. Many atheists, including some scientists, will choke at the suggestion. It's a great way to take the joy out of science for many. Or we can rule them both in. In which case, hey, detecting the lack of design is science in action after all. But so is detecting the presence of design - even the presence of design in evolution itself. It may not be a universally held view, but so what? Science doesn't require consensus on all theories. But again, many atheists, including some scientists, will choke at this. It retains that much desired ability to say 'science shows there is no design' at the cost of other scientists saying 'baloney, design is all over the place'. Suddenly a Behe or a Mike Gene or a Denton or others are doing science when they determine nature is replete with design, every bit as much - and possibly moreso - when Stenger or Weinberg or Coyne determine there is none. But the old move of rigging the game, where it's only science if you determine that there is no design, but if you determine there is design you're not doing science, won't stand. Hypocrisy on this front is very easy to see once it's been outlined, and design critics of the evangelical variety are going to have to pick which horn they want to be impaled on. Do they keep the ability to suggest detecting the lack of design is scientific and open the gates of the castle to the ID barbarians? Or do they keep the gates locked, and in the process surrender anti-design arguments to philosophy and metaphysics? How's that old song go? "Laugh about it, shout about it, when you have to choose. Every way you look at it, you lose."nullasalus
December 31, 2010
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#22 Timeaus You are right that the example of an elaborate structure on Mars has been used and debated many times. Please forgive me but I do not want to replay that debate yet again. My concern this time was different. I wanted to address the charge of inconsistency - how can biologists accuse ID of not being scientific and yet make scientific criticisms of design hypotheses. I believe the answer is that a hypothesis of design in general is not open to scientific study - but a specific design hypothesis is open to scientific study.markf
December 31, 2010
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k --> Plainly, aspects of phenomena being caused by necessity, chance and intent is an easily confirmed empirical fact. This post is designed and my ability to type words and get them to post is designed and takes advantage of the mechanical necessities and stochastic behaviour of nature [electronics rests on quantum physics!], yet the moment it will appear on UD is to some extent a chance -- in the sense of an accident of clashing un-correlated chains of cause-effect bonds -- outcome. l --> Equally plainly, mechanical necessity leads to low contingency on materially similar start points [if I type p --> o --> i --> n--> --> t --> s, I expect to see "points"]. m --> And high contingency outcomes can be differentiated by the contrast between statistically distributed outcomes and purposeful ones. For instance, if I have reason to expect a die to give 1/6 odds, but a particular die keeps on coming up 6 for a long enough run, that is reason to suspect loading as its best explanation. Especially if money -- a purpose -- is a material factor. n --> Similarly, if the configuration space for a string of symbols is sufficiently large, and islands of contextually relevant function are deeply isolated in them, if I see function, I have good reason to infer to design, not chance. o --> This is why as a reasonable rule of thumb the FSCI threshold is set at 500 - 1,000 bits. (E.g.: If I see over 20 or so words [on avg English words have 7 letters or so] in coherent text in English, I have reason to suspect a deliberate sentence, not a random bit string.) p --> So, if science at its best is an empirically based and unfettered process of reasoning on observations and patterns of empirically grounded cause about how the world is and works, the design inference is plainly scientific. q --> Thus (evolutionary materialistic radicals in Kansas etc notwithstanding), cf AmH Sci Dict, 2005:
science (sns) The investigation of natural phenomena through observation, theoretical explanation, and experimentation, or the knowledge produced by such investigation. Science makes use of the scientific method, which includes the careful observation of natural phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis, the conducting of one or more experiments to test the hypothesis, and the drawing of a conclusion that confirms or modifies the hypothesis.
r --> So, we have every epistemic right to apply the design-detecting explanatory filter in scientific work, as long as a design is a reasonable possibility. s --> But, such immediately runs head-on into the Lewontinian, Divine foot in the door objection (especially on matters of origins science):
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997.]
s --> This objection, once it is plainly stated, answers itself: the question is clearly being begged. Science should be allowed to go where the evidence points, without being subjected to the sort of materialistic censorship we see here, however disguised it might be as a seemingly "reasonable" methodological constraint. t --> Question-begging is a fallacy, and until it can be shown through observation that functionally specific complex information can be routinely [or at least credibly] produced by undirected forces of chance and mechanical necessity -- cf. 17 and 19 - 20, then we have every right to view FSCI as a signature of intelligently directed configuration of contingent elements, aka design. u --> And, let us notice: this is a provisional though confident inductive generalisation, subject to empirical test and disproof. But, on the statistics of islands of function in vast config spaces, we have good reason to be as confident of this as of say the similarly provisional but inductive second law of thermodynamics. ________________ So, it looks like the real challenge is that there is an established materialistic dogmatism ruling as a reigning magisterium in key scientific institutions and pushed through their publicists and popularisers, in the name of popular science and science education. But no authority, however august, is better than his or her facts and reasoning. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 31, 2010
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Timaeus and Nullasalus: Both of you (as usual) have put up very significant move- the- ball- forward observations that deserve to be scooped out, highlighted and remarked on. Refreshing:
T, 22: Whether we call this design inference “scientific” or not is to me an entirely uninteresting question, and I’ve always maintained that fighting over whether or not ID is “science” is wrong-headed, whether coming from ID people or from their opponents. The only important question is whether the design inference in such a case would be valid. If it’s valid, then the claim that we need to know something about the motives or nature of the designer in order to validate the inference is bogus, and should be scrapped. Whether such an example can be extended to biological cases can be debated, but the stipulation that we must know something about the nature or motives of the designer is clearly wrong, and ID opponents should drop it from their list of arguments. N, 25: As for “chance”, I’m skeptical of it existing in the way many seem to think it does. There seems to be a habit of thinking of chance as literally being some “thing” with causal powers of its own, rather than as a description (if we’re speaking scientifically) or a metaphysical claim (if we’re asserting that it was unforeseen and unintended by any mind.) Hence we hear “evolution proves cats (for example) evolved by chance”, and what’s really going on is a number of ideas and claims are being – sometimes purposefully – muddled. At its scientific best it’s like saying “the processes and mechanisms of evolution, given what we know about them, did not make the development of cats an inevitability in the abstract”. In other words, if someone wanted to evolve cats, they couldn’t just pick any particular world or situation, let the processes and mechanisms work, and invariably – here are cats.
a --> Chance is a very interesting concept, being quite properly -- Ilion, I shall explain, DV -- joined to mechanical necessity and intelligence acting through art as a fundamental causal explanation. b --> How may we best characterise it? c --> New World Enc in its very helpful ID article gives a useful discussion:
In The Design Inference (1998), mathematician and philosopher William A. Dembski formalized, quantified, and generalized the logic of design inferences. According to Dembski, people infer design by using what he calls an Explanatory Filter. He wrote: “Whenever explaining an event, we must choose from three competing modes of explanation. These are regularity [i.e., natural law], chance, and design.” When attempting to explain something, “regularities are always the first line of defense. If we can explain by means of a regularity, chance and design are automatically precluded. Similarly, chance is always the second line of defense. If we can't explain by means of a regularity, but we can explain by means of chance, then design is automatically precluded. There is thus an order of priority to explanation. Within this order regularity has top priority, chance second, and design last.” According to Dembski, the Explanatory Filter “formalizes what we have been doing right along when we recognize intelligent agents.”[24] Of course, different aspects of the same thing can be due to different causes. For example, an abandoned car will rust according to natural laws, though the actual pattern of rust may be due to chance. Yet, the car itself was designed. So regularity, chance, and design, though competing, can also be complementary. When inferring design, ruling out regularity is the easiest step [added: i.e. if we see high contingency of outcomes under materially similar initial circumstances, then mechanical necessity is not dominating the relevant aspect of an object, phenomenon or process]. Ruling out chance is more difficult, since mere improbability (i.e., complexity) is not sufficient to infer design. Something that is complex could easily be due to chance. For example, if several dozen letters of the alphabet were randomly lined up, it would not be surprising to find a two-letter word such as “it” somewhere in the lineup. A two-letter word is not improbable enough to rule out chance. So, how complex must something be? . . .
d --> In that context, we may then appreciate the relevance and delicate balance of the following def'n from AmHD:
chance (chns)n. 1.a. The unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause. b. A force assumed to cause events that cannot be foreseen or controlled; luck: Chance will determine the outcome. 2. The likelihood of something happening; possibility or probability. Often used in the plural: Chances are good that you will win. Is there any chance of rain? 3. An accidental or unpredictable event . . .
e --> So, in the relevant sense, chance seems to be about high contingency of outcomes, that cannot be assigned to a specific, purposeful intention, or to an accidental circumstance that just happen to be. f --> In either case, the point is that there is no correlation between different "runs" under similar circumstances, and the outcome is just a matter of a probability/statistical distribution across the range of reasonable possibilities. g --> Hence the significance of the Bernoulli- Laplace rule of indifference in assigning probabilities of possible outcomes, in the first instance: since there is no reason to prefer any one particular side of a presumably fair die, the odds of any number form 1 to 6 are 1/6, and the like. h --> Then, by extension, if the micro-possibilities can be clustered in discernible groups, we can give relative statistical weights to grouped outcomes and assess the GENERAL odds of being in these clustered groups by those statistical weights. [This is a foundation stone of the highly successful discipline of statistical thermodynamics, and it is the basis for the statistical form of the second law.] i --> In such cases as we can see a bias for particular states [e.g. text in English has E most probable and X rather improbable, while also Q is almost always followed by U save in special contexts . . . of course someone wrote a whole novel that does not have a single e in it (how they got along without "the" and "one" or "red" etc is interesting . . .], then we can adjust the above, as is done in Shannon's work, and in cryptology. More complex and nasty to work with, but routinely done. This is also key in decision theory. j --> In this sense, chance is a reasonable entity, though it can be tuned into a whole philosophy: the world originated by chance + necessity only, and you are "unscientific" to think otherwise. Which is T's concern. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
December 31, 2010
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Robert Byers, Great and cool to see new blood for the good guys. Glad your not afraid of us yEC folk anymore but I gather your not yec now. No, I'm not a YEC. However, I just no longer have that bizarre, raging fury against YECs that so many TEs (even OECs!) seem to have, and I openly question whether that attitude is at all appropriate, and what motivates it. Mind you, I also am not a fan of the YECs who rage and condemn non-YECs either, but I think quite a lot of the problem on both ends could be solved with courtesy and diplomacy. What can I say, sometimes I'm optimistic. In fact, I want to touch broadly on the subject of YEC, ID and common attitudes to it all in a future post.nullasalus
December 30, 2010
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Timaeus, If this is right, it might be interesting for readers to know why you selected this as your handle. Does it indicate a general or particular commitment to Christianity in your thought? Honestly, I chose this handle years ago, and if memory serves not for any very deep reasons other than "A Christian reference" and "It just seemed appealing". But I am generally committed to Christianity in my thinking, though also to broader (even classical) theism in general. And on the subject of ID, I even have sympathies with deists and non-theistic ID proponents. Then again I'm an easygoing sort, and usually try to find some common ground with everyone but the New Atheists, who I have a tremendously low opinion of. If so, in what way does Christianity ground, bound, or shape how you think about evolution, design, chance, etc.? It depends on what's being discussed, really. I suppose the best way to put it is I tend to be reactionary rather than fiercely advocating one specific view - hence, I think of evolution, even macroevolution, as being yet one more possible design method a Designer could use to achieve a given or collection of ends. Naturally those aren't the only possibilities, but because the question is so often framed as 'evolution or design', I end up focusing in that subject area. As for "chance", I'm skeptical of it existing in the way many seem to think it does. There seems to be a habit of thinking of chance as literally being some "thing" with causal powers of its own, rather than as a description (if we're speaking scientifically) or a metaphysical claim (if we're asserting that it was unforeseen and unintended by any mind.) Hence we hear "evolution proves cats (for example) evolved by chance", and what's really going on is a number of ideas and claims are being - sometimes purposefully - muddled. At its scientific best it's like saying "the processes and mechanisms of evolution, given what we know about them, did not make the development of cats an inevitability in the abstract". In other words, if someone wanted to evolve cats, they couldn't just pick any particular world or situation, let the processes and mechanisms work, and invariably - here are cats. Why this should be a concern to anyone who believes in an omniscient, omnipotent God is beyond me, rather like saying that 'weather' will not on its own part the red sea. No, I suppose it won't. So my Christianity would bind my thinking largely on topics specific to Christianity (For instance, I think the Fall describes a real, historical event, even if certain particulars aren't understood by us. I think Genesis makes it clear that God is the author of nature, through whatever means nature came into being. I think accepting an omniscient, omnipotent God renders a tremendous amount of 'evolution v design' worries moot, and the 'darwinism v design' worries have everything to do with shoddy darwinian metaphysics being passed off as science.), though my thoughts on ID go beyond Christianity. I think ID could, should, does and will have appeal to people other than Christians, and that that's an aspect of ID that proponents should recognize and prepare for now. I hope I gave some good responses to your questions, T. If not, ask again - always a pleasure.nullasalus
December 30, 2010
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Great and cool to see new blood for the good guys. Glad your not afraid of us yEC folk anymore but I gather your not yec now. I.D is a intellectual step closer to Yec. Merry Christmas and success for you and the forum from your contributions.Robert Byers
December 30, 2010
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nullasalus: You gave a short explanation of your name, but to me, not a full one. Unless I am mistaken, your name comes from the Patristic phrase *extra ecclesiam nulla salus* -- "outside the Church there is no salvation." If this is right, it might be interesting for readers to know why you selected this as your handle. Does it indicate a general or particular commitment to Christianity in your thought? If so, in what way does Christianity ground, bound, or shape how you think about evolution, design, chance, etc.? T.Timaeus
December 30, 2010
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markf: I can't speak for nullasalus, but I'll give my own response to this statement: "I thought a key principle of ID was that you could somehow detect design independent of any knowledge about the designer." It strikes me as painfully obvious that one can detect design independent of any knowledge of the designer. One example that's been used many times here and elsewhere is: Suppose we found some elaborate structure on Mars. It might be a sort of Bayeux tapestry carved in stone on a mountainside, with discernible figures with heads, limbs, etc., in a series of poses indicating an intelligible series of actions. And suppose we found nothing else on Mars which provided any clue as to where this structure came from. We could know for a certainty that it was designed, while knowing literally nothing about the nature, motives, or history of the designer(s). Whether we call this design inference "scientific" or not is to me an entirely uninteresting question, and I've always maintained that fighting over whether or not ID is "science" is wrong-headed, whether coming from ID people or from their opponents. The only important question is whether the design inference in such a case would be valid. If it's valid, then the claim that we need to know something about the motives or nature of the designer in order to validate the inference is bogus, and should be scrapped. Whether such an example can be extended to biological cases can be debated, but the stipulation that we must know something about the nature or motives of the designer is clearly wrong, and ID opponents should drop it from their list of arguments. T.Timaeus
December 30, 2010
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Hey, Null. Good show. You bring a unique perspective to the table, so I am confident that your thoughtful interaction with ID partisans will help them sharpen their axes. In my judgment, you are one of the few Theistic Evolutionists who takes the Theism as seriously as the Evolution, setting you apart from a herd of Christian Darwinists who go by the same name but who mean something radically different.StephenB
December 30, 2010
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PS: In the bad old days of statistics by hand, my dad -- used to work as an econometric statistician in Gov Jam [helped set up the first Leontief i/o matrix model used there, a 23 x 23 model, many decades ago] -- says they used to take the telephone book, and use a technique to get random numbers from the phone books by using an un correlated way to pick numbers on the page. Near as I recall, use the last few digits on the 1st no on a page picked at random, to pick row and column, and use the line code digits [usually the last four]. The phone numbers are assigned deterministically, and the alphabetic list is non-random. But the lack of correlation triggers an uncorrelated string of numbers that will be quite good enough to pass as random.kairosfocus
December 30, 2010
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Null: Fair enough, indeed pseudorandom number generators are deterministic and designed. My idea of a random source issuing FSCI would be the example I keep challenging evolutionary materialists with. Set up a Zener source, de bias it's output -- usually, feed it into a pseudorandom generator as seed! [how truly random numbers are often generated today] -- then use this to write a floppy. Test the floppy for ASCII text, and the text for function or meaning. Say, is it Shakespeare or a new version of Word. (And no, contrary to rumour that is not done, nor does uncle Bill hire monkeys to bash keyboards in his programing dept. Those photos of truckloads of bananas heading into the campus are faked.) There is a finite, non-zero probability that a floppy treated like this will have coherent ASCII text, or program code etc, even the works of Shakespeare. (Of course the odds against are astronomical.) if you really set something like this up, and it fed you meaningful info, that would be lucky noise in action. But, you would have an objective way to confirm that it really was spontaneous. (I think we can trust q-mech to give us random noise out of the Zener. Failing that, try sky noise.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 30, 2010
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Hello Null, I have been following your comments here and at TT (where I usually just lurk) for years and have very much enjoyed your perspective (and bite). I am tickled s***less that you will be a contributor at UD. CongratsUpright BiPed
December 30, 2010
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kairosfocus, Thanks for the welcome, and Happy New Year to you too. Of course, in principle, chance can imitate anything whatsoever. but if we let the chance hyp get out of hand, it undermines reasoning, as it for instance would be equally arguable that every dropped object we saw falling was by chance not mechanical necessity, and the same for the orbits of planets etc. I'd note that design can also "imitate chance" - what seems like a chance set of results can actually be one set to a pattern we aren't looking for, or for the purpose of results we don't understand. I recall Dembski mentioning this with the thomists (stressing that ID can give 'false negatives', and in principle everything can be designed.) It doesn't even have to be an 'imitation of chance' - the 'chance' can come entirely from the mind doing the judging in a mistaken manner. Well, can you give me an observed case of a complex digitally coded system or an algorithm or a program or data structure spontaneously originating by chance plus necessity without intelligent configuration? Wouldn't any program or data or, etc, that managed to 'spontaneously originate' be doing so in a universe that itself is strongly suspected of being an intelligent configuration? Actually, I think we've gone back and forth on this in the past, so I wonder - what would be an example of any of these things 'spontaneously originating by chance plus necessity', even as an utterly fictional example? Because if I saw a "complex digitally coded system or an algorithm or a program or data structure" that 'spontaneously originated', I admit, I'd still be thinking design. Of course, one problem I've had with the designation of 'necessity, chance or design' is that 'necessity' itself strikes me as yet another instance of design, and 'chance' presupposes order and orchestration which itself indicates design. But then, I've grown very skeptical of 'chance' at all levels, except as a tool used in making models, etc.nullasalus
December 30, 2010
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