Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and Catholic theology

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Father Michal Heller, 72, a Polish priest-cosmologist and a onetime associate of Archbishop Karol Wojtyla, the future pope, was named March 12 as the winner of the Templeton Prize.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801398.htm

In this recent interview came a critique of the intelligent design position as bad theology, akin to the Manichean heresy. Fr. Heller puts forth this rather strange argument as follows:

“They implicitly revive the old manicheistic error postulating the existence of two forces acting against each other: God and an inert matter; in this case, chance and intelligent design.”

Coming from a theologian, this is an astonishing summary of the Manichean heresy. Historically Manichæism is a form of dualism: that good and evil were equal and opposite forces, locked in an eternal struggle. In this distortion, the role of the all-powerful evil is replaced by chance? It is traditional Christian teaching that God forms (i.e. designs) creation. Does this make God the arch-rival of chanciness? It is difficult to see how the intelligent design perspective could possibly be contrary to Catholic teaching. For example, St. Thomas Aquinas speaks in his Summa of God explicitly as the great designer of the creation:

“… the “Spirit of God” Scripture usually means the Holy Ghost, Who is said to “move over the waters,” not, indeed, in bodily shape, but as the craftsman’s will may be said to move over the material to which he intends to give a form.”

The ID point of view is such a minimalist position it is amazing to see the charge of heresy– it simply does not have the philosophical meat necessary to begin to make this kind of theological accusation.

There are some points that Fr. Heller raises that are entirely consistent with an ID point of view:

“There is no opposition here. Within the all-comprising Mind of God what we call chance and random events is well composed into the symphony of creation.” But “God is also the God of chance events,” he said. “From what our point of view is, chance — from God’s point of view, is … his structuring of the universe.”

In this quote, he is basically saying the there is no such thing as fundamental chance, only apparent chance. The apparent noise is really a beautiful tapestry viewed from the wrong side. Of course if there were discernable structure, then we could … well … discern it (this is the whole point of ID). The problem here is that Fr. Heller does not have a self-consistent position that one can argue or agree with, as his next quote shows:

“As an example, Father Heller said, “birth is a chance event, but people ascribe that to God. People have much better theology than adherents of intelligent design. The chance event is just a part of God’s plan.”

Now if I were picking from a list of random events to use as my illustration of chance acting in the world, childbirth would not be one of them. Does he mean the timing of birth, or the act of conception, or the forming of the child? If anything this is an extremely well-choreographed event that has very little to do with chanciness of any flavor. Here he seems to be going back, and saying that chance is real (not just apparent) – but God intends to have it that way. Once again, the ID position can also be reconciled with the existence of fundamental chance, but not fundamental chance as the only thing that exists in the universe.

In this interview, Fr. Heller does not seem to have a sophisticated view of how randomness can work together with intelligence, he also does not seem to have read any books by design advocates – the arguments he makes are directed to nonexistent opponents. For a physicist/theologian that is giving an interview upon the reception of his Templeton award, the only physics/theology that is offered is internally confused, and based on caricatures of the ID argument. My feeling is that if he actually read and considered the ID arguments we might find a kindred spirit.

Comments
Jerry: By the way, your abbreviated account of the Galileo affair was one of the best I have ever read over the internet. Don't get discouraged if people pile out, but do take it all in. My favorite verse about all this comes from Kipling's poem "If." ....."If you can keep your head when all men doubt you, But make allowances for their doubting too".........StephenB
April 10, 2008
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-----Jerry: "As I said I don’t want to give anyone who is wrong any slack. That is how we may get to the truth. But if certain untruths are off limits then we will never get very far. I completely agree with you on this one. As I have pointed out in the past, people deserve consideration and mercy, but bad ideas deserve no mercy. The problem is, however, that we are making inferences to the best explanation and we have to interpret facts. Facts don't do their own interpreting. So, yes, lets be merciless about facts, but let dialogue about the interpretation. It is very easy for some of us, myself included, to treat our well-thought out opinions to be facts. This, it seems to me, is where the danger lies.StephenB
April 10, 2008
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jerry: let's try to understand each other. If you mean that those who comr here in bad faith, and try only to provoke and disturb, making unsubstantiated claims and not engaging in any serious and sincere discussion, should be in some way controlled, I agree with you. That means trying to control the evident trolls. Any moderated blog does that. It is not always easy, and it is not always a pleasure, but it must be done. Especially on a "minority" blog as this. But that is already done here. quite well indeed, sometimes even too vehemently for my taste. That would seem the sum of your #197 post, where you respond to me, although it seems quite different from what you were saying in the original post I was addressing. OK. Maybe I misunderstood. But then, in your post #201, responding to StephenB, you seem to refer to well different problems: "The problem lies in that the evidence supports naturalistic explanations for the appearance for most species while there are relatively few species that the best explanation is intelligent input (any bets this comment gets misinterpreted.)" No, I think I can interpret it well, because wehave already discussed that exstensively. In few words, correct me if I am wrong, you believe that most of evolution "at the species level" is easily explained without intelligent input. Well you are welcome to believe so. You know I believe the opposite, and that our beliefs are instead similar at higher tassonominc levels. But I could object to the part that says: "that the evidence supports naturalistic explanations". You obviously believe that, but I obviously believe that the evidence supports the opposite view. That's exactly why we have opposite views on that point. So, what's the "truth" about that? There is not a "truth". Both you and I are aware of what is known, we just interpret it differently. That is called scientific debate. You argue that most of the scientific community would agree with you. That's true, but most of the scientific community would agree that no designer is needed at all, and I have not use for that kind of "agreement". And still I am alittle bit worried, when you say: "But if certain untruths are off limits then we will never get very far." Are my scientific opinions in the bunch of "off limit untruths"? Just to know...gpuccio
April 10, 2008
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StephenB, The problem lies in that the evidence supports naturalistic explanations for the appearance for most species while there are relatively few species that the best explanation is intelligent input (any bets this comment gets misinterpreted.) So if you are going to err in a direction of giving slack (and I don't believe in giving any slack to untruth), why err in the direction which has no scientific support. As I said I don't want to give anyone who is wrong any slack. That is how we may get to the truth. But if certain untruths are off limits then we will never get very far. Don't be embarrassed by anything you write. When we write fast and edit on the fly as it is often done here there are plenty of errors. You did not say "more better" which is something I might say. Where did spontaneous generation come from? No body believes that any more.jerry
April 10, 2008
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I am so embarrassed with my poor editing. The term “much better” should not be there. I promise not to be so careless in the future.StephenB
April 10, 2008
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Sorry, my first sentence should read, if they are not roundly challenged, then they are probably NOT off the wall.StephenB
April 10, 2008
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Jerry: If someone is truly off the wall, they will be probably be challenged. If they are not roundly challenged, then they are probably off the wall. Think of it this way. We have a wide variety of opinions here, much like a continuum with extreme positions on both ends. Either position at either end, COULD be right, but probably not. On the one hand, Creation scientists COULD be right, but probably not. On the other hand, pure naturalists could be right, but probably not. HOWEVER: The Creation scientists are much more likely to be right than the pure naturalists. Much better. If we must abandon most current evidence and choose either [A] God simply stepped in and did it all, even in seven days or [B] Everything created itself (many pure naturalists believe exactly that) then, given only those two choices, [A] is a much better choice. Further, most YEC’s do not take such an extreme position as [A]. On the other hand, most naturalists really do believe in spontaneous generation. That is why we should give YEC’s more slack than we give pure naturalists.StephenB
April 10, 2008
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gpuccio, you said "Who decides what “untruth” is? You? Who decides what arguments sre spurious or irrelevant?" I never said it was I and it would certainly be the last one I would choose. But anyone can point out an untruthful statement if they think it is so. We do that all the time. It then gets discussed or not. I can point out where very relevant statements never get discussed. Learning what is not true is an easier process than learning what is true. Essentially it is what we try do all the time. It is not hard to point out spurious arguments most times. Kairosfocus is a one man machine at pointing out spurious and irrelevant arguments. They are so frequently used here. Do you object to him doing so? you said " “There are still many irrelevant arguments to evolution that are frequently raised and it should be an objective here of eliminating these too.” Very, very worrying statement!" Why is it a worrying statement? Based on your reply then any statement by a Darwinist pushing gradual evolution and deep time as the explanation for evolution should be given equal acceptance as any other nonsense statement. The implication by your short comment is that there are no irrelevant comments or that there is someone who determines what is relevant and not relevant. So why is it a worrisome statement. It should be one you should embrace. you said "Everybody here, if he is in good faith, is trying to “promote truth” " Well maybe not everyone here is of good faith or maybe they have agendas or they are just not attentive and say things reflexively. When they make statements that are untrue, then they should be corrected. you said "I believe that the only reason it can disappear is if everyone agrees on their role, and that’s not even true in the darwinist field, least of all here." Then we should try to correct it here as well with the scientific community if we can. We are trying to promote a correct view of ID and we should also promote a correct view of evolution. Or don't you believe the two are related? I am sorry. I do not agree with you. If a lot of nonsense is allowed to pass unchecked on this site then where else is there that it can be corrected. If the blog of one of the major contributors to Intelligent Design does not care about eliminating untruth, how can we expect any meaningful people to take us seriously.jerry
April 10, 2008
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to gpuccio (re: 192), I'm sorry. I misunderstood the question about pi. Yes, I quite agree that if we see something following the independently specified pattern of a sufficiently long portion of the digits of pi, then (in the absence of any evident constraint to do so) I would agree that could become a legitimate basis for inferring intelligent agency.ericB
April 10, 2008
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jerry: With all the possible respect and affection for a regular contributor of this blog as you are, I am not sure I understand what you mean. Who decides what "untruth" is? You? Who decides what arguments sre spurious or irrelevant? I confess that I am a little bit worried by your approach. Why do you say that "The constant harping against rm + ns is slowly disappearing."? I believe that the only reason it can disappear is if everyone agrees on their role, and that's not even true in the darwinist field, least of all here. "Maybe by pointing out the fallacy of opposing it ". Which fallacy? Whatever some can say, RM + NS is still the main "engine of variation" in darwinist theories. We can call it RV + NS, just to emphasize what anybody knows, that random variation is not limited to single point mutations, but has other perfectly equivalent forms, but then? The problem is the same. "There are still many irrelevant arguments to evolution that are frequently raised and it should be an objective here of eliminating these too." Very, very worrying statement! "I have learned a lot since coming here and so have others. " Good for you, good for them. "This process should not stop. One way of ensuring that is to promote truth." Again I don't understand. Everybody here, if he is in good faith, is trying to "promote truth". That does not mean that we agree. Again, who decides what truth is? After all, we are talking science here, and not indoctrination,or at least that was my impression. I don't think there is truth in science, at best a correct attitude of debate, respect and confrontation. I can't see any alternative to an open debate for the big scientific problems we are addressing here. Many darwinist don't agree with that. They think they can unilaterally decide what is scientific truth and what can or cannot be debated. I am sorry, but if that's what you have been learning, I fell obliged to disagree.gpuccio
April 10, 2008
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StephenB, I could point out several instances but I won't of people who are here all the time. They are not trolls and I would not be saying what I say if I didn't see continued instances of it. We have suffered a lot of temporary intrusions of irrational folks who for whatever reasons seem only want to disrupt. I do not mean these people. The constant harping against rm + ns is slowly disappearing. Maybe by pointing out the fallacy of opposing it or the better terminology in discussing it has gotten through to some. Maybe by pointing out that a lot of what Darwin and his successors has proposed has merit is also getting through. There are still many irrelevant arguments to evolution that are frequently raised and it should be an objective here of eliminating these too. I have learned a lot since coming here and so have others. This process should not stop. One way of ensuring that is to promote truth. I have a question here. Why should anyone object to eliminating untruth by whoever makes it? Why bring up spurious irrelevant arguments?jerry
April 10, 2008
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kairosfocus: sorry to have repeated the "AAA" example, I had not yet seen your post...gpuccio
April 10, 2008
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ericB (# 183 and 184): I agree with you, I just need to specify better a couple of points: 1) About pi, I was not interested in a philosophical discussion about the nature of pi, or of other fundamental constants. I was interested in the meaning of a sequence of digits which corresponded to pi. Now, the fact is that pi is an irrational number, and therefore its sequence cannot be compressed (anticipated) in any way. It can, indeed, be calculated, but through complex mathematical algorithms. So, what I am saying is: if we have a complex (long) enough sequence of digits which corresponds to the sequence of pi, and our options are: a) it was randomly generated b) it was calculated by an intelligent agent then the specification of the sequence (it corresponds to a computable mathematical constant) and its complexity would favour option b. Please take notice that we must always exclude necessity, but I believe, although I am not a mathematician, that the sequence of pi cannot be generated by any "natural" (in the sense of not designed) law, and it requires a complex and intelligent computation. Again, I am not interested to any generic discussion, just the problem: we see some information, what can we say about it from the causal point of view? 2)About complexity and compressibility, you are obviously right, But there is an aspect of the problem of compressibility which deserves further discussion. In the general context of CSI compressibility is a kind of specification, because compressible sequences are a minute fraction of the total, and they can easily be recognized, and created, by intelligent agents. For instance, I can easily write a sequence of 1000 repetitions of the "A" character. That string would exhibit CSI, because it is at the same time complex (in its uncompressed form) and specified (by its compressibility). But the problem is that compressible information can easily be generated by necessity. For instance, a typewriter with only the "A" character would easily generate such a string, without any need for specific design. That's why compressible specification is often not included in the concept of functional specification (for instance, by Abel and Trevors). It remains true, anyway, that if we were certain that the string was generated by a perfectly random system, where all the letters in the alphabbet had the same probability to occur, then the above string would exhibit CSI. This discussion anyway, while interesting in a general context, is not particularly relevant to biological information, because biological information is practically never of the compressible type. Protein primary structure, for instance, is an example of functional specification which is comletely contingent: there is no mathemathical way of significantly compressing that information. In that case, functional specification is the equivalent of some form of pre-specification: only a designer who already knows the sequence, or in alternative has specific and abundant information about the result to be obtained, can implement that CSI. The second alternative is very interesting, because we have good examples of design which intelligently uses some kind of random search to obtain a result in a scenario where the designer knows what to obtain, but not how to obtain it. Those examples are: a) Protein engineering by random mutation intentionally applied to a specif subset of intelligently selected precursors, and followed by intelligent selection of the output by measurement of a function intelligently chosen in advance. b) Antibody maturation, where an indirect designer (the intelligently designed immune system) intelligently increases the affinity of already existing antibodies to a specific antigen by effecting a specific random hypermutation on the specific sequences of the existing reactive antibodies, and then intelligently selects the output on the basis of its affinity with the stored information of the original antigen. So, a designer can act in two different ways: a) he can already know the final functional information in advance, and just implement it in a flexible contingent "material". b) he can have specific information and knowledge of what to attain, but not know in detail how to implement it (that's certainly the case with many human designers!). In that case, he can use various kinds of guided search to reach the final result, including guided searchs which utilize, at some point, a directed random search. But the important point, made very clearly by Dembski and Marks, is that in the second case the guided search has to incorporate a lot of information about the target, to be really successful.gpuccio
April 10, 2008
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5] 174: If as KF says the cosmos is designed, then logically everything in the cosmos is also designed. Not at all, as was specifically pointed out and EXEMPLIFIED. Designed contexts may in praxis – per design -- incorporate chance processes. In the case of the cosmos, the design plainly includes the random thermal agitation we measure when we measure temperature. A monopoly game includes dice-throwing, which for practical purposes is a manifestation of chance within a designed, rule-regulated context. In short, the design of the cosmos does not entail that within the cosmos everything is specifically designed in the relevant sense detected by the EF: FSCI. FSCI, when it is observed, is a reliable characteristic of agents making configurations to fulfill purposes. Nothing RF has said undercuts this central pint – though it repeatedly distracts ourt attention from it. [Of course, if complex, lawlike necessity is an integral part of the cosmos, that, too may reflect design, especially where there is evident fine-tuning at work, as described already in very brief outline.] 6] Could it not be argued that a set of digits that on the face of it had no obvious, specific function in any known context might later turn out to be the billionth and 10 digits of pi? And so it would have been wrong tionot consider it as CSI (as if the cosmos is designed so is the value of pi). The first point is that this would be anotehr false negative, i.e. This is strictly irrelevant to the material question – identifying cases that may test whether or no the EF gives false positives. Secondly, the digits of pi are a matter of mathematical necessity: the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is a specific, definable deterministic value. It so happens that the resulting number is irrational, in fact more than that, transcendental, as are MOST actual real numbers and so the actual digits do not show any particular pattern that we may discern from scooping out an arbitrary substring, but that is not relevant to the case. Third, as has been discussed previously, with examples, the detection of functionality as and instance of specification is prior to the issue of deciding that something is a case of FSCI:
[1] CONTINGENT AND FUNCTIONALLY SPECIFIED – Y/N? [2] If N, then not FSCI. (Probably lawlike necessity, but false negatives are possible.) [3] If Y, then functionally specified, so is it complex enough? -- Y/N? [4] If N, then probably chance [false negatives are possible] [5] If Y, then FSCI.
Once informationally complex functional specification is observed, then that is what needs to be explained. To date, all cases of FSCI where we directly know the cause, are the result of agent action. That is, the EF is on evidence in hand, reliable when it rules design. 7] 179, Given that combination of factors, the laws of physics and the physical properties of the item generating the beam, would it not be true to say that the beam was designed due to the laws of physics defining it’s behaviour also being designed? There are naturally occurring lasers and masers, and for that matter, there were naturally occurring nuclear reactors on earth. Further to this, human designed lasers often exhibit spiking behaviour, which reflects underlying random processes of photon generation and encounter with excited atoms in the lasing cavity as photons that happen to be aligned with the end-mirrors travel back and forth -- most are not (hence typical low energetic efficiency) -- and pull down other photons in coherent lockstep. [This leads to for instance the use of Q-switching to get strong, controlled pulses out of the system.] Again, design may lead to or incorporate random behaviour, or may exploit randomness. 8] EF and false positives: The point GP makes, substantially speaking, is that our work is provisional. It is possible in the abstract that the EF may turn out to givber false positives, as any scientific inference may be empirically overturned. It is know that it gives false negatives. In praxis, in every test case where we directly know the causal process, the observation that FSCI is present, reliably and accurately rules design. But, the underlying point is a statistical one similar tot hat underlying the statistical version of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. For instance, it is logically and physically possible that all the O2 molecules in the room in which you sit could find themselves rushing off to one end, leaving you gasping fro breath and dying as a result. But, the highly mixed configs are so utterly overwhelmingly dominant in the space of all configs, that you are maximally unlikely to observe such on the gamut of the lifetime of the observed cosmos. In short, 2 LOT is in principle subject to huge fluctuations, but per probabilistic resources, we are so unlikely to see that happen that we see the law as a highly reliable one. The EF and observation of FSCI are similarly probailistic in focus (as I discussed in my always linked section A): it is logically and physically possible that lucky noise has generated e.g. this post, but that outcome is so utterly improbable that we infer on best and reliable explanation to agent action. 9] Random number generators and free wills: The best examples trace to quantum or tehrmally-linkled or similar physical phenomena, e.g. A Zener diode noise source driving an electronic circuit, or Johnson noise in a resistor, or the noise in an antenna and radio picking up the ionosphere's off-station shortwave RF, etc. All of this is consistent with a cosmos that exhibits underlying design in its physics. In short, design, as GP points out, is not determinism. Similarly, that there may – on evidence as discussed in brief -- be an extracosmic mind that has designed the cosmos does not preclude that there may also be minds within the cosmos that are significantly free to decide, think, reason and communicate. [Indeed, evolutionary materialism and all other worldviews that reduce mind to chance and/or necessity end up in self refutation, as they undermine the freedom of choice and action that underlies real rationality. This includes theological determinisms. Divine sovereignty and foreknowledge are not logically equivalent to, nor do they entail, determinism.] GEM of TKI PS: It is interesting (though a bit sad) to observe that GG seems to have simply elected to drop out of the discussion instead of addressing the issues raised above. If you are lurking, GG, cou;ld you update us on your response to the above; especially on the questions of proof, syllogisms and assumptions? PPS: Jerry at 182 – the material point is that we are discussing in THIS thread, and there is no [il-]logical equivalency here, as can be seen from the above interaction on fallacies. Of course there are closed-minded, ignorant and even wicked ID supporters; as is true of all human movements. But that is not at all the same as the accusation that those who reject the evo mat paradigm are necessarily one or more of: “ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. “ PPPS: DS: “Turned out it was the best useless humanity class I was forced to endure. “ Sounds like my long term view of UWI's old UC 100 -- “Useless English” as we used to call it. For, it was not so “useless” at all! [But one hard lesson: it's “easy” to spot fallacies in Hitler, but when you are caught up in the heat of the moment and the one holding forth on stage is one you look to for hope, that's another matter! Indeed, on observing communist agitators at work manipulating my university's student body, I called a meeting with the staff who taught UC 100, to discuss this observed gap and what could be done to improve the critical awareness component. Later on, they split the course into a basic language skills fixup one and a language for academic purposes one, with a pretest to pick which you would do as your first course . . .]kairosfocus
April 10, 2008
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Participants (and onlookers): First, I see that a considerable back-forth has happened on digital strings and how one may assign them to chance, necessity or agency, centred on my example of a functionally specified text string that is not sufficiently complex for the EF to rule “design.” I will address this a bit, and other points of interest: 1] RF, 172: Would a set of repeating text like “THIS TEXT STRING THIS TEXT STRING”, repeated a million times trip the EF as a false negative? Such a string is specified [and highly compressible,as EB notes] as to description: “repeat [THIS TEXT STRING] 10^6 times” specifies the algorithm adequately] , but periodic and repetitive, similar to the structure of a crystal. It would most likely be ruled as necessity by the filter, which might again be a false negative [depending on the circumstances]. This is not surprising, as an agent may imitate necessity. And, by extension, it highlights that the EF is looking for those situations where an agent acts in a characteristic way – generating functionally specified, complex information. More broadly, this is actually a reflection of one of the very first examples studied by the very first technical level ID researchers, TBO, in their book, TMLO, as they set out to identify and explain a then emergent concept in OOL studies, complex specified information; which traces to Orgel, 1973. I suggest you read Appendix 3, my always linked [through my name, LH column], to see that discussion in its context. Or, more simply, read Peterson's basic intro article, which also addresses the case of identifying CSI:
. . . . suppose my computer keyboard had only one key, and all I could type was: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA My computer would be incapable of producing contingency. This is rather like the operation of many physical laws in nature . . . . The sequence of 22 letters: KAZDNHF OPZSJHQL ZXFNV is complex in a certain sense, because that exact pattern is highly unlikely to be produced by chance . . . The total number of unique sequences of [27] characters that could be produced would be 27 multiplied by itself 22 times, or 27 to the 22nd power . . . If we . . . generate random strings 22 characters long . . . [with] a trillion tries every second, the odds would still be against producing this exact sequence by chance in 20 billion years . . . . The third criterion is specification. Here's another 22-character sequence: THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR . . . . [which] is complex . . . It is also specified in relation to a pre-existing standard or function; in this case, the rules, spelling, and vocabulary of the English language . . . . In every case in which we know the "causal story" underlying complex specified information (writing a sonnet, creating a computer program, or sculpting Mount Rushmore) we know that it has been produced by an intelligence. [Source: "The Little Engine That Could...Undo Darwinism," Published 8/5/2005.]
2] it seems everywhere we look we find life where we would not expect to see it. The inside of nuclear reactor walls do a nice line in some kind of moss I believe, and some bacteria live in cracks in ice. and so forth . . . . I’m not aware of any research that shows that our universe is the only possible one suitable for life. I am talking about alternative universes where there would be no atoms, or there would not be the set of atoms required for life as we know it, starting with C, or no stars, or no sun-like [long term, more or less stable, hot enough] stars, or no galaxies, or all stars would be giants that burn out rapidly . . . etc, etc. [Have you read the summary in Section D, the always linked, as I advised?] Excerpting an example or two from Craig:
Changes in the gravitational or electromagnetic forces, for example, by only one part in 10^40 would preclude the existence of stars like our sun, making life impossible. Changes in the speed of the expansion by only one part in a million million when the temperature of the universe was 10^10 degrees would have either resulted in the universe's recollapse long ago, or precluded galaxies' condensing, in both cases making life impossible. The present temperature of the universe is so isotropic [uniform] that Roger Penrose of Oxford calculates that "the accuracy of the Creator's aim," when he selected this world from the set of physically possible ones, must have been on the order of one part in 10^10(^124). [That is, 1 followed by 10^124 zeros, far more than there are atoms in the observed universe.]
Leslie adds a significant point, on convergent specifications of the same constants:
One striking thing about the fine tuning is that a force strength or a particle mass often appears to require accurate tuning for several reasons at once. Look at electromagnetism. Electromagnetism seems to require tuning for there to be any clear-cut distinction between matter and radiation; for stars to burn neither too fast nor too slowly for life’s requirements; for protons to be stable; for complex chemistry to be possible; for chemical changes not to be extremely sluggish; and for carbon synthesis inside stars (carbon being quite probably crucial to life). Universes all obeying the same fundamental laws could still differ in the strengths of their physical forces, as was explained earlier, and random variations in electromagnetism from universe to universe might then ensure that it took on any particular strength sooner or later. Yet how could they possibly account for the fact that the same one strength satisfied many potentially conflicting requirements, each of them a requirement for impressively accurate tuning? [Our Place in the Cosmos, 1998]
As to the second point, let us now excerpt from from Leslie:
. . . the need for such explanations does not depend on any estimate of how many universes would be observer-permitting, out of the entire field of possible universes. Claiming that our universe is ‘fine tuned for observers’, we base our claim on how life’s evolution would apparently have been rendered utterly impossible by comparatively minor alterations in physical force strengths, elementary particle masses and so forth. There is no need for us to ask whether very great alterations in these affairs would have rendered it fully possible once more, let alone whether physical worlds conforming to very different laws could have been observer-permitting without being in any way fine tuned. Here it can be useful to think of a fly on a wall, surrounded by an empty region. A bullet hits the fly Two explanations suggest themselves. Perhaps many bullets are hitting the wall or perhaps a marksman fired the bullet. There is no need to ask whether distant areas of the wall, or other quite different walls, are covered with flies so that more or less any bullet striking there would have hit one. The important point is that the local area contains just the one fly.
If you pardon a procedural note, it would help if you were to do some basic readings and then discuss in light of what has already been put into play. 3] you cannot give me an example of an object that is not designed because everything is designed right mr Focus? If the cosmos is designed and/or the rules that make it so then everything else is also designed . . . . It seems to me this is your escape hatch, if you will. If randomness is possible then you can claim that not everything is designed even in a designed universe right? Even if the laws are desgiend and add up to CSI 500+ bits that leaves room inside for randomness. First of all, I gave a clear way to identify the characteristic behaviour of intelligent agents, one that is empirically tested and shown to be reliable. That is central [even, decisive], and so the onward context of the points raised, in the tone now plainly visible, suggests a “red herring leading out to a strawman to be pummelled” strategy. Kindly, note that already I took time to point out that there is reason to believe that the physics of the cosmos is designed, and that this accomodates, chance, randomness and unpredictability [even in the case of determinstic laws, esp. where sensitive dependence on initial conditions obtains], thus also events that are characterised by chance or necessity, not by functionally specified complex information. And, the real issue on the table is whether cell-based life and its key components such as DNA are credibly shaped by chance + necessity only [whatever the underlying context for the origin of the cosmos as a physical entity], or show characteristic signs of design. They in fact show signs of design, through FSCI. That is what you need to address on the merits. Instead of addressing the central issue, however, you have now chosen to brand the discussion of how chance and related situations may arise in a cosmos that credibly exhibits design in the structure of its physics, “an escape hatch” i.e, you have elected to use emotionally loaded language to try to dismiss it; and that in a context where you have evidently failed to address seriously the central issue. When that is joined to the evidence of want of basic reading on easily accessible matters before firing off further remarks, then that suggests to the onlooker that, sadly, you seem to be more interested in trying to score debate points than in serious dialogue towards discovering the truth on vitally important matters. But then, maybe that is a false impression. [And BTW, if in q-phys there is a deterministic basis for random results, that simply underscores that chance can be a component of a designed cosmos.] 4] When don’t we see functionally specified complexity in the world? I’d just like to get you on the specific apparant contradiction I see here in that if the cosmos is designed how can anything “under” that not be designed? Let's underscore what is happening here:
RF: When don’t we see functionally specified complexity in the world? GEM: Quite often, as I exemplified in the case of the text string THIS TEXT STRING; as was shown in direct response to a previous question. Similarly, a long random string would not be FSCI: fhwifjshgfhirewgf . . . [Though, in turn, that can be embedded into a yet wider context which is functionally specified and complex, like this paragraph is. Rather like how dice-tossing which results in a practical case of random outcomes (even through the deterministic physics at work) may be a key component of an unquestionably designed game such as Monopoly.]
Second, as was also previously discussed, there is no contradiction in a designed cosmos that specific phenomena in it are chance-based and not themselves the result of specific designs. In short, sadly, we see here insistent – and too often triumphalistic -- reiteration of questions that have already been adequately answered. RF, please show us the courtesy of seriously interacting with what has already been put into play. [. . . ]kairosfocus
April 10, 2008
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StephenB: "I think you worry far too much about religious ideologues and far too little about theistic evolutionists." I wholeheartedly agree with you. TEs are IMO extremely dangerous, and, as I have said many times, I have no sympathy for their position. That's not out of mere unfairness. It is due to two important reasons: 1) TEs, being religious people, contribute to the false notion that the materialistic theories of darwinian evolution are perfectly compatible with religious faith. That's, IMO, completely false, and contributes to support the false credibility of darwinian evolution even among people who have a general view of reality which is totally incompatible with it, and to give to the general public the false impression that ID is some kind of bizarre and unnecessary religious extremism. 2)But the real reason why I deeply dislike TE is its internal inconsistency, its very low philosophical credibility, and the complete absence in it of any scientific relevance, and last but not least its cognitive arrogance. In that sense, I respect much more positions like Dawkins', which at least have some form of internal consistency and of passionate, although dogmatic, conviction. The like of Dawkins can at least be addressed, because they make some arguments, although wrong. See, for instance, Dawkin's famous "Methinks it's like a weasel" example, which has become a true triumph for ID. But TEs, very often, cannot even be addressed, so inconsequential are their arguments. What can you say to Heller's "argument" that ID is resurrecting the manicheistic heresy? I am not available to discuss at that level. And yes, darwinists at least usually stay away from this blog, or sometimes come just to provoke and go away, or (rarely) engage in really pleasant and constructive discussion. I think they are welcome in the third case, and they can be tolerated in the second (up to a certain point). But TEs seem to come here with a superiority complex, just to tell us: "Dear fellow believers, please recognize that you are confused,and that your pseudoscientific ramblings are not really necessary for your faith". Well, that I can scarsely tolerate. I have never come here to discuss or defend my faith. I have always come here to discuss science, or in some cases philosophy of science, or even more rarely the general implications of scientific theories for vast philosophical or religious problems. So, I am absolutely not interested in faith based arguments of any kind, be they from atheistic faith or any kind of religious faith. Especially when, as is the case of TE, those arguments are completely inconsistent, epistemologically confused, and essentially irrelevant.gpuccio
April 10, 2008
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-----Jerry: "I fail to see when it is right to abhor disingenuous positions by Darwinists and not have the same reaction to pro ID adherents when they too are disingenuous or support non truth. To me there is no difference and both should be objected to." A few months ago, several anti-ID trolls used this website to do the very thing that you abhor. They made it a point to link ID to Christian salvation, far beyond the point of absurdity. To me, it was obvious that they couldn’t possibly be serious, except as a parody on uneducated Christian fundamentalists. Every time the subject of a design inference came up, they would respond with something like, “yes, and we must use this to save souls.” It was a madhouse, but was also an anomaly. These were not our people; these were anti-ID zealots posing as ID sympathizers. They didn’t last long. Other than that, I haven’t noticed anything like it. Nor can I remember observing anyone crying out in protest against RS+NS or advancing mindless fundamentalist positions. If we could ever expect that problem to rear its ugly head, it would have happened when Allen MacNeill was here. As far as I know, it didn’t and hasn’t. I wasn’t as active on those threads as you were, but at those times that I did tune in, I noticed nothing but spirited intellectual dialogue. If mindless fundamentalism had been out in force, I think I would have picked up on it. I just don’t think it is a big problem on this blog. There are about 600 comments on the active record right now. Can you direct me to a single one that offends in ways that you describe? If you can’t find one blatantly fundamentalist comment in 600 opportunities, how serious can the problem be? On the other hand, a large number of TE’s visit this blog, and they always attack the ID position. Getawitness, larrynormanfan, digdug, religious prof and many others who hold a position or something like it---all were banned for being hostile or obtuse in some way. I believe that a huge percentage of our critics fall into that camp, maybe even more than half. In this current discussion, for example, we are analyzing the assault from Fr. Heller and other TE like thinkers who have assured us that ID violates the very notion of Divine causality. In other cases, they charge us with confusing design with final causes. This is serious business. Sooner or later we are going to have to face our real enemies, the ones who persecute ID in the name of God. There may be some Christian fundamentalists who make us look bad, but I sure don’t witness them hanging out here. I think you worry far too much about religious ideologues and far too little about theistic evolutionists.StephenB
April 10, 2008
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Haha, no doubt. A true genius outside the realms of math and science- which in many respects requires less novel genius because in math you have the blessing of dealing with proofs and truths and can mostly fallow the dots until an interesting question becomes evident. In literature you have to reach inside yourself deep for new and novel connections almost all the way through if you want to build a notable legacy or write anything of value. This is why Shakespeare was so great - like Cambrian Explosion his works just appeared on the scene is all their beauty and complexity dwarfing even the other geniuses around him at his time. Still to this day as was started with the insanity of Cantor, people seek to prove that he didn’t write his own plays. How could he? The argument goes, “they were too great!” Raised as a catholic some of the mystical elements in Shakespeare- as in Macbeth and in Hamlet when he sees his dead father and the audience is left wondering whether it’s an aberration or an apparition- the imagery of Shakespeare is loaded with significance that seems to incorporate the existential, transcendental, spiritual and earthly- in ways that scientists reach for but can only dream of. For example Hamlet's dialectic is “profoundly profound“- to use the only adequate word twice. "What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?" Written over 400 years ago- can we think of any better way of theatrically describing the significance of the battle between DE Materialism and ID? Is man an angel or an ape? Made of dust or of the divine? We all have both possibilities within us- but in which, does the absolute truth reside? Only in the character of Don Quixote by "Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra" (that I have read) can Hamlet be matched in its ability to reach for the essence of the human condition. Quixote of course deals with limits nobility and devotion- the other part of man- “the part that hopelessly tries” which stems from faith and belief. If you recall Don chooses to face his own execution over admitting that his love Dulcinea del Toboso “wasn’t the most beautiful woman in the world and in fact wasn’t fairer than even “any" woman. And what makes his choice even more heroic is the fact that the girl never even liked him. His commitment to his dream (while partly insane) frames what is in my opinion true romance which cant be found in any cold calculation of the physical- and of course true romance accompanies true love. The loss of the appreciation of true romance and true love is evident everywhere in today’s culture. Divorce rates show this manifestly. People no longer know what love is really about- they think its all fun and games a fact of biological life that they learned about in evolutionary biology or Freudian psychology-- “a necessary convenience”. I’m not a perfect person - not by far- but when people get up and exchange their vowels at the alter or any other place in life, the “for worse” part means something. Quixote does not simply speak about sensual love or romance but commitment to nobility as it stands even in the darkest of moments- A lesson of value that is never more timely. Perhaps Darwinists should go back and reread that book and realize that "the trying part of man" "romantic nobility" will never be found within the incomplete, insufficient and un-heroic theory that they foolishly place their devotion. The truth cannot be reduced to dust. Fade to black.Frost122585
April 9, 2008
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Frost When I took Shakespeare's Theater in college I thought it was pretty useless beyond filling a humanities requirement. Little did I know how much I'd grow to appreciate Shakespeare's wit and wisdom over the subsequent decades. Turned out it was the best useless humanity class I was forced to endure.DaveScot
April 9, 2008
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By the way Davescot, I loved your quote at 149, “There’s more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamed of in your philosophy.” - W.Shakespeare Sheer novelty by the great one- the wizard of words.Frost122585
April 9, 2008
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gpuccio (173): "Let’s go to your string "THIS TEXT STRING" repeated a million times. ... What can we say of the same string repeated many times? It is simple. The global complexity increases with the repetition, but ..." It actually does not increase with repetition so much as one might suppose. One way to measure the essential inherent complexity of a string of characters or symbols is to consider the minimum length of the instructions needed to recreate the exact string. For a string that has no pattern or compressible aspects to it (e.g. some random strings), the minimum length may be the original string itself or something close to it. In the case of "THIS TEXT STRING" repeated a million times you see right there that it doesn't require many characters to fully define the final string. This corresponds to your intuitive sense that simple repetition does not imply complexity. In a physical context, the regular repeating alternating patterns of the molecular structure of various materials would be an example that can be explained by chemical necessity. It is not really complex, even if one sees many repetitions of the same necessary pattern.ericB
April 9, 2008
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To RichardFry and gpuccio regarding whether pi is designed (as well as functionally specified), it would be appropriate to ask whether the value of pi is necessary. Design (as it is used within the context of a warranted inference to the influence of intelligent agency) implies contingency. If something has to be a certain way, we do not consider the inference to intelligent agency/design to be warranted from a scientific perspective. From within that perspective, it would be hard to think of anything more necessary than the value of an abstract mathematical constant. Certainly physical constants (and therefore the particular laws of physics) cannot exceed that level and do not seem even to attain it. Philosophically, one can speculate about realities that might have been otherwise. Even then, could pi's value be different? Pi is an abstraction, independent of physical reality. In any case, such speculations are reach beyond science. About designed things that include randomness, jerry gave the example of a pin ball machine. For another illustration, consider a snow globe -- a transparent globe containing a miniature scene, filled with water and loose white flakes resembling snow. Shake the designed globe and see the random pattern of the falling of the flakes.ericB
April 9, 2008
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kairosfocus, I fail to see when it is right to abhor disingenuous positions by Darwinists and not have the same reaction to pro ID adherents when they too are disingenuous or support non truth. To me there is no difference and both should be objected to.jerry
April 9, 2008
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RichardFry, you said "A complex structure can be designed, and yet allow random events, or designed events, in its context. The only example I can think of is a random number generator." Did you ever play a pin ball machine? There are zillions of designed systems that allow random events within it including DNA and micro evolution.jerry
April 9, 2008
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RichardFry: "The only example I can think of is a random number generator. Do you have a different example of such a structure?" Random number generators, indeed, are an example of amplification of variable uncertainty, but in essence they are deterministic, as far as I know, and indeed they are "pseudorandom number generators". Dembski has written about the difficulty of intentionally creating true randomness. But, if a chaotic system amplifies basic quantum uncertainties, the result can be really random (and, indeed, many natural systems could be of that kind, at least in part, including weather). Moreover, living beings are typically "far from equilibrium" systems, and nobody has ever demonstrated that strictly deterministic principles rigidly apply to them (although that's usually ssumed by materialists). Moreover, human behaviour and artifacts are, in a classical religious point of view, the product of human free will, and therefore not "designed" a priori in the unverse: that's a model shared by the majority of humanity, and I am not aware of any scientific confutation of that model, apart from a strict and dogmatic materialism. "The laws of physics define the properties of a (for example) given laser beam. Given that combination of factors, the laws of physics and the physical properties of the item generating the beam, would it not be true to say that the beam was designed due to the laws of physics defining it’s behaviour also being designed?" No, if the laser beam is generated by a man made machine, it is designed by humans "using" physical laws. Strict physical laws would never have producted it, without human intervention. The same can be said, for instance, of a computer. It was not designed by God, although the laws utilized in it were certainly designed by God (for those who believe that). "From what I’ve read Dr Dembski disagrees with you "I argue that the Explanatory Filter successfully avoids false positives. Thus whenever the Explanatory Filter attributes design, it does so correctly."" First of all I could very well disagree with Dembski on some points: he is not an absolute authority, even if I have the greatest admiration for him. But luckily, this is not the case. First of all, your example was of a false negative, and not of a false positive. And yet, I maintain that false positives can also exist, in theory. What Dembski is saying, IMO, is that, due to the cognitive choices he made for the explanatory filter, and especially the extremely low UPB, upon which is based the rejection of the hypothesis of randomness, false positives are virtually (that is, empirically) negligible, and on that I perfectly agree with him. But false negatives can certainly occur. Indeed, with such strict criteria as the UPB, false negatives are due to occur. "I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on that. I don’t see a difference between “functionally specified” and “designed” or just plain “set”." Then you must be the most extreme and dogmatic of IDists! The difference is as follows: "Functionally specified" means that an objective observer can detect a function in that information, obviously in some specific context. "Designed" means that an intelligent, conscious being designed it, in other words willfully originated the specific order of that information. Now, let's take the first word in your string example, THIS. It is certainly functionally specified in the english language, and yet, because of its low complexity, it is not necessarily designed. Let's consider the two following examples: a) I write here the word THIS. In this case, the word is both functionally specified "and" designed (by me). But still it does not exhibit CSI, because of its low complexity. b) You find the string THIS in the context of a mega string of one billion apparently random characters. In that case, the best explanation is a random origin of it. It is therefore both functionally specified "and" random. In both cases, the explanatory filter would not define the string as designed, because of the absence of CSI. In the first case, that would be a false negative, in the second case a true negative. So, I hope you can see that "functionally specified" and "designed" are not the same thing, at least not certainly in the ID model. If you want to use those words differently, that's up to you. "I had not realised ID had progressed so far. Only today I was commenting on the fact that Miss O’Leary did not want it taught in schools. Do you personally ID, now that it has a scientific empirical model is ready for “prime time” and teaching below the university level?" Again, it's simple. ID should be taught and discussed at the university level, and gain its due place in scientific thought, without persecutions and dogmatic preclusions. Below the university level, people should certainly be taught the "existence" of ID, not necessarily the details of the theory. If and when the detailed theory will be taught at that level depends on the relative role that a free, non dogmatically indoctrinated, scientific community will give to that theory. It is perfectly natural that, below university level, the most "popular" theories be taught in preference of the more controversial, and I would never affirm that, at present, ID is very popular in the scientific community, or that it is not controversial in it. That would be a simple lie. But no scientific theory (and ID "is" a scientific theory) should be "hidden", or falsely described as unscientific, or persecuted, only because the majority of the scientific community does not accept it.gpuccio
April 9, 2008
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A complex structure can be designed, and yet allow random events, or designed events, in its context.
The only example I can think of is a random number generator. Do you have a different example of such a structure?
No, very simply we don’t share the blind faith in complete determinism which seems to be the dogma of some.
I think you misunderstand me. Let me give you an example. The laws of physics define the properties of a (for example) given laser beam. Given that combination of factors, the laws of physics and the physical properties of the item generating the beam, would it not be true to say that the beam was designed due to the laws of physics defining it's behaviour also being designed?
And so? Nobody ever said that design detection cannot have its false positives and its false negatives.
From what I've read Dr Dembski disagrees with you
I argue that the Explanatory Filter successfully avoids false positives. Thus whenever the Explanatory Filter attributes design, it does so correctly.
That's from ARN.
the point is not that pi is designed, but that pi is functionally specified in the context of mathematics. It’s quite different.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't see a difference between "functionally specified" and "designed" or just plain "set".
I must restate that ID is a scientific empirical model, not a logical theorem of mathematics.
I had not realised ID had progressed so far. Only today I was commenting on the fact that Miss O'Leary did not want it taught in schools. Do you personally ID, now that it has a scientific empirical model is ready for "prime time" and teaching below the university level?RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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RichardFry: It is very easy to address your problems. 1) You say: "If as KF says the cosmos is designed, then logically everything in the cosmos is also designed." Why do you say that? There is no logical necessity of such a proposition. A complex structure can be designed, and yet allow random events, or designed events, in its context. The statement that, if the cosmos is designed, then everything is designed, is true only under a very strict, and completely unwarranted, assumption, that is complete determinism. There are at least two important exceptions to complete determinism: a) the random part of Quantum Mechanics (and I do believe QM still has probability at its core, notwithstanding your vague reference in a previous post). And please, notice that smal quantistics oscillation can very well be the base of great, macroscopic differences, especially in chaotic systems. b) human actions, for those who believe in free will, that means a very big portion of humanity, and certainly almost all those who believe that the cosmos is designed by a God. So, are we all in contradiction? No, very simply we don't share the blind faith in complete determinism which seems to be the dogma of some. 2) You say: "Could it not be argued that a set of digits that on the face of it had no obvious, specific function in any known context might later turn out to be the billionth and 10 digits of pi? And so it would have been wrong tionot consider it as CSI (as if the cosmos is designed so is the value of pi)" Certainly it could be argued. And so? Nobody ever said that design detection cannot have its false positives and its false negatives. All scientifics methods, especially if they include probabilistic considerations, have them. Are you suggesting to dimiss all science? In design detection, identifying the functional context is the crucial point. That's not necessarily easy, but it can be done. Functional specification is alway dependent on a context.In your example, the point is not that pi is designed, but that pi is functionally specified in the context of mathematics. It's quite different. So yes, you could miss the fact that a particular sequence of digits is part of pi, and so? That would just be a false negative, due to not recognizing a specification which, however, was there. That kind of errors is daily routine in science, and is anyway open to correction. 3) You say: "If a thing is designed the things it contains must also be designed!" Again, why in the world? See point 1). 4) You say: "You say “in the real world”. What is the non-real world you allude to then? Who lives there?". I apologize, I was not clear enough. I was not hypothesizing "unreal" worlds. My phrase: "CSI is a property which allows to infer design, because it is a type of functional complexity which cannot, in the real world, be generated by other causal principles (necessity, randomness, or a mixture of the two)." just meant that CSI cannot happen "empirically" (in the real world), while it is true that it retains a very low "logical" possibility. I specified "in the real world", meaning "empirically", "in a scientifically credible or relevant way" because many darwinists stick to the concept that, anyway, CSI "could" happen, because its probability is not zero. That's the infamous "hand of cards" argument, (ab)used by many relevant darwinists, which shows only epistemological confusion, or simple bad faith. Again (that was also a problem with Gary) I must restate that ID is a scientific empirical model, not a logical theorem of mathematics.gpuccio
April 9, 2008
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CSI is a property which allows to infer design, because it is a type of functional complexity which cannot, in the real world, be generated by other causal principles (necessity, randomness, or a mixture of the two).
You say "in the real world". What is the non-real world you allude to then? Who lives there? :)RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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double post! Sorry, delete 174 please somebody!RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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So, it could be true or not that everything is designed (I have no opinion on that), but still only a subset of observable entities would exhibit CSI, and allow to infer design.
But does that not lead to a contradiction? If as KF says the cosmos is designed, then logically everything in the cosmos is also designed. I realise you are not saying the cosmos is designed.
In other words, the million times repetition of the string does not seem to have any obvious, specific function in any known context.
Could it not be argued that a set of digits that on the face of it had no obvious, specific function in any known context might later turn out to be the billionth and 10 digits of pi? And so it would have been wrong tionot consider it as CSI (as if the cosmos is designed so is the value of pi). You said
The question if the universe as a whole exhibits CSI is at the base of the fine tuning argument. I personally believe in the fine tuning argument
but having just said
CSI is a property which allows to infer design
I don't see how you can also say
but still only a subset of observable entities would exhibit CSI
If a thing is designed the things it contains must also be designed!RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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