Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part I

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In response to an earlier post of mine, DaveScot kindly pointed out this website’s definition of ID. The breadth of the definition invites scepticism: ID is defined as the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. But is there really some single concept of ‘intelligence’ that informs designs that are generated by biological, human, and possibly even mechanical means? Why would anyone think such a thing in the first place? Yet, it is precisely this prospect that makes ID intellectually challenging – for both supporters and opponents.

It’s interesting that not everything is claimed to be intelligently designed. This keeps the phrase ‘intelligent design’ from simply collapsing into ‘design’ by implying a distinction between the intelligence and that on which it acts to produce design. So, then, what exactly is this ‘intelligence’ that stands apart from matter? Well, the most obvious answer historically is a deity who exists in at least a semi-transcendent state. But how can you get any scientific mileage from that?

Enter theodicy, which literally means (in Greek) ‘divine justice’. It is now a field much reduced from its late 17th century heyday. Theodicy exists today as a boutique topic in philosophy and theology, where it’s limited to asking how God could allow so much evil and suffering in the world. But originally the question was expressed much more broadly to encompass issues that are nowadays more naturally taken up by economics, engineering and systems science – and the areas of biology influenced by them: How does the deity optimise, given what it’s trying to achieve (i.e. ideas) and what it’s got to work with (i.e. matter)? This broader version moves into ID territory, a point that has not escaped the notice of theologians who nowadays talk about theodicy.

A good case in point is Christopher Southgate’s The Groaning of Creation, a comprehensive work written from a theistic evolutionary standpoint. Southgate is uneasy about concepts like ‘irreducible complexity’ for being a little too clear about how God operates in nature. The problem with such clarity, of course, is that the more we think we know the divine modus operandi, the more God’s allowance of suffering and evil looks deliberate, which seems to put divine action at odds with our moral scruples. One way out – which was the way taken by the original theodicists – is to say that to think like God is to see evil and suffering as serving a higher good, as the deity’s primary concern is with the large scale and the long term.

Now, a devout person might complain that this whole way of thinking about God is blasphemous, since it presumes that we can get into the mind of God – and once we do, we find a deity who is not especially loveable, since God seems quite willing to sacrifice his creatures for some higher design principle. Not surprisingly, religious thinkers complained about theodicy from day one. In the book I flagged in my last post, The Best of All Possible Worlds, Steven Nadler portrays the priest Antoine Arnauld as the critical foil of the two duelling theodicists, Nicole Malebranche and Gottfried von Leibiniz. Against them, Arnauld repeatedly pointed out that it’s blasphemous to suppose that God operates in what humans recognise as a ‘rational’ fashion. So how, then, could theodicy have acquired such significance among self-avowed Christians in the first place (Malebranche was also a priest) and, more interestingly, how could its mode of argumentation have such long-lasting secular effects, basically in any field concerned with optimisation?

The answer goes back to the question on everyone’s mind here: What constitutes evidence of design? We tend to presume that any evidence of design is, at best, indirect evidence for a designer. But this is not how the original theodicists thought about the matter. They thought we could have direct (albeit perhaps inconclusive) evidence of the designer, too. Why? Well, because the Bible says so. In particular, it says that we humans are created in the image and likeness of God. At the very least, this means that our own and God’s beings overlap in some sense. (For Christians, this is most vividly illustrated in the person of Jesus.) The interesting question, then, is to figure out how much of our own being is divine overlap and how much is simply the regrettable consequence of God’s having to work through material reality to embody the divine ideas ‘in’ – or, put more controversially, ‘as’ — us. Theodicy in its original full-blooded sense took this question as its starting point.

There was some enthusiasm for this way of thinking in the late 17th century. Here are four reasons:

(1) The sheer spread of literacy, connected both to the rise of the printing press and the Protestant Reformation (and those two events connected to each other, in terms of who operated the presses), meant that the Bible came to treated increasingly as instructions for living, as often happens today. So, the claim that we are created in the image and likeness of God was read as a mode of personal address: I am so created. This, of course, broke down the Catholic mode of Christian domination, whereby clerical authorities had modulated the biblical message for the situation at hand – e.g. by telling the faithful to treat certain aspects of the Bible as merely ‘symbolic’ or ‘metaphorical’. Theistic evolutionists routinely resort to this strategy today.

(2) On theological grounds, to deny that we are literally created in the image and likeness of God is itself to court heresy. It comes close to admitting an even worse offence, namely, anthropomorphism. In other words, if we presume that, even in sacred scripture, references to our relationship to God are mere projections, then why take the Bible seriously at all? 19th century secularisation was propelled by just this line of thought, but anti-theodicists like Arnauld who refused to venture into God’s mind could be read that way as well – scepticism masquerading as piety. (Kant also ran into this problem.) In contrast, theodicists appeared to read the Bible as the literal yet fallible word of God. There is scope within Christianity for this middle position because of known problems in crafting the Bible, whose human authorship is never denied (unlike, say, the Qur’an). One extreme result of this mentality was Thomas Jefferson’s attempt to edit the Gospels of all ‘superstitious’ elements, just as a Neo-Darwinist (say, UK geneticist Steve Jones) might re-write Origin of Species to reinstate Darwin’s fundamental principles in a firmer evidence base. To be sure, there is still plenty of room for blasphemy, but at least not for atheism!

(3) Within philosophy, theodicists, despite their disagreements, claimed legitimacy from Descartes, whose ‘cogito ergo sum’ proposed an example of human-divine overlap, namely, humanity’s repetition of how the deity establishes its own existence. After all, creation is necessary only because God originally exists apart from matter, and so needs to make its presence felt in the world through matter. (Isn’t that what the creation stories in Genesis are about?) So too with humans, so Descartes seemed to think. The products of our own re-enactment of divine thought patterns are still discussed in philosophy today as ‘a priori knowledge’. The open question is how much of our knowledge falls under this category, since whatever knowledge we acquire from the senses is clearly tied to our animal natures, which God does not share. But of course, the senses do not operate unadorned. Thus, by distinguishing the sensory and non-sensory aspects of our knowledge, we might infer the reliability of our access to the intelligent designer.

(4) There was also what we now call the ‘Scientific Revolution’, whose calling card was the fruitfulness of mechanical models for fathoming the natural world. A striking case in point was Galileo’s re-fashioning of a toy, the telescope, into an instrument of astronomical discovery. This contributed to the sense that our spontaneous displays of invention and ingenuity also reproduced the divine creative process: We make things that open up the world to understanding and control. This mode of thinking would start to kick in the scientific societies formed around the 18th century’s Industrial Revolution. One such influential society in the British Midlands, the ‘Lunar Society’, has been the subject of a recent popular book by Jenny Uglow.

Theodicy gets off the ground against these four background conditions once a specific mental faculty is proposed as triggering the spark of the divine in the human. This faculty was generally known as intellectual intuition – that is, the capacity to anticipate experience in a systematic and rational fashion. (Here’s a definition of intelligence worth defending.) We would now say the capacity to generate virtual realities that happen to correspond to physical reality, the sort of thing computer simulations do all the time, courtesy of their programmers. In the 17th century, people were especially impressed by the prospect of analytic (aka Cartesian) geometry capturing a rational world-order governed by universal laws of mechanical motion. So far, so good. But clearly something went wrong – what?

Tune in for the next instalment…

Comments
Hi Steve You wrote; "But you give away the game when you compare God with a painter, which I happen to think is quite apposite but tells against your general position. Painting is all about struggling against a resistant medium, such that the ‘skill’ of painting has to do with getting the paints and canvas to do things that they would otherwise not do...." Methinks thou dost misconstrue the intent of my analogy. Perhaps I was unclear. The illustration was the volitional act of "making" for the sheer joy of making, which we may observe in the painter or writer. The matter with which the maker works was dealt with in the prior sentence "In Christian theology God precedes and creates matter according to his plan (design?) and so is not constrained in His capacity to create by any inherent limitations of matter." Since the entire material world is made ex nihilo for His creative purpose there no "resistant medium." This is the "neo" in Christian neo-Platonism. BTW - I have a particular antipathy to the politically correct habit of using multiple pronouns he/she/it, I find it verbally awkward and fear it may be miscontrued as something scatological.dgosse
January 5, 2009
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-----pubdef: "And when the DNA lab comes to take the defendant’s spit, do you say “you’re going beyond the limits of science?” Science is the genus; ID is the species. You are confusing the two. No design inference is involved when someone’s identity is established by DNA evidence, any more than it is when someone’s identity is established by eyewitness testimony, any more than it is when someone’s identity is established by fingerprints. None of these things can be accomplished through a design inference. So, the scenario you present would not go beyond the limits of science, but it would go beyond the limits of a design inference. Inference about intelligent design vs. accident is similar to an inference about criminal intent vs. accident. Through the PROCESS of design inference, a crime can be detected, but a criminal’s identity cannot; through the PROCESS of design inference, an intelligent agent can be detected, but the agent’s identity cannot. Please make a note of that, since this same error keeps getting recycled.StephenB
January 5, 2009
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Steve Fuller:
How does the deity optimise, given what it’s trying to achieve (i.e. ideas) and what it’s got to work with (i.e. matter)?
If ID was to tackle this question it would be a remarkable broadening of its research program because the task would not only be to detect design but also to detect goals in design. When we look at human designs, in many cases, we can easily infer at least some goals from looking at what the design does. But goals can also be hierarchal. If we see an outboard motor we can infer that one goal was to provide propulsion in water. There may, however, be other goals. Why provide propulsion? Obviously it facilitates getting from one place to another more quickly. There could be economic goals for this, productivity goals (i.e. for fishing) or just for entertainment. The flagellum provides propulsion to a cell as well. Is its only goal to enhance survival or is it part of a larger ecological scheme as well? This brings in the broader question of the goals of the designer. Are all designs, as Dawkins would say, for selfish reasons or might there be an embedded teleology as well? If ID can detect features that seem likely to have been designed, I see no reason (although it may be very difficult) to not also try to detect the telic purpose(s) of the design. This is where ID could distinguish itself from non-teleological approaches, because if a hypothesis concerning goals could be formulated and validated through testing, it would further understanding of how evolution occurred and why. ID might even be able to make the predictions that critics so adamantly demand. Certainly this would be no easy task, but if the question of teleology was asked every time a design feature was detected, why not go for it? If there is a mind directedness to evolution, then there is also a goal directedness that might be detectable if looked for. Now as Steve pointed out there may be objections to the thought that we could "get into the mind of God" through science, but that very inclination has borne a great deal of fruit from the likes of Newton, Einstein, and others who felt this was not only possible but very inviting and stimulating. If humans were created in the image and likeness of God then our understanding of human activities might also be brought to bear on the inherent goals embedded in evolution. This could also mean that ID would need to embrace theology as a partner as well as other scientific disciplines such as psychology, sociology, ecology, etc.Steve Petermann
January 5, 2009
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I'm curious where the UD regulars stand with regard to archeology. Is it science? In that field, of course, researchers seek out objects that were obviously designed by humans, and then go an extra step, attempting to understand the motivations behind these creations. Perhaps the ID response is simply "no". Or, perhaps, the response is that "archeology infers purpose, but ID doesn't, and that's that".WeaselSpotting
January 5, 2009
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#23:
Forensic science is used when we need to determine the cause of death not who caused it.
That is just utter nonsense. The very same evidence supporting a conclusion as to cause of death is frequently used to convict a particular individual.
When the body exhibits incontrovertible evidence that it died of unnatural causes, a murder is inferred. Do the police and the courts turn to the forensic scientist and require that he declare who the murderer was? And, if he can’t then require he declare it an accident?
And when the DNA lab comes to take the defendant's spit, do you say "you're going beyond the limits of science?"
Let us leave the theology to the theologians
Why don't we leave the criminal trials to theologians also? pubdef
January 5, 2009
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Steve Fuller said: "Please tell me what is at stake when a Darwinist says something ‘appears’ designed and you say it is ‘really’ designed? The Darwinists can detect patterns in nature just as well as you can" You are missing the whole point of the basic argument and not stating it correctly. We do not say it is really designed. We say that it is possible that it was designed and that design should be considered as a possible alternative. The Darwinist makes an absolute statement and says that it is not designed even though it looks designed. And they have no basis for making that statement. Design is a definite possibility with ID but the Darwinist begs the question and says it is not design because it cannot be designed. The logical fallacy lies with them, not us. They have no basis for making that claim, certainly not empirical information and certainly not logic. If the Darwinist presented empirical evidence that what we both agree appears as designed, came about through naturalistic processes then we would take our tents down and break up camp. It would be over. What appears as designed came about through non intelligent processes. But such information does not exist for one let alone the plethora of instances of design appearances.jerry
January 5, 2009
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Dave,
exactly right. Science is about best explanations. Stevo doesn’t seem to know much about science so he wouldn’t know that bit about best explanations. If you take the current most widely accepted best explanation off the table that leaves the next best at the top of the heap.
sorry, Dave. Science doesn't work by a process of attrition. you have to have a viable alternative with tons of evidence in favor of it, not just evidence against the current theory. think of it as a hypothesis test, in which you are testing against a null model. If your experiment fails to reject the null, you can say that your hypothesis was not supported, but you can not say that an alternative hypothesis was supported. you have to test that alternative against a null as well.Khan
January 5, 2009
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Steve Okay. I'll play the Science of God game. Let's start out with a simple question. How many gods are there? Please support your answer with empirical evidence. I have no bloody idea how many there are. It could be zero to infinity. There is simply no empirical evidence from which to proceed to an answer.DaveScot
January 5, 2009
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Jerry, maybe now would be a good time to provide your definition of macroevolution, bc there is plenty of work done on macroevolution as defined in textbooks.Khan
January 5, 2009
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Granville Exactly right. Science is about best explanations. Stevo doesn't seem to know much about science so he wouldn't know that bit about best explanations. If you take the current most widely accepted best explanation off the table that leaves the next best at the top of the heap. In fact far more people believe the universe and life was designed than believe otherwise. It's just that higher education has been overrun by atheists, who preen themselves with the belief they're too smart to not recognize the universe is a big accident, who believe otherwise and they pretty much dictate what gets taught in lower institutes of learning. So really, to not put too fine a point on it, the problem is that the inmates are running the asylum.DaveScot
January 5, 2009
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uprightbiped, Kudos regarding #7,13. Dave Scott, "Is your position that we simply follow the evidence wherever it goes and merely hope that ID is vindicated?" "No shit. That’s what science is." Dave I could not agree with you more. If ID cannot cut it then so be it. To bring God into it is to leave science and do exactly what the Darwinsist have done which is IMO nothing more than metaphysics disguised as science. So now Fuller wants to do the same thing, apox on his house I say. Jerry, "Just what is evil?" First off I would argue that evil is not a "thing". Evil is a parasite , a lack of good, it has no ontological existence outside of good. Its like a shadow that cannot exist unless there is light. Evil in essence requires agency and moral choice. Sal Gal, "It was founded by a law professor who knows much more about rhetoric than about science." Actually he knows more about logic and the ability to distinguish what is science and what is metaphysics. As Johnson stated "I am not a scientist but an academic lawyer by profession, with the specialty of analyzing the logic of an argument and indentifying the assumptions that lie behind those arguments.This background is more appropriate than one might think, because what people believe about evolution and Darwinism depemds very heavily on the kind of logic they employ and the kind of assumptions they make" Vividvividbleau
January 5, 2009
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Sal Gal said: "The fact that you do not like a science does not mean that it does not exist. I do not like the idea of a science of God, but I do not deny the possibility of developing one. " Just as a point, I do not believe in a science of God or that a science of who designed what is of much use now. Maybe there is a possibility of developing one but it doesn't interest me at the moment. I am interested in this discussion not because it will advance the ID position but because it is interesting from a philosophical point of view. As usual no one has answered my "evil" question which is essential to any discussion of theodicy which has been tied to this question. What bothers me from what you said is that something that is called science in no way fits the definition of science and that is Darwinian macro evolution (origin of novel complex capabilities.) Do you agree? So if one is honest, they would have to come to the same conclusion I do or else defend their belief that it is science. No one has ever done it on this site and have it stand up. If one is using inductive inference, one is citing examples and then one makes a generalization based on the examples and the lack of contrary examples. In the case of Darwinian macro evolution there is not one example to cite so how is inductive reasoning applied in such a case. So there are no examples in Darwinian macro evolution let alone replications hence one can form an inductive conclusion.jerry
January 5, 2009
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Sal Gal Historically, the bias (assumptions) of mainstream science derives from belief in the God of Abraham. bullcrap - The ancient Greeks and Romans did science and largely didn't follow the GoA. Chinese, Hindus, Japanese, have been doing science for millenia and never followed the GoA. If your entire world history is confined to the Catholic church then yeah, Copernicus, Gallileo, Da Vinci, and a whole host of those like him professed belief in the GoA but I'd bet it was so they didn't get carried away to a Catholic dungeon, or worse, for heresy.DaveScot
January 5, 2009
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Steve, Re: making the positive case for ID. Before Darwin, almost everyone recognized the obvious, overwhelming, evidence for design in living things. Darwin proposed a really stupid, simplistic theory as an alternative to design; as the implausibility of Darwinism becomes more and more obvious with every new discovery in biology, its predecessor, ID, becomes stronger. You don't need to make a positive case for ID, ID is the default, common sense, theory.Granville Sewell
January 5, 2009
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...only a more powerful theory
Steve, may I ask, in your view what gives a theory power?Upright BiPed
January 5, 2009
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To Granwell Sewall, OK, let's accept your view of Darwinism. You're still only making a case for teachers saying that Darwin isn't the final word in biology. It's hardly a positive case for ID. The positive case has to advance an alternative explanation, and so you need to say something about the nature of the 'intelligence' in intelligent design. Put it this way: The objections to Dembski's design filter don't simply boil down to his failure to exclude chance and necessity as explanations. The objectors also don't believe that there is this distinct realm of 'design' to be defined. More evidence isn't going to resolve the matter -- only a more powerful theory.Steve Fuller
January 5, 2009
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Steve, The hostility I feel toward Darwinism is due to the fact that it is a very stupid, simplistic explanation for the development of life, there is no direct evidence that natural selection has ever produced any major improvements in species, yet it is taught in our schools as though it had been repeatedly verified by experimentation or observation, and had been established beyond reasonable doubt. What is so mysterious about that?? We may have many different views about what should be believed or taught as a replacement theory, and we can argue all day (and apparently will) about what the evidence tells us about the designer. But I for one would be happy if it were simply recognized in science classes that we don't yet know anything about the origins of species (or at least of orders, classes and phyla).Granville Sewell
January 5, 2009
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DaveScot, I have long believed that the U.S. courts have been correct in treating the Wall of Separation as two-way. But scientific bias comes from somewhere. And I believe that there neither are nor should be restrictions on the source. People who believe in God perhaps can develop a distinctive science based on that belief. I am not endorsing it. Historically, the bias (assumptions) of mainstream science derives from belief in the God of Abraham. Historians of ideas seemingly will argue themselves blue in the face over anything, but this point is not one of them. I first learned it in college, and it seems to me that students in public schools should learn it also. You probably have seen, "The unexamined life is not worth living." Well, I would offer that the unexamined bias is not worth applying.Sal Gal
January 5, 2009
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To DaveScot et al. I realize that the phrase ‘Science of God’ is not to everyone’s liking but at least it makes clear what is stake, namely, that there is a common causal factor essential to what we call ‘design’ in human, animal and possibly even machine realms. If there is no such thing, or one feels that one can be indefinitely sceptical about such a thing, then I’m not sure that a science of intelligent design is any better founded than, say, a science of blue things. In both cases, one is going on superficial similarities. Moreover, the hostility that just about everyone here expresses towards Darwinism would remain a mystery. Please tell me what is at stake when a Darwinist says something ‘appears’ designed and you say it is ‘really’ designed? The Darwinists can detect patterns in nature just as well as you can. If you’re not willing to theorize about the underlying intelligence, then you’ve got nothing to say that the Darwinists haven’t already said and/or are happy to agree with.Steve Fuller
January 5, 2009
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jerry, The fact that you do not like a science does not mean that it does not exist. I do not like the idea of a science of God, but I do not deny the possibility of developing one. Furthermore, if a well-developed science of God were to exist, I would advocate its inclusion in public education. I say to you again, there is no inductive inference without bias. A society of scientists operates with its preferred bias. The prevailing notion among IDists that "science done right" would reveal the Truth of design is incredibly naive. About a hundred years ago, William James emphasized pluralism in scientific belief. Today there is no way for an honest person who is familiar with the mathematics of inductive learning to deny that different groups of scientists may adopt different biases and arrive at different sciences. For certain IDists bent on "renewing" Western culture, however, it is not enough for me to say that they may develop their own science and present it alongside others in the public schools. Those people believe that they have cornered the market on Truth, and their claim that they just want their views to be included is a Big Fat Lie. They want to conceal the religious bias that they bring to science, and to teach children One Way. Given the present body of mathematical results on inductive learning, anyone who presents scientific learning as bias-free is a liar and/or a fool. Any meta-discussion of a science should explicitly identify the bias, and should address its advantages and disadvantages. (I remind everyone here that I openly admit that I choose to believe in creation, and that I refuse to pretend that "logic" or "evidence" proves I am right. In my opinion, empirical science is of greater utility in prediction and control of phenomena if it denies creation. Thus my scientific bias is utilitarian, and does not jibe with my overarching world view. It is, in fact, possible to be a methodological naturalist in science without being a philosophical naturalist in day-to-day life.)Sal Gal
January 5, 2009
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Steve, I'm having trouble following your deep philosophical arguments, but the impression I have (though perhaps I'm not reading you carefully enough) is you are saying that ID is becoming a purely scientific enterprise and needs to be more theologically oriented. This is a trap I don't want us to fall into, I agree with Dave Scot's comments.Granville Sewell
January 5, 2009
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Upright Biped, had I been invited into a forum in which the audience consisted mostly of ‘theistic evolutionists’, then I would not have bothered because they hold exactly your position — i.e. there may be an intelligent designer, but it is not possible to discuss such a person in scientific terms.
That is not my position and I never stated it as such. I do not say that there MAY be a designer, there IS a designer. What I say is that ID cannot give the identity of the designer as a God, or any particular God, if any God at all. That is a self imposed limit on the program that is fundamentally appropriate to the evidence; one that the current establishment is careless (to be kind) in enforcing upon themselves. I have no desire to remove one orthodoxy and have it replaced with another. IOW, if God has decided to allow you to believe in him or not, then far be it for me to usurp his decision and become the enforcer. As for being theistic evolutionist, I hardly think so. My comments, in general, have to do with the strategy of the debate. There are rules to opposing force; you ignore them when you decide to aggravate the debate with issues that you cannot defend. Take for instance, your last comment:
Painting is all about struggling against a resistant medium, such that the ‘skill’ of painting has to do with getting the paints and canvas to do things that they would otherwise not do. And I agree that, if there is a God, this is probably how s/he operates – that is, there is always a struggle and the result may be never quite good enough, which is perhaps why a change of thought and/or being is always on the horizon.
What part of the physical evidence leads you to think anything you state here? Do you have any idea how unpersuasive this is in a debate setting with a Darwinists who is systematically recounting the known morphological ancestry of fruit fly species from the Hawaiian Islands, or one harping over the tremendous quality of information coming out of Lenske’s laboratory, or perhaps even one stuck on the question of who designed the designer?
Why, in your view, should ID be promoted as a positive position in its own right? I feel Judge Jones breathing down your neck.
If I go outside and drop a ball up into the sky, should I care whether my experiment is perceived as a positive view for science? Or, should I simply regard the experiment as a direct falsification of the current understanding of gravity? More precisely, (and strictly personally) I couldn’t care less that ID is seen as either a positive or negative position - the bottom line is that materialistic causes cannot produce the organized functional nucleic sequencing that animates inanimate matter into living tissue. Period. The falsification of a theory must be held up because it doesn’t please someone’s sensibilities? Why take that bait?
I feel Judge Jones breathing down your neck.
Funny. JJ would never have the chance with me; that deal was a loser from the start.Upright BiPed
January 5, 2009
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Forensic science is used when we need to determine the cause of death not who caused it. When the body exhibits incontrovertible evidence that it died of unnatural causes, a murder is inferred. Do the police and the courts turn to the forensic scientist and require that he declare who the murderer was? And, if he can't then require he declare it an accident? Let us leave the theology to the theologianssmordecai
January 5, 2009
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Sal Gal I for one don't want a "Science of God" in public schools. The very phrase itself is self-contradictory. Science is about what can be examined either physically or mathematically. Anything else, while it may very well be an interesting and worthwhile area of study simply isn't science. ID is science. God is religion. Got it? Write that down!DaveScot
January 5, 2009
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----"It appears to me that Steve Fuller is attempting to help honest people elaborate an empirical science in which they proclaim, rather than hide under a bushel, their belief in God." Please provide evidence that any leader or any serious ID exponent has hidden his or her belief in God. We have covered this ground before. Dembski has publically make his declaration, so has Behe and Meyer. Jerry just acknolwedged his belief that the designer is the Christian God and I acknoledge the same. Those in the ID movement who do not agree with us are also on record. Where is the stealth Christian that disavowed his faith in the name of science? Contrary to the Darwinist fantasy, ID terminiology did not originate as a stealth attempt to cover for creationist beliefs. Go to the sidebar and read about the difference between creation science and intelligent design. They have both been around for over two thousand years.StephenB
January 5, 2009
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Sal Gal claims that s/he claims to know what motivated the author of No Free Lunch to include the word 'purchased' in the sub-title. However, it is a very precarious thing to try to claim to *know* what motivated another intelligent being in their choice of one among various options open to them. I never, ever would have thought that choosing 'purchased' was to hide the dirty word 'creation'. I would have thought that the metaphor 'purchased' was instead closely related to the idea of 'free lunch' in the main heading. I'm only guessing, though, because unless the 'creator' of the book engages in 'special revelation' on this issue, such theories are mere speculation. BTW, I like some of what else Sal Gal is saying, and I am still very interested in listening to what Steve Fuller is going to say.andrew
January 5, 2009
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Is your position that we simply follow the evidence wherever it goes and merely hope that ID is vindicated? No shit. That's what science is.DaveScot
January 5, 2009
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Steve It's not just this website's definition of ID. It's the consensus of many of the most recognizable names in the ID movement. I suppose you're free to make up any definition you want. God knows our critics all construct strawmen linked to religion because, well, religion isn't science so they get over in court that way and they get over in academia that way too. Who's side do you think you're on, Professor Fuller? Not mine that's for sure.DaveScot
January 5, 2009
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Sal Gal, A science that does not exists and is taught in schools is the science of macro evolution. The claim that it presently exists is a lie. So an undeveloped science is already taught in schools. Saying that it exists is patently dishonest. Should we use this model for a science of God even if it is undeveloped.jerry
January 5, 2009
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Upright Biped, had I been invited into a forum in which the audience consisted mostly of 'theistic evolutionists', then I would not have bothered because they hold exactly your position -- i.e. there may be an intelligent designer, but it is not possible to discuss such a person in scientific terms. I may misread you, but this is how you sound. Well, then, why not simply confine your concerns to the Darwinists who overstate what can be inferred from what you regard as 'the evidence'? You sound like you'd make a great troubleshooter. Why, in your view, should ID be promoted as a positive position in its own right? I feel Judge Jones breathing down your neck.Steve Fuller
January 5, 2009
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