Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Inferring onward, from design to designer

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One of the notorious talking points used by inveterate objectors to design theory, is that it is about stealth creationism. Closely tied, is the suggestion (or, assumption) that the claim that design inference on empirical sign only warrants inference to design as process is a dishonest stalking horse.

Given a long saddening track record of career and hobbyist objectors, unsurprisingly, that is false.

A simple case — and “case” is itself significant — easily shows why. About seven years ago, one night, fires broke out in two of Montserrat’s court houses, and did considerable damage (including to records).

After they were put out, investigators found signs of accelerants. For cause, they inferred arson. However, they were unable to infer onward to credibly suspected arsonists. Why? Want of a cluster of facts and logic, never mind that popular suspicion did attach to persons believed to benefit from loss of records. As any lawyer can tell, motive, means, opportunity backed up by evidence are the foundation stones on which a court reaches sound judgement. (Kangaroo courts do exist, but leaping to a predetermined conclusion without fair process is not sound process.)

In short, the design inference is much like the progress of investigation of an event: are mechanical necessity and/or chance adequate to explain, or is intentionally, intelligently directed configuration a more credible explanation, given signs s1, s2 . . . sn?

Let’s elaborate, using the per aspect design explanatory filter flowchart:

The per aspect design inference explanatory filter

We see here, that proof — or, warrant — of design as credible causal process is a case of showing warrant beyond reasonable doubt, with TWO defaults that point elsewhere: chance and/or mechanical necessity. That is, some combination of mechanical and/or stochastic laws acting on a plausible initial condition of a relevant substrate. That is, we here first consider the action of a dynamic-stochastic system, driven by forces and factors amenable to analysis on differential and/or difference equations with potential stochastic components. (And no, this is not “reification” of chance, we here appeal to things such as the random behaviour of molecules or the like.)

Illustrating, to refresh our memories:

Yes, it is when an explanatory model like this (up to and including conditions on our planet leading up to Darwin’s pond or the like, or whatever antecedents to the observed cosmos are suggested as leading up to the big bang singularity) FAILS, that design as process is on the table. Where, the ontological distance between design and designer is the same as between arson and credibly convicted arsonists.

Let’s add on the linked needle in haystack, islands of function, hill climbing challenges that are too often overlooked:

But, we are going somewhere with this, a case study on identifying a culprit.

Case in point, consider the text of this post, and by extension, that of the Internet, Libraries etc. We here have functionally specific organisation, manifesting associated information. FSCO/I for short, well beyond the 500 – 1,000 bit threshold that points to overwhelming needle in haystack challenge:

Reppert, has a key point; let’s refresh our memories yet again . . . it needs to sink in:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

Rationality requires this sort of freely arrived at inference, and is a sign in itself. That is, a blindly mechanical, dynamic-stochastic, composite computational substrate based on organised interactions of constituent parts — see the model summary above — cannot adequately explain designs. We are now in logic of being territory (which is a branch of metaphysics, literally beyond [the study of] physics . . nature), and the extended Smith Model is now on the table:

Yes, the prime suspect for designs emanating from certain familiar bio-cybernetic entities is a non-computational, non-algorithmic, supervisory oracle. A mind, in short.

Where, 2360 years ago, Plato pointed to such in his The Laws, Bk X:

Cle. . . . I should like to know how this happens.
Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular.
Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir.

Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods.

Cle. Still I do not understand you.

Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul’s kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body?

Cle. Certainly.

Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind.

Cle. But why is the word “nature” wrong?

Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise.
[[ . . . .]

Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second.
[[ . . . .]

Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it?

Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life?

Ath. I do.

Cle. Certainly we should.

Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life?
[[ . . . . ]

Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul?

Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things?

Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things.

Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer?

Cle. Exactly.

Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler?
[[ . . . . ]

Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]

In short, rationality required for design raises serious ontological issues. Accordingly, inference from design/arson to designer/arsonist is an ontologically laden exercise. We may empirically acknowledge the reality of designers, but once we ponder what enables ability to design, we are in logic of being territory.

Immediately, this shows the fundamental error in the notion that on evidence of signs of design we are only warranted to infer to human or human-like embodied designers. For, the rational roots of design point to our being mind over matter amphibians, bio-cybernetic entities with supervisory oracles that simply don’t work in the way dynamic-stochastic computational substrates do.

Those who imagine that such designs cannot influence a closed mechanistic-stochastic world, are similarly invited to ponder: why, apart from question-begging a priori imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism or its fellow travellers, do you think this?

Doesn’t the Casimir effect already point to observable quantum field influences that are below the limits of Energy-Time uncertainty relations?

Casimir effect summary {Fair Use}

So, why is it dismissed that we may have quantum-level influences on the brain etc as I/O in-the-loop controller? That’s why Scott Calef argued:

Keith Campbell writes, “The indeterminacy of quantum laws means that any one of a range of outcomes of atomic events in the brain is equally compatible with known physical laws. And differences on the quantum scale can accumulate into very great differences in overall brain condition. So there is some room for spiritual activity even within the limits set by physical law. There could be, without violation of physical law, a general spiritual constraint upon what occurs inside the head.” (p.54). Mind could act upon physical processes by “affecting their course but not breaking in upon them.” (p.54). If this is true, the dualist could maintain the conservation principle but deny a fluctuation in energy because the mind serves to “guide” or control neural events by choosing one set of quantum outcomes rather than another. Further, it should be remembered that the conservation of energy is designed around material interaction; it is mute on how mind might interact with matter. After all, a Cartesian rationalist might insist, if God exists we surely wouldn’t say that He couldn’t do miracles just because that would violate the first law of thermodynamics, would we? [Article, “Dualism and Mind,” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.]

Similarly, let us ponder Penrose and Hameroff:

It is argued that elementary acts of consciousness are non-algorithmic, i.e., non-computable, and they are neurophysiologically realized as gravitation-induced reductions of coherent superposition states in microtubuli . . . . Penrose’s rationale for invoking state reduction is not that the corresponding randomness offers room for mental causation to become efficacious (although this is not excluded). His conceptual starting point, at length developed in two books (Penrose 1989, 1994), is that elementary conscious acts must be non-algorithmic. Phrased differently, the emergence of a conscious act is a process which cannot be described algorithmically, hence cannot be computed. His background in this respect has a lot to do with the nature of creativity, mathematical insight, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, and the idea of a Platonic reality beyond mind and matter . . . . With his background as an anaesthesiologist, Hameroff suggested to consider microtubules as an option for where reductions of quantum states can take place in an effective way, see e.g., Hameroff and Penrose (1996). The respective quantum states are assumed to be coherent superpositions of tubulin states, ultimately extending over many neurons. Their simultaneous gravitation-induced collapse is interpreted as an individual elementary act of consciousness. The proposed mechanism by which such superpositions are established includes a number of involved details that remain to be confirmed or disproven.

Maybe, the time has come for some serious re-thinking. For, we have the freedom to think. END

Comments
Axel @120: Interesting comment. Thanks. I think these comments may be on the same page with your point: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/researchers-evolution-is-random-just-like-the-stock-market/#comment-679576 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-new-bug-for-darwins-finches-mating-disrupted-by-parasite/#comment-679515 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-describing-dna-as-software-doesnt-really-work/#comment-678913OLV
June 28, 2019
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'Inferring onward from Design to Designer' In primary school, we used to call Designer and Design, respectively, the subject and object of a sentence. I have a vague suspicion that the very words indicate that not to see the creative connection between the two words would have been laughed at by the most semiotically-challenged child in our class. But that is not really the problem, is it ? The problem is that the atheist indeed knows it all too well, and he has to be dragged kicking and screaming to face the truth : the Designer has to be an omnipotent God ; it's the 'nightmare' scenario that gave Richard Lewontin a particularly nasty bout of the vapours, as he uttered that clamorous, despairing cry none of us who were there will ever forget* ... to stop God getting his foot in the door. *I crave your indulgence for that small flight of fancy within the realms of poetic licence.Axel
June 22, 2019
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PS: As a reminder, Lewontin:
. . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
The ideological nature of the lock-out is plain.kairosfocus
June 18, 2019
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ET (& attn H and SA): One of the issues is why is it that there is so strong an imposition of a no design inference rule on origins. That there is a rule is obvious, with Lewontin only documenting it. Ironically, it lies in the strength of evidence pointing to design. For example, Dawkins had to admit that biology studies living entities that strongly appear to be designed (but in his view are not). Similarly, the very phenomenon of a cosmos undergirded by in significant part intelligible laws of operation (which are often mathematical) strongly suggests designing mind. And fine tuning points onward to the point where Sir Fred Hoyle -- an agnostic -- publicly discussed how the laws of physics seem to have been monkeyed with towards supporting C-chem, cell based life. A first answer is, that current origins studies were shaped in material part as an answer to and dismissal of natural theology, with Paley often playing the role of designated strawman. (I highlight strawman, as key aspects of even his opening watch argument are not properly discussed, e.g. his self-replicating watch anticipation of the von Neumann self replicator. [That road not travelled probably cost us a generation or two in advancement of cybernetics.]) As a result, we must expect entrenched, ideologically anchored opposition to the design inference. And in a context where the strength of signs supportive of inferring design as process of cause -- intelligently directed configuration [and yes, that's a boiled down definition] -- is obviously high, the rhetorical target will shift to locking out the consideration of the possibility of a designer. As I noted in 100 above:
1: Possibility THAT-X 2: Evidence THAT-X based process has occurred on signs __________________ 3: So, as 2 exists, once 1 is accepted, IMMEDIATELY: 4: If 1 then (as 2 is established) it is credible that-X. __________________ 5: So, if one is committed to rejecting 4, then one will resist 1. And indeed, due to the perhaps unconscious recognition of 2, then one may well project that accepting 1 is tantamount to concluding 4 and so may perceive and project question-begging to those accepting 1 (who are actually simply being open to a significant possibility). When in fact a closer look at the logic will show who is actually begging the question by resisting 1 inappropriately.
If you lock in the concept that the default of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity effectively can only be overturned by absolute warrant to the contrary then one has exceeded the degree of warrant obtainable for empirical science. Such selective hyperskepticism is patently fallacious, by way of imposing an evidential double standard. This is then ideologically compounded by setting up and knocking over a bogeyman caricature that paints those inclined towards theism or the like in the most lurid colours -- patently, prejudice and bigotry. So, let's cut the Gordian knot. Observe, what we see, starting with the living cell. I again clip 100:
Coming back to focal themes, cell based life is in key parts based on coded, algorithmic, stored digital information and associated molecular nanotech machinery. That has been increasingly established for coming on 70 years now. Such phenomena show language applied to automata, in cybernetic entities. Hence, biosemiosis etc. Language, is a characteristic function of intelligence of relevant order. It is a sign of intelligently directed configuration. In the history of study of life starting from the cell, that did not have to be the case, it was predicted [e.g. von Neumann’s kinematic self-replicator] and it was empirically discovered, then the relevant codes were elucidated, leading to a revolution in understanding the cell. We now know of interwoven, multiple level coding and function. So, we have established a powerful fact-cluster tied to embedding of language in the living cell. This moves us beyond abstract possibilities we should be open to, to signs pointing to intelligently directed configuration as process of causation. From this, we are epistemically warranted to make a secondary inference, to the credible presence of a relevant designing, language-using, intelligence. One capable of designing digital code using cybernetic systems. So, no, this is not question-begging a priori imposition, indeed, it is the very opposite. And, it is astonishing that we have to spell this out like this again and again and again. But then, Plato’s parable of the cave is a longstanding epistemological warning to our civilisation on the power of false enlightenment. Another cautioned: if the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness.
KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2019
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Dr. Behe has said he is OK with everything being setup from the big bang via trick pool shot-type scenario. Just like the pool shark knows where the balls will end up, so did God. That said, we did have a discussion here pertaining to interventions. The pool shot may be OK for making planets and solar systems but it doesn't seem relevant to life. Even Dr. Behe's Christian Bible says there were interventions where life is concerned. Again, all we can do is study the design(s) and all relevant evidence. Without direct observation or designer input that is the only way to make any scientific determination about the who, how, when and where. And that is why ID does not deal with those things. They come AFTER design is detected and being studied.ET
June 18, 2019
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Thanks, SA, for good, relevant responses.hazel
June 18, 2019
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SA, yes, Redmond is a locus, where designers came together to do some interesting designs that dominate the PC world. The final location of design is in minds there, as reasoning is implicated and mind raises questions of just where it is. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2019
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H, inferring where, when, how, who etc onward is a circumstantial and in some cases -- cf OP -- an ontological exercise. That is often going to be more like forensics and history with philosphy than standard science. Which is a point I made in the OP. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2019
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hazel:
I do note, but I knew this, that the genetic code and perhaps the genomes of specific organisms are the “what” is designed, I’m interested in ID hypotheses about the where and when.
That doesn't have anything to do with ID so there wouldn't be any ID hypotheses addressing it. And just how would we go about figuring out the where and when? Even with Stonehenge the when keeps changing.ET
June 18, 2019
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daves:
It’s just very difficult to keep the discussion on track with vivid characters such as ET and the Dionisio 5 around.
Especially when cowards interject their subjective nonsense. :razz:ET
June 18, 2019
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Hazel
That implies, maybe, that the only instance of design was the implementation of the original “software”, and after that the “software” took over and the designer was no longer active. Does that seem like a possibility to you?
Yes, I think some people will argue for that, so it could be possible. This notion follows from the idea that it would show a greater quality of intelligence to create a single, comprehensive design from a single loci and moment in time, than it would to have an on-going engagement in "design actions" over the span of history, for example, by tweaking mutations at each instance. For myself, however, while that idea of a single, master-plan of design and then and entirely autonomous universe following (where there are no additional design interventions) is problematic. But I base my objections on entirely theological grounds, not scientific (which makes sense when we discuss the activity of the immaterial designer). Philosophically, it would be better and more elegant to have a Grand Design at one moment which then plays-out in every detail over history. That's the Aristotelian or Deist view. The Designer made one perfect intelligent action and then stepped aside and is not involved again. But I think theology adds more insight that philosophy alone cannot provide. In my view, there is a collaboration between the Designer and the design-implementation. It's not for tweaking mistakes that occurred in the original design, but as an involvement of care and maintenance. I also think that part of the purpose of the Design is to reveal something about the Designer, and this is best done when the Designer shows moments of intervention, where humans can make some recognition. In a master-plan scenario, it is much easier to replace a Grand Designer with some single physical cause. That's what materialism does and that would thwart a plan by a designer to reveal something about the designer's identity. Again, I use theological data to support my conclusions on this.
And, of course, that still leaves the question of what was the “loci” of the original “software.”
Right, and I think in this case "loci" would not be the right word since it is a place or geography, but if the original software was designed from a timeless, spaceless, immaterial position, then we can't pin-point a loci for it. In the view that the designer shows indications of direct intervention into the process, we could speak of individual loci points where there is a stronger evidence of the presence of unique, intelligent acts.
And, the use of the broad term software leaves the question of what is the actual nature of what was originally designed: to what specifically does the term “software” refer?
I think ID would point to the Big Bang, for example. In a materialist view, it is supposed that the entire universe emerged from that singularity and all of the fine-tuning we see, and eventually life, came from it. Within life, we have information processing that runs off of something like software. In the materialist view, this software just accidentally emerged from the chaos of the Big Bang. In the ID view, the software of life came from a designing intelligence. Good questions and observations - thanks for posing them.Silver Asiatic
June 18, 2019
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I'll note that kf's post 100 and onward didn't really answer my questions at all, but rather were more the arguments for design, My question was about his comments about where design was implemented. To review, I wrote,
This point mentions the “relevant point” and 5e the “relevant loci”. Can you give me some examples, or at least hypotheses, about what these relevant points are? That is, accepting the truth of design, are there specific points in time or space during which the design has been implemented? Is there any information about this?" I do note, but I knew this, that the genetic code and perhaps the genomes of specific organisms are the "what" is designed, I'm interested in ID hypotheses about the where and when.
hazel
June 18, 2019
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SA writes, "Although, it can be argued that the design does not really exist until it is implemented, since the idea in the mind can change as it is being worked out in real life." I agree with this.hazel
June 18, 2019
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KF
SA, the relevant locus of action by designing intelligence would be the equivalent of Redmond for Windows. Yes, as we deal with self-replicating systems (discussed in Paley c 1804!) what we observe points back to the point of origin. KF
Interesting. Redmond is a geographical spot where design was implemented, although we don't know if the ideas for Windows were really created there. The loci for the software itself, I wouldn't think is Redmond, but rather inside of the intelligence of the human beings who created it. We don't know where they were when they thought of an idea for something. For me, the idea is the design, not the implementation of the idea. Although, it can be argued that the design does not really exist until it is implemented, since the idea in the mind can change as it is being worked out in real life.Silver Asiatic
June 18, 2019
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KF, It's just very difficult to keep the discussion on track with vivid characters such as ET and the Dionisio 5 around. :)daveS
June 18, 2019
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SNIP -- I am applying edits to keep to focus. KFET
June 18, 2019
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SNIP, we will focus. PS: FYI, AmHD -- a word that got kidnapped and turned into its opposite:
bul·ly 1 (bo?ol??) n. pl. bul·lies 1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people. 2. A hired ruffian; a thug. 3. A pimp. 4. Archaic A fine person. 5. Archaic A sweetheart. v. bul·lied, bul·ly·ing, bul·lies v.tr. 1. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner. See Synonyms at intimidate. 2. To make (one's way) aggressively. v.intr. 1. To behave like a bully. 2. To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation: "They bully into line at the gas pump" (Martin Gottfried). adj. Excellent; splendid: did a bully job of persuading the members. interj. Used to express approval: Bully for you! [Possibly from Middle Dutch boele, sweetheart, probably alteration of broeder, brother; see bhr?ter- in Indo-European roots.]
Brother Brian
June 18, 2019
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ET, yes, adaptation within a body plan, but notice the challenges to incrementalism imposed by "fitness" function ruggedness and deep isolation of islands of function in config spaces. See infographic in OP. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2019
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H, we deal with both origin of cell based life [genome ~ 100 - 1,000 kbases] and of body plans, which are radically isolated in config spaces, requiring ~ 10 - 100+ mn bases. This is up to and including our own human body plan. That is, design spans the "tree" -- better, forest -- of life, from roots to us. Beyond, lies a credibly fine tuned cosmos that is at a deeply isolated operation point that enables cell based life. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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SA, the relevant locus of action by designing intelligence would be the equivalent of Redmond for Windows. Yes, as we deal with self-replicating systems (discussed in Paley c 1804!) what we observe points back to the point of origin. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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H, the design inference has no interest in cases where design does not stand out on strong signs. That's why the thresholds for FSCO/I are set at ridiculous levels. In effect, turn every atom in the sol system or observed cosmos into an observer, equipped respectively with a string of 500 or 1,000 coins, or the equivalent in a paramagnetic substance. Flip and observe at fast chem rxn rates, ~ 10^12 - 15 times/s. We then see that a config space of 500 - 1,000+ bits is effectively unsearchable by relevant scope of resources available in our sol system or cosmos: too much haystack to be searched, it matters not how isolated the needles are if one cannot effectively search for same. This is WLOG, as bits can be extended to any relevant case (think, description languages and CAD code). Functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information beyond the threshold is a strong, empirically reliable sign of design. Here, involving language, algorithms and execution machinery. Where we have already demonstrated our own designs. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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H, The issue is start-points for reasoning. If one is (generally, ideologically) unwilling to entertain the possibility of an intelligence with relevant capabilities to configure components towards a goal, then one will resist any and all evidence that may be found, regardless of how it has been found to be a reliable sign of design. Ideological lockout like that is a manifestation of the fallacy of the closed mind, and may reflect indoctrination. In a highly relevant comparison, if one is not open to the possibility of an arsonist, one will never acknowledge the import of signs such as accelerants. Over many years of exchanges, it has been quite clear that ideological lockout has been institutionally and personally entrenched in too many scientific, academic, educational, media and policy institutions up to and including governments. This manifests in explicit or implicit commitment to or fellow traveller enabling of evolutionary materialistic scientism and associated impositions. Being open to a possibility that X is not equal to assuming that X. It simply rejects the improper epistemological and logical stand, NOT-X. If NOT-X then, NOT-X immediately, without regard to empirical evidence. And, in this case, in direct disregard to readily shown self-referential incoherence and undermining of key intellectual and general duties, starting with truth, right reason, prudence, fairness/justice etc. Evolutionary materialistic scientism is inescapably self-falsifying and antithetical to sound rationality. On this topic, in also constitutes institutionally embedded question-begging. Absurd consequences are accelerating all over our civilisation. I note, as there is a combination:
1: Possibility THAT-X 2: Evidence THAT-X based process has occurred on signs __________________ 3: So, as 2 exists, once 1 is accepted, IMMEDIATELY: 4: If 1 then (as 2 is established) it is credible that-X. __________________ 5: So, if one is committed to rejecting 4, then one will resist 1. And indeed, due to the perhaps unconscious recognition of 2, then one may well project that accepting 1 is tantamount to concluding 4 and so may perceive and project question-begging to those accepting 1 (who are actually simply being open to a significant possibility). When in fact a closer look at the logic will show who is actually begging the question by resisting 1 inappropriately.
Coming back to focal themes, cell based life is in key parts based on coded, algorithmic, stored digital information and associated molecular nanotech machinery. That has been increasingly established for coming on 70 years now. Such phenomena show language applied to automata, in cynernetic entities. Hence, biosemiosis etc. Language, is a characteristic function of intelligence of relevant order. It is a sign of intelligently directed configuration. In the history of study of life starting from the cell, that did not have to be the case, it was predicted [e.g. von Neumann's kinematic self-replicator] and it was empirically discovered, then the relevant codes were elucidated, leading to a revolution in understanding the cell. We now know of interwoven, multiple level coding and function. So, we have established a powerful fact-cluster tied to embedding of language in the living cell. This moves us beyond abstract possibilities we should be open to, to signs pointing to intelligently directed configuration as process of causation. From this, we are epistemically warranted to make a secondary inference, to the credible presence of a relevant designing, language-using, intelligence. One capable of designing digital code using cybernetic systems. So, no, this is not question-begging a priori imposition, indeed, it is the very opposite. And, it is astonishing that we have to spell this out like this again and again and again. But then, Plato's parable of the cave is a longstanding epistemological warning to our civilisation on the power of false enlightenment. Another cautioned: if the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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For hazel:
He [the Designer] indeed seems to have “carefully crafted” information in His species giving them the ability to respond to environmental stimuli to alter their own genome to adapt to new environments. He then evidently let them wander where they will with the ability to adapt.- Dr. Lee Spetner “the Evolution Revolution” p 108
Organisms were intelligently designed with the ability to adapt and evolve.ET
June 17, 2019
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Yes, SA, that's a good point, and I understand it. That implies, maybe, that the only instance of design was the implementation of the original "software", and after that the "software" took over and the designer was no longer active. Does that seem like a possibility to you? And, of course, that still leaves the question of what was the "loci" of the original "software." And, the use of the broad term software leaves the question of what is the actual nature of what was originally designed: to what specifically does the term "software" refer? Do you have thoughts on these questions?hazel
June 17, 2019
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Hazel
Don’t we have to accept that intelligences capable of so acting are definitely present at relevant loci? That is, if design happens, isn’t it a logical necessity that the intelligences capable of implementing the design must have been present at that point?
Your question is in regards to "loci" and "presence". Is it necessary that there is an intelligence "present at a loci"? Well, not really. We can infer that an intelligence created a software function but the creating intelligence is not present at the loci of the software function but rather has a higher-order design that created the architecture. So, we observe evidence of intelligence in the complex functions of cellular machinery, but the intelligence may have been actually present in a higher order function that created the cell.Silver Asiatic
June 17, 2019
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Or is it perhaps that design is implemented continuously such that the implementation is never visibly different from the ongoing non-design even though the result of design is inferable. Or it it that this ongoing yet undetectable implementation happens just occasionally? Are there design theorists who have speculated on these things, and if so, offered any ways to investigate what might be true?hazel
June 17, 2019
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Way back at the beginning of this thread, I asked
In an effort to clearly understand, I’d like to know if this is an accurate statement 1. Once one infers design, then it is reasonable to infer that an intelligent designer exists, or has existed, but 2. the inference of the existence of a designer is separate from the issue of identifying that designer.
At 5, points e and g, kf said, I think, that what I had written was accurate. At the time I had some further questions, but the discussion went off in other directions, but I’ll return a bit. At 5e, kf wrote, “However, to be willing to infer to design one has to be willing to accept that intelligences capable of so acting are possibly present at relevant loci.” The word “possibly” confuses me. Don’t we have to accept that intelligences capable of so acting are definitely present at relevant loci? That is, if design happens, isn’t it a logical necessity that the intelligences capable of implementing the design must have been present at that point? That is, kf, why the word “possibly”? Also, at 5g, kf wrote, “On adequate evidence of design as key causal process, then it is a secondary inference that an intelligence of adequate capability was present at the relevant point. This point mentions the “relevant point” and 5e the “relevant loci”. Can you give me some examples, or at least hypotheses, about what these relevant points are? That is, accepting the truth of design, are there specific points in time or space during which the design has been implemented? Is there any information about this?hazel
June 17, 2019
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So I will continue to expose anyone who posts ID PRATTs and nonsense. And they will continue to cry foul because they definitely cannot defend their trope.ET
June 17, 2019
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SNIP -- do not feed the distraction.ET
June 17, 2019
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SNIP, off topic. Patience with side tracks exhausted. KF PS: Bullying is not equal to ill advised or distractive commentary, unless it crosses the line of personal attack, intimidation and willful harm to innocent reputation.Brother Brian
June 17, 2019
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