Inferring onward, from design to designer

Axel @120: Interesting comment. Thanks. I think these comments may be on the same page with your point: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/researchers-evolution-is-random-just-like-the-stock-market/#comment-679576 https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/evolution/a-new-bug-for-darwins-finches-mating-disrupted-by-parasite/#comment-679515 https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/why-describing-dna-as-software-doesnt-really-work/#comment-678913 OLV

'Inferring onward from Design to Designer' In primary school, we used to call Designer and Design, respectively, the subject and object of a sentence. I have a vague suspicion that the very words indicate that not to see the creative connection between the two words would have been laughed at by the most semiotically-challenged child in our class. But that is not really the problem, is it ? The problem is that the atheist indeed knows it all too well, and he has to be dragged kicking and screaming to face the truth : the Designer has to be an omnipotent God ; it's the 'nightmare' scenario that gave Richard Lewontin a particularly nasty bout of the vapours, as he uttered that clamorous, despairing cry none of us who were there will ever forget* ... to stop God getting his foot in the door. *I crave your indulgence for that small flight of fancy within the realms of poetic licence. Axel

PS: As a reminder, Lewontin:

. . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads

[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]

we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,

[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]

and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth

[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]

. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident

[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]

that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]

The ideological nature of the lock-out is plain. kairosfocus

ET (& attn H and SA): One of the issues is why is it that there is so strong an imposition of a no design inference rule on origins. That there is a rule is obvious, with Lewontin only documenting it. Ironically, it lies in the strength of evidence pointing to design. For example, Dawkins had to admit that biology studies living entities that strongly appear to be designed (but in his view are not). Similarly, the very phenomenon of a cosmos undergirded by in significant part intelligible laws of operation (which are often mathematical) strongly suggests designing mind. And fine tuning points onward to the point where Sir Fred Hoyle -- an agnostic -- publicly discussed how the laws of physics seem to have been monkeyed with towards supporting C-chem, cell based life. A first answer is, that current origins studies were shaped in material part as an answer to and dismissal of natural theology, with Paley often playing the role of designated strawman. (I highlight strawman, as key aspects of even his opening watch argument are not properly discussed, e.g. his self-replicating watch anticipation of the von Neumann self replicator. [That road not travelled probably cost us a generation or two in advancement of cybernetics.]) As a result, we must expect entrenched, ideologically anchored opposition to the design inference. And in a context where the strength of signs supportive of inferring design as process of cause -- intelligently directed configuration [and yes, that's a boiled down definition] -- is obviously high, the rhetorical target will shift to locking out the consideration of the possibility of a designer. As I noted in 100 above:

1: Possibility THAT-X 2: Evidence THAT-X based process has occurred on signs __________________ 3: So, as 2 exists, once 1 is accepted, IMMEDIATELY: 4: If 1 then (as 2 is established) it is credible that-X. __________________ 5: So, if one is committed to rejecting 4, then one will resist 1. And indeed, due to the perhaps unconscious recognition of 2, then one may well project that accepting 1 is tantamount to concluding 4 and so may perceive and project question-begging to those accepting 1 (who are actually simply being open to a significant possibility). When in fact a closer look at the logic will show who is actually begging the question by resisting 1 inappropriately.

If you lock in the concept that the default of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity effectively can only be overturned by absolute warrant to the contrary then one has exceeded the degree of warrant obtainable for empirical science. Such selective hyperskepticism is patently fallacious, by way of imposing an evidential double standard. This is then ideologically compounded by setting up and knocking over a bogeyman caricature that paints those inclined towards theism or the like in the most lurid colours -- patently, prejudice and bigotry. So, let's cut the Gordian knot. Observe, what we see, starting with the living cell. I again clip 100:

Coming back to focal themes, cell based life is in key parts based on coded, algorithmic, stored digital information and associated molecular nanotech machinery. That has been increasingly established for coming on 70 years now. Such phenomena show language applied to automata, in cybernetic entities. Hence, biosemiosis etc. Language, is a characteristic function of intelligence of relevant order. It is a sign of intelligently directed configuration. In the history of study of life starting from the cell, that did not have to be the case, it was predicted [e.g. von Neumann’s kinematic self-replicator] and it was empirically discovered, then the relevant codes were elucidated, leading to a revolution in understanding the cell. We now know of interwoven, multiple level coding and function. So, we have established a powerful fact-cluster tied to embedding of language in the living cell. This moves us beyond abstract possibilities we should be open to, to signs pointing to intelligently directed configuration as process of causation. From this, we are epistemically warranted to make a secondary inference, to the credible presence of a relevant designing, language-using, intelligence. One capable of designing digital code using cybernetic systems. So, no, this is not question-begging a priori imposition, indeed, it is the very opposite. And, it is astonishing that we have to spell this out like this again and again and again. But then, Plato’s parable of the cave is a longstanding epistemological warning to our civilisation on the power of false enlightenment. Another cautioned: if the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness.

KF kairosfocus

Dr. Behe has said he is OK with everything being setup from the big bang via trick pool shot-type scenario. Just like the pool shark knows where the balls will end up, so did God. That said, we did have a discussion here pertaining to interventions. The pool shot may be OK for making planets and solar systems but it doesn't seem relevant to life. Even Dr. Behe's Christian Bible says there were interventions where life is concerned. Again, all we can do is study the design(s) and all relevant evidence. Without direct observation or designer input that is the only way to make any scientific determination about the who, how, when and where. And that is why ID does not deal with those things. They come AFTER design is detected and being studied. ET

Thanks, SA, for good, relevant responses. hazel

SA, yes, Redmond is a locus, where designers came together to do some interesting designs that dominate the PC world. The final location of design is in minds there, as reasoning is implicated and mind raises questions of just where it is. KF kairosfocus

H, inferring where, when, how, who etc onward is a circumstantial and in some cases -- cf OP -- an ontological exercise. That is often going to be more like forensics and history with philosphy than standard science. Which is a point I made in the OP. KF kairosfocus

hazel:

I do note, but I knew this, that the genetic code and perhaps the genomes of specific organisms are the “what” is designed, I’m interested in ID hypotheses about the where and when.

That doesn't have anything to do with ID so there wouldn't be any ID hypotheses addressing it. And just how would we go about figuring out the where and when? Even with Stonehenge the when keeps changing. ET

daves:

It’s just very difficult to keep the discussion on track with vivid characters such as ET and the Dionisio 5 around.

Especially when cowards interject their subjective nonsense. :razz: ET

Hazel

That implies, maybe, that the only instance of design was the implementation of the original “software”, and after that the “software” took over and the designer was no longer active. Does that seem like a possibility to you?

Yes, I think some people will argue for that, so it could be possible. This notion follows from the idea that it would show a greater quality of intelligence to create a single, comprehensive design from a single loci and moment in time, than it would to have an on-going engagement in "design actions" over the span of history, for example, by tweaking mutations at each instance. For myself, however, while that idea of a single, master-plan of design and then and entirely autonomous universe following (where there are no additional design interventions) is problematic. But I base my objections on entirely theological grounds, not scientific (which makes sense when we discuss the activity of the immaterial designer). Philosophically, it would be better and more elegant to have a Grand Design at one moment which then plays-out in every detail over history. That's the Aristotelian or Deist view. The Designer made one perfect intelligent action and then stepped aside and is not involved again. But I think theology adds more insight that philosophy alone cannot provide. In my view, there is a collaboration between the Designer and the design-implementation. It's not for tweaking mistakes that occurred in the original design, but as an involvement of care and maintenance. I also think that part of the purpose of the Design is to reveal something about the Designer, and this is best done when the Designer shows moments of intervention, where humans can make some recognition. In a master-plan scenario, it is much easier to replace a Grand Designer with some single physical cause. That's what materialism does and that would thwart a plan by a designer to reveal something about the designer's identity. Again, I use theological data to support my conclusions on this.

And, of course, that still leaves the question of what was the “loci” of the original “software.”

Right, and I think in this case "loci" would not be the right word since it is a place or geography, but if the original software was designed from a timeless, spaceless, immaterial position, then we can't pin-point a loci for it. In the view that the designer shows indications of direct intervention into the process, we could speak of individual loci points where there is a stronger evidence of the presence of unique, intelligent acts.

And, the use of the broad term software leaves the question of what is the actual nature of what was originally designed: to what specifically does the term “software” refer?

I think ID would point to the Big Bang, for example. In a materialist view, it is supposed that the entire universe emerged from that singularity and all of the fine-tuning we see, and eventually life, came from it. Within life, we have information processing that runs off of something like software. In the materialist view, this software just accidentally emerged from the chaos of the Big Bang. In the ID view, the software of life came from a designing intelligence. Good questions and observations - thanks for posing them. Silver Asiatic

I'll note that kf's post 100 and onward didn't really answer my questions at all, but rather were more the arguments for design, My question was about his comments about where design was implemented. To review, I wrote,

This point mentions the “relevant point” and 5e the “relevant loci”. Can you give me some examples, or at least hypotheses, about what these relevant points are? That is, accepting the truth of design, are there specific points in time or space during which the design has been implemented? Is there any information about this?" I do note, but I knew this, that the genetic code and perhaps the genomes of specific organisms are the "what" is designed, I'm interested in ID hypotheses about the where and when.

hazel

SA writes, "Although, it can be argued that the design does not really exist until it is implemented, since the idea in the mind can change as it is being worked out in real life." I agree with this. hazel

KF

SA, the relevant locus of action by designing intelligence would be the equivalent of Redmond for Windows. Yes, as we deal with self-replicating systems (discussed in Paley c 1804!) what we observe points back to the point of origin. KF

Interesting. Redmond is a geographical spot where design was implemented, although we don't know if the ideas for Windows were really created there. The loci for the software itself, I wouldn't think is Redmond, but rather inside of the intelligence of the human beings who created it. We don't know where they were when they thought of an idea for something. For me, the idea is the design, not the implementation of the idea. Although, it can be argued that the design does not really exist until it is implemented, since the idea in the mind can change as it is being worked out in real life. Silver Asiatic

KF, It's just very difficult to keep the discussion on track with vivid characters such as ET and the Dionisio 5 around. :) daveS

SNIP -- I am applying edits to keep to focus. KF ET

SNIP, we will focus. PS: FYI, AmHD -- a word that got kidnapped and turned into its opposite:

bul·ly 1 (bo?ol??) n. pl. bul·lies 1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people. 2. A hired ruffian; a thug. 3. A pimp. 4. Archaic A fine person. 5. Archaic A sweetheart. v. bul·lied, bul·ly·ing, bul·lies v.tr. 1. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner. See Synonyms at intimidate. 2. To make (one's way) aggressively. v.intr. 1. To behave like a bully. 2. To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation: "They bully into line at the gas pump" (Martin Gottfried). adj. Excellent; splendid: did a bully job of persuading the members. interj. Used to express approval: Bully for you! [Possibly from Middle Dutch boele, sweetheart, probably alteration of broeder, brother; see bhr?ter- in Indo-European roots.]

Brother Brian

ET, yes, adaptation within a body plan, but notice the challenges to incrementalism imposed by "fitness" function ruggedness and deep isolation of islands of function in config spaces. See infographic in OP. KF kairosfocus

H, we deal with both origin of cell based life [genome ~ 100 - 1,000 kbases] and of body plans, which are radically isolated in config spaces, requiring ~ 10 - 100+ mn bases. This is up to and including our own human body plan. That is, design spans the "tree" -- better, forest -- of life, from roots to us. Beyond, lies a credibly fine tuned cosmos that is at a deeply isolated operation point that enables cell based life. KF kairosfocus

SA, the relevant locus of action by designing intelligence would be the equivalent of Redmond for Windows. Yes, as we deal with self-replicating systems (discussed in Paley c 1804!) what we observe points back to the point of origin. KF kairosfocus

H, the design inference has no interest in cases where design does not stand out on strong signs. That's why the thresholds for FSCO/I are set at ridiculous levels. In effect, turn every atom in the sol system or observed cosmos into an observer, equipped respectively with a string of 500 or 1,000 coins, or the equivalent in a paramagnetic substance. Flip and observe at fast chem rxn rates, ~ 10^12 - 15 times/s. We then see that a config space of 500 - 1,000+ bits is effectively unsearchable by relevant scope of resources available in our sol system or cosmos: too much haystack to be searched, it matters not how isolated the needles are if one cannot effectively search for same. This is WLOG, as bits can be extended to any relevant case (think, description languages and CAD code). Functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information beyond the threshold is a strong, empirically reliable sign of design. Here, involving language, algorithms and execution machinery. Where we have already demonstrated our own designs. KF kairosfocus

H, The issue is start-points for reasoning. If one is (generally, ideologically) unwilling to entertain the possibility of an intelligence with relevant capabilities to configure components towards a goal, then one will resist any and all evidence that may be found, regardless of how it has been found to be a reliable sign of design. Ideological lockout like that is a manifestation of the fallacy of the closed mind, and may reflect indoctrination. In a highly relevant comparison, if one is not open to the possibility of an arsonist, one will never acknowledge the import of signs such as accelerants. Over many years of exchanges, it has been quite clear that ideological lockout has been institutionally and personally entrenched in too many scientific, academic, educational, media and policy institutions up to and including governments. This manifests in explicit or implicit commitment to or fellow traveller enabling of evolutionary materialistic scientism and associated impositions. Being open to a possibility that X is not equal to assuming that X. It simply rejects the improper epistemological and logical stand, NOT-X. If NOT-X then, NOT-X immediately, without regard to empirical evidence. And, in this case, in direct disregard to readily shown self-referential incoherence and undermining of key intellectual and general duties, starting with truth, right reason, prudence, fairness/justice etc. Evolutionary materialistic scientism is inescapably self-falsifying and antithetical to sound rationality. On this topic, in also constitutes institutionally embedded question-begging. Absurd consequences are accelerating all over our civilisation. I note, as there is a combination:

1: Possibility THAT-X 2: Evidence THAT-X based process has occurred on signs __________________ 3: So, as 2 exists, once 1 is accepted, IMMEDIATELY: 4: If 1 then (as 2 is established) it is credible that-X. __________________ 5: So, if one is committed to rejecting 4, then one will resist 1. And indeed, due to the perhaps unconscious recognition of 2, then one may well project that accepting 1 is tantamount to concluding 4 and so may perceive and project question-begging to those accepting 1 (who are actually simply being open to a significant possibility). When in fact a closer look at the logic will show who is actually begging the question by resisting 1 inappropriately.

Coming back to focal themes, cell based life is in key parts based on coded, algorithmic, stored digital information and associated molecular nanotech machinery. That has been increasingly established for coming on 70 years now. Such phenomena show language applied to automata, in cynernetic entities. Hence, biosemiosis etc. Language, is a characteristic function of intelligence of relevant order. It is a sign of intelligently directed configuration. In the history of study of life starting from the cell, that did not have to be the case, it was predicted [e.g. von Neumann's kinematic self-replicator] and it was empirically discovered, then the relevant codes were elucidated, leading to a revolution in understanding the cell. We now know of interwoven, multiple level coding and function. So, we have established a powerful fact-cluster tied to embedding of language in the living cell. This moves us beyond abstract possibilities we should be open to, to signs pointing to intelligently directed configuration as process of causation. From this, we are epistemically warranted to make a secondary inference, to the credible presence of a relevant designing, language-using, intelligence. One capable of designing digital code using cybernetic systems. So, no, this is not question-begging a priori imposition, indeed, it is the very opposite. And, it is astonishing that we have to spell this out like this again and again and again. But then, Plato's parable of the cave is a longstanding epistemological warning to our civilisation on the power of false enlightenment. Another cautioned: if the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness. KF kairosfocus

For hazel:

He [the Designer] indeed seems to have “carefully crafted” information in His species giving them the ability to respond to environmental stimuli to alter their own genome to adapt to new environments. He then evidently let them wander where they will with the ability to adapt.- Dr. Lee Spetner “the Evolution Revolution” p 108

Organisms were intelligently designed with the ability to adapt and evolve. ET

Yes, SA, that's a good point, and I understand it. That implies, maybe, that the only instance of design was the implementation of the original "software", and after that the "software" took over and the designer was no longer active. Does that seem like a possibility to you? And, of course, that still leaves the question of what was the "loci" of the original "software." And, the use of the broad term software leaves the question of what is the actual nature of what was originally designed: to what specifically does the term "software" refer? Do you have thoughts on these questions? hazel

Hazel

Don’t we have to accept that intelligences capable of so acting are definitely present at relevant loci? That is, if design happens, isn’t it a logical necessity that the intelligences capable of implementing the design must have been present at that point?

Your question is in regards to "loci" and "presence". Is it necessary that there is an intelligence "present at a loci"? Well, not really. We can infer that an intelligence created a software function but the creating intelligence is not present at the loci of the software function but rather has a higher-order design that created the architecture. So, we observe evidence of intelligence in the complex functions of cellular machinery, but the intelligence may have been actually present in a higher order function that created the cell. Silver Asiatic

Or is it perhaps that design is implemented continuously such that the implementation is never visibly different from the ongoing non-design even though the result of design is inferable. Or it it that this ongoing yet undetectable implementation happens just occasionally? Are there design theorists who have speculated on these things, and if so, offered any ways to investigate what might be true? hazel

Way back at the beginning of this thread, I asked

In an effort to clearly understand, I’d like to know if this is an accurate statement 1. Once one infers design, then it is reasonable to infer that an intelligent designer exists, or has existed, but 2. the inference of the existence of a designer is separate from the issue of identifying that designer.

At 5, points e and g, kf said, I think, that what I had written was accurate. At the time I had some further questions, but the discussion went off in other directions, but I’ll return a bit. At 5e, kf wrote, “However, to be willing to infer to design one has to be willing to accept that intelligences capable of so acting are possibly present at relevant loci.” The word “possibly” confuses me. Don’t we have to accept that intelligences capable of so acting are definitely present at relevant loci? That is, if design happens, isn’t it a logical necessity that the intelligences capable of implementing the design must have been present at that point? That is, kf, why the word “possibly”? Also, at 5g, kf wrote, “On adequate evidence of design as key causal process, then it is a secondary inference that an intelligence of adequate capability was present at the relevant point. This point mentions the “relevant point” and 5e the “relevant loci”. Can you give me some examples, or at least hypotheses, about what these relevant points are? That is, accepting the truth of design, are there specific points in time or space during which the design has been implemented? Is there any information about this? hazel

So I will continue to expose anyone who posts ID PRATTs and nonsense. And they will continue to cry foul because they definitely cannot defend their trope. ET

SNIP -- do not feed the distraction. ET

SNIP, off topic. Patience with side tracks exhausted. KF PS: Bullying is not equal to ill advised or distractive commentary, unless it crosses the line of personal attack, intimidation and willful harm to innocent reputation. Brother Brian

The anti-ID arguments are never original and they all have been dealt with many times over. It has become beyond pathetic. And dealing with people who would rather erect and fight strawmen as opposed to actually leading by example- show us how you determined blind and mindless processes did it, produce those testable hypotheses and the tests- gets annoying. hazel:

This has substance?

Yes, it does as it is all true. And if Brother Brian wouldn't post such easily refuted nonsense I would post what I do. So it's best to nip the uneducated anti-IDists who can only spew PRATTs and have nothing of substance to say. Both hazel and Ed have come to Brian's aid and neither one of them have a clue, otherwise they would have corrected Brian. You 3 trying to gang up on me proves who the bullies are. ET

ET writes,

The anti-ID arguments are never original and they all have been dealt with many times over. It has become beyond pathetic. And dealing with people who would rather erect and fight strawmen as opposed to actually leading by example- show us how you determined blind and mindless processes did it, produce those testable hypotheses and the tests- gets annoying.

This has substance? I'll point out that ET started the name calling back at 29 and 30, and also look at 44: best to nip that kind of thing in the bud in your future posts, I think: asking ET to "turn down the rhetorical voltage" hasn't proved to be a strong enough corrective. And, FWIW, I (just speaking for myself) have not made any "anti-ID" comments, nor am I an advocate of "Darwinism" (which I gather is a synonym for materialism here.) hazel

ET, notice the difference once I snipped para 1. KF kairosfocus

JAD, I came back by and did some snipping. A couple of weeks back, I took stronger measures but it looks like the lesson is fading. That was a warning. Let us proceed on substance I/L/O OP KF kairosfocus

So 85 isn't about "Inferring onward, from design to designer", really? It also addresses those who question such a thing in a belligerent manner. ET

Kf @ 73,

F/N: Should I ignore a distractive side channel? Should I shut down a discussion? Should I snip yet? Should I warn? I think, the last. I have already said enough on bullying, and it seems we need to understand that sociopaths will only heed superior force. That’s been said. KF

You have let this go on far too long Kf. The thread has already been successfully derailed. Please stop enabling and pandering to the trolls. It isn’t fair to us who try to play according to the rules. I haven’t commented much at UD for the past couple months because of this kind of crap. If UD can’t control a few bad actors maybe it’s time to shut down the site for good. PS #82-#85 are all off topic. john_a_designer

[As there is substance, I will not simply snip all. SNIP para 1, distractive. KF] The anti-ID arguments are never original and they all have been dealt with many times over. It has become beyond pathetic. And dealing with people who would rather erect and fight strawmen as opposed to actually leading by example- show us how you determined blind and mindless processes did it, produce those testable hypotheses and the tests- gets annoying. We do NOT have to know the capabilities of any designer before we can determine design exists. We determine the capabilities by the artifacts left behind. We determine whether or not something is an artifact using our knowledge of cause and effect relationships, in accordance with uniformitarianism:

"Thus, Behe concludes on the basis of our knowledge of present cause-and-effect relationships (in accord with the standard uniformitarian method employed in the historical sciences) that the molecular machines and complex systems we observe in cells can be best explained as the result of an intelligent cause. In brief, molecular motors appear designed because they were designed” Pg. 72 of "Darwinism, Design and Public Education"

We basically look for signs of work and/ or counterflow*. For example, Dr. Behe's criteria in "Darwin's Black Box":

“Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.”

* counterflow is defined by Del Ratzsch as something that nature, operating freely, could not or would not produce. ET

SNIP daveS

SNIP Silver Asiatic

I already snipped above, that should be a warning enough. SNIP== KF daveS

H, I have spoken of a general situation, as one who has dealt with such. For this thread, there is a little foolishness, and I have given warning. KF kairosfocus

I think it's easy to argue that Darwinism is an assault against the human race. It actually destroys the concept of human nature, among many other things. So, it's more than an insult against the human race. Silver Asiatic

SNIP ET

SNIP hazel

SNIP ET

SNIP hazel

Any statement made by a scientist isn’t necessarily scientific. It’s just a reflection of their personal worldview. Some famous scientists apparently were not materialists, though several individuals seemed agnostics or influenced by eastern philosophical literature like the Vedanta (Upanishad) that is shared -at least partially- by Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Some scientists expressed monotheistic beliefs, including Christianity in some cases. Erwin Schrödinger: “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is deficient. It gives a lot of factual information, puts all our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity.” “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Niels Bohr: Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. The meaning of life consists in the fact that it makes no sense to say that life has no meaning. Ernest Rutherford: When we have found how the nucleus of atoms is built up we shall have found the greatest secret of all — except life. We shall have found the basis of everything — of the earth we walk on, of the air we breathe, of the sunshine, of our physical body itself, of everything in the world, however great or however small — except life. The only possible conclusion the social sciences can draw is: some do, some don’t. Max Planck: I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter. Werner Heisenberg: Not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think. Where no guiding ideals are left to point the way, the scale of values disappears and with it the meaning of our deeds and sufferings, and at the end can lie only negation and despair. Religion is therefore the foundation of ethics, and ethics the presupposition of life. Albert Einstein: We are slowed down sound and light waves, a walking bundle of frequencies tuned into the cosmos. We are souls dressed up in sacred biochemical garments and our bodies are the instruments through which our souls play their music. Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light. Do you believe in miracles? Well, you should. In fact, life itself is a big miracle. There are so many things that are beyond our understanding. There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle. Nikola Tesla: (not a scientist but an engineer) The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible. Michael Faraday: The book of nature which we have to read is written by the finger of God. Since peace is alone the gift of God, and as it is He who gives it, why should we be afraid? His unspeakable gift in His beloved Son is the ground of no doubtful hope. I shall be with Christ, and that is enough. When I consider the multitude of associated forces which are diffused through nature – when I think of that calm balancing of their energies which enables those most powerful in themselves, most destructive to the world’s creatures and economy, to dwell associated together and be made subservient to the wants of creation, I rise from the contemplation more than ever impressed with the wisdom, the beneficence, and grandeur, beyond our language to express, of the Great Disposer of us all. James Clerk Maxwell: I have looked into most philosophical systems and I have seen that none will work without God. I think men of science as well as other men need to learn from Christ, and I think Christians whose minds are scientific are bound to study science that their view of the glory of God may be as extensive as their being is capable. But I think that the results which each man arrives at in his attempts to harmonize his science with his Christianity ought not to be regarded as having any significance except to the man himself, and to him only for a time, and should not receive the stamp of a society. Science is incompetent to reason upon the creation of matter itself out of nothing. We have reached the utmost limit of our thinking faculties when we have admitted that because matter cannot be eternal and self-existent it must have been created. I have the capacity of being more wicked than any example that man could set me. Isaac Newton: What we know is a drop, what we don’t know is an ocean. Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who sets the planets in motion. Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance. I know not how I seem to others, but to myself I am but a small child wandering upon the vast shores of knowledge, every now and then finding a small bright pebble to content myself with while the vast ocean of undiscovered truth lay before me. In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence. A Heavenly Master governs all the world as Sovereign of the universe. We are astonished at Him by reason of His perfection, we honor Him and fall down before Him because of His unlimited power. From blind physical necessity, which is always and everywhere the same, no variety adhering to time and place could evolve, and all variety of created objects which represent order and life in the universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, Whom I call the Lord God. The wonderful arrangement and harmony of the cosmos would only originate in the plan of an almighty omniscient being. This is and remains my greatest comprehension. As a blind man has no idea of colors, so we have no idea of the manner by which the all-wise God perceives and understands all things. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. It is the perfection of God’s works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion. And therefore as they would understand the frame of the world must endeavor to reduce their knowledge to all possible simplicity, so must it be in seeking to understand these visions. There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history. I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily. The folly of Interpreters has been, to foretell times and things by this Prophecy, as if God designed to make them Prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the Prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the Prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify mens curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own Providence, not the Interpreters, be then manifested thereby to the world. No being exists or can exist which is not related to space in some way. God is everywhere, created minds are somewhere, and body is in the space that it occupies; and whatever is neither everywhere nor anywhere does not exist. And hence it follows that space is an effect arising from the first existence of being, because when any being is postulated, space is postulated. We account the Scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. The other part of the true religion is our duty to man. We must love our neighbour as our selves, we must be charitable to all men for charity is the greatest of graces, greater then even faith or hope & covers a multitude of sins. We must be righteous & do to all men as we would they should do to us. He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors. Yet one thing secures us what ever betide, the scriptures assures us that the Lord will provide. Trials are medicines which our gracious and wise Physician prescribes because we need them; and he proportions the frequency and weight of them to what the case requires. Let us trust his skill and thank him for his prescription. Johannes Kepler: Science is the process of thinking God’s thoughts after Him. The chief aim of all investigations of the external world should be to discover the rational order and harmony which has been imposed on it by God and which He revealed to us in the language of mathematics. The wisdom of the Lord is infinite as are also His glory and His power. Ye heavens, sing His praises; sun, moon, and planets, glorify Him in your ineffable language! Praise Him, celestial harmonies, and all ye who can comprehend them! And thou, my soul, praise thy Creator! It is by Him and in Him that all exist. I had the intention of becoming a theologian…but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for ‘the heavens declare the glory of God.’ Why are things as they are and not otherwise? Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God. My greatest desire is that I may perceive the God whom I find everywhere in the external world, in like manner also within and inside myself. It is a right, yes a duty, to search in cautious manner for the numbers, sizes, and weights, the norms for everything [God] has created. For He himself has let man take part in the knowledge of these things … For these secrets are not of the kind whose research should be forbidden; rather they are set before our eyes like a mirror so that by examining them we observe to some extent the goodness and wisdom of the Creator. The heavenly bodies are nothing but a continuous song for several voices (perceived by the intellect, not by the ear); a music which… sets landmarks in the immeasurable flow of time. It is therefore, no longer surprising that man, in imitation of his creator, has at last discovered the art of figured song, which was unknown to the ancients. Man wanted to reproduce the continuity of cosmic time… to obtain a sample test of the delight of the Divine Creator in His works, and to partake of his joy by making music in the imitation of God. Do we ask what profit the little bird hopes for in singing? Great is God our Lord, great is His power and there is no end to His wisdom. Praise Him you heavens, glorify Him, sun and moon and you planets. For out of Him and through Him, and in Him are all things….. We know, oh, so little. To Him be the praise, the honor and the glory from eternity to eternity. Nicolaus Copernicus: To know that we know what we know, and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge. To know the mighty works of God, to comprehend His wisdom and majesty and power; to appreciate, in degree, the wonderful workings of His laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more grateful than knowledge. The Universe, wrought for us by a supremely good and orderly Creator. PaoloV

OLV, just the evidence of coded, algorithmic language in the cell is utterly decisive. The obvious resort to denial and dismissal then tells us we are not dealing with a reasoned response. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Should I ignore a distractive side channel? Should I shut down a discussion? Should I snip yet? Should I warn? I think, the last. I have already said enough on bullying, and it seems we need to understand that sociopaths will only heed superior force. That's been said. KF kairosfocus

KF @63: Yes, agree. BTW, regarding the post @60, the research papers lately seem to keep adding control layers upon control layers. This may continue for quite some time in the future. Actually, the frequency of those additions might increase. Is there a threshold beyond which the objectors might start to see the point? I don’t think so, because the evidence is already overwhelmingly convincing and they don’t seem to see it. As you said, it’s sad. OLV

Oh, I see. Never heard that one. hazel

Point. Refuted. A. Thousand. Times. ET

What is a PRATT? hazel

I expect hazel, ed and brother brian to ignore me. What I post isn't for the willfully ignorant, anyway. :razz: ET

Brother Brian:

Ignore them and you make them look like the pathetic, insecure little people they really are.

Or you show that you don't have anything to respond with so you had better be quiet or suffer more humiliation

If you doubt me, ask yourself why a certain individual feels it necessary to respond to almost every comment I make even though I never respond to him.

LoL! I respond to your asinine posts that you try to pass off as some authoritative facts. If you didn't post so much easily refuted nonsense then I wouldn't have anything to say. Your posts expose you as a joke. That is why I respond. Stop posting nonsense and I wouldn't have anything to say. ET

Brother Brian:

For example, if the moderator of an OP at UD repeatedly allowed one commenter to call another clueless and brainless, that moderator is enabling that bullying behavior.

Allowing your obvious PRATTs to exist can be seen as enabling bullying behavior. Everything you post in your flailing attempt to undermine ID has been dealt with over and over again. You haven't come up with one original argument. You haven't come up with one coherent argument. You just flail away at ID all the while all you have to do is step up and demonstrate the capabilities of your position's posited mechanisms. You have all of the power to refute ID and yet you choose to post PRATTs and refuse to learn when you are easily corrected. So clearly YOU are trying to be the bully and you are just upset because I easily expose you as a poseur. If I was the bully then the best tactic is to step up and refute what I posted. You know, the posts that make you look like a willfully ignorant troll. That is how you do it- humiliate the bully with facts and science (if you can't punch him/her in the nose). That is what I do. :razz: ET

BB suggested ignoring ET, so I assume that prompted your warning him (BB) that in ignoring ET he might be enabling "bullying and linked sociopathic patterns — there are people who lack empathy and conscience to restrain themselves from dangerous and even life-threatening abuse." Is this the corrective you were offering? And is there a possibility that your "corrective" was a little over the top, and vague, and thus not likely to be effective? hazel

KF

H, someone above suggested the very dangerous tactic of trying to ignore bullying — which may actually enable it. I gave a direct corrective because of the importance of dealing with bullying independent of anything else. KF

KF, you completely misinterpreted my comment. I agree that anyone who witnesses bullying and ignores it is enabling it and is entirely unacceptable. For example, if the moderator of an OP at UD repeatedly allowed one commenter to call another clueless and brainless, that moderator is enabling that bullying behavior. What I was referring to was the best way for a person who is being bullied to react to it. And I can speak to this from direct personal experience. As a kid, I was tall, skinny, uncoordinated, wore glasses and was shy. My first reaction to being bullied was to react to it. Which is exactly what the bully wants. In some twisted way, the reaction justifies the bullies behavior. But the quickest way to show a bully for what they truly are (pathetic, insecure little people) is to not let them make you react. Easier said than done, but very effective. It works regardless of whether the bully is pushing you on the school yard or calling you names on an insignificant little blog. Ignore them and you make them look like the pathetic, insecure little people they really are. If you doubt me, ask yourself why a certain individual feels it necessary to respond to almost every comment I make even though I never respond to him. Brother Brian

OLV, the media, education and celebrity voices give a very different message from the direct import of language being in the heart of cell based life. It is amazingly hard for people to see the obvious but politically very incorrect. Thus, the fable about the Emperor's new clothes. KF kairosfocus

H, someone above suggested the very dangerous tactic of trying to ignore bullying -- which may actually enable it. I gave a direct corrective because of the importance of dealing with bullying independent of anything else. KF kairosfocus

Back at 53, kf wrote,

I do note — as a caution — that someone here does not understand bullying and linked sociopathic patterns — there are people who lack empathy and conscience to restrain themselves from dangerous and even life-threatening abuse. You cannot ignore violence, reckless behaviour, abuse of authority and serious threats, especially when a pattern shows up.

Is this sentence actually about someone discussing things here at UD? If so, who? Those are extremely strong words to apply to the participants on some little internet forum where the people don't know each other, have no physical contact with each other, and at worst argue with each other somewhat uncivilly at times. What and/or who did you have in mind when you wrote that??? hazel

Another layer of regulation? tRNAs are the central adaptor molecules in translation. Their decoding properties are influenced by post-transcriptional modifications, particularly in the critical anticodon-stem-loop (ASL) region. Synonymous codon choice, also called codon usage bias, affects both translation efficiency and accuracy, and ASL modifications play key roles in both of these processes. [...] as more cases emerge, it does seem that tRNA modification changes could add another layer of regulation in the transfer of information from DNA to protein. Can Protein Expression Be Regulated by Modulation of tRNA Modification Profiles? Leticia Pollo-Oliveira, Valérie de Crécy-Lagard Biochemistry 2019585355-362 https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.biochem.8b01035 OLV

@58 clarification of text It must be really depressing for them to see their strongest arguments being on the losing side of the debate. Seeing the avalanche of research papers describing amazing discoveries that debunk their ideas and confirm the ID paradigm should be quite discouraging to those atheist/materialists. But perhaps they are obliviously unaware of that? OLV

KF @54: "it seems many have been indoctrinated to ignore or suppress manifest signs that we are seeing coded language and algorithms at work with associated molecular nanotech execution machinery. The resistance to strong evidence of intelligently directed configuration is an index of ideological polarisation." "it is telling that after ever so much objections as to how, suspiciously, design thinkers do not address the designer, when an OP is put up that does, by and large the objectors side step the focal issue and its substantial warrant. That tells us that the objection was not genuine, it was just a handy rhetorical talking point." Agree. It must be really depressing to see your arguments being on the losing side of the debate. Seeing the avalanche of research papers describing amazing discoveries that confirm the ID paradigm should be quite discouraging to those atheist/materialists. But perhaps they are obliviously unaware of that? OLV

Deleted comments are an attempt by the thread-owner to focus the discussion as closely as possible to the topic at hand. It is a means of treating these discussions as if they are published-commentaries, and therefore subject to an editor. I favor that, myself. I know it is unpopular and difficult to see the words you've written end up deleted from the page, but it's a disciplinary process. I would possibly go farther and delete or edit responses that repeat objections that have already been answered in the same thread, or which display ignorance of responses that have already been given. All of this runs the risk of killing off good discussions, but I think the risk is minimal. A quantity of talk does not substitute for a quality discussion. If everyone wants to learn through challenge, debate, research and thoughtful exchange, then deleting off-topic, unnecessary, distracting, evasive, personal or otherwise pointless comments would be a benefit. It's like pruning a plant. Cutting off the dead or weak leaves promotes healthier growth. If you lost a post due to editing, then just try again with something that is more directly on-topic. It might also be helpful if the thread-owner, with some courtesy, appended a comment to each deletion giving a brief reason. in afterthought, all of that said - a vast majority of comments here where various clippings from articles are posted, many very fascinating, are strictly speaking off topic in the way I presented it, so there would be quite a lot of deletions even from the pro-ID side. So, it's a matter of discretion. It's a lot easier just to keep an open-comment policy except for abuse, etc. Silver Asiatic

OLV

Jawa, Your off-topic comment doesn’t belong in this discussion. You should have posted it in the appropriate thread.

I would normally agree. But when your comment is changed to “Comment deleted -WJM” it is difficult for people to judge the validity of the comment for themselves. In my opinion, what WJM is doing is just cowardly bullying. I give credit to KF. He very rarely uses the censor button, and it is almost always associated with the use of inappropriate language or personal attacks. And, when he does this, he usually provides an explanation. Brother Brian

In my opinion I think in these discussion we need to consider the interlocutor’s world view or basic philosophical assumptions up front. Philosophical not scientific assumptions are his true starting point. Any claims on his part to the contrary is not only intellectually but ethically dishonest. The philosophical naturalist (or materialists-- all materialists are naturalists) has deluded himself into thinking he has a trump card which bolsters his hand… science. The problem is that there are no trump cards in the high stakes world view ontological game. This is because in order to even begin to play the game you must establish the ground of being. You must begin by asking some basic questions. For example, you must ask, why does anything at all exist? Or, what is the nature of existence? How do we know? How can we be sure of what we know? Can we really know the truth about anything? However these are metaphysical questions, not questions that can be answered by science itself. Einstein said that scientists are poor philosophers. That perhaps explains why there are some scientists who believe that science can actually serve as a basis for a world view that can answer some of our biggest questions—at least those that they think are worthwhile. The late American astronomer Carl Sagan, for example, proclaimed that “the Cosmos is all that there is or ever was or ever will be.” (That is a claim that is not scientifically provable.) And, Nobel Prize winner Steven Weinberg opines that while “the worldview of science is rather chilling” there is, nevertheless, he goes on to say, “a grim satisfaction, in facing up to our condition without despair and without wishful thinking--with good humor… without God.” And then there is Harvard professor of psychology Steven Pinker who takes a scientifically based world view just about to its absolute limit. Pinker writes that,

the findings of science entail that the belief systems of all the world’s traditional religions and cultures—their theories of the origins of life, humans, and societies—are factually mistaken. We know, but our ancestors did not, that humans belong to a single species of African primate that developed agriculture, government, and writing late in its history. We know that our species is a tiny twig of a genealogical tree that embraces all living things and that emerged from prebiotic chemicals almost four billion years ago. We know that we live on a planet that revolves around one of a hundred billion stars in our galaxy, which is one of a hundred billion galaxies in a 13.8-billion-year-old universe, possibly one of a vast number of universes. We know that our intuitions about space, time, matter, and causation are incommensurable with the nature of reality on scales that are very large and very small. We know that the laws governing the physical world (including accidents, disease, and other misfortunes) have no goals that pertain to human well-being. There is no such thing as fate, providence, karma, spells, curses, augury, divine retribution, or answered prayers—though the discrepancy between the laws of probability and the workings of cognition may explain why people believe there are. And we know that we did not always know these things, that the beloved convictions of every time and culture may be decisively falsified, doubtless including some we hold today. In other words, the worldview that guides the moral and spiritual values of an educated person today is the worldview given to us by science.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities On the other hand, there are other scientists, including some who are non-religious, even agnostic or atheistic, who see the folly of this kind of thinking. For example, Sir Peter Medawar, also a Nobel laureate, was one scientist who spoke out against this so called scientism. He wrote in his book, Advice to a Young Scientist:

“There is no quicker way for a scientist to bring discredit upon himself and upon his profession than roundly to declare – particularly when no declaration of any kind is called for – that science knows, or soon will know, the answers to all questions worth asking, and that questions which do not admit a scientific answer are in some way non-questions or ‘pseudo-questions’ that only simpletons ask and only the gullible profess to be able to answer. … The existence of a limit to science is, however, made clear by its inability to answer childlike elementary questions having to do with first and last things – questions such as ‘How did everything begin?'; ‘What are we all here for?';’What is the point of living?'” Advice to a Young Scientist, London, Harper and Row, 1979 p.31

Also, Erwin Schrödinger, one of the early theorist of quantum physics, said something similar: “Science puts everything in a consistent order but is ghastly silent about everything that really matters to us: beauty, color, taste, pain or delight, origins, God and eternity.” john_a_designer

OLV, it seems many have been indoctrinated to ignore or suppress manifest signs that we are seeing coded language and algorithms at work with associated molecular nanotech execution machinery. The resistance to strong evidence of intelligently directed configuration is an index of ideological polarisation. The thread above indicates to me that inveterate objectors most likely are not reading or processing the substantial arguments, they are only snipping and sniping to distract, trigger a hostile atmosphere and to dismiss. In this case, it is telling that after ever so much objections as to how, suspiciously, design thinkers do not address the designer, when an OP is put up that does, by and large the objectors side step the focal issue and its substantial warrant. That tells us that the objection was not genuine, it was just a handy rhetorical talking point. Sad. KF kairosfocus

EG, BB ET: We do not need a side stream of personalities. I do note -- as a caution -- that someone here does not understand bullying and linked sociopathic patterns -- there are people who lack empathy and conscience to restrain themselves from dangerous and even life-threatening abuse. You cannot ignore violence, reckless behaviour, abuse of authority and serious threats, especially when a pattern shows up. That holds in the schoolyard, on the job, or in a family. Trying to pretend that nothing is happening or minimising what is happening to a victim is a recipe for disaster, we call it enabling. Simple teasing, perhaps can be ignored for the moment until relevant authority has evidence to step in correctively. But even that can be a warning of dangerous abuse, from words, deeds spring and words themselves can do grave harm. That's why there are torts recognised in law about verbal abuse and attacks against innocent reputation. This problem is also precisely why so many inveterate objectors to design thought so often play out the trifecta fallacy of red herrings led out to strawmen caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight with incendiary rhetoric -- snide or blatant -- in order to poison, cloud, confuse and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. When we see objectors persistently using distractions and denigration, that is a sign they do not have a cogent, substantial answer. Above, I have stepped in correctively. KF kairosfocus

Decoding Mechanisms by which Silent Codon Changes Influence Protein Biogenesis and Function Vedrana Bali and Zsuzsanna Bebok https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biocel.2015.03.011 The more we know, more we have to learn. OLV

Redundancy of the genetic code enables translational pausing David J. D'Onofrio and David L. Abel The codon redundancy (“degeneracy”) found in protein-coding regions of mRNA also prescribes Translational Pausing (TP). When coupled with the appropriate interpreters, multiple meanings and functions are programmed into the same sequence of configurable switch-settings. This additional layer of Ontological Prescriptive Information (PIo) purposely slows or speeds up the translation-decoding process within the ribosome. Variable translation rates help prescribe functional folding of the nascent protein. Redundancy of the codon to amino acid mapping, therefore, is anything but superfluous or degenerate. Redundancy programming allows for simultaneous dual prescriptions of TP and amino acid assignments without cross-talk. This allows both functions to be coincident and realizable. We will demonstrate that the TP schema is a bona fide rule-based code, conforming to logical code-like properties. Second, we will demonstrate that this TP code is programmed into the supposedly degenerate redundancy of the codon table. We will show that algorithmic processes play a dominant role in the realization of this multi-dimensional code. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2014.00140/full OLV

Dichotomy in the definition of prescriptive information suggests both prescribed data and prescribed algorithms: biosemiotics applications in genomic systems David J D'Onofrio, David L Abel, and Donald E Johnson https://tbiomed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1742-4682-9-8 The fields of molecular biology and computer science have cooperated over recent years to create a synergy between the cybernetic and biosemiotic relationship found in cellular genomics to that of information and language found in computational systems. Biological information frequently manifests its "meaning" through instruction or actual production of formal bio-function. Such information is called prescriptive information (PI). PI programs organize and execute a prescribed set of choices. Closer examination of this term in cellular systems has led to a dichotomy in its definition suggesting both prescribed data and prescribed algorithms are constituents of PI. This paper looks at this dichotomy as expressed in both the genetic code and in the central dogma of protein synthesis. An example of a genetic algorithm is modeled after the ribosome, and an examination of the protein synthesis process is used to differentiate PI data from PI algorithms. OLV

Jawa, Your off-topic comment doesn’t belong in this discussion. You should have posted it in the appropriate thread. OLV

OT: Something strange going on in another discussion thread: Brother Brian Deleted – WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of... ET Deleted - WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of... hazel Deleted - WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of... PaoloV Deleted - WJM — Mind vs Matter: the Result of... bornagain77 Deleted - WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of... jawa

KF @23: „MORE THAN METAPHOR: GENOMES ARE OBJECTIVE SIGN SYSTEMS” Interesting paper you cited. Thanks. OLV

Wow, two sock puppets from the same master supporting each other. How quaint. Brother Ed doesn't seem to be able to stay away. It thinks it can behave the same way that he tries to discourage and no one will notice. How pathetic are you, Ed? And BTW, I respond to your nonsense, and BB's, so that others can read how ignorant you are. I know you will never change ET

BB

I learned as a kid that the best way to deal with a bully is to simply ignore them. They will continue to taunt and rant at you but by ignoring them the only one who looks like a pathetic fool is the bully.

Undoubtedly you are correct. But I have a harder time doing so. My solution, possibly a cowardly one, has been to stay away from sites that allow/encourage this type of behavior, popping in every now and then to see if things have changed. Ed George

LoL! Evos are the bully wannabe's. They are the people spewing lies and nonsense. I am just sticking it right back to them and their cowardly ignorance. Of course I will be ignored by them. They live in willful ignorance and learning is the antithesis of their lives. So yes, ignore me and continue to look like pathetic fools. I know that it doesn't bother you. Only a coward would call someone a bully who merely corrects their ignorance. ET

EG

I have not come to this site for a while and the first thing I see when I pop in is this. I guess it is time to leave again.

Thanks for the support, Ed. But I wouldn’t sweat it. I, like most, simply scroll past ET’s comments. I learned as a kid that the best way to deal with a bully is to simply ignore them. They will continue to taunt and rant at you but by ignoring them the only one who looks like a pathetic fool is the bully. Brother Brian

PPPS: Web archive, on so-called methodological naturalism:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120111130041/http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Methodological_Naturalism ISCID Encyclopedia of Science and Philosophy - BETA Methodological Naturalism A methodological principle that some scientists think ought to guide science. Methodological naturalism requires that scientists limit themselves to nauralistic or materialistic explanations when they seek to explain natural phenomena, objects, or processes. On this understanding of how science ought to work, explanations that invoke intelligent causes or the actions of intelligent agents do not qualify as scientific.

--> I suppose practitioners of forensic or cryptological and archeological science etc would be surprised to find that intelligent cause is "unscientific" (at least, when that is inconvenient to those who impose or enable evolutionary materialistic scientism). --> Similarly, the demand for direct observation of designers in contexts where the point is that we cannot directly inspect the past or remote reaches of the cosmos, should be seen for what it too often is or becomes: a way to rhetorically lock out inconvenient indirect (circumstantial) evidence. kairosfocus

PPS: As inveterate objectors tend to use the TL/DR excuse to evade cogent argument, let me highlight the lucky noise challenge:

“LUCKY NOISE” SCENARIO: Imagine a world in which somehow all the “real” messages sent “actually” vanish into cyberspace and “lucky noise” rooted in the random behaviour of molecules etc, somehow substitutes just the messages that were intended — of course, including whenever engineers or technicians use test equipment to debug telecommunication and computer systems! Can you find a law of logic or physics that: [a] strictly forbids such a state of affairs from possibly existing; and, [b] allows you to strictly distinguish that from the “observed world” in which we think we live? That is, we are back to a Russell “five- minute- old- universe”-type paradox. Namely, we cannot empirically distinguish the world we think we live in from one that was instantly created five minutes ago with all the artifacts, food in our tummies, memories etc. that we experience. We solve such paradoxes by worldview level inference to best explanation, i.e. by insisting that unless there is overwhelming, direct evidence that leads us to that conclusion, we do not live in Plato’s Cave of deceptive shadows that we only imagine is reality, or that we are “really” just brains in vats stimulated by some mad scientist, or we live in a The Matrix world, or the like . . . . A CASE STUDY ON CAUSAL FORCES/FACTORS — A Tumbling Die: Heavy objects tend to fall under the law-like natural regularity we call gravity. If the object is a die, the face that ends up on the top from the set {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6} is for practical purposes a matter of chance. But, if the die is cast as part of a game, the results are as much a product of agency as of natural regularity and chance. Indeed, the agents in question are taking advantage of natural regularities and chance to achieve their purposes!

kairosfocus

PS: My longstanding note elaborates on lucky noise:

let us now consider in a little more detail a situation where an apparent message is received. What does that mean? What does it imply about the origin of the message . . . or, is it just noise that "got lucky"? If an apparent message is received, it means that something is working as an intelligible -- i.e. functional -- signal for the receiver. In effect, there is a standard way to make and send and recognise and use messages in some observable entity [e.g. a radio, a computer network, etc.], and there is now also some observed event, some variation in a physical parameter, that corresponds to it. [For instance, on this web page as displayed on your monitor, we have a pattern of dots of light and dark and colours on a computer screen, which correspond, more or less, to those of text in English.] Information theory, as Fig A.1 illustrates, then observes that if we have a receiver, we credibly have first had a transmitter, and a channel through which the apparent message has come; a meaningful message that corresponds to certain codes or standard patterns of communication and/or intelligent action. [Here, for instance, through HTTP and TCP/IP, the original text for this web page has been passed from the server on which it is stored, across the Internet, to your machine, as a pattern of binary digits in packets. Your computer then received the bits through its modem, decoded the digits, and proceeded to display the resulting text on your screen as a complex, functional coded pattern of dots of light and colour. At each stage, integrated, goal-directed intelligent action is deeply involved, deriving from intelligent agents -- engineers and computer programmers. We here consider of course digital signals, but in principle anything can be reduced to such signals, so this does not affect the generality of our thoughts.] Now, it is of course entirely possible, that the apparent message is "nothing but" a lucky burst of noise that somehow got through the Internet and reached your machine. That is, it is logically and physically possible [i.e. neither logic nor physics forbids it!] that every apparent message you have ever got across the Internet -- including not just web pages but also even emails you have received -- is nothing but chance and luck: there is no intelligent source that actually sent such a message as you have received; all is just lucky noise: "LUCKY NOISE" SCENARIO: Imagine a world in which somehow all the "real" messages sent "actually" vanish into cyberspace and "lucky noise" rooted in the random behaviour of molecules etc, somehow substitutes just the messages that were intended -- of course, including whenever engineers or technicians use test equipment to debug telecommunication and computer systems! Can you find a law of logic or physics that: [a] strictly forbids such a state of affairs from possibly existing; and, [b] allows you to strictly distinguish that from the "observed world" in which we think we live? That is, we are back to a Russell "five- minute- old- universe"-type paradox. Namely, we cannot empirically distinguish the world we think we live in from one that was instantly created five minutes ago with all the artifacts, food in our tummies, memories etc. that we experience. We solve such paradoxes by worldview level inference to best explanation, i.e. by insisting that unless there is overwhelming, direct evidence that leads us to that conclusion, we do not live in Plato's Cave of deceptive shadows that we only imagine is reality, or that we are "really" just brains in vats stimulated by some mad scientist, or we live in a The Matrix world, or the like. (In turn, we can therefore see just how deeply embedded key faith-commitments are in our very rationality, thus all worldviews and reason-based enterprises, including science. Or, rephrasing for clarity: "faith" and "reason" are not opposites; rather, they are inextricably intertwined in the faith-points that lie at the core of all worldviews. Thus, resorting to selective hyperskepticism and objectionism to dismiss another's faith-point [as noted above!], is at best self-referentially inconsistent; sometimes, even hypocritical and/or -- worse yet -- willfully deceitful. Instead, we should carefully work through the comparative difficulties across live options at worldview level, especially in discussing matters of fact. And it is in that context of humble self consistency and critically aware, charitable open-mindedness that we can now reasonably proceed with this discussion.) In short, none of us actually lives or can consistently live as though s/he seriously believes that: absent absolute proof to the contrary, we must believe that all is noise. [To see the force of this, consider an example posed by Richard Taylor. You are sitting in a railway carriage and seeing stones you believe to have been randomly arranged, spelling out: "WELCOME TO WALES." Would you believe the apparent message? Why or why not?] Q: Why then do we believe in intelligent sources behind the web pages and email messages that we receive, etc., since we cannot ultimately absolutely prove that such is the case? ANS: Because we believe the odds of such "lucky noise" happening by chance are so small, that we intuitively simply ignore it. That is, we all recognise that if an apparent message is contingent [it did not have to be as it is, or even to be at all], is functional within the context of communication, and is sufficiently complex that it is highly unlikely to have happened by chance, then it is much better to accept the explanation that it is what it appears to be -- a message originating in an intelligent [though perhaps not wise!] source -- than to revert to "chance" as the default assumption. Technically, we compare how close the received signal is to legitimate messages, and then decide that it is likely to be the "closest" such message. (All of this can be quantified, but this intuitive level discussion is enough for our purposes.) In short, we all intuitively and even routinely accept that: Functionally Specified, Complex Information, FSCI, is a signature of messages originating in intelligent sources. Thus, if we then try to dismiss the study of such inferences to design as "unscientific," when they may cut across our worldview preferences, we are plainly being grossly inconsistent. Further to this, the common attempt to pre-empt the issue through the attempted secularist redefinition of science as in effect "what can be explained on the premise of evolutionary materialism - i.e. primordial matter-energy joined to cosmological- + chemical- + biological macro- + sociocultural- evolution, AKA 'methodological naturalism' " [ISCID def'n: here] is itself yet another begging of the linked worldview level questions. For in fact, the issue in the communication situation once an apparent message is in hand is: inference to (a) intelligent -- as opposed to supernatural -- agency [signal] vs. (b) chance-process [noise]. Moreover, at least since Cicero, we have recognised that the presence of functionally specified complexity in such an apparent message helps us make that decision. (Cf. also Meyer's closely related discussion of the demarcation problem here.) More broadly the decision faced once we see an apparent message, is first to decide its source across a trichotomy: (1) chance; (2) natural regularity rooted in mechanical necessity (or as Monod put it in his famous 1970 book, echoing Plato, simply: "necessity"); (3) intelligent agency. These are the three commonly observed causal forces/factors in our world of experience and observation. [Cf. abstract of a recent technical, peer-reviewed, scientific discussion here. Also, cf. Plato's remark in his The Laws, Bk X, excerpted below.] Each of these forces stands at the same basic level as an explanation or cause, and so the proper question is to rule in/out relevant factors at work, not to decide before the fact that one or the other is not admissible as a "real" explanation. This often confusing issue is best initially approached/understood through a concrete example . . . A CASE STUDY ON CAUSAL FORCES/FACTORS -- A Tumbling Die: Heavy objects tend to fall under the law-like natural regularity we call gravity. If the object is a die, the face that ends up on the top from the set {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6} is for practical purposes a matter of chance. But, if the die is cast as part of a game, the results are as much a product of agency as of natural regularity and chance. Indeed, the agents in question are taking advantage of natural regularities and chance to achieve their purposes! This concrete, familiar illustration should suffice to show that the three causal factors approach is not at all arbitrary or dubious -- as some are tempted to imagine or assert. [More details . . .] Then also, in certain highly important communication situations, the next issue after detecting agency as best causal explanation, is whether the detected signal comes from (4) a trusted source, or (5) a malicious interloper, or is a matter of (6) unintentional cross-talk. (Consequently, intelligence agencies have a significant and very practical interest in the underlying scientific questions of inference to agency then identification of the agent -- a potential (and arguably, probably actual) major application of the theory of the inference to design.) Next, to identify which of the three is most important/ the best explanation in a given case, it is useful to extend the principles of statistical hypothesis testing through Fisherian elimination to create the Explanatory Filter

--> Fair comment: too often, inveterate objectors refuse to engage cogently, instead seeking to dismiss on loaded, toxic caricatures of design thought and design thinkers. kairosfocus

F/N2: But, isn't it about implicitly assuming the designer? (And, concealing the "fact" that ID is really Creationism in disguise?) No. One of the persistent, hyperskeptical (and too often cynical or even slanderous) fallacies of inveterate objectors to design inferences is that the reasoning begs the question and/or has a hidden agenda of Biblical Creationism. This persists despite many cogent corrections over many years, too often because tainting the other side works rhetorically despite not being truthful. This last is a serious character flaw, let that suffice. On the first issue, let us note that design (as the OP notes) is about intelligently directed configuration. This obviously comes from intelligences, which as the OP summarises from recent discussion here at UD, is radically different in characteristics from what computational substrates do. The latter are simply neither rational nor responsible (morally governed), they are glorified, garbage in garbage out mechanical and/or stochastic calculating entities. That's why the issue of the possibility of relevant designers is a question of being open to real possibilities rather than indulging improper ideological lockouts. In short, one of the goals of science is credible knowledge, where in the relevant weak sense we commonly use knowledge is warranted, credibly true belief -- as opposed to utterly certainly true belief. Genuine science cannot afford to be hampered by ideological lockouts that turn it into little more than applied atheism. We know that causal factors exist, and that causes can be identified. In this context, at least since Plato it has been on record that we may cluster these as blindly mechanical and/or stochastic (aka chance), or intelligent direction. Each of these has characteristic, observable signs. And so, in a context where a designer was not directly seen in action, we may legitimately first infer on signs that something is not credibly lawlike, low contingency mechanical necessity. Second, we look at the two known sources of potentially widely divergent outcomes on closely similar initial conditions. In principle we may try to impose chance as it may access any outcome in a relevant configuration space. But that's not the only relevant factor, as it may be maximally implausible to find certain specialised outcomes as coming from chance. Whether, at one go or cumulatively. The latter is about hill climbing on islands of configuration-based function. As the OP illustrates, in many relevant config spaces, sol system or observed cosmos scope resources lead to needle in haystack challenges. Such challenges to get to shorelines of function do not credibly support the jump from chance is abstractly possible, to it is plausible. For example lucky noise does not credibly, plausibly, cogently explain coherent text bearing messages beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. This is directly relevant to cell based life given the discovery of DNA since 1953. Instead, we know that creative, rationally free intelligence can and does produce such, routinely. There are trillions of cases in point, and there are no counter-examples that do not involve design, once we go beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. Therefore, such text (and wider functionally specific complex organisation and associated information) will be a reliable, empirically observable sign of design. And of course, we here deal with language and often language applied to algorithms (which show purpose). Those are strong signs of design. So, instead of being question-begging, we are looking at alternative causal explanations of observable phenomena, given known, characteristic features. Ironically, it is those who indulge in or enable materialist imposition of ideological lockout who are begging the question. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Let's refocus a key issue, that inference to causal process of design/arson is not yet warrant to infer onward to designer/arsonist,

About seven years ago, one night, fires broke out in two of Montserrat’s court houses, and did considerable damage (including to records). After they were put out, investigators found signs of accelerants. For cause, they inferred arson. However, they were unable to infer onward to credibly suspected arsonists. Why? Want of a cluster of facts and logic, never mind that popular suspicion did attach to persons believed to benefit from loss of records. As any lawyer can tell, motive, means, opportunity backed up by evidence are the foundation stones on which a court reaches sound judgement. (Kangaroo courts do exist, but leaping to a predetermined conclusion without fair process is not sound process.) In short, the design inference is much like the progress of investigation of an event: are mechanical necessity and/or chance adequate to explain, or is intentionally, intelligently directed configuration a more credible explanation, given signs s1, s2 . . . sn?

So, as long as arsonists/designers are possible, reliable signs should be allowed to speak with their own voices. KF kairosfocus

In his book Darwin’s Black Box, Michael Behe asks,

“Might there be an as yet undiscovered natural process that would explain biochemical complexity? No one would be foolish enough to categorically deny the possibility. Nonetheless we can say that if there is such a process, no one has a clue how it would work. Further it would go against all human experience, like postulating that a natural process might explain computers… In the face of the massive evidence we do have for biochemical design, ignoring the evidence in the name of a phantom process would be to play the role of detective who ignore the elephant.” (p. 203-204)

Basically Behe is asking, if biochemical complexity (irreducible complexity) evolved by some natural process x, how did it evolve? That is a perfectly legitimate scientific question. Notice that even though in DBB Behe was criticizing Neo-Darwinism he is not ruling out a priori some other mindless natural evolutionary process, “x” Behe is simply claiming that at the present there is no known natural process that can explain how irreducibly complex mechanisms and processes originated. If he and other ID’ist are wrong then our critics need to provide the step-by-step-by-step empirical explanation of how they originated, not just speculation and wishful thinking. Unfortunately our regular interlocutors seem to only be able to provide the latter not the former. Behe made another point which is worth keeping in mind.

“In the abstract, it might be tempting to imagine that irreducible complexity simply requires multiple simultaneous mutations - that evolution might be far chancier than we thought, but still possible. Such an appeal to brute luck can never be refuted... Luck is metaphysical speculation; scientific explanations invoke causes.”

In other words, a strongly held metaphysical belief is not a scientific explanation. john_a_designer

JAD

ID, on the other hand, is a philosophical inference from nature itself.

Yes, in the same way that all physical science is a philosophical inference from what is observed in nature. Silver Asiatic

Rhetorical voltage down please. kairosfocus

EMH, great points on Socrates. KF kairosfocus

Brother Ed:

I guess it is time to leave again.

Thank you. Will you be taking your socks with you? ET

ET

Clueless:

I have not come to this site for a while and the first thing I see when I pop in is this. I guess it is time to leave again. Ed George

[To follow-up on my post @ #27.] From an ID perspective we need to go back and try to understand what Darwin was trying to do. Like Dawkins, he was trying to explain the appearance of design and purpose in the natural world without invoking design or a designer. To do so he had to start with the fact of apparent design and then try to explain how organs and organism’s evolved unguided without any kind of plan or purpose. So far nobody has been able how this occurred except when it comes to minor trivial evolutionary changes. At present no one has been able to explain so called macro-evolutionary change which according to the fossil record appear to occur in bursts and spurts with no evidentiary clues as to how such changes occurred. What that leaves the modern Darwinist with is a metaphysical belief which has no real scientific support behind it. If you disagree with that assessment pick an example of some organism or organ and explain empirically step-by-step (citing experiments and natural world observation) how it naturally, gradually and accidentally (not intentionally) evolved. Just claiming that it somehow could have evolved is not an empirical or scientific explanation, it’s just metaphysical hand waving. To be clear I do think that natural changes due to natural selection and/or genetic drift etc. does explain micro evolutionary change but micro evolutionary change is not sufficient to explain that kind of change required by Darwin’s original theory which was purported to explain all evolutionary change. john_a_designer

Clueless:

You first have to publish the ID research for your conclusions to be considered.

We use scientific research to reach a design inference. What does your position use to reach its inference?

But ID, for obvious reasons, refuses to entertain discussions about the nature of their inferred designer or the mechanisms that this designer may use to bring their designs to fruition.

The obvious reason is that we don't even ask about the who or how until AFTER (intelligent) design has been determined. That said, IDists have done exactly that, ie discussed the nature and mechanisms. So clearly you are just a willfully ignorant troll. There are many artifacts that we still don't know how they were built. And yet we know with 100% certainty that they are artifacts. And we know the capability of the designers/ builders by what they left behind. We would never infer the ancients were capable of designing and building the Antikythera mechanism if we had never found it. Clearly our opponents do not understand how to conduct an investigation. ET

Clueless:

Could you provide some references to the published research that has used irreducible complexity, specified complexity, explanatory filter, fine tuning or other ID arguments to infer that an intelligent designer is the best explanation for life and life’s diversity? I would very much like to read them.

Could you provide some references to the published research that has used anything to infer that the blind watchmaker is the best explanation for life and life’s diversity? I would very much like to read them. Is there any such thing as unguided evolutionary, blind watchmaker, research? What predictions are borne from it? I would like very much to read them. ET

People often say Socrates got his start in philosophy with the "know thyself" oracle. But, according to his own account (at least as recorded by Plato) Socrates claims ID was the main thing that motivated him in his philosophical quest: "One day I heard someone reading, as he said, from a book of Anaxagoras, and saying that it is Mind that directs and is the cause of everything. I was delighted with this cause and it seemed to me good, in a way, that Mind should be the cause of all. I thought that if this were so, the directing Mind would direct everything and arrange each thing in the way that was best. If then one wished to know the cause of each thing, why it comes to be or perishes or exists, one had to find what was the best way for it to be, or to be acted upon or to act. On these premises then it befitted a man to investigate only, about this and other things, what is best..." - Phaedo, Plato Thus, insofar as it is correct to say Plato and Socrates started the Western philosophical tradition, then it is also correct to say that ID started the Western philosophical tradition. EricMH

Historian Michael Flannery argues that ID as a distinct non-religious philosophical idea actually began with the ancient Greeks. He traces its beginning to the pre-Socratic philosopher Anaxagoras.

Anaxagoras’ biographer in the Dictionary of Scientific Biography, James Longrigg, points out that his ideas on matter and astronomy “although strikingly rational” were not that influential. But his view of an “immaterial moving cause,” the Nous or Mind, that set everything in motion, “paved the way for a fully teleological view of nature.” It has been said that his concept of Nous as an activating motive force in nature earned him the sobriquet “Mr. Mind.” Anaxagoras gave explanations for the luminescence of the moon, the solstices, comets, eclipses, and other astronomical phenomena. He even delved into embryology, meteorology, geology, and cosmology. He, along with the other pre-Socratics who tried to establish a rational explanation for everything, fostered the kind of systematic thinking essential to scientific inquiry. Far from being an opponent of evolution, Anaxagoras was actually an early contributor to it. “According to Plato and Aristotle,” writes the famous American geologist-paleontologist Henry Fairfield Osborn, “this philosopher was the first to attribute adaptation in Nature to Intelligent Design, and was thus the founder of Teleology” (From the Greeks to Darwin: The Development of the Evolution Idea Through Twenty-Four Centuries). According to Osborn, Anaxagoras’ contribution of design in nature was actually predicated upon an appreciation of the processes of adaptation, a foundational concept in evolutionary thought.

https://evolutionnews.org/2016/01/intelligent_des_23/ In other words, Mind not matter is fundamental to explaining why the world is the way it is. Creationism is based on a religious text-- the Jewish-Christian scriptures. ID, on the other hand, is a philosophical inference from nature itself. Even materialists recognize the possibility that nature is designed. Richard Dawkins, for example, has argued that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” So what is Dawkins argument? Let’s try out his quote as the main premise.

Premise 1: “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” Premise 2: I (Dawkins) believes that “design” is only an appearance. Conclusion: Therefore, nothing we study in the biosphere is designed.

Based on what? Are Dawkin’s beliefs and opinions self evidently true? john_a_designer

KF, You are correct of course, the location itself is unimportant. I'd never heard of PGM before; the enclosed garden is very nice (unlike much of the rest of Chicago, which I find to be hideous). daveS

DS, I don't care if it was a basement in his over-indulgent granny's house, or his room at some hostel for the homeless run by the Salvation Army or Pacific Garden Mission [remember the status of Monks? did the Angelic Doctor have much more than a monk's cell?]. The fundamental issue is on the table, on the merits:

Genetic cybernetics preceded human consciousness in its algorithmic programming and control. Nucleic acid instructions reside in linear, resortable, digital, and unidirectionally read sign sequences. Prescriptive information instructs and manages even epigenetic factors through the production of diverse regulatory proteins and small RNA’s . . . Nucleotide selections at each locus in the biopolymeric string correspond to algorithmic switch-settings at successive decision nodes. Nucleotide additions are configurable switches. Selection must occur at the genetic level prior to selection at the phenotypic level, in order to achieve programming of computational utility . . . Law-like cause-and-effect determinism precludes freedom of selection so critical to algorithmic control. Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) requires this added programming dimension of freedom of selection at successive decision nodes in the string. A sign represents each genetic decision-node selection.

That is, we are dealing with code bearing units that encode algorithmic instructions (requiring string data structures). This manifests language (codes) and purpose (algorithms), antecedent to cell based life on earth, much less our own conscious minds. Such, are strong signs of the design of life and open up onward questions on designers. KF kairosfocus

The Origin-of-Life Foundation, Inc.

i.e., David Abel's house in a suburb of Washington, D.C. :P daveS

F/N: Abel and Trevors, here, in a sleeper article: https://www.academia.edu/1204137/Abel_D.L._Trevors_J.T._2006_More_than_metaphor_Genomes_are_objective_sign_systems_ Journal_of_BioSemiotics_1_2_253-267 Journal of BioSemiotics 2006 1(2): 253-267 MORE THAN METAPHOR: GENOMES ARE OBJECTIVE SIGN SYSTEMS David L Abel 1 and Jack T. Trevors 2 1 The Gene Emergence Project, The Origin-of-Life Foundation, Inc. 113 Hedgewood Dr. Greenbelt, MD 20770-1610 USA 2 Professor, Department of Environmental Biology University of Guelph, Rm 3220 Bovey Building Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1 ABSTRACT Genetic cybernetics preceded human consciousness in its algorithmic programming and control. Nucleic acid instructions reside in linear, resortable, digital, and unidirectionally read sign sequences. Prescriptive information instructs and manages even epigenetic factors through the production of diverse regulatory proteins and small RNA’s. The “meaning” (significance) of prescriptive information is the function that information instructs or produces at its metabolic destination. Constituents of the cytoplasmic environment (e.g., chaperones, regulatory proteins, transport proteins, small RNA’s) contribute to epigenetic influence. But the rigid covalently-bound sequence of these players constrains their minimum-free-energy folding space. Weaker H-bonds, charge interactions, hydrophobicities, and van der Waals forces act on completed primary structures. Nucleotide selections at each locus in the biopolymeric string correspond to algorithmic switch-settings at successive decision nodes. Nucleotide additions are configurable switches. Selection must occur at the genetic level prior to selection at the phenotypic level, in order to achieve programming of computational utility. This is called the GS Principle. Law-like cause-and-effect determinism precludes freedom of selection so critical to algorithmic control. Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) requires this added programming dimension of freedom of selection at successive decision nodes in the string. A sign represents each genetic decision-node selection. Algorithms are processes or procedures that produce a needed result, whether it is computation or the end products of biochemical pathways. Algorithmic programming alone accounts for biological organization. Food for thought KF kairosfocus

PaV, we are all ears. KF kairosfocus

KF, Well done! Thanks. PS. Will try and comment later if possible. PaoloV

SAZ, prezactly. Hence long sustained accusations of the order, "[Biblical] Creationism in a cheap tuxedo." KF PS: By contrast, we can show a real case of ideological manipulation, right out of the horse's mouth:

. . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads

[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]

we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,

[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]

and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth

[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]

. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident

[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]

that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]

--> The reactions to exposing this cat out of the bag moment have been all too telling, ever since 1997. kairosfocus

stalk·ing horse noun 1. a false pretext concealing someone's real intentions. "you have used me simply as a stalking horse for some of your more outrageous views" 2. a screen traditionally made in the shape of a horse behind which a hunter can stay concealed when stalking prey. ~ google.com SmartAZ

T, inferring arson pivots on accepting the possibility of a relevant arsonist; as opposed to assuming any particular arsonist. In that context, accelerants etc are reliable signs of arson. Finding such is then empirical warrant for the further inference that arsonists were at work. Further onward lies the question of suspects and actual conviction. Arbitrarily ruling out considering the possibility is a way to ideologically decide the matter by selectively hyperskeptical question-begging and linked closing of the mind, especially if such hold lockout power. Unjustifiable lockout is censorship. [--> I add, see here for a case on how such is done today] KF kairosfocus

Yeah... I don't think that providing evidence or certain aspects of a Designer is actually needed when inferring design. Godel pointed this out quite clearly. Trumper

BB, the literature is there, period. It has been pointed out to you previously, just ignored. There is a literature on fine tuning since the 1950's and on life since 1984. KF PS: For record, DI on the peer reviewed pubs to March 2017

BIBLIOGRAPHIC AND ANNOTATED LIST OF PEER-REVIEWED PUBLICATIONS SUPPORTING INTELLIGENT DESIGN UPDATED MARCH, 2017 [--> I am not bothering to further update] PART I: INTRODUCTION While intelligent design (ID) research is a new scientific field, recent years have been a period of encouraging growth, producing a strong record of peer-reviewed scientific publications. In 2011, the ID movement counted its 50th peer-reviewed scientific paper and new publications continue to appear. As of 2015, the peer-reviewed scientific publication count had reached 90. Many of these papers are recent, published since 2004, when Discovery Institute senior fellow Stephen Meyer published a groundbreaking paper advocating ID in the journal Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. There are multiple hubs of ID-related research. Biologic Institute, led by molecular biologist Doug Axe, is "developing and testing the scientific case for intelligent design in biology." Biologic conducts laboratory and theoretical research on the origin and role of information in biology, the fine-tuning of the universe for life, and methods of detecting design in nature. Another ID research group is the Evolutionary Informatics Lab, founded by senior Discovery Institute fellow William Dembski along with Robert Marks, Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Baylor University. Their lab has attracted graduate-student researchers and published multiple peer-reviewed articles in technical science and engineering journals showing that computer programming ”points to the need for an ultimate information source qua intelligent designer." Other pro-ID scientists around the world are publishing peer-reviewed pro-ID scientific papers. These include biologist Ralph Seelke at the University of Wisconsin Superior, Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig who recently retired from the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Germany, and Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe. These and other labs and researchers have published their work in a variety of appropriate technical venues, including peer-reviewed scientific journals, peer-reviewed scientific books (some published by mainstream university presses), trade-press books, peer-edited scientific anthologies, peer-edited scientific conference proceedings and peer-reviewed philosophy of science journals and books. These papers have appeared in scientific journals such as Protein Science, Journal of Molecular Biology, Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics, Complexity, Quarterly Review of Biology, Cell Biology International, Physics Essays, Rivista di Biologia / Biology Forum, Physics of Life Reviews, Quarterly Review of Biology, Journal of Bacteriology , Annual Review of Genetics, and many others. At the same time, pro-ID scientists have presented their research at conferences worldwide in fields such as genetics, biochemistry, engineering, and computer science. Collectively, this body of research is converging on a consensus: complex biological features cannot arise by unguided Darwinian mechanisms, but require an intelligent cause. Despite ID’s publication record, we note parenthetically that recognition in peer-reviewed literature is not an absolute requirement to demonstrate an idea’s scientific merit. Darwin’s own theory of evolution was first published in a book for a general and scientific audience -- his Origin of Species -- not in a peer-reviewed paper. Nonetheless, ID’s peer-reviewed publication record shows that it deserves -- and is receiving -- serious consideration by the scientific community. The purpose of ID’s budding research program is thus to engage open-minded scientists and thoughtful laypersons with credible, persuasive, peer-reviewed, empirical data supporting intelligent design. And this is happening. ID has already gained the kind of scientific recognition you would expect from a young (and vastly underfunded) but promising scientific field . . .

kairosfocus

KF

It is astonishing to see from you the continued canard that there is no published ID research in the relevant professional literature.

Could you provide some references to the published research that has used irreducible complexity, specified complexity, explanatory filter, fine tuning or other ID arguments to infer that an intelligent designer is the best explanation for life and life’s diversity? I would very much like to read them. Brother Brian

EMH, I am answering i/l/o a raft of objections known to be in play. Simplistic answers cannot be given when we see the sort of hostile scrutiny that is going on. And yes the catch-22 loaded question game is all too familiar. KF kairosfocus

F, the who created God talking point is not a scientific one but a philosophical ine. It reflects ignorance of the difference between contingent and necessary being. To see, try to imagine a world where duality or two-ness does not exist or can cease to exist. Not possible.. KF kairosfocus

BB, It is astonishing to see from you the continued canard that there is no published ID research in the relevant professional literature. That was false when Judge Jones swallowed NCSE and ACLU talking points whole c 2005, and it is far more falsified today. That's also been repeatedly pointed out to you but you persist with a false insinuation. That speaks volumes. Second, had you attended to the OP (and EMH you are right) you would have seen that the issue is the POSSIBILITY of intelligences capable of directing relevant complex functional configurations. It is only the selectively hyperskeptical insistence that we disregard the POSSIBILITY that then allows those with institutional and media power to effectively silence relevant evidence. A neat rhetorical and agit prop trick, but it doesn't help us get anywhere towards building a well warranted picture of what caused the FSCO/I in original life and in novel body plans. Here's the deal: we know that designers exist -- we are designers. We see other designers, such as beavers, too. We also know that intelligently directed configuration often leaves signs that we can observe in objects. So, once we are open to the possibility of designers we can let similar signs from the past of origins speak in their own voices. Then, on the strength of the evidence pointing to design as process, we may ponder what possible candidates may look like. For the world of life, accumulating evidence lets us know that a molecular nanotech lab is a potentially adequate candidate. That's why ID theorists from Thaxton et al on have never inferred that simple evidence of design of cell based life on earth is evidence of a designer beyond the cosmos. By contrast, by definition, the designer of a fine tuned cosmos is antecedent to that cosmos. Both your main talking points fail. KF PS: Your attempt to attach designing rationality to embodiment also fails, as was pointed out in the OP. You were corrected previously, but have doubled down. PPS: Your attempt to declare that ID thinkers refuse (suggestion: self-servingly) to entertain discussion about designers looks particularly tattered when it appears as an objection to an OP where I do just what you suggest we don't do. In so doing, I have to cross disciplinary boundaries and address logic of being, i.e. ontology. Philosophy, which is not science. kairosfocus

BB

But we know with absolute certainty that arsonists exist.

Some people say that they know it. Some say that they are capable of knowing something with absolute certainty. Others disagree. It's difficult to prove without accepting some primal, unprovable laws of reason.

But ID, for obvious reasons, refuses to entertain discussions about the nature of their inferred designer …

There shouldn't be any objections here because the reasons are, indeed, obvious. Discussions about the nature of an immaterial designer would require a different set of tools and disciplines, and ID is scientific research that cannot investigate the nature of immaterial entities. The designer of the universe, for example, cannot be a material entity and therefore cannot be researched or analyzed by science. Silver Asiatic

@Vmahuna, rather I'd lay the blame on illiterate readers. KF's prose is highly technical and extensive, but I can understand what he is saying. I believe the issue is that KF is providing a comprehensive detail on all levels, which leads to highly complex explanations. However, this is not illiterate, and is perhaps necessitated by a lot of the willful misunderstandings prevalent on this forum. It is a classic gotcha I've seen many times: 1. Try a simple explanation, interlocutor presents many technical complaints. 2. Try a highly technical explanation, interlocutor complains it is too complex to understand. KF is going out of his way to explain these concepts in the mode of #2 to avoid the problem of #1. So, if you desire explanations in the mode of #1, then refrain from quibbling over technical details omitted in preference of avoiding #2. Otherwise, KF is well justified in laying the charge of illiteracy at your feet. EricMH

F

Grant us the conclusions of ID research and then together we can explore who or what did the designing!

You first have to publish the ID research for your conclusions to be considered.

As the OP says, you don’t go looking for an arsonist until you’ve first decided there was arson committed.

But we know with absolute certainty that arsonists exist. We know that they are all physical in nature (human, not immaterial beings). We know their capabilities and limitations. We know the techniques available to them to start and spread a fire. At no time does a fire investigator claim that the nature of an arsonist and the mechanisms available to them are beyond the scope of the investigation. In fact, they would argue that this information is critical to the investigation and the determination of arson. But ID, for obvious reasons, refuses to entertain discussions about the nature of their inferred designer or the mechanisms that this designer may use to bring their designs to fruition. Brother Brian

This is similar to the "Who created God?" question often asked by anti-ID people. ID exists to show that the world as we know it has attributes that are best explained by an intelligent design agency of some sort. Most people then point to God as the agent, but ID does not go that far, because, as the OP says, finding evidence of design does not identify who or what did the designing, other than it must have been intelligent. The anti-ID question is therefore irrelevant to the ID science. Grant us the conclusions of ID research and then together we can explore who or what did the designing! As the OP says, you don't go looking for an arsonist until you've first decided there was arson committed. Fasteddious

Post 5, points 1e and g answer my question in the affirmative. hazel

OK, I simply gave up after the first 3 or 4 paragraphs. You might wanna go talk to an English major about how punctuation, especially commas, is used in writing by non-illiterate people. You, of course, are an amazing example of the Illiterate. I don't really care what you think you have to say if you have no means of conveying your ideas. I'll put your name on my list of "Folks Not To Bother Reading". vmahuna

H, first I did answer your question (which in light of the toxic atmosphere around to me seems to require significant context), and in so doing I referred to the theme and the opening part of the argument in the OP. KF PS: for clarity, let me go through on points: >>1. Once one infers design,>> a: One has to first establish what design is, intelligently directed configuration, and thus that it requires entities capable of such. b: Design actually is, and has signs that are empirically reliable hallmarks. c: Design inference is in the context of cause and three alternative main possibilities: blind chance and/or mechanical dynamical necessity and/or intelligently directed configuration. d: As the inference filter above shows, one may only reliably infer design on signs that for relevant aspects of an entity or process etc, are not plausibly produced by the first two, leaving only the third as reasonable. e: However, to be willing to infer to design one has to be willing to accept that intelligences capable of so acting are possibly present at relevant loci. >>then it is reasonable to infer that an intelligent designer exists, or has existed, but>> f: Primary inference is to design as causal process, but by its nature it requires a capable intelligence to do the directing and configuring. g: On adequate evidence of design as key causal process, then it is a secondary inference that an intelligence of adequate capability was present at the relevant point. h: That is, a designer, though as noted detection of arson is not detection of arsonists. >>2. the inference of the existence of a designer is separate from the issue of identifying that designer.>> i: Indeed, but this must be premised on having done the work outlined above first, it is not a weak assumption or assertion. kairosfocus

kf, you went off on other topics and didn't answer my question. I am not questioning the design inference, nor accusing anyone of stealth creationism (whatever that means). In an effort to clearly understand, I'd like to know if this is an accurate statement, which I've rewritten a bit for clarity. 1. Once one infers design, then it is reasonable to infer that an intelligent designer exists, or has existed, but 2. the inference of the existence of a designer is separate from the issue of identifying that designer. hazel

Hazel, Design as process is manifest on signs such as FSCO/I, but to allow such an inference one must be willing to accept the POSSIBILITY of intelligently directed configuration. Once that possibility is not locked out a priori by whatever means, then the signs do point to design as key causal process, where -- on needle in haystack search challenge -- an intelligence of some character is clearly required to provide the direction and configuration/functional organisation beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. Of what identity, character and ontological status, is yet to be determined at that stage. the OP explores that and highlights that on cases of relevance, ontology is a part of onward reasoning. But if one begs the question ideologically and hyperskeptically, one will reject any and all evidence that points where one refuses to go. Acknowledging the possibility of a designer and being open to follow where signs of design point is the very opposite of the accusation, presuming a designer but concealing it in a pretence of science. That slander is just what NCSE, ACLU and others including Wikipedia have sustained for literally decades now in the teeth of any and all well warranted and easily accessible correction. This is part of why I hold them utterly irresponsible and in certain cases the evidence points to willful deceit. And yes, that is itself a design inference on signs. To clear out the toxic atmosphere of polarisation and confusion backed up by agit prop and serious but dirty money, I again point to the case on the table in the OP, from its opening words:

One of the notorious talking points used by inveterate objectors to design theory, is that it is about stealth creationism. Closely tied, is the suggestion (or, assumption) that the claim that design inference on empirical sign only warrants inference to design as process is a dishonest stalking horse. Given a long saddening track record of career and hobbyist objectors, unsurprisingly, that is false. A simple case — and “case” is itself significant — easily shows why. About seven years ago, one night, fires broke out in two of Montserrat’s court houses, and did considerable damage (including to records). After they were put out, investigators found signs of accelerants. For cause, they inferred arson. However, they were unable to infer onward to credibly suspected arsonists. Why? Want of a cluster of facts and logic, never mind that popular suspicion did attach to persons believed to benefit from loss of records. As any lawyer can tell, motive, means, opportunity backed up by evidence are the foundation stones on which a court reaches sound judgement. (Kangaroo courts do exist, but leaping to a predetermined conclusion without fair process is not sound process.)

KF kairosfocus

I'm not about to try to read and try to make sense of all that, but I think in another thread kf did say that once one infers design, which I gather is what kf's post is about, then it is reasonable to infer that an intelligent designer exists, or has existed, and that the inference of design is separate from identifying that designer. Is this an accurate statement? hazel

Inferring onward, from design to designer kairosfocus