Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Inferring onward, from design to designer

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One of the notorious talking points used by inveterate objectors to design theory, is that it is about stealth creationism. Closely tied, is the suggestion (or, assumption) that the claim that design inference on empirical sign only warrants inference to design as process is a dishonest stalking horse.

Given a long saddening track record of career and hobbyist objectors, unsurprisingly, that is false.

A simple case — and “case” is itself significant — easily shows why. About seven years ago, one night, fires broke out in two of Montserrat’s court houses, and did considerable damage (including to records).

After they were put out, investigators found signs of accelerants. For cause, they inferred arson. However, they were unable to infer onward to credibly suspected arsonists. Why? Want of a cluster of facts and logic, never mind that popular suspicion did attach to persons believed to benefit from loss of records. As any lawyer can tell, motive, means, opportunity backed up by evidence are the foundation stones on which a court reaches sound judgement. (Kangaroo courts do exist, but leaping to a predetermined conclusion without fair process is not sound process.)

In short, the design inference is much like the progress of investigation of an event: are mechanical necessity and/or chance adequate to explain, or is intentionally, intelligently directed configuration a more credible explanation, given signs s1, s2 . . . sn?

Let’s elaborate, using the per aspect design explanatory filter flowchart:

The per aspect design inference explanatory filter

We see here, that proof — or, warrant — of design as credible causal process is a case of showing warrant beyond reasonable doubt, with TWO defaults that point elsewhere: chance and/or mechanical necessity. That is, some combination of mechanical and/or stochastic laws acting on a plausible initial condition of a relevant substrate. That is, we here first consider the action of a dynamic-stochastic system, driven by forces and factors amenable to analysis on differential and/or difference equations with potential stochastic components. (And no, this is not “reification” of chance, we here appeal to things such as the random behaviour of molecules or the like.)

Illustrating, to refresh our memories:

Yes, it is when an explanatory model like this (up to and including conditions on our planet leading up to Darwin’s pond or the like, or whatever antecedents to the observed cosmos are suggested as leading up to the big bang singularity) FAILS, that design as process is on the table. Where, the ontological distance between design and designer is the same as between arson and credibly convicted arsonists.

Let’s add on the linked needle in haystack, islands of function, hill climbing challenges that are too often overlooked:

But, we are going somewhere with this, a case study on identifying a culprit.

Case in point, consider the text of this post, and by extension, that of the Internet, Libraries etc. We here have functionally specific organisation, manifesting associated information. FSCO/I for short, well beyond the 500 – 1,000 bit threshold that points to overwhelming needle in haystack challenge:

Reppert, has a key point; let’s refresh our memories yet again . . . it needs to sink in:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

Rationality requires this sort of freely arrived at inference, and is a sign in itself. That is, a blindly mechanical, dynamic-stochastic, composite computational substrate based on organised interactions of constituent parts — see the model summary above — cannot adequately explain designs. We are now in logic of being territory (which is a branch of metaphysics, literally beyond [the study of] physics . . nature), and the extended Smith Model is now on the table:

Yes, the prime suspect for designs emanating from certain familiar bio-cybernetic entities is a non-computational, non-algorithmic, supervisory oracle. A mind, in short.

Where, 2360 years ago, Plato pointed to such in his The Laws, Bk X:

Cle. . . . I should like to know how this happens.
Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular.
Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir.

Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods.

Cle. Still I do not understand you.

Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul’s kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body?

Cle. Certainly.

Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind.

Cle. But why is the word “nature” wrong?

Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise.
[[ . . . .]

Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second.
[[ . . . .]

Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it?

Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life?

Ath. I do.

Cle. Certainly we should.

Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life?
[[ . . . . ]

Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul?

Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things?

Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things.

Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer?

Cle. Exactly.

Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler?
[[ . . . . ]

Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]

In short, rationality required for design raises serious ontological issues. Accordingly, inference from design/arson to designer/arsonist is an ontologically laden exercise. We may empirically acknowledge the reality of designers, but once we ponder what enables ability to design, we are in logic of being territory.

Immediately, this shows the fundamental error in the notion that on evidence of signs of design we are only warranted to infer to human or human-like embodied designers. For, the rational roots of design point to our being mind over matter amphibians, bio-cybernetic entities with supervisory oracles that simply don’t work in the way dynamic-stochastic computational substrates do.

Those who imagine that such designs cannot influence a closed mechanistic-stochastic world, are similarly invited to ponder: why, apart from question-begging a priori imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism or its fellow travellers, do you think this?

Doesn’t the Casimir effect already point to observable quantum field influences that are below the limits of Energy-Time uncertainty relations?

Casimir effect summary {Fair Use}

So, why is it dismissed that we may have quantum-level influences on the brain etc as I/O in-the-loop controller? That’s why Scott Calef argued:

Keith Campbell writes, “The indeterminacy of quantum laws means that any one of a range of outcomes of atomic events in the brain is equally compatible with known physical laws. And differences on the quantum scale can accumulate into very great differences in overall brain condition. So there is some room for spiritual activity even within the limits set by physical law. There could be, without violation of physical law, a general spiritual constraint upon what occurs inside the head.” (p.54). Mind could act upon physical processes by “affecting their course but not breaking in upon them.” (p.54). If this is true, the dualist could maintain the conservation principle but deny a fluctuation in energy because the mind serves to “guide” or control neural events by choosing one set of quantum outcomes rather than another. Further, it should be remembered that the conservation of energy is designed around material interaction; it is mute on how mind might interact with matter. After all, a Cartesian rationalist might insist, if God exists we surely wouldn’t say that He couldn’t do miracles just because that would violate the first law of thermodynamics, would we? [Article, “Dualism and Mind,” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.]

Similarly, let us ponder Penrose and Hameroff:

It is argued that elementary acts of consciousness are non-algorithmic, i.e., non-computable, and they are neurophysiologically realized as gravitation-induced reductions of coherent superposition states in microtubuli . . . . Penrose’s rationale for invoking state reduction is not that the corresponding randomness offers room for mental causation to become efficacious (although this is not excluded). His conceptual starting point, at length developed in two books (Penrose 1989, 1994), is that elementary conscious acts must be non-algorithmic. Phrased differently, the emergence of a conscious act is a process which cannot be described algorithmically, hence cannot be computed. His background in this respect has a lot to do with the nature of creativity, mathematical insight, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, and the idea of a Platonic reality beyond mind and matter . . . . With his background as an anaesthesiologist, Hameroff suggested to consider microtubules as an option for where reductions of quantum states can take place in an effective way, see e.g., Hameroff and Penrose (1996). The respective quantum states are assumed to be coherent superpositions of tubulin states, ultimately extending over many neurons. Their simultaneous gravitation-induced collapse is interpreted as an individual elementary act of consciousness. The proposed mechanism by which such superpositions are established includes a number of involved details that remain to be confirmed or disproven.

Maybe, the time has come for some serious re-thinking. For, we have the freedom to think. END

Comments
Back at 53, kf wrote,
I do note — as a caution — that someone here does not understand bullying and linked sociopathic patterns — there are people who lack empathy and conscience to restrain themselves from dangerous and even life-threatening abuse. You cannot ignore violence, reckless behaviour, abuse of authority and serious threats, especially when a pattern shows up.
Is this sentence actually about someone discussing things here at UD? If so, who? Those are extremely strong words to apply to the participants on some little internet forum where the people don't know each other, have no physical contact with each other, and at worst argue with each other somewhat uncivilly at times. What and/or who did you have in mind when you wrote that???hazel
June 16, 2019
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Another layer of regulation? tRNAs are the central adaptor molecules in translation. Their decoding properties are influenced by post-transcriptional modifications, particularly in the critical anticodon-stem-loop (ASL) region. Synonymous codon choice, also called codon usage bias, affects both translation efficiency and accuracy, and ASL modifications play key roles in both of these processes. [...] as more cases emerge, it does seem that tRNA modification changes could add another layer of regulation in the transfer of information from DNA to protein. Can Protein Expression Be Regulated by Modulation of tRNA Modification Profiles? Leticia Pollo-Oliveira, Valérie de Crécy-Lagard Biochemistry 2019585355-362 https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.biochem.8b01035OLV
June 16, 2019
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@58 clarification of text It must be really depressing for them to see their strongest arguments being on the losing side of the debate. Seeing the avalanche of research papers describing amazing discoveries that debunk their ideas and confirm the ID paradigm should be quite discouraging to those atheist/materialists. But perhaps they are obliviously unaware of that?OLV
June 16, 2019
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KF @54: "it seems many have been indoctrinated to ignore or suppress manifest signs that we are seeing coded language and algorithms at work with associated molecular nanotech execution machinery. The resistance to strong evidence of intelligently directed configuration is an index of ideological polarisation." "it is telling that after ever so much objections as to how, suspiciously, design thinkers do not address the designer, when an OP is put up that does, by and large the objectors side step the focal issue and its substantial warrant. That tells us that the objection was not genuine, it was just a handy rhetorical talking point." Agree. It must be really depressing to see your arguments being on the losing side of the debate. Seeing the avalanche of research papers describing amazing discoveries that confirm the ID paradigm should be quite discouraging to those atheist/materialists. But perhaps they are obliviously unaware of that?OLV
June 16, 2019
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Deleted comments are an attempt by the thread-owner to focus the discussion as closely as possible to the topic at hand. It is a means of treating these discussions as if they are published-commentaries, and therefore subject to an editor. I favor that, myself. I know it is unpopular and difficult to see the words you've written end up deleted from the page, but it's a disciplinary process. I would possibly go farther and delete or edit responses that repeat objections that have already been answered in the same thread, or which display ignorance of responses that have already been given. All of this runs the risk of killing off good discussions, but I think the risk is minimal. A quantity of talk does not substitute for a quality discussion. If everyone wants to learn through challenge, debate, research and thoughtful exchange, then deleting off-topic, unnecessary, distracting, evasive, personal or otherwise pointless comments would be a benefit. It's like pruning a plant. Cutting off the dead or weak leaves promotes healthier growth. If you lost a post due to editing, then just try again with something that is more directly on-topic. It might also be helpful if the thread-owner, with some courtesy, appended a comment to each deletion giving a brief reason. in afterthought, all of that said - a vast majority of comments here where various clippings from articles are posted, many very fascinating, are strictly speaking off topic in the way I presented it, so there would be quite a lot of deletions even from the pro-ID side. So, it's a matter of discretion. It's a lot easier just to keep an open-comment policy except for abuse, etc.Silver Asiatic
June 16, 2019
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Jawa, Your off-topic comment doesn’t belong in this discussion. You should have posted it in the appropriate thread.
I would normally agree. But when your comment is changed to “Comment deleted -WJM” it is difficult for people to judge the validity of the comment for themselves. In my opinion, what WJM is doing is just cowardly bullying. I give credit to KF. He very rarely uses the censor button, and it is almost always associated with the use of inappropriate language or personal attacks. And, when he does this, he usually provides an explanation.Brother Brian
June 16, 2019
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In my opinion I think in these discussion we need to consider the interlocutor’s world view or basic philosophical assumptions up front. Philosophical not scientific assumptions are his true starting point. Any claims on his part to the contrary is not only intellectually but ethically dishonest. The philosophical naturalist (or materialists-- all materialists are naturalists) has deluded himself into thinking he has a trump card which bolsters his hand… science. The problem is that there are no trump cards in the high stakes world view ontological game. This is because in order to even begin to play the game you must establish the ground of being. You must begin by asking some basic questions. For example, you must ask, why does anything at all exist? Or, what is the nature of existence? How do we know? How can we be sure of what we know? Can we really know the truth about anything? However these are metaphysical questions, not questions that can be answered by science itself. Einstein said that scientists are poor philosophers. That perhaps explains why there are some scientists who believe that science can actually serve as a basis for a world view that can answer some of our biggest questions—at least those that they think are worthwhile. The late American astronomer Carl Sagan, for example, proclaimed that “the Cosmos is all that there is or ever was or ever will be.” (That is a claim that is not scientifically provable.) And, Nobel Prize winner Steven Weinberg opines that while “the worldview of science is rather chilling” there is, nevertheless, he goes on to say, “a grim satisfaction, in facing up to our condition without despair and without wishful thinking--with good humor… without God.” And then there is Harvard professor of psychology Steven Pinker who takes a scientifically based world view just about to its absolute limit. Pinker writes that,
the findings of science entail that the belief systems of all the world’s traditional religions and cultures—their theories of the origins of life, humans, and societies—are factually mistaken. We know, but our ancestors did not, that humans belong to a single species of African primate that developed agriculture, government, and writing late in its history. We know that our species is a tiny twig of a genealogical tree that embraces all living things and that emerged from prebiotic chemicals almost four billion years ago. We know that we live on a planet that revolves around one of a hundred billion stars in our galaxy, which is one of a hundred billion galaxies in a 13.8-billion-year-old universe, possibly one of a vast number of universes. We know that our intuitions about space, time, matter, and causation are incommensurable with the nature of reality on scales that are very large and very small. We know that the laws governing the physical world (including accidents, disease, and other misfortunes) have no goals that pertain to human well-being. There is no such thing as fate, providence, karma, spells, curses, augury, divine retribution, or answered prayers—though the discrepancy between the laws of probability and the workings of cognition may explain why people believe there are. And we know that we did not always know these things, that the beloved convictions of every time and culture may be decisively falsified, doubtless including some we hold today. In other words, the worldview that guides the moral and spiritual values of an educated person today is the worldview given to us by science.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities On the other hand, there are other scientists, including some who are non-religious, even agnostic or atheistic, who see the folly of this kind of thinking. For example, Sir Peter Medawar, also a Nobel laureate, was one scientist who spoke out against this so called scientism. He wrote in his book, Advice to a Young Scientist:
“There is no quicker way for a scientist to bring discredit upon himself and upon his profession than roundly to declare – particularly when no declaration of any kind is called for – that science knows, or soon will know, the answers to all questions worth asking, and that questions which do not admit a scientific answer are in some way non-questions or ‘pseudo-questions’ that only simpletons ask and only the gullible profess to be able to answer. … The existence of a limit to science is, however, made clear by its inability to answer childlike elementary questions having to do with first and last things – questions such as ‘How did everything begin?'; ‘What are we all here for?';’What is the point of living?'” Advice to a Young Scientist, London, Harper and Row, 1979 p.31
Also, Erwin Schrödinger, one of the early theorist of quantum physics, said something similar: “Science puts everything in a consistent order but is ghastly silent about everything that really matters to us: beauty, color, taste, pain or delight, origins, God and eternity.”john_a_designer
June 16, 2019
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OLV, it seems many have been indoctrinated to ignore or suppress manifest signs that we are seeing coded language and algorithms at work with associated molecular nanotech execution machinery. The resistance to strong evidence of intelligently directed configuration is an index of ideological polarisation. The thread above indicates to me that inveterate objectors most likely are not reading or processing the substantial arguments, they are only snipping and sniping to distract, trigger a hostile atmosphere and to dismiss. In this case, it is telling that after ever so much objections as to how, suspiciously, design thinkers do not address the designer, when an OP is put up that does, by and large the objectors side step the focal issue and its substantial warrant. That tells us that the objection was not genuine, it was just a handy rhetorical talking point. Sad. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2019
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EG, BB ET: We do not need a side stream of personalities. I do note -- as a caution -- that someone here does not understand bullying and linked sociopathic patterns -- there are people who lack empathy and conscience to restrain themselves from dangerous and even life-threatening abuse. You cannot ignore violence, reckless behaviour, abuse of authority and serious threats, especially when a pattern shows up. That holds in the schoolyard, on the job, or in a family. Trying to pretend that nothing is happening or minimising what is happening to a victim is a recipe for disaster, we call it enabling. Simple teasing, perhaps can be ignored for the moment until relevant authority has evidence to step in correctively. But even that can be a warning of dangerous abuse, from words, deeds spring and words themselves can do grave harm. That's why there are torts recognised in law about verbal abuse and attacks against innocent reputation. This problem is also precisely why so many inveterate objectors to design thought so often play out the trifecta fallacy of red herrings led out to strawmen caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight with incendiary rhetoric -- snide or blatant -- in order to poison, cloud, confuse and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. When we see objectors persistently using distractions and denigration, that is a sign they do not have a cogent, substantial answer. Above, I have stepped in correctively. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2019
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Decoding Mechanisms by which Silent Codon Changes Influence Protein Biogenesis and Function Vedrana Bali and Zsuzsanna Bebok https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biocel.2015.03.011 The more we know, more we have to learn.OLV
June 15, 2019
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Redundancy of the genetic code enables translational pausing David J. D'Onofrio and David L. Abel The codon redundancy (“degeneracy”) found in protein-coding regions of mRNA also prescribes Translational Pausing (TP). When coupled with the appropriate interpreters, multiple meanings and functions are programmed into the same sequence of configurable switch-settings. This additional layer of Ontological Prescriptive Information (PIo) purposely slows or speeds up the translation-decoding process within the ribosome. Variable translation rates help prescribe functional folding of the nascent protein. Redundancy of the codon to amino acid mapping, therefore, is anything but superfluous or degenerate. Redundancy programming allows for simultaneous dual prescriptions of TP and amino acid assignments without cross-talk. This allows both functions to be coincident and realizable. We will demonstrate that the TP schema is a bona fide rule-based code, conforming to logical code-like properties. Second, we will demonstrate that this TP code is programmed into the supposedly degenerate redundancy of the codon table. We will show that algorithmic processes play a dominant role in the realization of this multi-dimensional code. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2014.00140/fullOLV
June 15, 2019
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Dichotomy in the definition of prescriptive information suggests both prescribed data and prescribed algorithms: biosemiotics applications in genomic systems David J D'Onofrio, David L Abel, and Donald E Johnson https://tbiomed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1742-4682-9-8 The fields of molecular biology and computer science have cooperated over recent years to create a synergy between the cybernetic and biosemiotic relationship found in cellular genomics to that of information and language found in computational systems. Biological information frequently manifests its "meaning" through instruction or actual production of formal bio-function. Such information is called prescriptive information (PI). PI programs organize and execute a prescribed set of choices. Closer examination of this term in cellular systems has led to a dichotomy in its definition suggesting both prescribed data and prescribed algorithms are constituents of PI. This paper looks at this dichotomy as expressed in both the genetic code and in the central dogma of protein synthesis. An example of a genetic algorithm is modeled after the ribosome, and an examination of the protein synthesis process is used to differentiate PI data from PI algorithms.OLV
June 15, 2019
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Jawa, Your off-topic comment doesn’t belong in this discussion. You should have posted it in the appropriate thread.OLV
June 15, 2019
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OT: Something strange going on in another discussion thread: Brother Brian Deleted – WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of... ET Deleted - WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of... hazel Deleted - WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of... PaoloV Deleted - WJM — Mind vs Matter: the Result of... bornagain77 Deleted - WJM – Mind vs Matter: the Result of...jawa
June 15, 2019
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KF @23: „MORE THAN METAPHOR: GENOMES ARE OBJECTIVE SIGN SYSTEMS” Interesting paper you cited. Thanks.OLV
June 15, 2019
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Wow, two sock puppets from the same master supporting each other. How quaint. Brother Ed doesn't seem to be able to stay away. It thinks it can behave the same way that he tries to discourage and no one will notice. How pathetic are you, Ed? And BTW, I respond to your nonsense, and BB's, so that others can read how ignorant you are. I know you will never changeET
June 15, 2019
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BB
I learned as a kid that the best way to deal with a bully is to simply ignore them. They will continue to taunt and rant at you but by ignoring them the only one who looks like a pathetic fool is the bully.
Undoubtedly you are correct. But I have a harder time doing so. My solution, possibly a cowardly one, has been to stay away from sites that allow/encourage this type of behavior, popping in every now and then to see if things have changed.Ed George
June 15, 2019
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LoL! Evos are the bully wannabe's. They are the people spewing lies and nonsense. I am just sticking it right back to them and their cowardly ignorance. Of course I will be ignored by them. They live in willful ignorance and learning is the antithesis of their lives. So yes, ignore me and continue to look like pathetic fools. I know that it doesn't bother you. Only a coward would call someone a bully who merely corrects their ignorance.ET
June 15, 2019
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EG
I have not come to this site for a while and the first thing I see when I pop in is this. I guess it is time to leave again.
Thanks for the support, Ed. But I wouldn’t sweat it. I, like most, simply scroll past ET’s comments. I learned as a kid that the best way to deal with a bully is to simply ignore them. They will continue to taunt and rant at you but by ignoring them the only one who looks like a pathetic fool is the bully.Brother Brian
June 15, 2019
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PPPS: Web archive, on so-called methodological naturalism:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120111130041/http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Methodological_Naturalism ISCID Encyclopedia of Science and Philosophy - BETA Methodological Naturalism A methodological principle that some scientists think ought to guide science. Methodological naturalism requires that scientists limit themselves to nauralistic or materialistic explanations when they seek to explain natural phenomena, objects, or processes. On this understanding of how science ought to work, explanations that invoke intelligent causes or the actions of intelligent agents do not qualify as scientific.
--> I suppose practitioners of forensic or cryptological and archeological science etc would be surprised to find that intelligent cause is "unscientific" (at least, when that is inconvenient to those who impose or enable evolutionary materialistic scientism). --> Similarly, the demand for direct observation of designers in contexts where the point is that we cannot directly inspect the past or remote reaches of the cosmos, should be seen for what it too often is or becomes: a way to rhetorically lock out inconvenient indirect (circumstantial) evidence.kairosfocus
June 15, 2019
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PPS: As inveterate objectors tend to use the TL/DR excuse to evade cogent argument, let me highlight the lucky noise challenge:
“LUCKY NOISE” SCENARIO: Imagine a world in which somehow all the “real” messages sent “actually” vanish into cyberspace and “lucky noise” rooted in the random behaviour of molecules etc, somehow substitutes just the messages that were intended — of course, including whenever engineers or technicians use test equipment to debug telecommunication and computer systems! Can you find a law of logic or physics that: [a] strictly forbids such a state of affairs from possibly existing; and, [b] allows you to strictly distinguish that from the “observed world” in which we think we live? That is, we are back to a Russell “five- minute- old- universe”-type paradox. Namely, we cannot empirically distinguish the world we think we live in from one that was instantly created five minutes ago with all the artifacts, food in our tummies, memories etc. that we experience. We solve such paradoxes by worldview level inference to best explanation, i.e. by insisting that unless there is overwhelming, direct evidence that leads us to that conclusion, we do not live in Plato’s Cave of deceptive shadows that we only imagine is reality, or that we are “really” just brains in vats stimulated by some mad scientist, or we live in a The Matrix world, or the like . . . . A CASE STUDY ON CAUSAL FORCES/FACTORS — A Tumbling Die: Heavy objects tend to fall under the law-like natural regularity we call gravity. If the object is a die, the face that ends up on the top from the set {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6} is for practical purposes a matter of chance. But, if the die is cast as part of a game, the results are as much a product of agency as of natural regularity and chance. Indeed, the agents in question are taking advantage of natural regularities and chance to achieve their purposes!
kairosfocus
June 15, 2019
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PS: My longstanding note elaborates on lucky noise:
let us now consider in a little more detail a situation where an apparent message is received. What does that mean? What does it imply about the origin of the message . . . or, is it just noise that "got lucky"? If an apparent message is received, it means that something is working as an intelligible -- i.e. functional -- signal for the receiver. In effect, there is a standard way to make and send and recognise and use messages in some observable entity [e.g. a radio, a computer network, etc.], and there is now also some observed event, some variation in a physical parameter, that corresponds to it. [For instance, on this web page as displayed on your monitor, we have a pattern of dots of light and dark and colours on a computer screen, which correspond, more or less, to those of text in English.] Information theory, as Fig A.1 illustrates, then observes that if we have a receiver, we credibly have first had a transmitter, and a channel through which the apparent message has come; a meaningful message that corresponds to certain codes or standard patterns of communication and/or intelligent action. [Here, for instance, through HTTP and TCP/IP, the original text for this web page has been passed from the server on which it is stored, across the Internet, to your machine, as a pattern of binary digits in packets. Your computer then received the bits through its modem, decoded the digits, and proceeded to display the resulting text on your screen as a complex, functional coded pattern of dots of light and colour. At each stage, integrated, goal-directed intelligent action is deeply involved, deriving from intelligent agents -- engineers and computer programmers. We here consider of course digital signals, but in principle anything can be reduced to such signals, so this does not affect the generality of our thoughts.] Now, it is of course entirely possible, that the apparent message is "nothing but" a lucky burst of noise that somehow got through the Internet and reached your machine. That is, it is logically and physically possible [i.e. neither logic nor physics forbids it!] that every apparent message you have ever got across the Internet -- including not just web pages but also even emails you have received -- is nothing but chance and luck: there is no intelligent source that actually sent such a message as you have received; all is just lucky noise: "LUCKY NOISE" SCENARIO: Imagine a world in which somehow all the "real" messages sent "actually" vanish into cyberspace and "lucky noise" rooted in the random behaviour of molecules etc, somehow substitutes just the messages that were intended -- of course, including whenever engineers or technicians use test equipment to debug telecommunication and computer systems! Can you find a law of logic or physics that: [a] strictly forbids such a state of affairs from possibly existing; and, [b] allows you to strictly distinguish that from the "observed world" in which we think we live? That is, we are back to a Russell "five- minute- old- universe"-type paradox. Namely, we cannot empirically distinguish the world we think we live in from one that was instantly created five minutes ago with all the artifacts, food in our tummies, memories etc. that we experience. We solve such paradoxes by worldview level inference to best explanation, i.e. by insisting that unless there is overwhelming, direct evidence that leads us to that conclusion, we do not live in Plato's Cave of deceptive shadows that we only imagine is reality, or that we are "really" just brains in vats stimulated by some mad scientist, or we live in a The Matrix world, or the like. (In turn, we can therefore see just how deeply embedded key faith-commitments are in our very rationality, thus all worldviews and reason-based enterprises, including science. Or, rephrasing for clarity: "faith" and "reason" are not opposites; rather, they are inextricably intertwined in the faith-points that lie at the core of all worldviews. Thus, resorting to selective hyperskepticism and objectionism to dismiss another's faith-point [as noted above!], is at best self-referentially inconsistent; sometimes, even hypocritical and/or -- worse yet -- willfully deceitful. Instead, we should carefully work through the comparative difficulties across live options at worldview level, especially in discussing matters of fact. And it is in that context of humble self consistency and critically aware, charitable open-mindedness that we can now reasonably proceed with this discussion.) In short, none of us actually lives or can consistently live as though s/he seriously believes that: absent absolute proof to the contrary, we must believe that all is noise. [To see the force of this, consider an example posed by Richard Taylor. You are sitting in a railway carriage and seeing stones you believe to have been randomly arranged, spelling out: "WELCOME TO WALES." Would you believe the apparent message? Why or why not?] Q: Why then do we believe in intelligent sources behind the web pages and email messages that we receive, etc., since we cannot ultimately absolutely prove that such is the case? ANS: Because we believe the odds of such "lucky noise" happening by chance are so small, that we intuitively simply ignore it. That is, we all recognise that if an apparent message is contingent [it did not have to be as it is, or even to be at all], is functional within the context of communication, and is sufficiently complex that it is highly unlikely to have happened by chance, then it is much better to accept the explanation that it is what it appears to be -- a message originating in an intelligent [though perhaps not wise!] source -- than to revert to "chance" as the default assumption. Technically, we compare how close the received signal is to legitimate messages, and then decide that it is likely to be the "closest" such message. (All of this can be quantified, but this intuitive level discussion is enough for our purposes.) In short, we all intuitively and even routinely accept that: Functionally Specified, Complex Information, FSCI, is a signature of messages originating in intelligent sources. Thus, if we then try to dismiss the study of such inferences to design as "unscientific," when they may cut across our worldview preferences, we are plainly being grossly inconsistent. Further to this, the common attempt to pre-empt the issue through the attempted secularist redefinition of science as in effect "what can be explained on the premise of evolutionary materialism - i.e. primordial matter-energy joined to cosmological- + chemical- + biological macro- + sociocultural- evolution, AKA 'methodological naturalism' " [ISCID def'n: here] is itself yet another begging of the linked worldview level questions. For in fact, the issue in the communication situation once an apparent message is in hand is: inference to (a) intelligent -- as opposed to supernatural -- agency [signal] vs. (b) chance-process [noise]. Moreover, at least since Cicero, we have recognised that the presence of functionally specified complexity in such an apparent message helps us make that decision. (Cf. also Meyer's closely related discussion of the demarcation problem here.) More broadly the decision faced once we see an apparent message, is first to decide its source across a trichotomy: (1) chance; (2) natural regularity rooted in mechanical necessity (or as Monod put it in his famous 1970 book, echoing Plato, simply: "necessity"); (3) intelligent agency. These are the three commonly observed causal forces/factors in our world of experience and observation. [Cf. abstract of a recent technical, peer-reviewed, scientific discussion here. Also, cf. Plato's remark in his The Laws, Bk X, excerpted below.] Each of these forces stands at the same basic level as an explanation or cause, and so the proper question is to rule in/out relevant factors at work, not to decide before the fact that one or the other is not admissible as a "real" explanation. This often confusing issue is best initially approached/understood through a concrete example . . . A CASE STUDY ON CAUSAL FORCES/FACTORS -- A Tumbling Die: Heavy objects tend to fall under the law-like natural regularity we call gravity. If the object is a die, the face that ends up on the top from the set {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6} is for practical purposes a matter of chance. But, if the die is cast as part of a game, the results are as much a product of agency as of natural regularity and chance. Indeed, the agents in question are taking advantage of natural regularities and chance to achieve their purposes! This concrete, familiar illustration should suffice to show that the three causal factors approach is not at all arbitrary or dubious -- as some are tempted to imagine or assert. [More details . . .] Then also, in certain highly important communication situations, the next issue after detecting agency as best causal explanation, is whether the detected signal comes from (4) a trusted source, or (5) a malicious interloper, or is a matter of (6) unintentional cross-talk. (Consequently, intelligence agencies have a significant and very practical interest in the underlying scientific questions of inference to agency then identification of the agent -- a potential (and arguably, probably actual) major application of the theory of the inference to design.) Next, to identify which of the three is most important/ the best explanation in a given case, it is useful to extend the principles of statistical hypothesis testing through Fisherian elimination to create the Explanatory Filter
--> Fair comment: too often, inveterate objectors refuse to engage cogently, instead seeking to dismiss on loaded, toxic caricatures of design thought and design thinkers.kairosfocus
June 15, 2019
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F/N2: But, isn't it about implicitly assuming the designer? (And, concealing the "fact" that ID is really Creationism in disguise?) No. One of the persistent, hyperskeptical (and too often cynical or even slanderous) fallacies of inveterate objectors to design inferences is that the reasoning begs the question and/or has a hidden agenda of Biblical Creationism. This persists despite many cogent corrections over many years, too often because tainting the other side works rhetorically despite not being truthful. This last is a serious character flaw, let that suffice. On the first issue, let us note that design (as the OP notes) is about intelligently directed configuration. This obviously comes from intelligences, which as the OP summarises from recent discussion here at UD, is radically different in characteristics from what computational substrates do. The latter are simply neither rational nor responsible (morally governed), they are glorified, garbage in garbage out mechanical and/or stochastic calculating entities. That's why the issue of the possibility of relevant designers is a question of being open to real possibilities rather than indulging improper ideological lockouts. In short, one of the goals of science is credible knowledge, where in the relevant weak sense we commonly use knowledge is warranted, credibly true belief -- as opposed to utterly certainly true belief. Genuine science cannot afford to be hampered by ideological lockouts that turn it into little more than applied atheism. We know that causal factors exist, and that causes can be identified. In this context, at least since Plato it has been on record that we may cluster these as blindly mechanical and/or stochastic (aka chance), or intelligent direction. Each of these has characteristic, observable signs. And so, in a context where a designer was not directly seen in action, we may legitimately first infer on signs that something is not credibly lawlike, low contingency mechanical necessity. Second, we look at the two known sources of potentially widely divergent outcomes on closely similar initial conditions. In principle we may try to impose chance as it may access any outcome in a relevant configuration space. But that's not the only relevant factor, as it may be maximally implausible to find certain specialised outcomes as coming from chance. Whether, at one go or cumulatively. The latter is about hill climbing on islands of configuration-based function. As the OP illustrates, in many relevant config spaces, sol system or observed cosmos scope resources lead to needle in haystack challenges. Such challenges to get to shorelines of function do not credibly support the jump from chance is abstractly possible, to it is plausible. For example lucky noise does not credibly, plausibly, cogently explain coherent text bearing messages beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. This is directly relevant to cell based life given the discovery of DNA since 1953. Instead, we know that creative, rationally free intelligence can and does produce such, routinely. There are trillions of cases in point, and there are no counter-examples that do not involve design, once we go beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. Therefore, such text (and wider functionally specific complex organisation and associated information) will be a reliable, empirically observable sign of design. And of course, we here deal with language and often language applied to algorithms (which show purpose). Those are strong signs of design. So, instead of being question-begging, we are looking at alternative causal explanations of observable phenomena, given known, characteristic features. Ironically, it is those who indulge in or enable materialist imposition of ideological lockout who are begging the question. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2019
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F/N: Let's refocus a key issue, that inference to causal process of design/arson is not yet warrant to infer onward to designer/arsonist,
About seven years ago, one night, fires broke out in two of Montserrat’s court houses, and did considerable damage (including to records). After they were put out, investigators found signs of accelerants. For cause, they inferred arson. However, they were unable to infer onward to credibly suspected arsonists. Why? Want of a cluster of facts and logic, never mind that popular suspicion did attach to persons believed to benefit from loss of records. As any lawyer can tell, motive, means, opportunity backed up by evidence are the foundation stones on which a court reaches sound judgement. (Kangaroo courts do exist, but leaping to a predetermined conclusion without fair process is not sound process.) In short, the design inference is much like the progress of investigation of an event: are mechanical necessity and/or chance adequate to explain, or is intentionally, intelligently directed configuration a more credible explanation, given signs s1, s2 . . . sn?
So, as long as arsonists/designers are possible, reliable signs should be allowed to speak with their own voices. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2019
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In his book Darwin’s Black Box, Michael Behe asks,
“Might there be an as yet undiscovered natural process that would explain biochemical complexity? No one would be foolish enough to categorically deny the possibility. Nonetheless we can say that if there is such a process, no one has a clue how it would work. Further it would go against all human experience, like postulating that a natural process might explain computers… In the face of the massive evidence we do have for biochemical design, ignoring the evidence in the name of a phantom process would be to play the role of detective who ignore the elephant.” (p. 203-204)
Basically Behe is asking, if biochemical complexity (irreducible complexity) evolved by some natural process x, how did it evolve? That is a perfectly legitimate scientific question. Notice that even though in DBB Behe was criticizing Neo-Darwinism he is not ruling out a priori some other mindless natural evolutionary process, “x” Behe is simply claiming that at the present there is no known natural process that can explain how irreducibly complex mechanisms and processes originated. If he and other ID’ist are wrong then our critics need to provide the step-by-step-by-step empirical explanation of how they originated, not just speculation and wishful thinking. Unfortunately our regular interlocutors seem to only be able to provide the latter not the former. Behe made another point which is worth keeping in mind.
“In the abstract, it might be tempting to imagine that irreducible complexity simply requires multiple simultaneous mutations - that evolution might be far chancier than we thought, but still possible. Such an appeal to brute luck can never be refuted... Luck is metaphysical speculation; scientific explanations invoke causes.”
In other words, a strongly held metaphysical belief is not a scientific explanation.john_a_designer
June 13, 2019
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JAD
ID, on the other hand, is a philosophical inference from nature itself.
Yes, in the same way that all physical science is a philosophical inference from what is observed in nature.Silver Asiatic
June 13, 2019
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Rhetorical voltage down please.kairosfocus
June 13, 2019
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EMH, great points on Socrates. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2019
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Brother Ed:
I guess it is time to leave again.
Thank you. Will you be taking your socks with you?ET
June 13, 2019
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Clueless:
I have not come to this site for a while and the first thing I see when I pop in is this. I guess it is time to leave again.Ed George
June 13, 2019
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