Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP 46: A big questions challenge — confident objective knowledge vs grand delusion in a going-concern world

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In recent weeks, we have seen again and again how the acid of hyperskepticism has reduced our civilisation’s confidence in self-awareness much less understanding of the world and its roots. Even as Evolutionary Materialistic Scientism, Officialdom and their media promoters (and censors) seek to create a dominant narrative. So, how do we attack this issue?

First, let’s reduce it to a graphic:

Once that is on the table, it is clear that our diverse worldviews and the extent to which any such can claim to be well warranted knowledge are at the crux of the matter. As a key aspect, as we are ourselves embedded (“apparently,” embodied with brains, senses tied to brains and self-awareness) in the going concern world, self-referentiality is inescapably entangled in the matter. So are questions of origins and the root of reality. The hyperskepticism-induced loss of confidence is manifest in our tendency to radical relativism, subjectivism and emotivism, all of which suffer serious self-referentiality challenges and undermine claimed knowledge.

Such surfaces the grand delusion challenge long ago exemplified by Plato in his parable of the cave:

Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

Of course, we should not neglect the cynical, power-manipulation Overton Window dimension of this parable:

Yes, in a hyperskeptical-cynical world, somebody is looking to gain power and likely wealth from our loss of confidence. We must bear that in mind. Similarly, the now commonly used parable of blind men and an elephant is instructive:

Here, we can focus Jesus of Nazareth’s remark on good/bad eyes, from his Sermon on the Mount, using words that tellingly echo Plato’s parable:

Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear [spiritually perceptive], your whole body will be full of light [benefiting from God’s precepts]. 23 But if your eye is bad [spiritually blind], your whole body will be full of darkness [devoid of God’s precepts]. So if the [very] light inside you [your inner self, your heart, your conscience] is darkness, how great and terrible is that darkness! [AMP]

That’s the elephant we face!

The question is, are we willing to acknowledge that someone has a better, more valid overall picture than we do? (Our tendency to cynical hyperskepticism tends to lock us into, “no.” It also tends to make us miss that relativism or the like equally claims to be the better big-picture. Incoherent self-referentiality, again.)

So, we come to a Reidian, common sense driven conclusion in two principles:

Sawing off the branch on which we sit is absurd and ruinous

REID+, 1 — Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd, and

REID+, 2 — Principle of Common Sense Credulity: While our common sense reliance on our senses and perceptions may be mistaken in detail, the inference that our common sense view of the going-concern world we share is delusional on the whole is thus . . . saw- off– the- branch- on- which- we- all- sit . . . absurd.

In that light, we can address the chain of concerns in the first graphic above:

  1. We have reason to believe our common sense experience of the going-concern, everyday world, though limited and subject to correction in detail (and obviously a macroscopic, slow-speed, localised view), is on the whole reliable and reasonably accurate; thus, Plantinga-sense fit for purpose relative to knowledge acquisition.
  2. Knowledge in the going-concern world thus becomes possible on three levels: first, our personal world experience as self-aware creatures is just that, undeniably our experience. If one is appeared to redly and roundly, that is a datum of experience.
  3. Secondly, as we can see from 2 + 3 = 5 — i.e. || + ||| –> ||||| — or error exists or inescapable first principles [including first principles . . . and, yes, associated Ciceronian first duties . . . of right reason], there are certain truths that are self-evident, certain, plumb line that — while never nearly enough to frame and furnish a worldview — serve as key tests for soundness.
  4. Third, for practical thought, work, education, media, science, governance, community and life, a weaker, corrigible sense of knowledge is also reasonable: warranted, credibly true (so, tested and reliable) belief.
  5. This weak sense may indeed have in it various errors, but is corrigible in light of first self evident principles informed by our experiences. However, such cannot amount to a Plato’s cave grand delusion, on pain of collapsing credibility of rationality thus our own selves as rational creatures.
  6. In this light, we can dismiss general hyperskepticism as a grand delusion fallacy; and if it is selectively applied to what one is inclined to dismiss (oh, YOU have to prove beyond all arbitrary doubt that . . .) , it is little more than an excuse for question-begging hostile closed mindedness.
  7. Further to these, disciplines of thought are feasible and can build up valid bodies of credible but corrigible knowledge claims: philosophy, ethics, physics, mathematics, sciences and arts generally, including history, theology etc.

We can directly apply the above to an analysis of ourselves, i.e. we can partially and yet credibly form a self-understanding. A useful framework for this is the Smith model:

Simplifying for our purposes:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

Here, we see that a two-tier cybernetic loop controller view allows us to raise the issue that the supervisory controller may embed an oracle expressing volition and intuition (including moral intuition) etc, allowing transcending of undecidability and halting problems etc that plague Turing-based computational substrates.

Where, obviously, such an oracle is not simplified to being a higher level Turing machine; that would only export the Turing problem up one level.

When queried or informed implying a query, the oracle issues a single stage answer and is a black box relative to the Turing paradigm. Thus to some degree it embeds a knowledge and intuitions base. In addition, in supervisory state, it frames the context in which action is taken, being further informed by rational, responsible (so, moral sense, conscience-guided) freedom.

From that going concern self-model, we may proceed to address the basis for, dynamics of and origins of a world that includes such creatures. Notice, this is an onward question, for without a frame for rational, responsible, knowing, free but guided thought, decision and action, there is no basis for addressing how can we know a now passed past of origins and linked substructure on roots of reality. (The attempt to hopelessly entangle ontology with epistemology, fails.)

In that context, we can immediately see that causes create effects, which may come in degrees. How much sugar is in a glass of water affects how sweet it will taste. This has immediate applications, e.g. here is a video screenshot I recently shared with policy influencers, i/l/o issues on Ivermectin — and note, this is not to excite a side-debate. (Yes, I am aware of the report of a study on Ivermectin, but frankly fear it can be twisted into a kill-shot attempt given the toxic, ideological and interests distorted state of such research.) Note, Peru is a state with about 33 million people in 25 states, comparable to Canada at 36 millions:

It is in that context (with other similar real-world, observational study/experience driven results/evidence) that the Frontline Doctors have just challenged Officialdom on Ivermectin:

Underlying, given intent to address roots of reality, is the logic of being . . . which we can know based on analysis:

Compare, a flame:

An igniting match (a contingent being)

. . . with the fire tetrahedron, which gives causal conditionality:

Fires are contingent, possible beings, even as square circles are impossible of being:

One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time

So, now, we can contemplate another order of possible being. To see it, try to imagine a distinct world in which two-ness, distinct identity etc do not exist. Or where it begins or may cease. Immediately, such fails as a distinct world W must differ from its neighbour W’ by having some A not in W’, in effect W = {A|~A} where ~A = W’. We see that two-ness is part of the framework for any world, so once there undeniably is a world [ours] it is a necessary being, part of the fabric of any world. That applies to mathematics and its universal power, but it shows that necessary, world framework entities are real.

The root of reality, world zero, W0, in effect, embeds such beings with the additional point that through origins processes such must account causally for this world, We.

This brings to bear issues on fine tuning evidence, the complex, functionally specific, algorithm, code and language using framework of cell based life, body plan biodiversity requiring 10 – 100+ million bits of incremental information per plan, and our own morally governed, minded life.

Those questions and many more are not going to go away quietly simply because they are inconvenient to today’s establishment. END

Comments
KF That's not really freedom as integral to your view of things, that is just you saying that freedom is granted. 2+2=4 etc. that's your view, and then you grant freedom, throw people a bone, outside of your views. I can prove that it is logically valid not to believe in God. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact God would be in category 1 obviously. All in category 1 is identified with a chosen opinion, therefore it is logically valid to choose the opinion God is not real. Basically similar to stating love is not real, hate is not real, etc. which emotions are also in category 1. See, that is freedom integral to my view of things. And while the world is surpressing freedom of opinion, you still don't acknowledge the validity of the concept of a chosen personal opinion.mohammadnursyamsu
June 29, 2021
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MNY, one is free to disbelieve in God. Whether that reflects sound, well-founded thinking is another matter. Particularly, as God is a serious candidate necessary being, either he is impossible of being or is actual. Anyone finding good cause to infer that God is impossible of being is free to provide same ______ KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2021
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Kairosfocus WJM, there you go again. Sad. KF
KF sometimes ignoring " Napoleon" is the best medicine for recovery. You try to convince him with logic that he is not Napoleon but the results are opposite of what you want. It's too late for logic.Sandy
June 29, 2021
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Why would you allow disbelief in God, when the conclusion is forced by the logic of a neccessary being? 2+2=4 but freedom is inherent in rationality so 2+2= choose 5? You just say these kinds of things to appease, you do not demonstrate where freedom is an integral part of your views.mohammadnursyamsu
June 29, 2021
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MNY, freedom is inherent to rationality. Lawful government recognises that, and constitutional democracy buttressed by key cultural supports. The insinuation you just made is improper. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2021
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Kairosfocus, there is no logical progression from your view of things, to free speech. Rather the reverse. Aren't you just another tyrant? We are forced to accept God, because of the logic of a neccessary being. And all the other things you write, there is no place for freedom in it. All that 2+2=4 , it only presents the logic of forced answers. All is forced, and freedom is not an integral part of your views.mohammadnursyamsu
June 29, 2021
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WJM, there you go again. Sad. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2021
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IMO, KF, your "common sense" world only survives in your mind as such via either ignorance of the experiences of countless others, a mountain of available evidence, or by denying them as either defective or deceptive. I've personally interacted with literally hundreds of people, and have read the accounts of many other all over the world, that have the same kind of experiences as me, indicating a reality that is far, far outside of the confines of what your "common sense" dictates.William J Murray
June 29, 2021
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KF, Why is it that no matter how many times I agree with you about the existential unavoidables that logic and math represent, you keep trotting it out as if that is a point of contention?
I find it hard to believe that you seriously put that common sense world under the shadow of a plato’s cave infinite regress of delusions, but, okay make a choice as to what faith point you will take: utter collapse of rationality or responsible common sense, which can be extended into disciplines and praxis.
Rationality only "breaks down" if I contested something like logic or math, which I do not. Your idea of "delusion" and "common sense" depends on particular ontological commitments far below the existentially necessary. They represent an interpretation, or model, of some of the conditions I assume we share in our experiences. But, you and I have had a lot of experiences we do not share. We have experienced different conditions. I would have to dismiss a lifetime of experiences, and over 30 years development, experimentation, and the practical, functional success of my model to adopt the "common sense" model you refer to.
I imagine you eat breakfast of a morning, so I can guess that whatever you may speculate from your keyboard, you of necessity participate as an embodied creature in that practical reality. Which we can reasonably take as independent of our particular imaginations, surprising us all the time with its various events, entities, processes, history etc.
Have you ever imagined a physical object, and watched as it physically appeared, which everyone could see, take the object and use it? Have you ever imagined a world, and then find yourself physically in that world, and have other people report having a physical experience in that world, interacting with and verifying the physical existence of the very things and people you imagined? The answer is probably "no," so I understand your ontological distinction you hold to between "reality" and "imagination." I've visited with my "dead" wife several times. It was completely real, completely physical, just like this world. Several other people have also visited with her in the same way, and have confirmed the way she looks, dresses, acts and talks in that world. I've actually brought things back with me from that world (or other such worlds.) Do you think you can possible talk me into a "common sense" view of reality after I've been experiencing these kinds of things my whole life? I respect you and your world and your beliefs, but do not presume to think that we share a substantial world of experience. In my perspective, that which we share is trivial compared to that which we do not share.William J Murray
June 29, 2021
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WJM, there is no "presumption" that we live in the same mental world. this is again a projected strawman caricature. Let's start with a thought exercise, imagine some bright red ball A on a table in some world, W. This allows us to see distinct identity and its close corollaries, LNC and LEM. These are first, self-evident principles. This means that they are fabric to any possible world, try neighbouring wotlrd W' where it is a ball-less table, B. This then shows that just on an imaginary possible world, W, we have a universal principle that is applicable to all worlds. If you want to argue, plug W and W' into the earlier discussion of distinct identity of worlds and foundations of mathematics. W = W' + A, the ball. In short, LOI, LNC and LEM are universalisable, as are NZQRCR* etc with a large range of relationships etc. They readily cross between our different mental worlds and allow us to examine the perceived in common world we share, a world in which we can get an actual table at the furniture store and an actual bright red ball at the toy shop next door. We can also converse about such things and form a common knowledge base we call common sense reality. I find it hard to believe that you seriously put that common sense world under the shadow of a plato's cave infinite regress of delusions, but, okay make a choice as to what faith point you will take: utter collapse of rationality or responsible common sense, which can be extended into disciplines and praxis. I imagine you eat breakfast of a morning, so I can guess that whatever you may speculate from your keyboard, you of necessity participate as an embodied creature in that practical reality. Which we can reasonably take as independent of our particular imaginations, surprising us all the time with its various events, entities, processes, history etc. beyond this point, we can regard self-referentially absurd hyperskeptical speculations about that world as not serious. Insofar as errors exist, yes, that is why we took time to explore warrant in detail, which you were there twisting, turning, objecting, distracting from every step of the way. That is not responsible. Similarly, we are conscience guided and find ourselves duty bound starting with truth. Where, pointing beyond, it is clear that God is a serious candidate necessary being root of reality, unlike say a flying spaghetti monster -- necessary, eternal beings are not composite made up of spaghetti, meatballs or any other such material entity, nor are they composed by configuring and coupling prior independently existing parts, etc -- or the like ill-thought through strawman caricature. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2021
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So, I define a "world" as a set of information being processed into a particular experience. Yes, there is a necessary being for every world; the being that is doing the experiencing. Without the experiencer, that "world" does not, cannot exist. Which is precisely what the quantum physics experimental evidence indicates. The consciousness of the experiencer is what chooses from the potential and processes it into that being's experiential "world."William J Murray
June 29, 2021
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The presumption that we live in the same mental world is apparent in how people talk to each other here; as if they can read minds. But, I want to be clear what I mean here. Under IRT, we do all live in the same "universal mind." I'm not talking from that perspective; here I mean that KF, BA77 and others assume we share the same local mental space. People assign motivations, character traits, thoughts, and reasons for why someone else says what they say here. That's pure projection of their mental world onto others. KF (and others) insists that everyone lives in the same mental world that he does, whether they know it or not, or admit it or not. He and others here have no problem asserting why others behave the way they do, or say the things they say, argue the way they argue, use the words they choose to use. If they do not agree, they are considered being either defective in their thinking or being deceptive. They think it cannot possibly be anything else because of the a priori assumption that we all must share the same mental world far beyond what is existentially unavoidable. I see this physical locaation, or "world," as perfect as-is. It is a truly remarkable, wonderful place, but it just represents one particular set of experienced potential out of functionally infinite possibilities available to sentient beings. I see things in terms of being eternal, not "contingent." I see myself as being that which is completely responsible for everything I experience, and that I can navigate my eternally ongoing experience into whatever situation I desire. I see all other people as perfect beings manifesting the experiences they, on some psychological level, desire. From my perspective, this is what sentient beings do: put themselves into situations where they can have certain kinds of experiences for various reasons. I marvel at, respect and honor those experiences, which required adopting particular perspectives in order to acquire. But to say you and I share a world? For you and your perspective, I supposed we "share a world" in a significant sense; but, for me, we share a very tiny subset where our two otherwise entirely different "worlds" happen to intersect at one particular time and location.William J Murray
June 29, 2021
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WJM, the parable of the cave operates on two levels, first, totalitarian indoctrination due to domination by a corrupt, ruthless -- so, misanthropic -- elite. Second, it is an early exploration of the epistemological challenge and linked hyperskepticism that came to a head with the Enlightenment, ending in the Kantian ugly gulch between the inner phenomenal world and the outer world of appearances vs being. To deal with the first, we have to deal with the second, and the logical focal issue is self-referentiality. If we are so trapped that our senses and inner rational consciousness are in a shadow-show grand delusion [the cave is the paradigm], there is no firewall. The level 1 cave is suspect but then is escape and exposure to the parapet and fire with shadow puppets not simply another suspect show? Then, being dragged up to the outer world and starting with reflections then ultimately seeing the sun [this standing in for the Form of the Good]? The whole crashes in an infinite regress of shadow shows, ending up discrediting rationality. So, we set the whole aside as absurd, for cause. We start afresh, on the premise that what ends in self-referential absurdity, or suggests or invites it can be set aside. That brings us to Reidan common sense and thus first principles and duties of reason. KF PS: The possible worlds approach allows us to think universally once we recognise necessary beings and self-evident first truths. These allow us to communicate intra and inter personally, building up a common body of reliable knowledge, without hopeless distortion, which last is another form of grand delusion.kairosfocus
June 29, 2021
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To continue from #53, This brings us back to the parable of the cave, in a way. The prisoners have developed a worldview based on the particular conditions they find themselves in and not on principles that would be necessary in any experiential situation - not just their own. IOW, the philosopher found the existential unavoidables and recognized them as the truth about the nature of their existence regardless of whether people lived in any particular cave or not. So, as sentient beings we are the processing of information from the potential into the experiential. All possible things exist as potential. An ontology can now be seen as a model that describes a set of supposedly universal experiential limitations to this process, usually referred to as "reality." People carve out a single, tiny block of potential and insist that out of all possibilities, all people can only experience what is in that tiny section because, for whatever reason, it is all that is "actually" available to us. They do this because of a fundamental ontological perspective they usually do not recognize as such: they believe that one tiny subset of potential has somehow been "activated" or selected and the rest of potential has been cordoned off from us. IOW, they are the prisoners of the cave that believe that their cave is the only actual cave that exists out of all possible caves. No other cave can be experienced, according to them. But, what is the cave? Is it a "world?" What does a "world" mean? KF's description:
I note, a possible world is a description — conjunction of propositions — that sufficiently describes how a world such as but not necessarily our own is or could be.
Please note: he hasn't really said what a "world" is. When he uses the phrase, "such as our own," what is he talking about? The Earth? The universe? The physical universe + metaphysical/spiritual elements or locations and beings? Note also the assumption: "such as our own." Is he assuming he and I live in the same "world?" Wouldn't that depend on what one means by "world?" What a "world" is, is itself an ontological position. So, when KF talks about "all possible worlds" using a phrase "such as our own," he's apparently only talking about a certain species of "possible worlds," perhaps the kind that are "universally shared" by "all sentient beings." Has KF considered the thought that one's "world" is determined by one's conscious perspective, and that such a "world" is not a set thing for everyone? Why does KF feel confident that he and I share "the same world?" Is it because we can communicate with each other? Or that we could reasonably expect to physically meet if we decided to do so? Note the ontological commitments involved. Does being able to meet physically and talk face to face inherently mean we live in the same world? That all depends on what you mean by "world" and what you think physical experiences represent. It all depends on how you organize mental experience and think about those experiences. Mentally, for the most part, KF and I do not live in the same world. BA77 and I do not live in the same mental world. We may share one aspect of mental experiences; the set of mental experiences we call the physical, but KF seems to think that this single aspect of mental experience is the defining quality of what it means to "share" a "world." Experiencing each other in a shared physical location does not mean we live in the same world, any more than our capacity to have coffee at the local Starbucks together means we live in the same house.William J Murray
June 29, 2021
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ET, The challenge in "Science seeks truth [i/l/o empirical investigation & observations]" is of course the pessimistic induction relative to explanations/ models/ theories given the abductive form, inductive logic of inference to the best current explanation, an application of the logic of implication. (As, was recently explored.) As implication is not equivalence, empirical support cannot definitively establish truth of theories [which are grand explanations]. That is, empirical reliability and predictive power thus far cannot ground a conclusion that a theory is utterly true or has become "fact." Which, of course is often presented as if that is so, especially with the evolutionary materialistim ideology controlled models of the past of origins. Lewontin's cat out of the bag observation on a priori commitment to materialistic ideology stings because it exposes a telling flaw of scientism. That is important to note, we hope we have captured key characteristics of our going concern world through observed phenomena [which are the true facts, whatever limitations of observation may be]. We seek to understand core characteristics of the world, and to capture them in our theories. But the fate of Ptolemaic-Aristotelian thinking about physical and cosmological reality, followed by that of Newtonian Dynamics only a few centuries on, should give us pause. We walk by faith and not by sight, we are fallible, so are our theories; scientific knowledge -- at its best -- is a paradigm case of weak sense knowledge: warranted, credibly true (so, thus far reliable) belief. As the issue of ideological imposition and linked institutional captivity and policy/cultural agendas pointed to shows, however, scientific theories, paradigms and research programmes can deteriorate into little more than agenda-driven ruthlessly imposed and enforced ideology. As design thinkers know to their cost, that has happened with more of origins science than we want to think. Climate science and big politics are hopelessly entangled. Similarly, it has played out with too much of the politics of sexual form cultural marxism in recent decades, to the manifest increasing disintegration of family stability, personal identity and civilisation. Likewise, there seems to be far more of institutional arrogance, financial interests of big pharma and the like than actual following of the Science [--> EVIDENCE] on the current pandemic. Indeed, "evidence based" has been co-opted by those who are committing a clear gold standard of empirical evidence fallacy. For, huge scale randomised, placebo-controlled studies not only have serious questions on time required, limits on what can be supported and are ethically challenged in many cases, but also cannot exhaust the cumulative effect of other real-world empirical investigations including clinical observations by physicians and nurses, so-called natural experiments due to statistical patterns etc. (Cf an example in the OP.) So, Science seeks truth is qualified and not unique to science. Especially, if we recall the first duties of reason; despite antics with semantics and rhetorical games here at UD in recent weeks, duty to and appeals to the legitimate authority of truth, right reason, warrant [and wider prudence] are inescapably pervasive. We are conscience-guided, error-prone, morally struggling, too often ill willed creatures. So, let us take a more balanced, more nuanced understanding of science. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2021
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In the "perfect" world, EDTA @ 45 is correct. Science and scientists should exist to uncover the truth. The truth being the reality of whatever is being investigated. That is why we investigate, right? To try to figure out what actually happened? “A healthy science is a science that seeks the truth.” Paul Nelson, Ph. D., philosophy of biology. Linus Pauling, winner of 2 Nobel prizes wrote, “Science is the search for the truth.” “But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding.” Albert Einstein But we do not live in that world.ET
June 28, 2021
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WJM, no (see the import of "existential unavoidables that apply to all possible sentient experiences" which is NOT the same as entities present in all possible worlds), but it is clear this is simply another needlessly distractive tangent. We can take it therefore that the key points in the OP stand on merits. KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2021
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KF, As far as I can tell, you're just restating what I've already pointed out as existential unavoidables earlier in this thread.William J Murray
June 28, 2021
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WJM, necessary being is not a matter subject to our whims or to arbitrary hyperskeptical objection, it is a settled matter, beings that must be present in any possible world. This is best understood on their being framework to such worlds existing. An example is of course duality, as I have drawn out any number of times. Try to imagine a distinct possible world in which two-ness does not exist, or begins, or ceases. That is impossible as just to have a distinct world, it must have distinct identity which implies duality as has been drawn out. By direct contrast, impossible beings such as square circles cannot be in any possible world. Contingent beings are in some worlds but not all, which points to the issue of causal conditions. KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2021
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KF said:
Necessary beings, being framework to the existence of any possible world, are present in any such world.
That depends on what you mean by a "necessary being." If you're talking about existential unavoidables that apply to all possible sentient experiences, I'll go along with that.William J Murray
June 28, 2021
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WJM, potentiality and actuality are quite different. Any building may burn down, any vehicle can crash, any vessel may sink, we may become murder victims. However, in each case we take many due precautions to see that such states of affairs do not become actual. This of course points to contingent being and causal conditions. Necessary beings, being framework to the existence of any possible world, are present in any such world. KF PS: I note, a possible world is a description -- conjunction of propositions -- that sufficiently describes how a world such as but not necessarily our own is or could be.kairosfocus
June 28, 2021
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This brings us to what may have been before considered a trivially true tautology: all possible things exist as potential. The quality of what most ontologies refer to as "real" can be more easily understood now. Most ontologies essentially represent a framework of limitations to what potential can be actuated into experience category #2. It's really that simple when you boil it down. Before we start fencing off possibilities with ontological barbed wire, we might ask the question: is this a good idea? What are we actually doing when we conceptually fence off possibilities? Is it necessary? If so, to what degree? What are the ramifications? Etc.William J Murray
June 28, 2021
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When taken back to pre-ontological formula, what is there to consider when establishing an ontology, or "worldview" about "what reality is?" The only thing we have available to consider in developing an ontology (from formula) is mental experience. The first order of business would be to examine the kinds of mental experience we have and examine them. Unfortunately, the only words we have to label and talk about these different kinds of mental experience are through words that are either rooted in or carry with them ontological assumptions. Keeping that in mind: 1. Existential unavoidables, self-evident truths, necessary truths (logic, math, self/other, etc.) 2. The highly consistent, persistent, measurable, predictable, operable, apparently consensual set of experiences we currently call "the physical world," including our physical body 3. Senses 4. Memory 5. Emotion (including conscience, empathy, sense of duty, desire, concern for others, love, etc.) 6. Imagination 7. Intention/preference (free will) 8. Attention 9. Dreams 10. Sense of continuity/sequentiality (time) I may be missing something, but this list will do for the time being. Most ontologies (that I'm aware of of, anyway) begin by simply accepting the same basic way these categories of mental experience are arranged in relationship to each other and what they each, generally, mean. These ontologies focus on #1 and #2 as "objectively real." IOW, the are said to have an existence independent of our experience of them. This is the primordial or first ontological commitment that is apparently not self-evident, necessary, or unavoidable; that something exists independent of experience of that thing. In the usual way people think about something independently existing external of experience, there is simply no way to demonstrate or prove that absent an a priori ontological construct. However, there is, in fact, a manner in which all things that we can possibly experience must exist independent of our experience of it: it must exist as a potential experience. "Potential" is a form of information. In fact, everything in the list above are forms or kinds of information. Experience = information. From a pre-ontological perspective, all experiences are forms of information, and information not in our experience necessarily exists independent of our experience as potential. At least, that's all that can be said about it so far. Here we have established what a sentient being must be: a sentient being is the processing of potential into active experience.William J Murray
June 28, 2021
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WJM, your hyperskeptical response to the self-evident has undermined confidence in what you have to say. You have also tried to redefine self-evidence to fit a rhetorical pattern, so there is no confidence that you are using language reasonably rather than fallaciously. You have advocated views that either express or invite hyperskepticism, and such leads to an infinite regress of acid doubts and delusions. That is some of the context in which the OP highlights that going concern world, common sense and tested first principles of reasoning -- recall, entanglement with first duties starting with to truth -- allow us to frame a responsible baseline knowledge base which then allows onward investigation of worldviews issues. KF PS: One of the baseline results is that there is no good reason to entertain Plato's Cave world notions, which undermine credibility of knowledge, perception, rationality, duty, community, etc. This then extends to the level two where one plays escaped prisoner and perceives the alleged apparatus of grand delusion, for level three lurks, is level two just another delusion, thence endless chain. Instead, Reidan common sense recognising local error but rejecting grand delusion theses, makes good sense.kairosfocus
June 28, 2021
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ET, sadly, you have a point. Once Science by default became repository of knowledge and a gateway to power up to and including chem weapons, bio weapons and nukes, it became a target for power holders, power seekers and more. Accordingly, science, science education, officialdom and the media are in a tangled, too often corrupt relationship that leads to the sort of situation we are seeing where empirically well supported, low cost treatments for a pandemic likely coming out of institutional undermining of restrictions on dangerous research are systematically undermined. Where, those connected to the undermining funded research that was bound to be taken as bioweapons research by other parties hostile to liberty. Coming out of this, respect for key institutions is going to be drastically undermined. For cause. As for trust, in self-defence, a lot of people will now presume as default that they are being lied to. Which, is fatal. KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2021
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Do you see how broken our intellectual culture is, how much that we should prize we have heedlessly thrown into a vat of corrosive hyperskeptical doubt, not realising that such would also dissolve its own container, i.e. the radical doubter is trapped in [implicit] self-reference?kairosfocus
June 28, 2021
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WJM 1. I (the sentient being) exist as an identifiable “I.” 2. Therefore, a fundamental experience of self and other. I would say 1) Existence exists It seems to me that “I”, “self” or “others” are based on certain preusuppositions Vividvividbleau
June 27, 2021
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ET: Good point.EDTA
June 27, 2021
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EDTA:
But scientists are ostensibly out to find truth...
What planet are you living on?ET
June 27, 2021
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ET @ 43, Yes, in that case others do benefit. But scientists are ostensibly out to find truth, and happen to enjoy what they do (when not writing grant proposals I suppose). If they stated that their central goal was to find enjoyment, then I'd be skeptical that they are finding anything beyond that.EDTA
June 27, 2021
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