Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP 46: A big questions challenge — confident objective knowledge vs grand delusion in a going-concern world

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In recent weeks, we have seen again and again how the acid of hyperskepticism has reduced our civilisation’s confidence in self-awareness much less understanding of the world and its roots. Even as Evolutionary Materialistic Scientism, Officialdom and their media promoters (and censors) seek to create a dominant narrative. So, how do we attack this issue?

First, let’s reduce it to a graphic:

Once that is on the table, it is clear that our diverse worldviews and the extent to which any such can claim to be well warranted knowledge are at the crux of the matter. As a key aspect, as we are ourselves embedded (“apparently,” embodied with brains, senses tied to brains and self-awareness) in the going concern world, self-referentiality is inescapably entangled in the matter. So are questions of origins and the root of reality. The hyperskepticism-induced loss of confidence is manifest in our tendency to radical relativism, subjectivism and emotivism, all of which suffer serious self-referentiality challenges and undermine claimed knowledge.

Such surfaces the grand delusion challenge long ago exemplified by Plato in his parable of the cave:

Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

Of course, we should not neglect the cynical, power-manipulation Overton Window dimension of this parable:

Yes, in a hyperskeptical-cynical world, somebody is looking to gain power and likely wealth from our loss of confidence. We must bear that in mind. Similarly, the now commonly used parable of blind men and an elephant is instructive:

Here, we can focus Jesus of Nazareth’s remark on good/bad eyes, from his Sermon on the Mount, using words that tellingly echo Plato’s parable:

Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear [spiritually perceptive], your whole body will be full of light [benefiting from God’s precepts]. 23 But if your eye is bad [spiritually blind], your whole body will be full of darkness [devoid of God’s precepts]. So if the [very] light inside you [your inner self, your heart, your conscience] is darkness, how great and terrible is that darkness! [AMP]

That’s the elephant we face!

The question is, are we willing to acknowledge that someone has a better, more valid overall picture than we do? (Our tendency to cynical hyperskepticism tends to lock us into, “no.” It also tends to make us miss that relativism or the like equally claims to be the better big-picture. Incoherent self-referentiality, again.)

So, we come to a Reidian, common sense driven conclusion in two principles:

Sawing off the branch on which we sit is absurd and ruinous

REID+, 1 — Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd, and

REID+, 2 — Principle of Common Sense Credulity: While our common sense reliance on our senses and perceptions may be mistaken in detail, the inference that our common sense view of the going-concern world we share is delusional on the whole is thus . . . saw- off– the- branch- on- which- we- all- sit . . . absurd.

In that light, we can address the chain of concerns in the first graphic above:

  1. We have reason to believe our common sense experience of the going-concern, everyday world, though limited and subject to correction in detail (and obviously a macroscopic, slow-speed, localised view), is on the whole reliable and reasonably accurate; thus, Plantinga-sense fit for purpose relative to knowledge acquisition.
  2. Knowledge in the going-concern world thus becomes possible on three levels: first, our personal world experience as self-aware creatures is just that, undeniably our experience. If one is appeared to redly and roundly, that is a datum of experience.
  3. Secondly, as we can see from 2 + 3 = 5 — i.e. || + ||| –> ||||| — or error exists or inescapable first principles [including first principles . . . and, yes, associated Ciceronian first duties . . . of right reason], there are certain truths that are self-evident, certain, plumb line that — while never nearly enough to frame and furnish a worldview — serve as key tests for soundness.
  4. Third, for practical thought, work, education, media, science, governance, community and life, a weaker, corrigible sense of knowledge is also reasonable: warranted, credibly true (so, tested and reliable) belief.
  5. This weak sense may indeed have in it various errors, but is corrigible in light of first self evident principles informed by our experiences. However, such cannot amount to a Plato’s cave grand delusion, on pain of collapsing credibility of rationality thus our own selves as rational creatures.
  6. In this light, we can dismiss general hyperskepticism as a grand delusion fallacy; and if it is selectively applied to what one is inclined to dismiss (oh, YOU have to prove beyond all arbitrary doubt that . . .) , it is little more than an excuse for question-begging hostile closed mindedness.
  7. Further to these, disciplines of thought are feasible and can build up valid bodies of credible but corrigible knowledge claims: philosophy, ethics, physics, mathematics, sciences and arts generally, including history, theology etc.

We can directly apply the above to an analysis of ourselves, i.e. we can partially and yet credibly form a self-understanding. A useful framework for this is the Smith model:

Simplifying for our purposes:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

Here, we see that a two-tier cybernetic loop controller view allows us to raise the issue that the supervisory controller may embed an oracle expressing volition and intuition (including moral intuition) etc, allowing transcending of undecidability and halting problems etc that plague Turing-based computational substrates.

Where, obviously, such an oracle is not simplified to being a higher level Turing machine; that would only export the Turing problem up one level.

When queried or informed implying a query, the oracle issues a single stage answer and is a black box relative to the Turing paradigm. Thus to some degree it embeds a knowledge and intuitions base. In addition, in supervisory state, it frames the context in which action is taken, being further informed by rational, responsible (so, moral sense, conscience-guided) freedom.

From that going concern self-model, we may proceed to address the basis for, dynamics of and origins of a world that includes such creatures. Notice, this is an onward question, for without a frame for rational, responsible, knowing, free but guided thought, decision and action, there is no basis for addressing how can we know a now passed past of origins and linked substructure on roots of reality. (The attempt to hopelessly entangle ontology with epistemology, fails.)

In that context, we can immediately see that causes create effects, which may come in degrees. How much sugar is in a glass of water affects how sweet it will taste. This has immediate applications, e.g. here is a video screenshot I recently shared with policy influencers, i/l/o issues on Ivermectin — and note, this is not to excite a side-debate. (Yes, I am aware of the report of a study on Ivermectin, but frankly fear it can be twisted into a kill-shot attempt given the toxic, ideological and interests distorted state of such research.) Note, Peru is a state with about 33 million people in 25 states, comparable to Canada at 36 millions:

It is in that context (with other similar real-world, observational study/experience driven results/evidence) that the Frontline Doctors have just challenged Officialdom on Ivermectin:

Underlying, given intent to address roots of reality, is the logic of being . . . which we can know based on analysis:

Compare, a flame:

An igniting match (a contingent being)

. . . with the fire tetrahedron, which gives causal conditionality:

Fires are contingent, possible beings, even as square circles are impossible of being:

One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time

So, now, we can contemplate another order of possible being. To see it, try to imagine a distinct world in which two-ness, distinct identity etc do not exist. Or where it begins or may cease. Immediately, such fails as a distinct world W must differ from its neighbour W’ by having some A not in W’, in effect W = {A|~A} where ~A = W’. We see that two-ness is part of the framework for any world, so once there undeniably is a world [ours] it is a necessary being, part of the fabric of any world. That applies to mathematics and its universal power, but it shows that necessary, world framework entities are real.

The root of reality, world zero, W0, in effect, embeds such beings with the additional point that through origins processes such must account causally for this world, We.

This brings to bear issues on fine tuning evidence, the complex, functionally specific, algorithm, code and language using framework of cell based life, body plan biodiversity requiring 10 – 100+ million bits of incremental information per plan, and our own morally governed, minded life.

Those questions and many more are not going to go away quietly simply because they are inconvenient to today’s establishment. END

Comments
From our perspective, a man is in a psychiatric facility, bound in a straightjacket, sitting in a padded, locked room, barking like a dog.
How in the world you manage to post comments here if you are in straitjacket? Ingenuity of humans is breathtaking. :)))
let’s take this back to pre-ontological formula and ask the question: how is his mental experience fundamentally any different than ours? We don’t see his “world;” he doesn’t see ours.
Yep...but your world is somehow more true otherwise you wouldn't try to advertise it here. I'm impressed by your sense of duty to truth. ;) Also you have a great sense of love for all humanity because you shared the mistery of life you discovered because you are a special type of person that not often walk on this Earth. I would put among Jesus and Buddha.Sandy
June 27, 2021
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That doesn't follow. Engineers love experimental enjoyment. Scientists too. Yet others benefit from it. Their experimental enjoyment rewards us.ET
June 27, 2021
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If WJM's motivations for making his arguments are to gain experiential enjoyment, then the arguments have no other merit. He has his stated reward.EDTA
June 27, 2021
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WJM, we can see it. KFkairosfocus
June 27, 2021
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KF @39: Except what I'm arguing doesn't represent an "infinite regress of doubt." Doubt ends when you reach the self-evident, necessary and inescapable. It is only by going back to those truths that one can begin to rationally examine and compare additional ontological propositions. You don't get "delusion" and "hyperskepticism" and "warrant," etc., for free just because of what you think will happen or is happening in the world.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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WJM, if you refuse to acknowledge Plato's -- a clue -- parable of the cave in Bk VII of The Republic -- another clue -- as a paradigm of grand delusion, then no one can help you. We can use you as a poster child of the breakdown in our civilisation due to severe miseducation and the privileging of hyperskepticism, but that is a sad place to have to go. We want the old WJM back. KF PS, through the infinite regress of doubts invited by the self-referential quality of the cave parable, merits went out the window for your arguments at outset. I don't think you would deliberately reduce yourself to absurdity for amusement, but that is what you are doing.kairosfocus
June 27, 2021
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When you say the problem is scientism, then the solution must be promotion of subjectivity. Because scientism is the assertion of objectivity, over all issues. 1. The root of the problem: Through psychological pressure, and temptation, people mistakenly conceive of making a choice in terms of figuring out the best option. They conflate the good advice to think about what is best before making a choice, with the definition of making a choice. Making a choice then becomes to be construed as like a chesscomputer calculating an optimal move, in a forced way. The link to the subjective emotions and personal character, the agency of the choice, is lost. People become debased from their emotions and personal character. That is the root of the problem. 2. The solution to the problem: To teach creationism in school and university. As creationism is just free will writ large, written over reality in it's entirety, it explains what it means to make a choice. The creationist conceptual scheme of reality. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Choice is how a creation originates. To make a choice means to make one of alternative futures the present, or can be defined as making a possible future the present, or not the present. Choices are essentially spontaneous. What is in category 1 is identified with a chosen opinion. What is in category 2 is identified with a fact forced by the evidence of it, meaning that a fact is a 1 to 1 corresponding model of a creation, in the mind. ============ See, my analysis of the problem, and the solution to it, makes simple logical sense. Upon learning creationism, people would get back in touch with their emotions, start to pay dedicated attention to subjective issues, as in a bona fide religion, and would then proceed to make better personal judgements. Problem solved.mohammadnursyamsu
June 27, 2021
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Once again, my arguments (anyone’s, for that matter) stand on their own merits
Your arguments are mostly specious. My guess is that you know it and are just playing games. Nobody could be this dumb to actually believe it.jerry
June 27, 2021
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EDTA, Once again, my arguments (anyone's, for that matter) stand on their own merits. My motivations for making the arguments are irrelevant.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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WJM (for the sole purpose of his own personal experiential enjoyment) said, "...how is his mental experience fundamentally any different than ours? We don’t see his “world;” he doesn’t see ours." But WJM did have to put "world" in quotes, while ours is not in quotes. The patient does not see any of our world, but we do see vestiges and fringes of his. We provide the patient with food and water; he does not provide those things for us. We seem to be in the more privileged position, in relative terms. In any case, WJM conveniently sawed off the limb he was sitting on when he observed a few weeks ago that,
William J Murray May 20, 2021 at 5:04 am Here is my argument: 1. All free will choices and decisions are made out of personal preference, direct or abstract (self-evidently true). [This would include all philosophizing statements one makes.] 2. All preferential choices are about managing, increasing or protecting enjoyments, direct or abstract. 3. What any individual enjoys is necessarily rooted in personal preference, direct or abstract. ... This is the reason I decided to build my entire worldview around enjoyment.
Therefore, he has revealed to us that anything he says is only stated for his personal enjoyment, either direct or abstract. Such statements of any type have lost any value they might have otherwise had as truth claims. This is similar in spirit to noticing that if we evolved for fitness, then our minds are not necessarily adapted for truth, and therefore, we cannot be sure of anything. Nice going, WJM!EDTA
June 27, 2021
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Isn’t thinking that you can read someone else’s mind usually a sign of delusion in your reality?
Not when it’s so repetitive and so focused and so specious. Maybe once or twice, but after awhile speculation turns into high probability. So it’s not mind reading, but an assessment based on lots of real world experiences.jerry
June 27, 2021
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Jerry @31, Isn't thinking that you can read someone else's mind usually a sign of delusion in your reality? Just sayin'.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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This is, ultimately, I believe, the case Plato was making with the allegory of the cave: you can't make any statements about "reality" from particular experiential conditions, represented as the prisoners in the cave. The prisoner who breaks free from the cave is the philosopher who escapes the chains of deriving "truths" from particular experiential conditions and, in thought, leaves that "cave" (or any such cave,) and finds the "sunlight" of necessary, self-evident, inescapable truths that would apply to any possible person in any possible cave. Or, as I call it, taking it back to pre-ontological formula.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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Kf, a vocabulary lesson.             Factitious Everything Murray says is factitious. Not fictitious but factitious. And it is done on purpose not because he believes any of it, but to provoke you and you alone.jerry
June 27, 2021
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Let's examine the concept of "delusion" with an extreme hypothetical case. From our perspective, a man is in a psychiatric facility, bound in a straightjacket, sitting in a padded, locked room, barking like a dog. In his mind, he is living a wonderful life in a completely physical world, populated by people that he interacts with, loves, and enjoys immensely. He is completely unaware of us and the situation we observe him in. We might call this a clear, extreme case of an obviously "delusional" state. But, let's take this back to pre-ontological formula and ask the question: how is his mental experience fundamentally any different than ours? We don't see his "world;" he doesn't see ours. Both are fully physical, sensory experiences. Both are internally consistent. Other people that are in agreement with the experiencers are present in both experiential perspectives. Absent a priori ontological commitments, one cannot classify his experience a "delusion" and ours "of reality." We cannot even say that he is not experiencing a real world, or that the people who populate that world are not real people, absent an ontological, definitional, categorization of "real" vs "not real" mental experience. Both are entirely mental experiences.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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KF said or quoted:
Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd ,,,
"Grand delusion" is a meaningless term absent an ontological model that categorizes some aspect f experiences as delusion. However, I don't expect you to be able to understand that; it is apparently a cognitive blind spot due to your a priori ontological commitments (which you do not recognize as such.)William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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ET @25 said:
At least someone understands what you are saying, William. I appreciate your input. I appreciate all input for the “experimental enjoyment”. But just because of EE doesn’t mean we ain’t learning.
I appreciate it, and I agree with you completely.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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The arguments I write here stand or fall on their own merits. They are either logically sound or they are not.
The echo of the fountain: or they are not, or they are not, or they are not.Sandy
June 27, 2021
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WJM, nope, epistemology is a first level, going concern issue for a creature prone to error and were that not the case we could not have rational corrections to worldviews. Enough has been given to substantiate the point in the OP. KF PS: For convenience:
The question is, are we willing to acknowledge that someone has a better, more valid overall picture than we do? (Our tendency to cynical hyperskepticism tends to lock us into, “no.” It also tends to make us miss that relativism or the like equally claims to be the better big-picture. Incoherent self-referentiality, again.) So, we come to a Reidian, common sense driven conclusion in two principles: REID+, 1 — Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd, and REID+, 2 — Principle of Common Sense Credulity: While our common sense reliance on our senses and perceptions may be mistaken in detail, the inference that our common sense view of the going-concern world we share is delusional on the whole is thus absurd. In that light, we can address the chain of concerns in the first graphic above: 1 We have reason to believe our common sense experience of the going-concern, everyday world, though limited and subject to correction in detail (and obviously a macroscopic, slow-speed, localised view), is on the whole reliable and reasonably accurate; thus, Plantinga-sense fit for purpose relative to knowledge acquisition. 2 Knowledge in the going-concern world thus becomes possible on three levels: first, our personal world experience as self-aware creatures is just that, undeniably our experience. If one is appeared to redly and roundly, that is a datum of experience. 3 Secondly, as we can see from 2 + 3 = 5 — i.e. || + ||| –> ||||| — or error exists or inescapable first principles [including first principles . . . and, yes, associated Ciceronian first duties . . . of right reason], there are certain truths that are self-evident, certain, plumb line that — while never nearly enough to frame and furnish a worldview — serve as key tests for soundness. 4 Third, for practical thought, work, education, media, science, governance, community and life, a weaker, corrigible sense of knowledge is also reasonable: warranted, credibly true (so, tested and reliable) belief. 5 This weak sense may indeed have in it various errors, but is corrigible in light of first self evident principles informed by our experiences. However, such cannot amount to a Plato’s cave grand delusion, on pain of collapsing credibility of rationality thus our own selves as rational creatures. 6 In this light, we can dismiss general hyperskepticism as a grand delusion fallacy; and if it is selectively applied to what one is inclined to dismiss (oh, YOU have to prove beyond all arbitrary doubt that . . .) , it is little more than an excuse for question-begging hostile closed mindedness. 7 Further to these, disciplines of thought are feasible and can build up valid bodies of credible but corrigible knowledge claims: philosophy, ethics, physics, mathematics, sciences and arts generally, including history, theology etc.
kairosfocus
June 27, 2021
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At least someone understands what you are saying, William. I appreciate your input. I appreciate all input for the "experimental enjoyment". But just because of EE doesn't mean we ain't learning.ET
June 27, 2021
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ET @15 said:
Isn’t it all “experimental enjoyment”?
Exactly.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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EDTA @14 said:
All these words from WJM, after he admitted that the only reason he or any of us does/says anything is because it provide experiential enjoyment–thereby undercutting everything he has said since that time. KF, I’d say you can ignore his words.
The arguments I write here stand or fall on their own merits. They are either logically sound or they are not. I fail to see how my motivation for making the arguments makes any difference.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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Some might argue that the purpose of evaluating worldviews is to find a worldview that best approximates the "truth" about our existential situation. One might even argue that is exactly what I've just attempted to do; that since we are inescapably bound to pursue enjoyment, then the true measure of comparing worldviews lies in the enjoyment it provides the person that holds it. Fair enough, but let's talk about that. When KF's argument goes beyond self-evident and necessary truths (like his use of "delusion" and "common sense",) which I have defined as being such in every possible sentient experience, he is making an argument for an ontology from that ontology. His "pursuit of truth" is in terms of an a priori concept of an "objective reality" external of mind that binds everyone in every significant way far beyond those existential inescapables. Thus, he is ultimately making a case for "what is true" given his particular, presupposed ontological commitments. My case for "what is true" is directly reducible to the inescapable, self-evident, and necessary truths of all possible sentient experience. So far, it requires no unnecessary ontological commitments, at least that I can see.William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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Jerry, it is self-evident that you are able to supervise your body, operate vehicles etc and engage an evident external world, up to when you are appeared to Walmart-ly
My comment was written as a joke to mock the return of nonsense. His only purpose is to provoke you and you fall for it every time.jerry
June 27, 2021
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In another thread I listed some of the necessary and/or self-evident truths that can be stated about any sentient being in any kind of situation. These are statements that can be made, in general about our existential reality prior to worldview commitments. 1. I (the sentient being) exist as an identifiable "I." 2. Therefore, a fundamental experience of self and other. 3. Principles of logic. 4. Free will 5. Coherent self and environment. 6. All experience is subjective. 7. All experience occurs in mind. The beginning of a worldview is when various experiences are identified, grouped up, categorized and put into a model that describes their relationship with other experiences. IOW, when we talk about logic, dreams, memories, the "objective world," imagination, emotions, delusion, etc., we are necessarily already speaking from a basic ontological perspective or else those terms would have no meaning. We might more accurately describe "worldview building" as the process of classifying experience into separate categories due to qualitative differences in those experiences, and developing a model of the relationship of those experiences to each other. The "world model" we build is actually an experiential model within which, or by which, we develop our capacity to influence our experiences according to our free will intention (preferentially, in terms of direct and/or abstract enjoyment.) We can easily see here that many of the terms KF uses are necessarily dependent on ontology. Again, to properly compare worldviews, one cannot use a presupposed ontology as their judging guide. One must take any ontology to be examined "back to formula," so to speak, and examine it through the lens of self-evident and necessary truths that apply to all possible sentient experience. I'm going to posit the following when it comes to comparing worldviews: making an argument for a worldview that involves categorizing any experience as being of something "not real" can only be an indication of an a priori ontological bias. Categorizing any experience as of something "objective" is also from an ontological bias, since there is no means by which we can have an "objective" experience. All experience is subjective. One must make their comparative arguments without importing ontological biases and assumptions. So the first thing to keep in mind: you don't get to pre-sort experience into "real" and "not real" categories to make any worldview comparisons, or to criticize any particular worldview. Here is a fundamental question: what is the purpose for developing a worldview model? What is the individual trying to achieve? When we take this question "back to formula," the answer is clear: it is always about managing or increasing enjoyment of experience, in direct and/or abstract terms. When we consider this, does it even make sense to try to compare worldview models between individuals? What is the rational analysis about in the first place? What is the comparison being made in terms of? If the necessary, ultimate purpose of any worldview held by any individual is "maximizing enjoyment potential," isn't the essential, unavoidable measure of a "good" worldview ultimately determined by how enjoyable it is? The enjoyment it provides the person that holds it?William J Murray
June 27, 2021
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WJM, 8 supra, It is time for a point by point corrective, to remind of the true balance on merits: >>One of the points (from the allegory of the Cave and prior arguments) KF attempts to make is that “hyperskeptical” doubt about what our senses “tell” us necessarily leads to the potential for “grand delusion,” self-referential absurdity.>> 1: I took time long since to show the true corrosiveness of Plato's cave and other similar arguments to grand delusion implying that the general common sense picture of our common world is grossly inaccurate and/or highly suspect. 2: Let me clip from 12 above [to Jerry], to outline again the basic problem with rejecting Reidan, common sense recognition that errors do exist but do not and cannot coherently be held to extend to the general ability to use our senses and common sense to describe/recognise states of affairs in our day-to-day life, from waking to returning to sleep:
Those who wish to propose schemes where the apparent macro world is at best dubious at worst an outright delusion self-referentially defeat themselves even as Plato’s Cave does. If level one shadow shows are a delusion, so too one can suggest is the story of being loosed, made to look at the parapet, flames, driven to the outside world etc. And so would the level three and an infinite regress of suggested delusions looms. Grand delusion schemes are absurd, self defeating.
3: See, the self-referential, self-defeating infinite regress of doubts that stems from hyperskepticism? 4: But what about flat earthism? It is a common experience that we live in a locally flat space, but that is consistent with the nature of a tangent. Long since, it was realised that ships go hull down when they cross the horizon, and Aristotle recognised that the shadow cast on the moon during a lunar eclipse is always circular, so this points to a spherical earth. By what c 300 BC Eratosthenes had a good calculation of circumference. And more. 5: Medieval textbooks taught sphericity, envisioning brown cloak and blue cloak walking in opposite directions and meeting at the antipodes face to face. The quarrel with Columbus was that his value for distance to China to the W was far too small, and the critics were right, by the span of the Pacific. The flat earth myth is a myth, and this is a case of how a local perception is corrigible. >> KF is making a categorical error here.>> 6: Do I need to explicitly point out the implicit appeal to duties to truth, right reason, warrant and broader prudence etc in this? I fear so. >>It’s not what our sensory experience is telling us that is being doubted, it is the model that describes what sensory experience represents or means that is being critically examined.>> 7: Nope, it is the veridicality of the testimony of our senses and experiences that we are embodied, biological minded self-aware creatures sharing a common world that is being doubted. 8: Not, fancier issues of q-mech underpinnings or how gravity arises from warping the spacetime fabric, or the like, our basic existence as embodied creatures in a physical space is being subtly placed under suspicion of being a Plato's cave shadow show. 9: Whether by dint of the Kantian ugly gulch between appearance and being in itself, or the cruder dint of manipulative oppression of prisoners in a cave, makes but little difference to this imposition of privileged skepticism that haunts our civilisation's history. >>Until one has a worldview,>> 10: Nope, one is first a child then a growing experienced person in a going concern world. We are not addressing roots of reality or origins here, we are addressing basic validity of our senses and ability to make our way across to the neighbourhood shop to get bread. Bread, being a means of physical sustenance for embodied, biological creatures. >> the terms “hyperskeptical” and “delusion” have no value.>> 11: Plato's cave answers that, showing how long since intellectual leaders have raised exaggerated corrosive ever-spreading doubts, even the infamous six blind men of Hindustan is taught in elementary school. The picture of blind men groping and getting confused partial pictures is plain, as is that of prisoners subjected to systematic indoctrination by their oppressors. 12: Yes, that raises onward questions on roots and origins thus overall nature of the world, but it begins by challenging the GENERAL capability of common sense in a going concern world to arrive at substantial basic truths such as our embodied nature. >> To be hyperskeptical of a worldview claim,>> 13: Error carried forward. The issue being put forward is exaggerated doubt on the veridicality of basic common sense experiential knowledge, the common sense facts of creatures needing to breathe air, drink water, eat bread, reproduce, learn ABC's and 123's etc. 14: If our senses and common sense cannot be trusted enough to recognise such facts of life accurately, then that becomes self-referential, infinitely regressive, self-defeating as the basic perceptions, concepts, claims and meaning of the objector are also in doubt. >> one must first have a worldview claim to be skeptical of;>> 15: Being embodied etc? Really? >> to think a person is being hyperskeptical of your worldview claim,>> 16: That there are three local bakeries that I normally buy breadstuff from, at a certain rate per week is an issue of going concern common sense factual reality. Likewise, that there is a striking cultural/stylistic difference between torpedo breads here and the loaf based hard dough bread I ate while growing up is a fact of memory that I cannot systematically doubt and dismiss merely because memory can err in detail. Same for the mango varieties here vs those I grew up with save for the common St Julian. There are rumours about Bombays, but I have never been able to personally verify. Testimony by a prominent personality or two leads me to believe there are a few such trees but they must be in odd corners, hard to find. 17: It is only because of a strained worldview commitment that tries to undermine that sort of basic reality, that such has been subjected to undue, exaggerated, corrosive doubt and/or dismissal. >> you must first be making one. You can’t do that without a worldview to make claims about.>> 18: I am instead pointing out that there is a bedrock of experience and fact that is rooted in our life in a going concern world which is pre-theoretical and not to be arbitrarily doubted; especially when such hyperskepticism corrodes credibility of rationality and becomes self-referentially absurd. >>So, KF smuggles both concepts>> 19: Loaded accusatory language that tries to set up moral superiority without sound basis given what has again been pointed out regarding common sense going concern world reality and states of affairs. 20: Such language of course is yet another case of Ciceronian first duties being implicitly appealed to. >> into his “assessment of comparative worldviews” argument>> 21: Attempted dismissal of a key philosophical method, comparative difficulties of worldview alternatives i/l/o factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power. Nope, if you reject such, you need to put up a substantial alternative to assess worldview choices and show why that is a better approach. >> where they do not belong. You cannot “compare worldviews” using delusion and hyperskepticism>> 22: Again, error carried forward. We are not looking at grand structures of worldviews but at how an error prone creature can achieve credible knowledge in a going concern world. Starting with being a self-aware, conscience guided, intelligent, embodied creature who can learn, know and live in a world where one can go to the bread shop to find bread to eat. Where the fact of eating is itself loaded with import for said embodiment. >> when both of those concepts require a pre-existing worldview,>> 23: We are dealing with common sense day to day reality, what proper worldviews analysis must start from. That has no pre existing grand commitments in it that can be swept away by suggesting oh that's just your first plausibles that are optional assumptions speaking. No, Jim's or Marie's or Randolph's bread and the differences are significant. So is my memory that on a Friday when I go converse with Jim, I am likely to help him by catching the machine rolled loaves and stacking them, then loading the carriage for moving the loaves to the stack of gas-fired ovens. And Ms Foxy is likely to come by looking at us with meaningful eyes and wagging her tail, if she isn't too busy up the hill with her daughter from her latest batch of pups over by a certain Elder. The same who sends me blessing of the day WA messages. 24: Those have little to do with grand worldview presuppositions [save that you will never convince me that dogs are unintelligent, I suppose], they are facts that raise matters of factual adequacy >> or else they don’t even make sense. >> 25: You wish . . . >>They would have no context by which to call anything “delusional” or “hyperskepticism.”>> 26: Common sense, going concern world experiential states of affairs that the attempt to directly sweep away or bring under a shadow of corrosive doubt fails by becoming self-referentially absurd . . . KFkairosfocus
June 27, 2021
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We all want to know what is true and we all hope for personal survival and that we are part of some greater scheme of things that is created for our personal benefit. The danger of that is that we can be lured into believing a particular narrative is true because it tells us what we want to hear, not what is more likely to be true.
Nobody believes a word of Dawkins' pupils.Sandy
June 27, 2021
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PS: I took time to give an expansion of characteristics of SET's:
SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS — CHARACTERISTICS: 1] A SET is just that, true, it accurately describes actual states of affairs, e.g. split your fingers on one hand into a 2-cluster and a 3-cluster, then join, you necessarily have a 5-cluster, || + ||| –> ||||| accurately describes a state of affairs. 2] Further, a SET is understandable to anyone of appropriate experience and maturity to have formed the basic concepts and to therefore recognise the sentences expressing it. 3] A SET, is then recognisable as not only true but necessarily and manifestly true given its substance, though of course some may try to evade it or deflect it. 4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection. 5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.: – Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4 X], – undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable], – inescapability [Epictetus’ interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . . . and — yes — the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties of reason, even in the face of an ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline . . . to truth, to right reason, to prudence (including, warrant), to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc . . . where, moral truths are truths regarding states of affairs involving oughtness, i.e. duty — we ought to respect the life, body, freedom and dignity of a young child walking home from school, never mind convenient bushes and dark impulses in our hearts], – blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one’s self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing of conscience], – moral absurdity [trying to evade the message of the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child] – etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion. 6] So, SET’s are not private subjective, GIGO-limited, readily dismissible opinions or dubious notions. They are objective and in fact warranted to certainty backed up by patent absurdity on attempted denial. More than objective, they are certainly true, and especially as regards first principles and first duties of right reason, they are inescapably authoritative and antecedent to reasoned thought or argument. 7] Indeed, self-evident first truths and duties of reason are before proof and beyond refutation. The attempt to object or evade, inescapably, implicitly appeals to their authority in attempting to get rhetorical traction, and attempts to prove equally cannot escape their priority, the first truths and duties are part of the fabric of the attempted proof. So, we are duty bound to acknowledge them, to be coherently rational.
These things, of course, should long since have been part of standard High School curricula, and should have been revisited and strengthened in Freshman college instruction. Instead, we have been taught relativism and cynicism 101. No wonder we are in such trouble as a civilisation.kairosfocus
June 27, 2021
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Sev, let me follow up, noting that you were around over the past several weeks, I won't bother on going back to was it early 2019 for this series:
[SEV:] One problem is the unwarranted assumption of certainty in the truth of claimed knowledge in light of the fallible nature of our physical and mental being and the limitations of what we have learned so far about the Universe in which we find ourselves . . . . Asserting self-evident truths as anchor-points for some proposed explanatory construct might help if we can agree on what is meant by an SET and that it is more than just a rhetorical shield to protect certain arbitrary claims from challenge or criticism.
Lessee, what about the two cases I have led with, that || + ||| --> ||||| and E, error exists so ~E means it is error to assert E, thus instantly being absurd so E is undeniably, self-evidently true? What of the undeniability and inescapability of one's own self-aware consciousness and [if not unduly warped or damaged] the voice of conscience as an aspect of one's consciousness, i.e. we normally have a built-in moral voice? Then, there is the classical case I have cited any number of times on first principles of right reason:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]
This case aptly illustrates the way first principles (and onward, first duties) of reason become self-evident. As first principles, they are so inextricably entangled in our thinking, reasoning, arguing, quarrelling etc that they are pervasive and inescapable. The attempt to prove already uses them, that to disprove or dismiss, likewise. These cannot be proved or disproved or dispensed with. Either we accept such or the whole province of rational thought, communication, argument, education, civilisation collapses. (And that we find such so hard to acknowledge is a telling sign of the betrayal of our civilisation by intellectual leaders over the past 300 or so years.) What about first duties, the flash point in recent weeks? Are you seriously imagining that it is reasonable or constructive to be untruthful, cynically dismissive, dishonest in argument, unfair, conscience-crushing, etc? Of course, such cannot be asserted, but cynical snide dismissiveness can implicitly enable that sort of corrupting perversity and host-killing parasitism. The Ciceronian first duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence [including warrant], to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc stand as first principles, the other side of right reason. Likewise, as to specifics of logic, I have repeatedly used this classical C1, logic 101 case on the law of distinct identity:
1 Cor 14: 7 Yet even lifeless things, whether flute or harp, when producing a sound, if they do not produce distinct [musical] tones, how will anyone [listening] know what is piped or played? 8 And if the [war] bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So it is with you, if you speak words [in an unknown tongue] that are not intelligible and clear, how will anyone understand what you are saying? You will be talking into the air [wasting your breath]! 10 There are, I suppose, a great many kinds of languages in the world [unknown to us], and none is lacking in meaning. 11 But if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will [appear to] be a [c]foreigner to the one who is speaking [since he knows exactly what he is saying], and the one who is speaking will [appear to] be a foreigner to me. [AMP]
This example shows that meaningful communication pivots on distinction to create complex messages. In our day, we would point to digital technology and the power of the two-state bit in a chain. For nearly a decade in your presence, I have repeatedly used a bright red ball A on a table in the world W = {A|~A} as a case that draws out how LOI brings with it LNC and LEM as immediate close corollaries. Given the distinction shown by |, A is itself, isolable based on core characteristics including particularity, redness, roundness, location, etc. No x in W can be both A and ~A, any y in W will be A or else ~A, not both nor neither. The context of a world with particular entities rules out the null or empty set option for this analysis. BTW, this means that I have corrected what I was taught in Uni and from standard texts on the 17 first tautologies of Boolean Algebra. Yes, all are first tautologies as truth tables will demonstrate and ground the algebra, however as first self-evident steps LOI and its close corollaries come first epistemologically. Similarly, you were present when I took time to clarify over years and especially in recent weeks that we are finite, fallible, morally struggling, too often ill-willed and even sometimes outright stubborn. It is in that context that I took time to clarify the need to recognise these limitations of our subjectivity and address warrant to establish knowledge. I duly noted the relatively few self-evident certain plumb line truths, and commented on the weaker more common sense of knowledge commonly seen in science, etc, where there is reliability and credible but revisable belief in truth. Further to all this, I revisited the matter of what is a self-evident truth, why [I looked at this here at UD back in 2013] and elaborated a whole OP:
L&FP44: What are Self-evident truths [SET’s] and why do they matter? June 10, 2021 https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/lfp44-what-are-self-evident-truths-sets-and-why-do-they-matter/ A classic case in point of self-evident truth can be seen by splitting our fingers into a two and a three then joining them again — and, sorry, this needs to be hammered home hard as we are cutting across the grain of current education and cultural conditioning. So, pardon demonstration by undeniable example and re-use of an illustration . . .
That's what, less than three weeks ago, with 149 comments [too many distractive]? That's why your sweeping derogation and hyperskeptical suspicion as cited are unacceptable and unfair. You were there, you should have recognised and acknowledged the balance being struck precisely to provide a basis for renewal of our thinking on a sounder footing. If we are to progress, we need to do better than such. KFkairosfocus
June 27, 2021
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Isn't it all "experimental enjoyment"? I enjoy watching ID's detractors spinning yarns and telling tales. They think if they can come up with a materialistic narrative to rival the Bible they will win converts or something.ET
June 26, 2021
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