Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP 46: A big questions challenge — confident objective knowledge vs grand delusion in a going-concern world

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In recent weeks, we have seen again and again how the acid of hyperskepticism has reduced our civilisation’s confidence in self-awareness much less understanding of the world and its roots. Even as Evolutionary Materialistic Scientism, Officialdom and their media promoters (and censors) seek to create a dominant narrative. So, how do we attack this issue?

First, let’s reduce it to a graphic:

Once that is on the table, it is clear that our diverse worldviews and the extent to which any such can claim to be well warranted knowledge are at the crux of the matter. As a key aspect, as we are ourselves embedded (“apparently,” embodied with brains, senses tied to brains and self-awareness) in the going concern world, self-referentiality is inescapably entangled in the matter. So are questions of origins and the root of reality. The hyperskepticism-induced loss of confidence is manifest in our tendency to radical relativism, subjectivism and emotivism, all of which suffer serious self-referentiality challenges and undermine claimed knowledge.

Such surfaces the grand delusion challenge long ago exemplified by Plato in his parable of the cave:

Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

Of course, we should not neglect the cynical, power-manipulation Overton Window dimension of this parable:

Yes, in a hyperskeptical-cynical world, somebody is looking to gain power and likely wealth from our loss of confidence. We must bear that in mind. Similarly, the now commonly used parable of blind men and an elephant is instructive:

Here, we can focus Jesus of Nazareth’s remark on good/bad eyes, from his Sermon on the Mount, using words that tellingly echo Plato’s parable:

Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear [spiritually perceptive], your whole body will be full of light [benefiting from God’s precepts]. 23 But if your eye is bad [spiritually blind], your whole body will be full of darkness [devoid of God’s precepts]. So if the [very] light inside you [your inner self, your heart, your conscience] is darkness, how great and terrible is that darkness! [AMP]

That’s the elephant we face!

The question is, are we willing to acknowledge that someone has a better, more valid overall picture than we do? (Our tendency to cynical hyperskepticism tends to lock us into, “no.” It also tends to make us miss that relativism or the like equally claims to be the better big-picture. Incoherent self-referentiality, again.)

So, we come to a Reidian, common sense driven conclusion in two principles:

Sawing off the branch on which we sit is absurd and ruinous

REID+, 1 — Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd, and

REID+, 2 — Principle of Common Sense Credulity: While our common sense reliance on our senses and perceptions may be mistaken in detail, the inference that our common sense view of the going-concern world we share is delusional on the whole is thus . . . saw- off– the- branch- on- which- we- all- sit . . . absurd.

In that light, we can address the chain of concerns in the first graphic above:

  1. We have reason to believe our common sense experience of the going-concern, everyday world, though limited and subject to correction in detail (and obviously a macroscopic, slow-speed, localised view), is on the whole reliable and reasonably accurate; thus, Plantinga-sense fit for purpose relative to knowledge acquisition.
  2. Knowledge in the going-concern world thus becomes possible on three levels: first, our personal world experience as self-aware creatures is just that, undeniably our experience. If one is appeared to redly and roundly, that is a datum of experience.
  3. Secondly, as we can see from 2 + 3 = 5 — i.e. || + ||| –> ||||| — or error exists or inescapable first principles [including first principles . . . and, yes, associated Ciceronian first duties . . . of right reason], there are certain truths that are self-evident, certain, plumb line that — while never nearly enough to frame and furnish a worldview — serve as key tests for soundness.
  4. Third, for practical thought, work, education, media, science, governance, community and life, a weaker, corrigible sense of knowledge is also reasonable: warranted, credibly true (so, tested and reliable) belief.
  5. This weak sense may indeed have in it various errors, but is corrigible in light of first self evident principles informed by our experiences. However, such cannot amount to a Plato’s cave grand delusion, on pain of collapsing credibility of rationality thus our own selves as rational creatures.
  6. In this light, we can dismiss general hyperskepticism as a grand delusion fallacy; and if it is selectively applied to what one is inclined to dismiss (oh, YOU have to prove beyond all arbitrary doubt that . . .) , it is little more than an excuse for question-begging hostile closed mindedness.
  7. Further to these, disciplines of thought are feasible and can build up valid bodies of credible but corrigible knowledge claims: philosophy, ethics, physics, mathematics, sciences and arts generally, including history, theology etc.

We can directly apply the above to an analysis of ourselves, i.e. we can partially and yet credibly form a self-understanding. A useful framework for this is the Smith model:

Simplifying for our purposes:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

Here, we see that a two-tier cybernetic loop controller view allows us to raise the issue that the supervisory controller may embed an oracle expressing volition and intuition (including moral intuition) etc, allowing transcending of undecidability and halting problems etc that plague Turing-based computational substrates.

Where, obviously, such an oracle is not simplified to being a higher level Turing machine; that would only export the Turing problem up one level.

When queried or informed implying a query, the oracle issues a single stage answer and is a black box relative to the Turing paradigm. Thus to some degree it embeds a knowledge and intuitions base. In addition, in supervisory state, it frames the context in which action is taken, being further informed by rational, responsible (so, moral sense, conscience-guided) freedom.

From that going concern self-model, we may proceed to address the basis for, dynamics of and origins of a world that includes such creatures. Notice, this is an onward question, for without a frame for rational, responsible, knowing, free but guided thought, decision and action, there is no basis for addressing how can we know a now passed past of origins and linked substructure on roots of reality. (The attempt to hopelessly entangle ontology with epistemology, fails.)

In that context, we can immediately see that causes create effects, which may come in degrees. How much sugar is in a glass of water affects how sweet it will taste. This has immediate applications, e.g. here is a video screenshot I recently shared with policy influencers, i/l/o issues on Ivermectin — and note, this is not to excite a side-debate. (Yes, I am aware of the report of a study on Ivermectin, but frankly fear it can be twisted into a kill-shot attempt given the toxic, ideological and interests distorted state of such research.) Note, Peru is a state with about 33 million people in 25 states, comparable to Canada at 36 millions:

It is in that context (with other similar real-world, observational study/experience driven results/evidence) that the Frontline Doctors have just challenged Officialdom on Ivermectin:

Underlying, given intent to address roots of reality, is the logic of being . . . which we can know based on analysis:

Compare, a flame:

An igniting match (a contingent being)

. . . with the fire tetrahedron, which gives causal conditionality:

Fires are contingent, possible beings, even as square circles are impossible of being:

One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time

So, now, we can contemplate another order of possible being. To see it, try to imagine a distinct world in which two-ness, distinct identity etc do not exist. Or where it begins or may cease. Immediately, such fails as a distinct world W must differ from its neighbour W’ by having some A not in W’, in effect W = {A|~A} where ~A = W’. We see that two-ness is part of the framework for any world, so once there undeniably is a world [ours] it is a necessary being, part of the fabric of any world. That applies to mathematics and its universal power, but it shows that necessary, world framework entities are real.

The root of reality, world zero, W0, in effect, embeds such beings with the additional point that through origins processes such must account causally for this world, We.

This brings to bear issues on fine tuning evidence, the complex, functionally specific, algorithm, code and language using framework of cell based life, body plan biodiversity requiring 10 – 100+ million bits of incremental information per plan, and our own morally governed, minded life.

Those questions and many more are not going to go away quietly simply because they are inconvenient to today’s establishment. END

Comments
One of the more ludicrous comments in UD history.
Does Jerry mean he believes that *nobody* enjoys hard, physical labor? Or, can Jerry also read the minds of people that aren't even alive anymore? Was he talking about a particular serf in the past whose mind he read? It's probably the latter.William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
KF said:
WJM, you have championed claims about our embodiment that would undermine rationality.
You'd have to actually understand my IRT to be able to meaningfully make that observation. You clearly do not.
You have acted similarly in the teeth of repeated direct evidence from your own comments that the first duties of reason are pervasive.
You attempts at mind-reading are hardly "direct evidence."
That alone, turns your attempts to deflect focus from such, into a grand strawman-red herring fallacy pattern. That leads to sad conclusions, which are unpalatable but plain. KF
More mind reading. Do any of your arguments not depend on mind-reading? Waitaminnit ... is mind-reading part of the "common human experience" you keep talking about? Wow, maybe I am actually deficient, because I can't read your mind!!!! It all makes sense now!! You, SB, BA77, Jerry, Sandy, LDC, Q et al can actually read minds!!!!William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT
Well, I don’t know about the serf, but I have enjoyed many years of hard, physical labor
One of the more ludicrous comments in UD history. Off to the theater in Maine.jerry
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT
The serf in the 1700’s did not go out in the field every day because that was enjoyable.
Well, I don't know about the serf, but I have enjoyed many years of hard, physical labor. I've also enjoyed many years of work at a desk in the air conditioning. I guess I just enjoy a more diverse range of situations and activities than some others. IMO, no sane person could look at my actual life and say I've been "parasitical" on society. I paid in over 40 years of taxes and social security as an adult, but worked from the time I was 8 yrs old. I've only been in jail one night, and that was entirely political in nature. There wasn't even a signed complaint or a formal charge against me, let alone an arrest warrant. I've never done any kind of drugs. I don't even drink alcoholic beverages. My wife and I opened our home to several family members in need, taking care of them, providing for them. We took care of my mother in our home in her declining years as she slowly succumbed to dementia and died in her sleep in her bed in our home. I've helped out friends and family, even strangers. I did absolutely none of that because I thought or felt it was my duty. I wiped the poop of my mothers rear end not because I enjoy that sort of thing, but because I enjoy being that guy who takes care of his mother when she needs him. This is what I call understanding how to manage both direct and abstract enjoyments. Being able to enjoy the satisfaction of being "that guy" for my mom is worth the months of having to bathe her and clean her up and deal patiently with her dementia. So go ahead, call me a parasite without knowing anything about it. Tell me how useless I am in society. You have no idea what you are talking about; what I've done, what I've put on the line for others, even complete strangers, how I've worked. I guess what ultimately bothers you and KF is that I don't do a damn bit of it out of some esoteric "first duties" nonsense or some moral obligation or conscience. I do what I do, everything that I do, solely in the service of managing my enjoyments, direct and abstract. That doesn't mean I've been lollygagging near the dumpster at the Costco begging for money, Brainiac. That doesn't mean I run around gleefully hurting people because I can. I enjoy hard work. I enjoy earning a living. I enjoyed providing professional services for a better than reasonable cost. I enjoy being "that guy" for my wife, my kids, friends and family. I don't need duties, morality or conscience as rumble strips. All I need is to be keenly aware of what I actually enjoy in life.William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
WJM, you have championed claims about our embodiment that would undermine rationality. You have acted similarly in the teeth of repeated direct evidence from your own comments that the first duties of reason are pervasive. That alone, turns your attempts to deflect focus from such, into a grand strawman-red herring fallacy pattern. That leads to sad conclusions, which are unpalatable but plain. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
09:34 AM
9
09
34
AM
PDT
Would I still be a parasite because I did not feel, at any time, that I actually had any “duty” to act or behave in that manner?
But the person described did the dutifully behaviors and is not a parasite. It’s not what their feelings are. No one said duties were pleasurable? The serf in the 1700’s did not go out in the field every day because that was enjoyable. His duty was not to the landowner per se but to himself and family to maintain their continued existence. The landowner offered an opportunity for continued existence. Unfortunately, there were no other opportunities in that world. The landowner was often a parasite but one accepted by society of the time for continued stability. Theoretically he had duties towards the serfs.jerry
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
Jesus:
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.…
Lieutenant Commander Data
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
Jerry, Let's say there is zero substantive difference between your behavior over a lifetime and mine when it comes to being a productive and responsible part of society. Let's say you did what you did out of a sense of duty; and I did what I did because it pleased me to enjoy the apparent fruits of that kind of behavior in terms of general consequences - friendships, mutual support and trust, not being thrown in jail, etc. Would I still be a parasite because I did not feel, at any time, that I actually had any "duty" to act or behave in that manner?William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
08:59 AM
8
08
59
AM
PDT
The problem for KF is that I do not accept his O/E framework because of the particular lifetime of experiences that I have had
As I said this is the justification of a parasite and such behavior could not exist without the acquiesce of others. In today’s world because of its abundance it is easy to get by for a few (but only a few) to be a parasite. But there cannot be too many or else the society collapses. In the world of a 150 years ago, few in society would have accepted such behavior from others except for those who were deformed somehow either physically or mentally. Now such behavior is accepted for a few but these individuals are compromised physically, mentally or morally. Aside: there always has been individual differences between humans as there is between nearly example of any species. Individual differences does not preclude common innate characteristics of all individuals of a species. Most of these differences and innate characteristics can be explained by modern Darwinism or what is essentially genetics.jerry
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
08:27 AM
8
08
27
AM
PDT
KF said:
If you wish to argue for the delusional nature of conscience and how it affects reason by testifying to duty, you are again sawing off the branch on which we all sit.
Why would you think I would wish to argue that conscience is a "delusion?" Is the love I feel for my wife also a "delusion?" How about the joy I feel in my life? How about my experience of her and of what we call "the afterlife?" All delusional? It's apparent that the only person here who is trying to dismiss whole sets of experiences as "delusional" is you. Are you projecting?William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
08:05 AM
8
08
05
AM
PDT
Jerry said:
Yes, we have duties. First to our continued existence,
I've read KF's arguments. This entire line of reasoning depends entirely on a particular ontological perspective about what existence is and how it works. The ontological frame of reference here is our "common experience" birth-to-death lives and the apparent necessities this entails, and the "common sense" derived from that frame of reference. What this definitionally excludes are non-common experiences, and the non-common development of a rational perspective that includes and explains those kinds of experiences. I've agreed that KF's ontological/epistemological system is a good one, and is very successful, within that framework. The problem for KF is that I do not accept his O/E framework because of the particular lifetime of experiences that I have had, am still having, and which are corroborated and supported by multiple lines of "uncommon" evidence. In that framework, my existence is not defined by or limited to the segment of it that runs from birth to death. In that framework, I have no responsibility for what other people experience; I have no power over their experience, whatever I do. The only person's experience I have any "power over" is my own, and I have full, 100% responsibility for and power over that regardless of what other people do. None of this can be translated into, or judged from, KF's Ciceronian and Reidian perspective because they do not apply to my full experiential set. They like Newtonian physics; sure, they work within a certain framework, but outside of that framework, they are useless and even counter-productive.William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
07:56 AM
7
07
56
AM
PDT
WJM, the matter is clear, and your response is as expected, sadly. I think we all know the power of conscience, which is part of the direct testimony. If you wish to argue for the delusional nature of conscience and how it affects reason by testifying to duty, you are again sawing off the branch on which we all sit. In that context, we can again readily notice how our arguments inescapably appeal to such duties, a was already drawn out yet again. As to ultimate root of such empirically observable phenomena, it is on onward matter, where it points to the sort of world root that accounts for a world with creatures such as we are. That is onward, the first principle nature is already on the spot. Same regarding the absurdity of seeking to discredit the first facts of consciousness about our embodiement and existence in a world. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
Jerry, KF made a wrong argument, because it is geared towards objectivity. In practise it may lead to promote errors such as social darwinism, where what is a subjective issue, is regarded as an objective issue. Or scientific socialism, which is same, regarding a subjective issue, as if it was an objective issue. And I have already seen Sandy make comments that tend to confuse objectivity with subjectivity. Comments that only God is truly objective, while really the spirit is entirely subjective. The proper first principles are the validation of both subjectivity and objectivity, each in their own right, in one coherent conceptual scheme. Creationism. And to make first principles geared towards objectivity, is a common and serious error. It is an error atheists, and materialists also make.mohammadnursyamsu
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
06:41 AM
6
06
41
AM
PDT
Kf made a very accurate but extremely convoluted argument about human nature, natural laws, actual laws, morality and duties over several posts. Because of the unnecessarily verbose and extraneous graphics and repetitive associations to other abstract ideas people have written I doubt few if anyone has read them. They will also be littered with personal cryptic rhetoric. Usually in thousand of words and dozens of obscure graphics. But as I said, based on the little I would read/could understand, they were accurate. I found nothing in what I could readily understand to be false or unsound. Yes, we have duties. First to our continued existence, then to those close to us for their continued existence and then to those further out from us because our mutual existence is dependent on each other. Then there are objectives beyond pure existence that are innately built into humans and thus desired and their fulfillment is dependent on mutual assistance with others. So we get the traditional duties that Kf has listed a hundred times as first written down by Cicero. Then we get irrational replies claiming this is nonsense. But in actuality it is these replies that are nonsense. It has been going on for over half a year now. The real purpose ot his continued nonsense can be speculated on. But actual experience over the years with people pretty quickly narrows it down to some obvious motives.jerry
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
06:06 AM
6
06
06
AM
PDT
Jerry @257: I have lots of actual duties. The are called laws. There is an actual supervisory authority and actual consequences for not performing those duties. And, as we discussed before, if we extend the concept of duty into world of natural phenomena, I have a lot more actual duties, such as those defined as physical laws which result in physical consequences. However, KF has provided no supervising authority, either physical or as an agency, for his so-called "first duties," or for a universal morality. He has conveniently pointed at particular consequences that support his perspective that there are negative consequences for immoral behavior or for not "thinking properly" according to "first duties of reason," but he has yet to provide the necessary supervising authority that holds us responsible for those particular duties. I wonder, can you or KF make any argument that doesn't ultimately depend on mind-reading?William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
05:09 AM
5
05
09
AM
PDT
Kf, I stand by my comment. The problem is not Murray, the problem is the reaction to his nonsense. Nothing will change.jerry
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
04:54 AM
4
04
54
AM
PDT
KF, as before, your analysis of the problems in academics is flawed. It is very obvious, that when people can manufacture an mrna vaccin, that there is no basic problem with their apprehension of objectivity. It is high technology, requiring very sophisticated accurate understanding of processes. There is no fundamental problem with the comprehension of objectivity in academics. There is on the other hand, a very severe problem with comprehension of subjectivity in academics. Leading to academic people producing bad personal opinions on what is good, loving, beautiful and important. Your first principles, as they are geared towards objectivity, are therefore besides the point to address the problem at hand. Your first principles are geared towards objectivity, while the problem is with subjectivity. What is required is comprehension of subjectivity, which is an exclusively creationist concept. And ofcourse creationism has been thrown out from academics. Even most id theorists have thrown out creationism. Not realizing they threw out the baby with the bathwater. They threw out the entire concept of a subjective personal opinion, which concept is engrained in the basic structure of creationist theory.mohammadnursyamsu
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
04:26 AM
4
04
26
AM
PDT
KF: Behaviors do not a duty make or imply. Duties only exist as such in the presence of the conditions I've described. Absent demonstrating such conditions actually exist, the claim that anyone has a duty can only be a bald assertion on your part. Your attempts at mind-reading to support your assertion are irrelevant. Until you demonstrate those conditions, or at least make the attempt to do so, I have no reason to even consider your "duty" arguments.William J Murray
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
04:24 AM
4
04
24
AM
PDT
WJM, again, in brief:
Nobody needs to make an argument against KF”s “duty” concept because it’s nothing but a bald assertion, at least so far. A duty is a reason people do something. You cannot point at behavior at “figure out” if someone is performing that behavior because of a duty, especially not something so common and intrinsic to human communication like the inescapable use of basic logic and the common attempt to be rational.
Let's mark up, again, now simply for record as it is clear that you have closed yourself off from such direct demonstrations. Sad, but perhaps one day you will recognise the point: >> Nobody needs to make an argument against KF”s “duty” concept>> 1: An implicit appeal to duty, disguised under "needs". Why is there no reason to answer, oh no argument has been made, just assertion. 2: The fact claim is false, and unworthy of your earlier contributions. The argument made is that first principles are pervasive in our reasoned behaviour, and as such are inescapable. Many cases over months including this one now in progress, show such. 3: Such pervasive antecedents of rational behaviour as Epictetus pointed out, are a branch on which we all sit. To saw it off, is to immediately undermine one's own rationality. This is of course the patent absurdity on attempted denial criterion. 4: These are start-point first, self-evident truths. They must be recognised as true if anything further out is to be supported as true or credibly true, through internal or community level conversation. 5: Among such are certain first truths/facts of consciousness (including the testimony of our senses that we are embodied, in a world that is independent of us but provides air, water, food etc). Deny this or cast it under dispute and you set off a corrosive cascade that utterly discredits rationality. 6: This is manifestly your first major problem, as came out above yet again, when I tried to take you at your word regarding our embodiment, that it was credible. 7: Similarly, first quantities and the framework for numbers emerges as pervasive, 2-ness, 1-ness, nullity, thence we construct NZQRCR* etc. So too distinct identity and its close corollaries (connected to 2-ness). Further, recognising and drawing out responsible, rational freedom, its proper end being truth and the linked first duties of reason. 8: Without general respect for such and for one another in that context, we will not thrive, i.e. we are looking at undermining a manifest end of our humanity. >>because it’s nothing but a bald assertion,>> 9: Why is a bald assertion of little consequence, given that it is a claim that some state of affairs is the case, i.e. truth? Ans: in a context of disagreement we owe ourselves and the community duties of right reason, warrant and wider prudence, informed by fair-mindedness, with implicit appeal to sound conscience backing up the lot. 10: In short, yet again, you illustrate how inescapable and pervasive first duties of reason are. Fair comment, your problem is you clearly find it unpalatable to be so manifestly appealing to moral government by first duties and are in denial of what is so readily seen. >> at least so far.>> 11: A claim on your part in denial and disregard of manifest fact. Had you instead said, arguments were made but fail because of Y, that would be different. You are doing little better, here, than the hyperskeptics, unwilling to face evidence and argument, who brashly commit the confident manner fallacy of announcing that there is no evidence. >>A duty is a reason people do something. >> 12: A duty provides a reason for choosing X rather than not-X, for responsible, rationally free, thus morally governed creatures moving towards proper ends. One may be hampered or frustrated from actually carrying out the better path. 13: Duties specify what ought to be done, with the implicit reference to a proper end, which may be naturally evident. The proper end of mindedness is truth supported by good reason and broader prudence, fairness, conscience etc. >>You cannot point at behavior at “figure out” if someone is performing that behavior because of a duty,>> 14: Not clear. >>especially not something so common and intrinsic to human communication like the inescapable use of basic logic>> 15: The pervasiveness of distinct identity does come out in even the use of symbol strings to make messages, and so to an extent cannot be avoided. However, as an educated person you full well know that we often enough fail to properly recognise the defining character of concrete or abstract entities or states of affairs, find ourselves mired in contradictions and may seek for an impossible middle option. 16: In the case of such errors, we are duty bound to think straight but may well fail. Something you imply by your next claim: >>and the common attempt to be rational. >> _______________ So, yet again, you instantiate the point. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
02:40 AM
2
02
40
AM
PDT
LCD, sadly, you are right and the disintegration of thought in our civilisation runs along precisely such lines. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
02:00 AM
2
02
00
AM
PDT
PS: A similar core point, discussed somewhat above, is that we rise above being computational, GIGO-limited substrates. Such are NOT rational, being mechanically and/or stochastically driven, relative to how the substrate is organised to process signals, which may be analogue or digital. You will see my extension of the idea of an oracle machine in the OP, applied to the Smith, two-tier controller cybernetic loop. Which gives a framework to discuss embodiment. A significantly free creature with rational responsible choice is governed by the weight of ought towards proper ends. Where the evident proper end of rational capability is truth backed up by good reasoning, in a context of internal and community conversation, which brings in duties to peers of like rational responsible free nature, neighbours. Thus, justice as due balance, and law and government as tasked to defend the due balance.kairosfocus
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
01:57 AM
1
01
57
AM
PDT
Jack, you came in late. The discussion of first duties was elsewhere, and their root reference is in Cicero's De Legibus. As noted ever so often, their pervasiveness shows their first principle character. KF PS: I summarise the basic case, notice, the basic issue, FIRST, is to recognise their pervasiveness (even with objectors) then to address onward context, what sort of world has in it morally governed creatures. We can recognise our being conscience-guided, morally governed creatures fairly directly, without having a full-orbed view of reality formed through our own reflection, indeed, we need the duties to go on to such formation:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable . . . first duties of reason: "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to their legitimate authority; inescapable, so first truths of reason, i.e. they are self-evidently true and binding. Namely, Ciceronian first duties,
1st - to truth, 2nd - to right reason, 3rd - to prudence [including warrant], 4th - to sound conscience, 5th - to neighbour; so also, 6th - to fairness and 7th - to justice [ . . .] xth - etc.
Likewise, we observe again, that objectors to such duties cannot but appeal to them to give their objections rhetorical traction (i.e. s/he must imply or acknowledge what we are, morally governed, duty-bound creatures to gain any persuasive effect). While also those who try to prove such cannot but appeal to the said principles too. So, these principles are a branch on which we all must sit, including objectors and those who imagine they are to be proved and try. That is, these are manifestly first principles of rational, responsible, honest, conscience guided liberty and so too a built-in framework of law; yes, core natural law of human nature. Reason, inescapably, is morally governed. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow such first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
kairosfocus
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
01:46 AM
1
01
46
AM
PDT
Jerry, I can understand your concerns and it can be tempting to go there. The problem is, WJM has been a valuable contributor and commenter and we have had a century in which idealism dominated philosophical thought, now a century past. In addition, ever since Plato, the problem of knowledge has haunted our civilisation. While some of how he has argued does open the invitation, it seems he genuinely believes much of what he claims. Like many others with fundamentally incoherent views, the views shape how he perceives. I have sufficiently pointed out its incoherence by way of grand delusions chain (a fault that faces Plato's Cave!). I have pointed out why a common sense approach makes good sense to avert such a chain, above using one of the C20 greats, G E Moore, to do so. I have highlighted that we are looking at the issue of getting to a basic approach to credible knowledge, and how primary truths that are self-evident help drive that. As for first duties, he continues to exemplify how pervasive they are. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2021
July
07
Jul
17
17
2021
01:33 AM
1
01
33
AM
PDT
Once again, the distinction between possible, impossible and neccessary beings is an error. The fundamental distinction is between creator and creation. Between subjective beings, spiritual, and objective beings, material. The subjective emotion fear, and the object atom, belong in fundamentally different categories of being. Fear is classified in category 1, and atom is classified in category number 2, in the following conceptual scheme: 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Objectivity basically just means to copy. A fact is obtained by evidence of a creation, forcing to produce a 1 to 1 corresponding model of it, in the mind. For example, to measure the circumference of the moon, what material it consists of, the craters on it's surface, etc. all these facts together make up a 1 to 1 corresponding model of the moon. Or another example, if the police enquire from a witness about what happened, they mean to make a 1 to 1 corresponding reconstruction of what occurred. So objectivity is mostly just copying from the universe proper, to the universe of mind.mohammadnursyamsu
July 16, 2021
July
07
Jul
16
16
2021
07:48 PM
7
07
48
PM
PDT
LCD: "WJM and Jack tell us that 1+1=2 and 1+1=3 are both true in the same time." I've never said or implied anything of the sort.Jack
July 16, 2021
July
07
Jul
16
16
2021
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
KF: Jack, days ago, you were given a specific, detailed answer, which you have obviously not read. KF I missed it. I just read it. Thx.Jack
July 16, 2021
July
07
Jul
16
16
2021
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
Jerry, Where can I find the list of duties to which you refer?Jack
July 16, 2021
July
07
Jul
16
16
2021
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
. Nobody needs to make an argument against KF”s “duty” concept because it’s nothing but a bald assertion, at least so far.
This statement is utter nonsense. It's a statement by a parasite. One who depends on others doing required behavior(duties) so the parasite can stay alive. Without this fulfilling of duties by others the parasite would be dead. Here we are 257 comments into an OP that has mainly generated nonsense by a troll.
Trolling - stringing along legitimate thinkers not only as a joke but also a test to bend and twist what has been the standard meme/ cultural narrative for centuries.
Of course the troll has help by those who try to answer the troll as if what the troll says was legitimate. This has been going on for over 10,000 comments.jerry
July 16, 2021
July
07
Jul
16
16
2021
01:20 PM
1
01
20
PM
PDT
LCD Said:
I didn’t hear a sound argument against KF ‘s duty concept only crying babies
Nobody needs to make an argument against KF"s "duty" concept because it's nothing but a bald assertion, at least so far. A duty is a reason people do something. You cannot point at behavior at "figure out" if someone is performing that behavior because of a duty, especially not something so common and intrinsic to human communication like the inescapable use of basic logic and the common attempt to be rational. KF cannot possibly know my reasons for doing anything I do, outside of existential inescapables, other than what I tell him. His repeated assertion that something I do is because of a duty is pure nonsense. He cannot know that. Also, only I know what I am appealing to, if anything, and why; KF cannot possibly know that, either. These are nonsensical, irrational assertions and claims.William J Murray
July 16, 2021
July
07
Jul
16
16
2021
01:07 PM
1
01
07
PM
PDT
I didn't hear a sound argument against KF 's duty concept only crying babies :"I have my truth(my E/O) you have your truth(your E/O). " without knowing this is a self refutation. It's embarassing. The statement :"I have my truth(my E/O) you have your truth(your E/O)" is always logically FALSE because destroy the concept of truth . WJM and Jack tell us that 1+1=2 and 1+1=3 are both true in the same time. :) Truth is not a preference or a wishfull thinking .Lieutenant Commander Data
July 16, 2021
July
07
Jul
16
16
2021
11:56 AM
11
11
56
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 12

Leave a Reply