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No-one Knows the Mind of God . . . Except the Committed Atheist

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Fair warning to the regular readership.

Typically I like to cover intelligent design and evolution-related issues, but I trust I may be permitted a bit of a detour.  There have been a couple of interesting posts recently by Sal, vjtorley and Barry about issues of a more philosophical bent.  vjtorley’s OP, in particular, quoted parts of an essay from Professor Jerry Coyne.  I would like today to share some thoughts on point.

With apologies to those not of the Judeo-Christian tradition, my comments will focus in part on the Bible, given that the Bible and the God of the Bible have been the brunt of many new atheist attacks recently, including Coyne’s.  Similar points, no doubt, could be made with respect to other religious traditions.

In Coyne’s Atheism of the Gaps essay, he says:

There are huge gaps in believers’ understanding of God, and in those lacunae, I claim, lies strong evidence for No God. Here are some of those religious gaps:

  • Why would the Abrahamic God, all-loving and all-powerful, allow natural evils to torment and kill people? Why can’t he keep kids from getting cancer? How did the Holocaust fit into God’s scheme?

  • Why, if God wants us to know and accept him so much, does he hide himself from humanity?

  • Why would an omnibenevolent God consign sinners to an eternity of horrible torment for crimes that don’t warrant that? (In fact, no crimes do!). The official Catholic doctrine, for instance, is that unconfessed homosexual acts doom you to an eternity of immolation in molten sulfur. And would the Christian God really let someone burn forever because they were Jews, or didn’t get baptized?

  • Why is God in the Old Testament such a jerk, toying with people for his amusement, ordering genocides in which women and children are killeden masse, and allowing she-bears to kill a pack of kids just for making fun of a prophet’s baldness? How does that comport with the God worshipped today?

  • Why didn’t Jesus return during his followers’ lifetime, as he promised?

JWTruthInLove @23 in that thread provides a number of responses, which are worth reviewing.  He is being perhaps a bit sarcastic, but several of his statements are perfectly reasonable responses to Coyne’s list.

Coyne’s thinks he finds “strong evidence for no God.”  Yet his argument, when we cut through the clutter, is essentially as follows:

1. God, if He existed, would be like X.

2. Evidence shows God is not like X.

3. Therefore, God does not exist.

We can argue specific evidence under #2, and in many cases this is a useful approach because the alleged evidence is not quite what it claims to be.  Yet the first foundational question for Coyne’s Atheism of the Gaps worldview should be: On what basis do you think God is like X?

What Do I Think God Should Be Like?

This exchange highlights the fact that the anti-religious zealot so often approaches the matter with a very concrete God in mind, a concept of how they think God should be (if only there were such a being).  Then when the facts don’t seem to align with that superficial and hypothetical image they have created in their own minds, they proclaim that God must not exist.

In this particular case, for example, Coyne’s complaints mirror the usual grievances that have been leveled against Deity since the beginning:

Why is life hard?

Why is there suffering?

Why doesn’t God just save everybody instead of condemning some to punishment?

Why doesn’t God give me a sign instead of making me exercise faith?

Why does God make me pass through trials and tribulations in life, like having to do my own taxes, rather than doing them for me?

And on and on . . .

Coyne’s list is not novel, nor even particularly intellectually challenging.  It is essentially another in the long tradition of “arguments from evil” against the existence of God.  The argument from evil has been dealt with in detail by numerous capable authors in many writings, so I need not recap, but will just highlight one particular point.

It is a mystery – Coyne doesn’t specify (unless he is willing to confess to a personal revelation he received from God) – why Coyne would think that, say, the God of the Bible is primarily concerned that everyone be happy all the time, that life be a carefree paradise, that there be no suffering, that we should be beat over the head with signs instead of exercising faith, that our modern sensibilities should match up with ancient cultures, that life should even be fair, that God should be primarily interested in our temporary earthly comfort rather than in teaching us lessons and our more long-term salvation.

This isn’t to say I don’t identify with any of his complaints.

It is quite true – and to this extent I empathize with the atheist inquiry – that the Bible (the Old Testament, really) contains all manner of material that we would deem shocking, repulsive, abhorrent, outrageous, unfair, and even cruel if it were to occur today.  I’ve been re-reading the Old Testament myself the past few months and on more than one occasion have had the fleeting thought: “I’m not sure if I want my kids reading this stuff!”  Sometimes it is difficult to tell whether we are reading a passage from the Old Testament or the Police Blotter from yesterday’s newspaper.

Now, it is also true that much in the Old Testament can be better understood if we take time to learn about the cultures and the times, a task so many Biblical critics seem loathe to undertake.  Nevertheless, based on some of the incidents as reported in the Old Testament, I can understand – indeed, even empathize with – the sentiment that “Hey, if that is what God is like, then I don’t want anything to do with it.”

But it simply doesn’t follow from that revulsion, from that rejection of that kind of God, from our desire for a gentler Being that meets with our personal expectations – it simply doesn’t follow from all of this that God doesn’t exist.  So the conclusion that is reached doesn’t follow logically from the evidence – even if the evidence is taken at its absolute worst.

More importantly, for the believer, such an approach also fails to take into account all of the evidence on the other side of the coin: the many accounts in the Bible of tenderness and love and protection and guidance and divine assistance; the culture and practices of the times; evidence for the existence of a creator in the history of the cosmos and life; the “more excellent way” that was subsequently shown through Christ; the tradition of service to our fellow-beings that is taught repeatedly and forcefully in holy writ; the personal divine spiritual experiences that many people have experienced in their own lives even today.

Thus, the atheist rejection of God, based on the cruelties in the Old Testament, or the many challenges and difficulties of life generally, is, in addition to its logical flaws, a move based on a very limited survey of the evidence, a move based on a failure to consider the broader picture, a move based on a myopic blindness to many of the facts, rather than (as the atheist smugly pats himself on the back and loudly proclaims) an objective analysis of all the evidence.

Against this backdrop, one might be forgiven for considering the possibility that the vocal atheist is motivated more by a desire to grind his philosophical axe than by a desire to objectively review all the evidence at hand.

The Great Irony

All of this leads to one of the great ironies in the debate about the existence of God:

No-one seems so cock-sure of exactly what God is like, exactly what God’s characteristics are, exactly how to understand God, than the anti-religious zealot.  He is convinced he knows just how God is and how God should act in particular situations . . . if, of course, such a being existed.

In ironic contrast, those who believe God actually exists take seriously the scriptural caution that “my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways” (Isaiah 55:8).  Such individuals recognize that we do not understand everything, but that there is, in the striving, a process of becoming and growing and learning.  That the very essence of life eternal (a goal not yet obtained by the believing mortal, but nevertheless obtainable at some future point) is to come to truly know God (John 17:3).

As a result, the believer is ever striving to learn what God is like and to submit his will to the Divine will in particular circumstances.  In contrast, the anti-religious zealot is convinced he knows exactly what God is like and what God would do – and should do – in those particular circumstances.  The anti-religious zealot, in decrying God’s actions and loudly proclaiming what God should or should not do, attempts to assume the role of the omniscient and demands: “Not Thy will, but mine be done.”

And so, the great irony persists:

The committed atheist is convinced he knows the mind of God.  The believer acknowledges he doesn’t, at least not fully, not yet today.  The committed atheist thinks he has already arrived at the pinnacle of knowledge about God.  The believer realizes he has not, but trusts that in submitting his will to the Divine he can, one day, come to truly know God.

Comments
@Erik:
anyone who goes to Hell, walks through the gates voluntarily.
Since the overwhelming majority of people don't want to go to hell, your imaginary hell must be a pretty empty space.JWTruthInLove
April 29, 2014
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Great OP Thank you Erik Here is my understanding scripture, In the absence of God there can be no life, since there are people that choose not to be saved, they will not be burning in Hell or have eternal agony, they will just be dead. Hell is reserved not for humans but for those that are from the Kingdom and rejected it outright. We pray every night "Thy will be done" One day God will say to you "Thy will be done". No God means no life and you are here to choose what want. Now that is an awesome and just God that value's your own free will above His own name.Andre
April 28, 2014
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Tony @13: Just another follow-up to your comment.
The one (“x is”) makes an infinite number of claims, the other (“x is not”) makes just the one. The “God, if He existed, would not be like X” formulation makes no claim, at all, about what God is other than “not X”: there is no claim to know the mind of God.
If we followed your example, the reasoning would be like this: 1. God, if He is like I think He is, would not be like X. 2. Evidence shows God is like X. 3. Therefore, God is not like I thought He was and I may need to rethink my conception of God. I'm perfectly happy with that approach. But that is most definitely not what Coyne (or anyone else arguing from evil/suffering in the world) is arguing. He is arguing that because God is not like Coyne thinks God should be, then God does not exist. So, to go to your other example, it would be like someone saying (about you): 1. Tony, if he exists, is 6'8" tall. 2. Tony is not 6'8" tall. 3. Therefore, Tony does not exist! The real problem is not so much the formulation of 2 and 3 (and it doesn't matter whether the overall argument is phrased in the positive or the negative). The real problem is in the underlying assumption built into #1. Thus, as I have laid out in the OP, we could quarrel with various aspects of #2 -- is the evidence clear?, have we measured properly?, etc. But the key problem is in the a priori philosophical assumption that underlies Coyne's personal conception of God.Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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If God exists, children would not die of cancer. Children die of cancer, Therefore God does not exist. QEDMung
April 28, 2014
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Evolve @21:
This is flawed reasoning. Just because we have seen humans intelligently designing objects doesn’t automatically imply natural designs are the product of a fictitious supernatural designer. We need evidence for the existence of such a designer and why and how he went about doing it.
No-one "automatically" assumes living systems are the product of design because of human design. It is an inference. It is based, yes in part, on analogy to other systems we see that we know are designed. However, it is also based on the facts that (i) in every instance in which we know the source of such a system, it has turned out to be intelligent design, (ii) there is no known natural process that can account for such systems, and (iii) there are good evidentiary reasons for doubting that natural processes have the capability to generate such systems. Finally, the idea that we must know about the designer before we can infer design is simply false. We can, and regularly do, infer design from artifacts themselves. Indeed, we often learn about the designer and some of the capabilities of the designer from the artifacts.
After all, man-made objects do not grow, metabolize, reproduce or evolve on their own, but living things do all that by themselves. We are yet to observe any supernatural intervention in a tree developing from a seed or a human baby developing from a zygote.
Yes, this is a typical materialist talking point, but it is completely silly -- and backwards. Essentially the argument is: (i) we observe that natural processes cannot produce complex functional systems that do X; but notwithstanding that fact, (ii) we will assert that natural processes can produce complex functional systems that do more than X. Utterly illogical. And without evidentiary support. In addition, if you make that argument I presume you are also willing to go on record stating that if, at some future date, humans are able to build a self-replicating system, then that will be evidence for design in living systems? See, also, our recent thread on this self-replication issue: https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/thinking-upside-down-the-abiogenesis-paradigm/Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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tjguy @18:
What ought to amaze us then, is NOT that God judges sin, but rather that He allows us sinful rebellious ungrateful lovers of self to live at all! He could just condemn us all and still be totally just, but He instead He found a way to remain just and also to forgive sin. He poured out the full brunt of His righteous anger against sin on His only beloved Son! God Himself took our punishment for us!
Yes, that is a good way of articulating the divine balance to the inherent tension between justice and mercy -- a balance we all struggle with in our own lives, if we are honest with ourselves. Do we pass the beggar on the street without giving him money (this particular situation led to a lengthy and worthwhile discussion with my son just last week)? Do we make our child suffer the full brunt of a mistake, or do we jump in and resolve the situation for her? A dozen similar decisions we struggle with each week. Incidentally, I've mentioned the following before, but in the context of your comments and the current discussion I thought I should mention it again. Anyone who has any interest in the problem of evil owes it to themselves to read Benjamin Wiker's excellent essay, available in a couple of places, including here: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=5782Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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WJM @17: Well said.Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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Evolve @16: This may come as a surprise, but there are some things in your comment @16 I can agree with. :) Let me see if I can parse through your comment a bit.
This is exactly why God is useless for explaining nature. God is such an unknown commodity that theists like you can attribute literally anything to him! There’s nothing that would disprove God – be it evil, suffering or whatever.
Well, I haven't invoked God for explaining all of nature. A designer to explain certain aspects of nature, yes. As to disproof of God, you are quite right that one cannot disprove a negative. No apologies for that, it is just the way logic works. But I understand -- and share -- your concern. There is, I agree, a danger in attributing any old event or circumstance to God. Much of the whole point in intelligent design proponents pursuing and developing concepts like complex specified information, functional complexity, irreducible complexity and the like, is precisely to avoid attributing agency in those cases in which it may not be warranted. So your concern is noted; it is a shared concern. And at least insofar as intelligent design theory is concerned, it has been dealt with. As to the question of evil or suffering in the world, that has been discussed by many people much smarter than you and me for many centuries. I personally don't find the existence of evil and/or suffering to be particularly problematic. Indeed, it seems that the theistic approach has a better grasp of all the evidence -- not just evil and suffering, but also goodness, kindness, altruism, etc. -- than any other philosophical position. Others may disagree, but they need to do so on the basis of all the evidence. Coyne takes the common, but very simplistic and juvenile, approach of essentially saying that because we witness suffering and unpleasantness, then God doesn't exist. Not a sound position to take.
No matter how convincing the evidence for a natural account, you can still say that’s how God did it. For example, life shows strong evidence of having evolved from a common ancestor. But theists try to get around that by claiming that’s how God wanted to do it and who are we to question it?
Between you and me, I think this is a fair observation of some people's position. Personally, I don't have a philosophical dog in the fight about whether present life "evolved from a common ancestor." An evidentiary one, yes. But not a philosophical one. Even if we add the (assumed but unstated) assumption that present life "evolved from a common ancestor without any intelligent guidance or intervention," I would be open to considering it . . . from a philosophical standpoint. The problem is that it just doesn't hold up from an evidentiary standpoint.
But this strategy makes God a redundant explanation. If you can already explain something by natural means, then why invoke a God for which no evidence exists?
I agree with you that invoking God to explain something that can already be explained by purely natural processes is potentially redundant. I personally don't find such an approach to be intellectually satisfying. I don't invoke God (or any agent) to "explain" why my pencil hits the floor when it rolls off my desk; the reference to gravity is quite adequate to explain the phenomenon in question. Similarly, if an individual were under the mis-impression that there is a good purely natural explanation for how life arose without the involvement of an intelligent agent, then there would be no need to invoke an intelligent agent to explain the origin of life. So I don't personally feel a philosophical need to invoke God (or any intelligent agent) to explain the origin of life, for example. However, there is a tremendous evidentiary need to invoke an intelligent agent to explain the origin of life. No need to rehash the details on this thread, but there have been many discussions on UD about abiogenesis and the like. There are good reasons why many rational people have concluded that intelligent agency was involved in the origin of life -- completely separate and apart from any religious/philosophical commitment.Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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#45 TSErik:
anyone who goes to Hell, walks through the gates voluntarily. People condemn themselves by the rejection of the Creator.
All these people are fully informed and fully aware of the consequences? The Designer Of Hell is actually doing them a favor, because this is exactly what they want and want forever?Box
April 28, 2014
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Smidlee @ 48
...book “God Delusion” is intelligent designed
maybe intelligently designed to make money? ;-)Dionisio
April 28, 2014
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This comment appeared in another thread, but I think it's not off topic here:
Somewhere I read that this world is the closest to hell true Christian believers will be, and the closest to Heaven those who reject Christ will be. If someone enjoys rejecting and mocking God, that soul would not enjoy to be in Heaven, where all we are going to do is praise God constantly without break, non-stop, forever and ever, on and on and on, over and over again. If brief worshipping bothers them now, then Heaven would be a torment to them. Being apart from God forever is hell. Isn’t that what unrepentant souls want after all? So what’s all that whining and complaining about God allowing them to end in hell? Really, don’t get it. I don’t love God because I want to be in Heaven. It’s the other way around. I want to be in Heaven, because God loves me so much, and His love is so great, so delightful, so undeserved, and so amazing, that I want to be in His presence and enjoy Him forever. I was on that wide road that leads to destruction, completely blind and lost, but the merciful and gracious God pulled me out of that horrendous path, opened my eyes, and let me enter the narrow way that leads to eternal life in His glorious presence. So now I sing hallelujah, the Lamb has overcome!
Dionisio
April 28, 2014
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I find it strange when people argue that they believe man-made things are intelligent designed but not their brain. Richard Dawkins believed his book "God Delusion" is intelligent designed yet not his brain. Maybe man not so intelligent after all.Smidlee
April 28, 2014
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There is no god, no right or wrong and no good or evil. There’s just life or death, predator or prey and survival. Nothing more. There is nothing in this universe that says humanity as a species, as a society or as individuals must survive. NOTHING. Human extinction is just as valid as dinosaur extinction. There is no difference between stepping on an ant or killing a baby. For those of you who will try to use me as an example, I say that I would not “like” to be attacked or killed simply because it threatens the survival of my genes but that doesn’t make it evil or wrong. It’s just nature. No animal likes to be threatened but it has nothing to do with the imaginary human construct of morality. That is a really big pile of derp, even coming from you.Barb
April 28, 2014
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There is no god, no right or wrong and no good or evil.
Generally, opinions are a dime dozen. But the opinion of a dirt worshipper is not even in the ballpark.Mapou
April 28, 2014
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I’m entirely open to hearing arguments that purport to support the eternal suffering position, but I will offer this caveat: the idea of allowing anyone to suffer for eternity – with no hope for parole or relief – is, IMO, self-evidently immoral.
I can answer from an Orthodox Christian perspective. To paraphrase an idea often repeated: anyone who goes to Hell, walks through the gates voluntarily. People condemn themselves by the rejection of the Creator.TSErik
April 28, 2014
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There is no god, no right or wrong and no good or evil. There's just life or death, predator or prey and survival. Nothing more. There is nothing in this universe that says humanity as a species, as a society or as individuals must survive. NOTHING. Human extinction is just as valid as dinosaur extinction. There is no difference between stepping on an ant or killing a baby. For those of you who will try to use me as an example, I say that I would not "like" to be attacked or killed simply because it threatens the survival of my genes but that doesn't make it evil or wrong. It's just nature. No animal likes to be threatened but it has nothing to do with the imaginary human construct of morality.JLAfan2001
April 28, 2014
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@ humbled That's awesome... I will need to borrow this from Sean Thomas'.. The atheist and their mirage of an existence, never ceases to amaze me..KRock
April 28, 2014
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An arrowhead requires a designer, but DNA does not? Really?
Well put.Mapou
April 28, 2014
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Greetings. To William @ 37 If I consider what Dr. JDD wrote at 34, and what jw777 has written at 35, I will not be surprised that some people will be willing to "lock themselves up".seventrees
April 28, 2014
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As a Christian I can't stand the word "supernatural". If it exists, it is natural in my view and it isn't magic either. My God does not use magic to design anything. He uses knowledge, patience and understanding. The only magic I see is coming from the Darwinists: Dirt-did-it.Mapou
April 28, 2014
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The existence of design does not implicate an intelligent designer was behind it. Yes, it does, by its very name. Design implies a designer. We see that for man-made objects like cars & computers, but not for natural objects like living organisms. Let me get this straight: man-made objects like cars require designers and factories to produce, but a human being--something far more complicated, does not require a designer. An arrowhead requires a designer, but DNA does not? Really?Barb
April 28, 2014
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Evolve said:
No need for FAQs.
No need for engagement with someone who cannot even be bothered to read and apprehend the basics about that which they pretend to be arguing against.William J Murray
April 28, 2014
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I'm entirely open to hearing arguments that purport to support the eternal suffering position, but I will offer this caveat: the idea of allowing anyone to suffer for eternity - with no hope for parole or relief - is, IMO, self-evidently immoral.William J Murray
April 28, 2014
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William @ 27 ///First, please note how you have rigged your response by calling anything in question a “natural design”. If you want honest, productive debate, you should refrain from simply asserting your conclusion in your response. Let’s call the item under debate “X-design”/// Oh c'mon, I called it "natural design" because it is design found in nature. Simple as that. ///Not for an initial finding that X-design is better explained by some sort of intelligent process/// What intelligent process? Produce evidence. All evidence we have is entirely consistent with natural processes. Design can arise on its own as nature shows us every day. There is design in both animate and inanimate matter. The existence of design does not implicate an intelligent designer was behind it. We observe life growing & evolving on their own and we can see how past life grew and evolved in fossils and DNA. The way organisms are related is well-explained by the theory of evolution. We haven't seen factories and assembly lines in the sky producing hearts, livers and kidneys and fitting them together to make a human. We see that for man-made objects like cars & computers, but not for natural objects like living organisms. ///I think you are making the same mistake so many have made before you; ID doesn’t make any claims about the supernatural. The fundamental disagreement ID has with Darwinistic evolution is not “natural vs supernatural” but “natural vs artifice”. You might want to peruse the FAQ provided here before you make more errors from a fundamental misconception about what ID is and claims./// Yeah yeah you don't know anything about your designer, you've no clue whether he even exists, hell you don't even attempt to find out anything about him! But you'll still invoke him wherever required to "explain" natural phenomena. And you've been doing this for eons with no progress. You're still where you were when you started out - square one. No need for FAQs. Everyone with half a brain knows ID offers little in the way of arguments. All you are doing is attacking evolution from all sides, although you keep on failing spectacularly at that, thanks to flawed reasoning and a total absence of solid evidence.Evolve
April 28, 2014
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This is a genuinely good intro of part of the state of the matter, well summed up in the starting 1., 2., and 3. propositions in the article. However, I think it can be more succinctly summarized as an issue of pride. If you are humble, you can learn. If you aren't, you by definition cannot until something forces you to be humbled. If you refuse to be humbled, you will never learn. That's that. Eric Metaxas gave a great reminder to believers in his address at the national prayer breakfast in 2012: if it weren't but for the Grace of God, we would be standing on the other side of this issue. Make all the appeals to reason, evidence and logic you want, and you will never reach the committed atheist, only the intellectually honest agnostic. If you want to reach the committed atheist, you cannot appeal to any thought process, because his is entirely closed with pride. Instead you must somehow love him in such a way to inculcate a spirit of humility in him. A spirit of humility out of obstinate pride is a miracle. So good luck. Perhaps a better starting point would be to ask if someone wants to know God. If the answer is no, shake the dust off of your sandals. I've heard Frank Turek ask "if Christianity were true, would you believe it," someone answer "no," and then he says, "then let's just go out to Starbucks or something, because why are even having this discussion then?"jw777
April 28, 2014
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Evolve:
This is flawed reasoning. Just because we have seen humans intelligently designing objects doesn’t automatically imply natural designs are the product of a fictitious supernatural designer. We need evidence for the existence of such a designer and why and how he went about doing it. After all, man-made objects do not grow, metabolize, reproduce or evolve on their own, but living things do all that by themselves. We are yet to observe any supernatural intervention in a tree developing from a seed or a human baby developing from a zygote.
Here in lies the incredible illogic nature of naturalistic evolution. I quote again:
we need evidence for the existence of such a designer and why and how he went about doing it.
We have no evidence for a naturalistic OOL. Absolutely zero. No model that even makes sense. Yet you claim through "science" that we can simply say that this is because we do not know the conditions, we haven't elucidated it yet does not make it not true, it is a theory with constant refinement. Yet what you then take, you fail to give in the utmost peversion of what you call science. You claim something that has no observation, has no model that can be tested and demonstrated as a real possibility, and has no real evidence (cannot be seen or heard or truly felt the effects of), as being 99.99% likely to be true. Yet you attribute the above qualities of a "Designer" as reasons to reject the possibility of a designer's existence, and you use it as an excuse to say it cannot be true. That is hypocrisy in its purest form, yet you use the word "science" and you make hand-waving statements about "one day we will understand better" and "one day we will be able to test" yet your door is closed on one day being able to detect or understand a designer better. It is not even an option to you. Yet further you reject the evidence - plain in simple what has come from your mouth before. "Life gives rise to life." Not "No life gives rise to life" - that has never ever been observed. We have only ever observed life giving rise to life. So how did life begin? From life, is the simplist answer. And there is your observation - there must have been life to give rise to life. You want to talk about evidence yet you reject every bit of evidence thrown your way as you have a faith system of your own. I don't expect you, or other committed atheists to change your faith system - I just ask that there is an admission that it has no more evidence than the existence of a life outside the universe that started life. That is actually in a very simple way, interpreting the evidence. Let's play a game for a minute and pretend as though the New Testament is real. With something like 25,000 ancient copies of the various components of the NT it has more evidence than any other ancient document. However, let us pretend it is a factual eye-witness account (the Gospels) of Jesus and his life on earth. Let's not even think about whether Jesus is deity or not, let's just take eye witness accounts for now, as being real. What generally happened? Jesus healed the sick, cured the deaf, blind, mute, raised people from the dead, healed many illnesses, in front of the Pharisees and the people of Israel. Yet they wanted to and they did crucify him. These people were presented with the most validating evidence of the supernatural you could ask for. Raising someone from the dead, making the lame walk, the blind see. If that was true, there is no other explanation than supernatural and consequently, you should listen to this man's claims! Yet people who observed this with their very own eyes wanted to kill him and rejected what he said. So I ask you, what sign would convince the atheist? That is rhetoric. You don't want a sign. Jesus gave a parable on that, it was called the Rich Man and Lazarus. That is quite apt for these debates: "‘...but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He [Abraham] said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." So I ask you - what actually would make you believe? I believe there is enough evidence around us. You do everything in your power to reject any evidence of a designer. Nothing will make you change that. This is the irony of the Ham - Nye debate. Ham was the only honest one when he said "Nothing" would make him change his mind. I am pretty sure nothing would make Nye change his mind either, even evidence. JDDr JDD
April 28, 2014
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Eric posts some interesting questions for consideration:
“Is God invariably nice, without punishing His children?
No parent goes without punishing their children at one time or another. I don’t know that I’d describe God as “nice” but rather as “loving”. I don’t want my children to be spoiled, and therefore I don’t give them everything they want when they ask for it. This is entirely rational and reasonable. God is loving and does not give us everything we want when we ask for it, because he can foresee the consequences of our decisions. He respects our gift of free will and doesn’t force us to follow his rules, but he openly states that they are there for our benefit (see Isaiah 48:17,18)
Will everyone be saved?
Short answer: no. The Bible clearly indicates that some will not. This is not due to God’s not loving them but rather their own hard heartedness and refusal to accept God’s provision for salvation. (see Proverbs 2:21,22).
Does God prevent all wars and famines and other outrages?
No. But just because he does not prevent a war does not mean that he causes a war, or a famine, or any other deviant behavior. Atheists complain repeatedly that God does nothing to alleviate suffering. This ignores the counsel in the Bible that could potentially alleviate a lot of suffering in the world. In my study of the Bible, I’ve come across at least five reasons (there are probably more) as to why suffering persists: Bad government. “When anyone wicked bears rule, the people sigh,” says the Bible (Proversb 29;2). History is filled with dictators who ruled with an iron fist, bringing untold suffering to their subjects (see Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot). Not every ruler is a dictator, of course, but even if they have the best of intentions for their fellowmen, once they are in power, they often find that their efforts are frustrated by infighting and power struggles. Or they may abuse their power for personal gain, to the detriment of the people. “History is a tale of efforts that failed, of aspirations that weren’t realized,” said former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Notably, The Bible also points out: “It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” (Jeremiah 10:23) Imperfect humans lack the necessary wisdom and foresight to manage all their own affairs successfully. If people cannot direct their own steps, how can they direct the steps of a nation? Can you see why human rulers do not have the ability to eliminate suffering? Religion. Yes, atheists, religion (in some instances) has caused more problems than it has alleviated. Religious leaders of every creed and denomination preach love and unity. The reality is that they have failed to instill in their followers a love strong enough to eliminate biases. Rather than helping to cultivate love, religion often contributes to the division, bigotry, and strife among peoples and national groups. In the conclusion of his book Christianity and the World Religions, theologian Hans Küng wrote: “The most fanatical, the cruelest political struggles are those that have been colored, inspired, and legitimized by religion.” (see John 13:35). Human imperfection/selfishness. The atheists don’t like to admit that they’re imperfect. They believe that we are evolving to be better than what we were. This isn’t true, and can be demonstrated by reading any daily newspaper. We all make mistakes, sometimes intentionally (see James 1:14, 15). Author P. D. Mehta wrote: “A vast amount of suffering is due to our own lust, to our feverish pleasure-seeking and self-indulgence, to our greed and our ambition.” Cravings and addictions of all kinds—alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex, and so on—have ruined many “respectable citizens” and have brought suffering to their family, friends, and others. Demonic influence. Atheists ignore this mostly because if you don’t believe in God, it stands to reason that you don’t believe in a devil, either. The devil is actively engaged in controlling and misleading people. This is not describing Exorcist-style demonic possession but rather harassment designed to draw people away from God (see Ephesians 6:12). The “last days”. The apostle Paul described world conditions very vividly in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Some two thousand years ago, the Bible foretold: “Know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.” Pointing out what makes the times critical, it goes on to say: “For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, . . . having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.” Surely a key reason for all the suffering we see today is that we are living in “the last days.”
Is God more interested in Earth life being a comfortable paradise, rather than a learning experience?
I think this is what atheists want life on Earth to be, if they believed God existed: a comfortable paradise. Basically, what they want is a fool’s paradise where their every whim is catered to. Adversity, while unpleasant and painful, is one of the best tools for character development. We don’t learn endurance if everything always goes our way. Just as we don’t get physically strong without strenuous workouts, we don’t (and can’t) get spiritually strong without study, meditation, and some hardship that allow us to demonstrate our faith.Barb
April 28, 2014
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Moreover, as would be expected if Gravity (i.e. General Relativity) were truly overcome in the resurrection of Christ, the process in which the 3-Dimensional/Photographic negative image was formed on the Shroud was a quantum process. The image was not formed by a classical process.
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values - Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio - 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the 'quantum' is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Personally, considering the extreme difficulty that many brilliant minds have had in trying to reconcile Quantum Mechanics and special relativity (QED), with Gravity, I consider the preceding nuance on the Shroud of Turin to be a subtle, but powerful, evidence substantiating Christ’s primary claim as to being our Savior from sin, death, and hell:
John 8:23-24 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins. G.O.S.P.E.L. – (the grace of propitiation) – poetry slam – video https://vimeo.com/20960385
Verse and Music:
Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Shatter Me Featuring Lzzy Hale - Lindsey Stirling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49tpIMDy9BE
bornagain77
April 28, 2014
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As to seeing if Hell actually is a part of reality, should we not first check the scientific evidence to see what it says to see if Hell is in fact a part of reality before we drift into endlessly wrangling over different theological and philosophical interpretations of Hell (as has been done for hundreds if not thousands of years?)? Yesterday, on News' post on time, I highlighted the fact that we now have empirical support for the Theistic belief that there is a higher, 'eternal', spatial-temporal reality above this 3-dimensional reality we currently live in:
Or we could picture spacetime as a fluid - April 27, 2014 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/or-we-could-picture-spacetime-as-a-fluid/#comment-497995
What I did not mention in that post yesterday is that we also have empirical evidence of another completely different eternity than the one that is revealed by Einstein's special relativity.
Time dilation Excerpt: Time dilation: special vs. general theories of relativity: In Albert Einstein's theories of relativity, time dilation in these two circumstances can be summarized: 1. --In special relativity (or, hypothetically far from all gravitational mass), clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer accelerating, hypothetically, to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop). 2.--In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field—such as in closer proximity to a planet—are found to be running slower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
i.e. As with any observer accelerating to the speed of light, it is found that for any ‘hypothetical’ observer falling to the event horizon of a black hole, that time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop for them. This is because the accelerative force of gravity at black holes is so intense that not even light can escape its grip:
Space-Time of a Black hole - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8
— But of particular interest to the ‘eternal framework’ found for General Relativity at black holes;… It is interesting to note that entropic decay, which is the primary reason why things, and people, grow old and eventually die in this universe, is found to be greatest at black holes.
80 years in 40 seconds - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9wToWdXaQg Entropy of the Universe - Hugh Ross - May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang? “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space." "Einstein's equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist." Kip S. Thorne - "Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy" pg. 476
i.e. Black Holes are found to be ‘timeless’ singularities of destruction and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order such as the extreme order we see at the creation event of the Big Bang. Needless to say, the implications of this ‘eternity of destruction’ should be fairly disturbing for those of us who are of the ‘spiritually minded' persuasion! In light of this dilemma that the two very different eternities present to us spiritually minded people, and the fact that Gravity is, in so far as we can tell, completely incompatible with Quantum Mechanics,,,
A Capella Science - Bohemian Gravity! - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjbtsX7twc
,,,then it is interesting to point out a subtle nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Namely that Gravity was overcome in the resurrection event of Christ,,,
A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation
bornagain77
April 28, 2014
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Tony Lloyd @13: Thanks for your comments. You are trying to draw a distinction without substance. Notice I have not necessarily disputed that "God is not like X" nor have I affirmed that "God is like X" (although I noted that issues could be raised regarding such evidence). The primary problem I am focused on is in claim #1, in claiming to know what God is or is not like. It doesn't make any substantive difference whether it is phrased in the positive or the negative. The atheist, in making a claim about what God is like (or is not like, take your pick), is making an affirmative claim about characteristics of God, about God's attributes, about what God would or would not do in certain circumstances. Coyne thinks, as do so many of the anti-religious, that his list of complaints constitutes "strong evidence for No God". So he is certainly making a statement, an affirmative statement, about what he thinks God is/should be like. Think of it this way. If Coyne's argument had been the following, I would wholeheartedly agree with him (I'll use your negative formulation to avoid us getting hung up on that difference): 1. I think that God, if He existed, would not be like X. 2. Evidence shows God is like X. 3. Therefore, perhaps I've gotten it all wrong and I need to rethink my conception of God. If Coyne were to say that, I would wholeheartedly endorse his conclusion in #3. But he doesn't. ----- Again, I have some empathy for the atheist complaint against the particular conception of God that is so often espoused. Is God invariably nice, without punishing His children? Will everyone be saved? Does God prevent all wars and famines and other outrages? Is God more interested in Earth life being a comfortable paradise, rather than a learning experience? We could quibble with the evidence here and there, but we might well conclude that the evidence shows God is not like that (or that He is like something else -- again, it doesn't make any substantive difference whether we formulate it in the positive or the negative). So, yes, I could probably agree with Coyne that that kind of God does not exist. But it simply doesn't follow that God does not exist. Rather, the most reasonable explanation is that our perceptions, our conceptions, our personal biases and wishes for what God should be like, are in error. Coyne, however, doesn't go down that path. He thinks his questions point to "strong evidence for No God." Why? Because he thinks he knows what God is and isn't like. For the proud, it is easier to abandon God than to acknowledge that one's perceptions of God might be in error.Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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