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No-one Knows the Mind of God . . . Except the Committed Atheist

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Fair warning to the regular readership.

Typically I like to cover intelligent design and evolution-related issues, but I trust I may be permitted a bit of a detour.  There have been a couple of interesting posts recently by Sal, vjtorley and Barry about issues of a more philosophical bent.  vjtorley’s OP, in particular, quoted parts of an essay from Professor Jerry Coyne.  I would like today to share some thoughts on point.

With apologies to those not of the Judeo-Christian tradition, my comments will focus in part on the Bible, given that the Bible and the God of the Bible have been the brunt of many new atheist attacks recently, including Coyne’s.  Similar points, no doubt, could be made with respect to other religious traditions.

In Coyne’s Atheism of the Gaps essay, he says:

There are huge gaps in believers’ understanding of God, and in those lacunae, I claim, lies strong evidence for No God. Here are some of those religious gaps:

  • Why would the Abrahamic God, all-loving and all-powerful, allow natural evils to torment and kill people? Why can’t he keep kids from getting cancer? How did the Holocaust fit into God’s scheme?

  • Why, if God wants us to know and accept him so much, does he hide himself from humanity?

  • Why would an omnibenevolent God consign sinners to an eternity of horrible torment for crimes that don’t warrant that? (In fact, no crimes do!). The official Catholic doctrine, for instance, is that unconfessed homosexual acts doom you to an eternity of immolation in molten sulfur. And would the Christian God really let someone burn forever because they were Jews, or didn’t get baptized?

  • Why is God in the Old Testament such a jerk, toying with people for his amusement, ordering genocides in which women and children are killeden masse, and allowing she-bears to kill a pack of kids just for making fun of a prophet’s baldness? How does that comport with the God worshipped today?

  • Why didn’t Jesus return during his followers’ lifetime, as he promised?

JWTruthInLove @23 in that thread provides a number of responses, which are worth reviewing.  He is being perhaps a bit sarcastic, but several of his statements are perfectly reasonable responses to Coyne’s list.

Coyne’s thinks he finds “strong evidence for no God.”  Yet his argument, when we cut through the clutter, is essentially as follows:

1. God, if He existed, would be like X.

2. Evidence shows God is not like X.

3. Therefore, God does not exist.

We can argue specific evidence under #2, and in many cases this is a useful approach because the alleged evidence is not quite what it claims to be.  Yet the first foundational question for Coyne’s Atheism of the Gaps worldview should be: On what basis do you think God is like X?

What Do I Think God Should Be Like?

This exchange highlights the fact that the anti-religious zealot so often approaches the matter with a very concrete God in mind, a concept of how they think God should be (if only there were such a being).  Then when the facts don’t seem to align with that superficial and hypothetical image they have created in their own minds, they proclaim that God must not exist.

In this particular case, for example, Coyne’s complaints mirror the usual grievances that have been leveled against Deity since the beginning:

Why is life hard?

Why is there suffering?

Why doesn’t God just save everybody instead of condemning some to punishment?

Why doesn’t God give me a sign instead of making me exercise faith?

Why does God make me pass through trials and tribulations in life, like having to do my own taxes, rather than doing them for me?

And on and on . . .

Coyne’s list is not novel, nor even particularly intellectually challenging.  It is essentially another in the long tradition of “arguments from evil” against the existence of God.  The argument from evil has been dealt with in detail by numerous capable authors in many writings, so I need not recap, but will just highlight one particular point.

It is a mystery – Coyne doesn’t specify (unless he is willing to confess to a personal revelation he received from God) – why Coyne would think that, say, the God of the Bible is primarily concerned that everyone be happy all the time, that life be a carefree paradise, that there be no suffering, that we should be beat over the head with signs instead of exercising faith, that our modern sensibilities should match up with ancient cultures, that life should even be fair, that God should be primarily interested in our temporary earthly comfort rather than in teaching us lessons and our more long-term salvation.

This isn’t to say I don’t identify with any of his complaints.

It is quite true – and to this extent I empathize with the atheist inquiry – that the Bible (the Old Testament, really) contains all manner of material that we would deem shocking, repulsive, abhorrent, outrageous, unfair, and even cruel if it were to occur today.  I’ve been re-reading the Old Testament myself the past few months and on more than one occasion have had the fleeting thought: “I’m not sure if I want my kids reading this stuff!”  Sometimes it is difficult to tell whether we are reading a passage from the Old Testament or the Police Blotter from yesterday’s newspaper.

Now, it is also true that much in the Old Testament can be better understood if we take time to learn about the cultures and the times, a task so many Biblical critics seem loathe to undertake.  Nevertheless, based on some of the incidents as reported in the Old Testament, I can understand – indeed, even empathize with – the sentiment that “Hey, if that is what God is like, then I don’t want anything to do with it.”

But it simply doesn’t follow from that revulsion, from that rejection of that kind of God, from our desire for a gentler Being that meets with our personal expectations – it simply doesn’t follow from all of this that God doesn’t exist.  So the conclusion that is reached doesn’t follow logically from the evidence – even if the evidence is taken at its absolute worst.

More importantly, for the believer, such an approach also fails to take into account all of the evidence on the other side of the coin: the many accounts in the Bible of tenderness and love and protection and guidance and divine assistance; the culture and practices of the times; evidence for the existence of a creator in the history of the cosmos and life; the “more excellent way” that was subsequently shown through Christ; the tradition of service to our fellow-beings that is taught repeatedly and forcefully in holy writ; the personal divine spiritual experiences that many people have experienced in their own lives even today.

Thus, the atheist rejection of God, based on the cruelties in the Old Testament, or the many challenges and difficulties of life generally, is, in addition to its logical flaws, a move based on a very limited survey of the evidence, a move based on a failure to consider the broader picture, a move based on a myopic blindness to many of the facts, rather than (as the atheist smugly pats himself on the back and loudly proclaims) an objective analysis of all the evidence.

Against this backdrop, one might be forgiven for considering the possibility that the vocal atheist is motivated more by a desire to grind his philosophical axe than by a desire to objectively review all the evidence at hand.

The Great Irony

All of this leads to one of the great ironies in the debate about the existence of God:

No-one seems so cock-sure of exactly what God is like, exactly what God’s characteristics are, exactly how to understand God, than the anti-religious zealot.  He is convinced he knows just how God is and how God should act in particular situations . . . if, of course, such a being existed.

In ironic contrast, those who believe God actually exists take seriously the scriptural caution that “my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways” (Isaiah 55:8).  Such individuals recognize that we do not understand everything, but that there is, in the striving, a process of becoming and growing and learning.  That the very essence of life eternal (a goal not yet obtained by the believing mortal, but nevertheless obtainable at some future point) is to come to truly know God (John 17:3).

As a result, the believer is ever striving to learn what God is like and to submit his will to the Divine will in particular circumstances.  In contrast, the anti-religious zealot is convinced he knows exactly what God is like and what God would do – and should do – in those particular circumstances.  The anti-religious zealot, in decrying God’s actions and loudly proclaiming what God should or should not do, attempts to assume the role of the omniscient and demands: “Not Thy will, but mine be done.”

And so, the great irony persists:

The committed atheist is convinced he knows the mind of God.  The believer acknowledges he doesn’t, at least not fully, not yet today.  The committed atheist thinks he has already arrived at the pinnacle of knowledge about God.  The believer realizes he has not, but trusts that in submitting his will to the Divine he can, one day, come to truly know God.

Comments
I wonder if the great Prof. Felsenstein will be brave enough to bring his junk DNA and bad design argument over to this side, instead of hiding at skepticalzone. Exactly how much junk DNA does his theory predict, and how much do we need to show is not junk before his prediction is incorrect? Will they always just keep moving the goalposts, the more that we find is not junk?phoodoo
April 28, 2014
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Evolve, There is evidence both for a God and for intervention in life-its just not the evidence you want. And yet the evidence is much stronger than the evidence you have for evolution being a completely random occurrence of accidents. Organization within a cell is evidence. Fine tuning of the world and of nature is evidence. The existence of any laws at all in the universe, rather than chaos or simply nothing. is evidence of intelligence. All these evidences just don't impress someone who wants to not consider it, but its still stronger than the evidence you can list for your theory.phoodoo
April 28, 2014
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This is flawed reasoning. Just because we have seen humans intelligently designing objects doesn’t automatically imply natural designs are the product of a fictitious supernatural designer.
First, please note how you have rigged your response by calling anything in question a "natural design". If you want honest, productive debate, you should refrain from simply asserting your conclusion in your response. Let's call the item under debate "X-design". Second, I didn't claim anything about the "designer" except to imply that whatever was responsible for X-design is better explained as an intelligent process. I made no claims that X-designer was fictitious. Or supernatural. You might leave the dismissive invective out of debates you wish to advance beyond mere name-calling.
We need evidence for the existence of such a designer and why and how he went about doing it.
Not for an initial finding that X-design is better explained by some sort of intelligent process. Your reasoning here is flawed; why would anyone start looking for a designer, or start trying to figure out how a designer designed a thing, unless they first reached at least a tentative conclusion that the X-design in question likely was the result of an intelligent process? You've got the cart before the horse. ID is about making that initial finding, and is not necessarily about figuring out who the designer is or how they accomplished the design. Those investigations can only come after one is fairly convinced the thing in question was designed by intelligence in the first place.
After all, man-made objects do not grow, metabolize, reproduce or evolve on their own, but living things do all that by themselves. We are yet to observe any supernatural intervention in a tree developing from a seed or a human baby developing from a zygote.
I think you are making the same mistake so many have made before you; ID doesn't make any claims about the supernatural. The fundamental disagreement ID has with Darwinistic evolution is not "natural vs supernatural" but "natural vs artifice". You might want to peruse the FAQ provided here before you make more errors from a fundamental misconception about what ID is and claims.William J Murray
April 28, 2014
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awstar @11: But, but, but . . . That requires hard work, requires me to set aside my personal views and desires and selfish ambitions and submit my will to God's. Why can't everything just be easy? Why can't I do what I want, instead of what God wants me to do, and still get the same reward? :) You have well stated that the salvation is there for all who will accept it with full heart. Some seem to want the salvation to be there for everyone, without condition, without effort, without sincere desire.Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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Given that many atheists seems to be promoters of Utilitarianism, which, ironically enough, would require a practical omniscience to be effective and an accurate knowledge of what the 'greater good' is if there even is such a thing, I find the arguments from Utilitarian atheists to be especially interesting considering that I don't understand why they seem so adverse to God, if such a being existed, since such a being is the ultimate realization of Utilitarianism, perhaps even, what they wish themselves to be.VunderGuy
April 28, 2014
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sagebrush gardener @7: You raise an important issue. And this is an area (yet another) in which I empathize with the atheist complaint. There are things taught from time to time that are not consistent with logic or scripture. Those can do much damage over the long haul. In talking about how to respond to critics' questions, a quote I heard once may be apropos: "The truth is better served by silence than by a bad answer."Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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The “God, if He existed, would not be like X” formulation makes no claim, at all, about what God is other than “not X”: there is no claim to know the mind of God.
It does make a positive claim about God. You have to know something about God in order to say that "God would not be like X". How do you know that? What source of information did you use to determine that God would not be like that? The question that is being answered is "why would God cause suffering"? To say that God would not do something requires, by inference, some understanding of the mind of God.
Cop 1: The suspect was in a hollow and would have had to be ten foot tall to reach the murder weapon. He is not ten foot tall so he did not commit the crime. Cop 2: So how tall is he? Cop 1: I don’t know. Cop 2: Victory!
Cop 1 is not being fully truthful there. He should have said, "he is less than 10 feet tall". Notice the positive statement about the suspect there. That's the point of this post. People who claim that God does not exist, also make claims about what God wouldn't do. Clearly, they would need some evidence to know what God would or wouldn't do. But they don't admit having any evidence at all.Silver Asiatic
April 28, 2014
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Thanks, Optimus, Barb, and Dionosio. Truly there are many events reported in the Bible that God did not approve of (in many cases explicitly, in some cases implicitly). In fairness to the atheist revulsion to the God of the Bible though, I think the primary things that give them pause are things that God did approve of, or did sanction, or even commanded. Barb briefly discussed an example @12. But again, it doesn't follow from those events that God doesn't exist. ---- What I would say, where I empathize with the atheist concern and where I might differ from some believers, is in being willing to acknowledge the following: 1. If a believer believes that the Bible completely and accurately recorded events as they happened, including God's involvement as recorded. and 2. If the believer also espouses ideas about God similar to those regularly put forward by non-believing critics: namely, God is always kind, would not hurt anyone, would not condone killing under any circumstances, would not inflict plagues, famines, or other harsh punishment, etc. then, 3. Such a believer is being logically inconsistent. This is true enough, so I agree that a person should abandon, in part, either #1 or #2. I don't happen to be a Biblical literalist. Furthermore, I am quite willing to accept the idea that the Bible -- inspired and wonderful as it is -- was written, transmitted, translated, and assembled by fallible human beings. So I am willing to go part way (a small way) toward a different view of #1. However, I think the primary issue is with #2. The anti-religious zealot tends to think he has an excellent idea of what God would or would not do in particular circumstances. Thus, when an event transpires that conflicts with the imagined "permitted" acts of God, it shows that God was not involved. Again, it doesn't show that there is no God, but it does raise a legitimate question about God's involvement in that event, as described in the Bible. However, when the believer sees the same set of circumstances he doesn't jump to the logical conclusion (God wasn't involved), or to the illogical conclusion, a la Coyne (therefore, God doesn't exist). Rather, the humble believer will ask: "Why would God do this or allow this to happen? Is there something else going on? Is there a higher purpose or a more long-term view on display than the immediate event itself? What do I need to change in my own thinking in order to understand the Divine goals and purposes?" Those kinds of questions.Eric Anderson
April 28, 2014
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William Murray, ///We know there is a difference between what an intelligence can deliberately bring into existence, and what known natural forces and materials – for all intents and purposes – cannot. /// This is flawed reasoning. Just because we have seen humans intelligently designing objects doesn't automatically imply natural designs are the product of a fictitious supernatural designer. We need evidence for the existence of such a designer and why and how he went about doing it. After all, man-made objects do not grow, metabolize, reproduce or evolve on their own, but living things do all that by themselves. We are yet to observe any supernatural intervention in a tree developing from a seed or a human baby developing from a zygote.Evolve
April 28, 2014
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tjguy said:
William seems to reject the God of the Bible for the same reason.
To be fair I've read interpretations of the Bible where "hell" is considered more along the lines of my own thought - the potential for self-annihilation, not eternal suffering. I have come to an satisfied understanding about the nature of the world, even under a Christian outlook. Suffering in the world, even by children, is not a dissatisfying mystery to me. Neither are natural calamities or wars. However, I cannot rationally accept command morality; a thing is not made moral, IMO, because god commands it, and some things cannot be moral even if they are argued to be the nature of God itself. IMO, eternal suffering after any denial of god, or choice to refuse salvation, or 80 years of bad behavior, with no chance at redemption, parole or relief cannot be moral in any way that I can accept.William J Murray
April 28, 2014
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Sorry, I meant to address that to Evolve, not Mr. Anderson.William J Murray
April 28, 2014
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Eric says:
Nevertheless, based on some of the incidents as reported in the Old Testament, I can understand – indeed, even empathize with – the sentiment that “Hey, if that is what God is like, then I don’t want anything to do with it.”
William seems to reject the God of the Bible for the same reason. We can all sympathize with this line of reasoning for sure. I think this argument has a lot of power to sway people towards atheism or at least to turn their hearts away from God to other gods or philosophies. At the same time, there are a lot of passages in the OT that speak about about God's goodness, love, and mercy! So for the biblical writers, it seems there was no conflict about this. They saw God as both Holy(hating all sin and evil) and Just( having to punish sin) as well as merciful and loving. I think they had a better understanding of God's holiness and justice than we do. Remember Isaiah's response to his vision of a holy God enthroned in glory in his temple? He said "Woe is me for I am an unclean man". He saw the depth of his sin for the very first time and he feared for his life. He knew he was worthy of death; that he deserved to die for his sins. No debate or argument from him about that. It is only us 20 & 21st century people who argue with this. I think there a number of reasons for this. 1) We don't want to believe in a God who judges sin like that. It is one reason many doubt the flood of Noah. 2. We don't realize how sinful we really are. Most people think they are good people. We are like the Pharisees and get offended by someone calling us "sinners". 3. And even if we do admit our sin, most of us have no idea how much God hates sin. This is actually the proper attitude to have toward sin! - yet we criticize God for that. We don't realize how serious our sin is or how big of a problem it is. In fact sometimes we want to hold on to our sin! We are so used to imperfection and sin in our world and even our own lives that it doesn't seem like a very big deal to us, so God's judgment seems extra harsh. Perhaps if we could see sin from the perspective of a holy and just God, we might be able to understand a lot easier! The instances of God's judgment stand out to us, but actually God is very long suffering. The Bible clearly says that God doesn't take any pleasure in judging sinners. He would much rather that we repent, receive forgiveness and eternal life. In fact, that is the very reason He sent His only Son! Not to condemn us but to save all who chose to believe - which is His first desire. For as many years as the OT covers, there really aren't that many instances of judgment. Long suffering and patience is the norm, but there are limits to His patience. How can God allow young kids to die, calamities to occur, etc.? I don't believe we can fully answer this question, but as to the question of why God allows evil, I think we can say that we are glad He does. Why? Because you and I have hearts that are full of evil(according to God's standards)! So if He were to eliminate evil, we would all be killed. I seriously doubt this is what atheists desire or think He should do! Then there is the fact of sin ruining a perfect world. This is a biblical truth that does not fit with ID theory which makes it more vulnerable to charges of bad design and an evil God, than is creationism. Anyway, it was the sin of Adam that invited God's punishment for sin. Adam's sin, for which we too are responsible, was the cause of death entering this world. So in some senses all suffering is due to our sin. What ought to amaze us then, is NOT that God judges sin, but rather that He allows us sinful rebellious ungrateful lovers of self to live at all! He could just condemn us all and still be totally just, but He instead He found a way to remain just and also to forgive sin. He poured out the full brunt of His righteous anger against sin on His only beloved Son! God Himself took our punishment for us! If He didn't spare His own Son, certainly He cannot pardon any of us "righteous" humans either. His judgment at times may seem too harsh. I can't fully answer that, but I will trust that the God of all the earth will never do anything wrong. So if eternal punishment is deemed by Him to by proper, I will trust Him, realizing my own inability to understand my own sinfulness and my inability to fully understand His holiness.tjguy
April 28, 2014
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Eric Anderson, God may be an unknown and unknowable commodity; intelligence, however, is not. We know there is a difference between what an intelligence can deliberately bring into existence, and what known natural forces and materials - for all intents and purposes - cannot. Finding the earmarks of intelligent design is not an "unknown" or "unknowable" endeavor. Whether or not one would call that intelligence "god" depends on other, personal, metaphysical commitments.William J Murray
April 28, 2014
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Eric Anderson, This is exactly why God is useless for explaining nature. God is such an unknown commodity that theists like you can attribute literally anything to him! There's nothing that would disprove God - be it evil, suffering or whatever. No matter how convincing the evidence for a natural account, you can still say that's how God did it. For example, life shows strong evidence of having evolved from a common ancestor. But theists try to get around that by claiming that's how God wanted to do it and who are we to question it? But this strategy makes God a redundant explanation. If you can already explain something by natural means, then why invoke a God for which no evidence exists? If nature is God's handiwork, how will you ever distinguish between a natural process and a supernatural process perpetrated by God? Unless you can define God and propose how we could test his existence and his modus operandi, it is a useless argument. God is a non-explanation.Evolve
April 28, 2014
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Imago Dei http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-image-of-godDionisio
April 28, 2014
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I understand the zealotry, anger and bitterness of many of these self-described "atheists". I've been there. I think, however, they are foolishly throwing away - as I did - the necessary baby (theism) with what they see as the dirty bathwater (some aspects of Christianity). I think they are right to dismiss what are two irreconcilable perspectives presented by mainstream Christianity: (1) all-loving god, and (2) eternal suffering in hell. I think they are wrong in using that as a justification for abandoning theism altogether. There are other conceptualizations of god - even a Christian god - than the one that these atheists have chosen to clutch to their breast to facilitate their hatred.William J Murray
April 28, 2014
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Yet his argument, when we cut through the clutter, is essentially as follows: 1. God, if He existed, would be like X. 2. Evidence shows God is not like X. 3. Therefore, God does not exist. Why expressed like this? We could express the argument as: 1. God, if He existed, would not be like X. 2. Evidence shows God is like X. 3. Therefore, God does not exist The arguments look much the same and are both valid. But to say that “x is” makes a very different type of claim than and “x is not”. To say, for example, that someone is 5 foot 10 inches is also to say that they are not, 5 foot 4, of infinite height or of no height. To say though that someone is not 5 foot ten inches says nothing about whether or not they are 5 foot 4, of infinite height or of no height. The one (“x is”) makes an infinite number of claims, the other (“x is not”) makes just the one. The “God, if He existed, would not be like X” formulation makes no claim, at all, about what God is other than “not X”: there is no claim to know the mind of God. "When we cut through the clutter of" your argument is it not along the lines of: Cop 1: The suspect was in a hollow and would have had to be ten foot tall to reach the murder weapon. He is not ten foot tall so he did not commit the crime. Cop 2: So how tall is he? Cop 1: I don't know. Cop 2: Victory!Tony Lloyd
April 28, 2014
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Eric writes,
It is quite true – and to this extent I empathize with the atheist inquiry – that the Bible (the Old Testament, really) contains all manner of material that we would deem shocking, repulsive, abhorrent, outrageous, unfair, and even cruel if it were to occur today.
The logical error committed by atheists in reading the OT is confusing what the Bible records with what the Bible condones. My local newspaper reports murders, rapes, and robberies; does that mean that the editor(s) approve of such things? No, of course not. The same is true of the Bible: it records what happened and when, but it does not condone such actions. RalphDavidWestfall adds,
For example, consider Numbers 31 in which all the captured young boys were to be killed. The sheep, goats, oxen, and donkeys were to be divided up as spoils of war. The young girls were also divided up in a very similar fashion. To me that’s inconsistent with human beings being created in the image of God.
Numbers 31 refers to the Israelites waging war against Midian. The reason behind this is that the Midianites manifested hostility toward the Israelites. They cooperated with the Moabites in hiring the prophet Balaam to curse Israel. (Nu 22:4-7) When this failed, the Midianites and Moabites, at Balaam’s advice, cunningly used their women to induce thousands of Israelite males to become involved in sexual immorality and idolatry in connection with Baal of Peor. (Nu 25:1-9, 14-18; 31:15, 16; 1Co 10:8; Re 2:14) Thereafter the Israelites, in obedience to divine command, took vengeance upon Midian. The Midianite cities and walled camps in the area were consigned to the fire. Thousands of domestic animals and many gold articles were taken as spoils. With the exception of the virgins, all, including the five kings of Midian—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—were put to death.—Nu 31. In the battle with Midian, the Israelites preserved alive only virgins from among the women and girls. (Nu 31:3, 18, 35) The Law allowed for the taking of a wife from among such parentless female war captives. (De 21:10-14) Within the Promised Land itself God’s warning concerning marriage alliances with pagans was often ignored, with resulting problems and apostasy.—Jg 3:5, 6.Barb
April 28, 2014
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Why doesn’t God just save everybody instead of condemning some to punishment?
The God of the Bible did make a way to save everybody. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Pardon for sin is available to whosoever believes Jesus Christ was sent to die for the forgiveness of sin, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. (see 1 Corinthains 15) He did save everybody, but only those who want the pardon get the pardon. Those who don't believe remain condemned and will endure punishment -- not because of their sin -- but because they rejected the free pardon He bought for them.awstar
April 28, 2014
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This is an important statement that I've been espousing for as long as I've been a dedicated Christian. Very well articulated Eric. I do somewhat agree (when speaking of the Christian faith)with Sagebrush @7, in that some congregations have lost the spirit of what worship should be and have turned God into some kind of wish-granter. However, the atheist often chooses to remain ignorant and attack this caricature of the wish-granting Abrahamic God rather than attempt to understand anything.TSErik
April 28, 2014
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In the following sermon I watched last night:
How Jesus Enters Your Life with Pastor Steve Adams https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lW7zzr_vGL8#t=1003
Pastor Steve Adams at the 17:10 minute mark of the sermon stated,,,
Our difficulties in life, the obstacles, they produce the character traits that are necessary for us to live a fruitful, productive, Christian life. But a lot of times, I don't want to go through what is necessary to gain those character traits. I rather God just insert them in me. It's like going through a spiritual drive-thru. Wouldn't that be cool? If you could drive through a drive-thru and they would say, "Welcome to spiritual growth, how can I help you please?". "Yeah, I would like patience and grace but I need you to hold the tribulation. Thank you." No it doesn't work that way.,,,
As well, in the following sermon I watched yesterday morning, Frank Turek had a good point on free will and evil at the 40:37 minute mark of the video:
Was Jesus Intolerant? with Dr. Frank Turek - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kESK1KSMPgQ#t=2437
Or consider the following attitude from Paul, who was imprisoned and often beaten for his faith: Verse:
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
Indeed there is cost for everything in this life that is worth having. Why should we think that the treasures of eternity should come without any costs? God himself knew, before he created us, or even before He created the universe, that creating free-will creatures in His image, creatures to which he could have a true loving relationship with, would cost Him dearly,,
Revelation 13:8 ",,the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Yet God, much like a young man about to be married, thought that loving relationship he would receive, well worth any cost he could pay. Music:
Mandisa - Esther - Born For This - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxFCber4TDo
Supplemental Notes:
Forensic evidence of the Shroud of Turin – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5QEsaNiMVc Detailed Forensic Evidence of The Shroud - video Excerpt: "it is definitely an anatomically and forensically correct depiction of a victim of a Roman crucifixion." http://www.shroud-enigma.com/wall_1/autopsy/turin-shroud-forensic-pathology.html Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=J21MECNU Solid Oval Object Under The Beard http://shroud3d.com/findings/solid-oval-object-under-the-beard
bornagain77
April 28, 2014
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Atheism is a form of mental illness. They "...live short, selfish, stunted little lives – often childless – before they approach hopeless death in despair, and their worthless corpses are chucked in a trench...". "...the evidence today implies that atheism is a form of mental illness. And this is because science is showing that the human mind is hard-wired for faith: we have, as a species, evolved to believe, which is one crucial reason why believers are happier – religious people have all their faculties intact, they are fully functioning humans." "Therefore, being an atheist – lacking the vital faculty of faith – should be seen as an affliction, and a tragic deficiency: something akin to blindness. Which makes Richard Dawkins the intellectual equivalent of an amputee, furiously waving his stumps in the air, boasting that he has no hands." - Sean Thomas http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100231060/are-atheists-mentally-ill/ Atheism doesn't need to be understood, it needs to be treated.humbled
April 28, 2014
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That many atheists have a childish perception of what God should be like is not entirely their own fault. Sunday schools are full of posters showing a smiling Caucasian Jesus surrounded by puppies, butterflies, and a racially and gender-diverse mix of happy young children. A simplistic, sanitized, sugar-coated "gospel" is fed to children and difficult questions are ignored or dismissed with trite, unsatisfying answers. When the children grow up they struggle with the fact that reality is much more difficult and complicated than that. Some suppress their doubts under a veneer of piety. Others go on to grapple seriously with their questions and find that Christians through the ages have endured the same struggles and labored to come to terms with the enigmas and paradoxes of their faith. And others turn their backs on what they see only as childish stories that they have outgrown. They go on to become atheists, despising the insipid religiosity they grew up with and believing that all Christians subscribe to an irrational blind faith in pious nonsense.sagebrush gardener
April 28, 2014
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We really don't know the source of most of the Bible. Reference Bibles typically say that the authorships of given books are traditionally ascribed to certain people. Many scholars see the books as originating through some kind of cumulative authorship involving oral tradition and different scribes over time. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed," but does not explicitly lay out the boundaries of "all scripture." I'm not aware of any specific Biblical revelation as to appropriate processes for identifying what is to be included in that category. The New Testament authors used the Septuagint translation, but that doesn't conclusively establish that all of it is to be considered canonical. Protestants generally don't recognize parts of the Septuagint not included in the Hebrew canon. The contents of the New Testament were finalized by the Western church around the fifth century, although the Book of Revelation had substantially less than unanimous support for inclusion. However not all branches of Christianity agree on all the books. There is a claim that all scripture is "inerrant" in the original manuscripts, but it isn't possible to know the content of the original manuscripts. Taking all the above, I pick and choose. Things that appear to be consistent with an all-good God I accept as being part of divine revelation. Regarding parts that don't seem to be consistent with that attribute, I consider them to either not be divinely sourced, or that possibly there is something about them that I really don't understand. I don't look to them for guidance. For example, consider Numbers 31 in which all the captured young boys were to be killed. The sheep, goats, oxen, and donkeys were to be divided up as spoils of war. The young girls were also divided up in a very similar fashion. To me that's inconsistent with human beings being created in the image of God.RalphDavidWestfall
April 27, 2014
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The Bible does not sugarcoat the reality of the human nature or this world. On the contrary, it depicts people and their actions exactly as they were and still are. There's no other document of any kind, where we can see a better description of our human nature. Also, the Bible is the only document that accurately reveals the true character of God to us. This is the book that has been more criticized and attacked in human history. This is the only book that has directly or indirectly led more people to the saving faith in Christ. This is the only source of true wisdom available to us. These are some of the many evidences that confirm that the Bible is the most amazing compilation of books ever written.Dionisio
April 27, 2014
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From the OP:
It is quite true – and to this extent I empathize with the atheist inquiry – that the Bible (the Old Testament, really) contains all manner of material that we would deem shocking, repulsive, abhorrent, outrageous, unfair, and even cruel if it were to occur today. I’ve been re-reading the Old Testament myself the past few months and on more than one occasion have had the fleeting thought: “I’m not sure if I want my kids reading this stuff!” Sometimes it is difficult to tell whether we are reading a passage from the Old Testament or the Police Blotter from yesterday’s newspaper.
Coincidentally, I was finishing up the book of Judges today - in particular the account about the Benjaminite city of Gibeah and the rape (and murder) of a concubine. It is most certainly a distressing account - shocking, saddening, and tragic. But I've found it helpful to bear in mind that while Scripture often records tragic events, these often are not a reflection of God's view of a given situation. Somewhat analogously, that a newspaper may report on a tragedy clearly doesn't necessitate endorsement.Optimus
April 27, 2014
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Interesting OP, Eric. Your point about the unreasonable certainty of some atheists regarding the nature of God is well taken. I heard a similar point made today on an ID podcast. Stephen Webb made a keen observation about the peculiar similarity exhibited by theistic evolutionists and atheistic ID-critics - a tendency to resort to theological arguments that hinge on a dogmatic certainty about how God would and wouldn't, should and shouldn't act. If you watched the Meyer-Giberson debate, the phenomenon was on full display in many of Giberson's comments about the 'nastiness' of nature (I think he used the famous "red in tooth and claw" line). P.S. Just in case there is ever any confusion, JWTruthInLove does not speak in any official capacity for the organization ostensibly referenced in his moniker. His comments are his own.Optimus
April 27, 2014
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Eric, thank you for this OP.Dionisio
April 27, 2014
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Great reply! Thank you.OldArmy94
April 27, 2014
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