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Philosopher exposes neo-Darwinian Daniel Dennett: Claims “so preposterous as to verge on the deranged”

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David Bentley Hart at The New Atlantis. “The Illusionist” is a longish essay, reviewing Daniel Dennett’s Bacteria to Bach and Back. Read it all but here are some highlights:

In a sense, the entire logic of From Bacteria to Bach and Back (though not, of course, all the repetitious details) could be predicted simply from Dennett’s implicit admission on page 364 that no philosopher of mind before Descartes is of any consequence to his thinking. The whole pre-modern tradition of speculation on the matter — Aristotle, Plotinus, the Schoolmen, Ficino, and so on — scarcely qualifies as prologue. And this means that, no matter how many times he sets out, all his journeys can traverse only the same small stretch of intellectual territory. After all, Descartes was remarkable not because, as Dennett claims, his vision was especially “vivid and compelling” — in comparison to the subtleties of earlier theories, it was crude, bizarre, and banal — but simply because no one before him had attempted systematically to situate mental phenomena within a universe otherwise understood as a mindless machine. It was only thus that the “problem” of the mental was born.

In the end, Dennett’s approach has remained largely fixed. Rather than a sequence of careful logical arguments, his method remains, as ever, essentially fabulous: That is, he constructs a grand speculative narrative, comprising a disturbing number of sheer assertions, and an even more disturbing number of missing transitions between episodes. It is often quite a beguiling tale, but its power of persuasion lies in its sprawling relentlessness rather than its cogency. Then again, to be fair, it is at least consistent in its aims. No less than the ancient Aristotelian model of reality, Dennett’s picture is meant to be one in which nature and mind are perfectly congruent with one another, and in which, therefore, the post-Cartesian dilemma need never rear its misshapen head.

And that — though agonizingly protracted over several hundred pages — is the tale Dennett tells. Were it not for a half-dozen or so explanatory gaps, some of which are positively abyssal in size, it would no doubt amount to something more than just a ripping yarn. But, as it stands, it is nonsense.

Yes, nonsense. But we will not understand our times unless we grasp that this sort of nonsense sells! And little else does.

Daniel Dennett 2.jpg
Daniel Dennett/Dmitri Rozhkov, Creative Commons

Dennett is known for claiming that Darwinism is the single greatest idea anyone ever had. It made him a hit among talk show hosts, celebs, and science writers. Easy, agreeable nonsense, suited to their intellectual capacities and aspirations.

But, alas, his story does not hold together. Some of the problems posed by mental phenomena Dennett simply dismisses without adequate reason; others he ignores. Most, however, he attempts to prove are mere “user-illusions” generated by evolutionary history, even though this sometimes involves claims so preposterous as to verge on the deranged.

Not to worry, Big Pharma is bringing out a pill for those times when naturalists worry that nonsense might be a problem. Dennett is best known for claiming that consciousness is a user illusion, like the icons on a computer screen. Hart replies,

The entire notion of consciousness as an illusion is, of course, rather silly. Dennett has been making the argument for most of his career, and it is just abrasively counterintuitive enough to create the strong suspicion in many that it must be more philosophically cogent than it seems, because surely no one would say such a thing if there were not some subtle and penetrating truth hidden behind its apparent absurdity. But there is none. The simple truth of the matter is that Dennett is a fanatic: He believes so fiercely in the unique authority and absolutely comprehensive competency of the third-person scientific perspective that he is willing to deny not only the analytic authority, but also the actual existence, of the first-person vantage. At the very least, though, he is an intellectually consistent fanatic, inasmuch as he correctly grasps (as many other physical reductionists do not) that consciousness really is irreconcilable with a coherent metaphysical naturalism. Since, however, the position he champions is inherently ridiculous, the only way that he can argue on its behalf is by relentlessly, and in as many ways as possible, changing the subject whenever the obvious objections are raised.

For what it is worth, Dennett often exhibits considerable ingenuity in his evasions — so much ingenuity, in fact, that he sometimes seems to have succeeded in baffling even himself…

But ingenuity in evasions wouldn’t diminish Dennett’s popularity among those who Stand For Science, would it? They’re all evading the problem of the invasion of post-modernism in science, looking for irrelevant causes and parties to blame.

Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it. But this confusion is entirely typical of Dennett’s position. In this book, as he has done repeatedly in previous texts, he mistakes the question of the existence of subjective experience for the entirely irrelevant question of the objective accuracy of subjective perceptions, and whether we need to appeal to third-person observers to confirm our impressions. But, of course, all that matters for this discussion is that we have impressions at all.

David Bentley Hart
David Bentley Hart

Hart is right, of course, but the fact is, people with degrees think themselves clever for not grasping such an obvious fact. Maybe their ignorance is a rite of passage. It signals that they are truly In and can’t be attacked.

Certainly, if Dennett’s book encourages one to adopt any position at all, reason dictates that it be something like the exact reverse of the one he defends. The attempt to reduce the phenomena of mental existence to a purely physical history has been attempted before, and has so far always failed. But, after so many years of unremitting labor, and so many enormous books making wildly implausible claims, Dennett can at least be praised for having failed on an altogether majestic scale. More.

It’s hard to think of a more consummate takedown of the Darwinblather that infests public discussion of consciousness these days, frequently funded by skeptical but helpless taxpayers. But so? Dozens of elegant and worthless “consciousness is just a … ” essays are doubtless in the works, facing few objections.

Should we start by refusing to fund philosophy departments until they start addressing real issues instead of fronting lazy garbage for pop science writers at failing media?

See also: Thomas Nagel: Daniel Dennett “maintaining a thesis at all costs” in Bacteria to Bach and Back

Lots of elegant but futile essays about consciousness

Post-modern science: The illusion of consciousness sees through itself

Would we give up naturalism to solve the hard problem of consciousness?

Comments
Axel,
Your answer was evasive, but then you showed a knowledge of Bush minimus’ stake in the company that completely belied your apparent affectation of such ignorance. Are you close to the Bushes? Otherwise your interest seems to reflect a curious ambivalence.
I never claimed to be "ignorant" of these things. I spent/wasted many hours reading discussions of Sept 11 conspiracies on various forums in the 20-oughts, so I have run across quite a bit of this stuff. I'm not close to the Bushes (having never met any); in fact, I'm not particularly fond of them.
And you still unwilling to consult VT. I think you know it ‘from cover to cover’, and might even be employed to do so as part of your work. So, this must be a parting of the ways.
I did look at the website and found it to be unremarkable. Rather like a mashup of abovetopsecret and buzzfeed. FTR, I don't know the site well (likely have never seen it), and am not employed by anyone with an interest in it. Heh. :-)daveS
November 18, 2017
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Axel, FTR, I will volunteer that IMHO the notion that Sandy Hook was a false flag attack is preposterous. Excellent, Dave. I like that turn of phrase, too: 'I will volunteer....' A mite archaic, but in a rather grand way.Axel
November 18, 2017
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'Do you find it odd that, in order to disseminate your theories, you have to refer me to some middling website that supposedly has been deliberately salted with nonsense?' The short answer is: 'No. I don't find it in the least bit odd.' Mostly, because I am not in the least bit interested in 'disseminating "my" theories', but was prompted to ask you a question, in response to what struck me as an extraordinary display of disingenuousness by way of feigned ignorance. Your answer was evasive, but then you showed a knowledge of Bush minimus' stake in the company that completely belied your apparent affectation of such ignorance. Are you close to the Bushes? Otherwise your interest seems to reflect a curious ambivalence. And what about 'some "middling" website'? 'Middling' in what sense? You surely don't expect truth from the MSM, least of all concerning geopolitics. And you still unwilling to consult VT. I think you know it 'from cover to cover', and might even be employed to do so as part of your work. The Bushes would not be the prime-movers, would they ? They are a little subordinate to the Deep State, I believe, who would have been the prime-movers. Anyway, this must be a parting of the ways.Axel
November 18, 2017
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Axel,
Well, why don’t you read VT’s report, and critique i. It should be very easy for you to expose it as piffle, that actually rare bird, a ‘conspiracy theory.’ It’s not as if what I believe concerning these false-flags and VT’s analysis of them is contentious un your eyes: they are a joke. No less. You are sovereignly confident in your certainty, so why not go to the source and really dispose of its putatively-authoritative pabulum, among many peple who despise the MSM’ wall-to-wall, mendacious propaganda, once and for all.
I'm not interested in debunking conspiracy websites or even debating these issues in depth, to be honest. I gave that up years ago when I found it was like trying to nail jello to a wall.
It’s not just about individuals, but the much broader canvas of geopolitics, the so-called Great Game.
But these acts were perpetrated by individuals. GWB is either guilty or not guilty of murdering thousands of Americans. Adam Lanza either killed 26 people five years ago or he didn't. Crisis actors either exist or they don't. If your theories are true, then we have a very dangerous situation on our hands. Do you find it odd that, in order to disseminate your theories, you have to refer me to some middling website that supposedly has been deliberately salted with nonsense?daveS
November 18, 2017
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It's not just about individuals, but the much broader canvas of geopolitics, the so-called Great Game. I've just accidentally wiped a whole damned screed. PS: Incidentally, if you are on the level and consult the analyses of VT's experts - and they are experts - don't be put of by the unmistakably-flakey articles, which serve a purpose. I'm loathe to do more for you, if you won't help yourself. It's too labour-intensive, and shamefully derelict on your part that your 'take' on the whole topic is so resolutely superficial. Even 9/11 is a vast topic, but an intelligent man in worldly terms that I take you to be (within the limits of your secular-fundamentalist, materialist beliefs), shouldn't need a primer in false-flag atrocities, but be much better informed and, moreover, open to non-official info. More open to it. As regards these recent incidents, I believe only one of them is held to have been the work of a 'lone gunman-type 'nutter' - thougb I can't remember which. I don'teven bother with the names of tem any more. I know a recent one (f-f) was in Vegas, ther was one in Charlottesville, and at least one in Paris. Oh, and we've had, I think, at least a couple in the UK. A while back, a 'commenter' in the Guardian, writing from France, showed a photograph in an underground station involved, showing a man in front of a rail or some such. Only thing was, you could see the rail through his body. Photo-shopped.Axel
November 18, 2017
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Well, why don't you read VT's report, and critique i. It should be very easy for you to expose it as piffle, that actually rare bird, a 'conspiracy theory.' It's not as if what I believe concerning these false-flags and VT's analysis of them is contentious un your eyes: they are a joke. No less. You are sovereignly confident in your certainty, so why not go to the source and really dispose of its putatively-authoritative pabulum, among many peple who despise the MSM' wall-to-wall, mendacious propaganda, once and for all. It makes much more sense for you to go the primary source. I skim articles, and take away the gist. You want 'hard facts'. And rightly so.Axel
November 18, 2017
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Axel, FTR, I will volunteer that IMHO the notion that Sandy Hook was a false flag attack is preposterous.daveS
November 18, 2017
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Axel,
If you follow veteranstoday.com, daveS, they go into false-flags in some depth, and I believe only one was found to be the exclusive work of a genuine ‘nutter’; the others were ‘patsies’, just as Oswald was. In fact, though I haven’t yet looked at it, there is a website called False Flag, which I believe would have gone into them in great depth.
Would you care to name specific incidents that they found to be false flags? For example, what about Sandy Hook? Edit: Despite what I said above about not getting into a wide-ranging discussion, I am interested to know your opinion on some of these relatively recent "false flag" events.daveS
November 18, 2017
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Axel, I'd prefer not to get into a wide-ranging discussion of other events beyond Sept 11. For one thing, the JFK assassination was before my time, so I didn't experience it (through the media) as it occurred. I will simply say that I'm very confident that GWB and others in the Bush family did not conspire to bring about the events of Sept. 11. Anyone who disagrees must have a radically different understanding of the world than mine.daveS
November 18, 2017
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Who do you think was responsible for JFK's death, Dave?Axel
November 18, 2017
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If you follow veteranstoday.com, daveS, they go into false-flags in some depth, and I believe only one was found to be the exclusive work of a genuine 'nutter'; the others were 'patsies', just as Oswald was. In fact, though I haven't yet looked at it, there is a website called False Flag, which I believe would have gone into them in great depth. Interestingly, in terms of evidence, an Israeli photographer was photograpehd at the scene of a few of the 'terrorist' attacks - and I mean virtually 'on the spot', when they happened. If your really want to know - and I really don't think you do - at least read the coverage of the incidents by VeteransToday.Axel
November 18, 2017
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Axel,
Tell me why you think it would be unlikely, bearing in mind the other false-flag incidents – ongoing evidently at a local level in these ‘mad gunman’ shooting sprees – some of considerable magnitude, e.g. the ship incident used to justfy the invasion of Viet Nam,
1. I don't think GWB is the type of person who would murder thousands of Americans. 2. There's no plausible motive. What did he think he would gain? 3. Which of these "mad gunman" shooting sprees do you think were false flag attacks? I don't know of any that fit that description. Usually it's some mentally ill guy who flips out or a terrorist attack.daveS
November 16, 2017
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His actual role in the company is rather irrelevant, isn't it? An evasion, even. I would simply refer you to the veteranstoday.com online journal. It is a mixture, I believe, of inside information and madhouse nonsense - deliberately so. It should not be difficult to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Do you think Oswald was the lone gunman killer of JFK? Do you think Wellstone was just plum unlucky he died in that light aircraft ... one could go on an on, yet your question suggests that you are reluctant to join the dots concerning the cynicism of the US and, indeed, the UK governments, when it comes to liquidating individuals who threaten to stand in the way of their plans. Tell me why you think it would be unlikely, bearing in mind the other false-flag incidents - ongoing evidently at a local level in these 'mad gunman' shooting sprees - some of considerable magnitude, e.g. the ship incident used to justfy the invasion of Viet Nam,Axel
November 16, 2017
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Axel,
Did you know, DaveS, that Dubya’s younger brother was reported to own/have owned, at the time, the security company that sealed off the basement for two or three weeks before 9/11. Entry to the basements was prohibited.
Yes, I've heard statements that he was connected to the security company (but not that he owned it, which I doubt, since it was a publicly traded company). He was apparently on the board of directors from 1993 to 2000. Do you think it's likely that the Bushes conspired to take down the WTC?daveS
November 16, 2017
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Did you know, DaveS, that Dubya's younger brother was reported to own/have owned, at the time, the security company that sealed off the basement for two or three weeks before 9/11. Entry to the basements was prohibited. KF, loved that 'transcends'(below). Definitely 'le mot juste'. 'And, let us note, too, that the attempts to get to an emergent mind that somehow stands on the blind material order and transcends it are just as problematic.'Axel
November 16, 2017
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F/N3: Yet more, bringing out the self-refuting stance of evolutionary materialistic scientism. And, let us note, too, that the attempts to get to an emergent mind that somehow stands on the blind material order and transcends it are just as problematic. Clipping:
part of the problem bedeviling Dennett’s narrative is the difficulty of making a case that seems so hard to reconcile with quotidian experience. But that difficulty is only exacerbated by his fierce adherence to an early modern style of materialism, according to whose tenets there can be no aspect of nature not reducible to blind physical forces. For him, the mechanistic picture, or its late modern equivalent, is absolute; it is convertible with truth as such, and whatever appears to escape its logic can never be more than a monstrosity of the imagination. But then the conscious mind constitutes a special dilemma, since this modern picture was produced precisely by excluding all mental properties from physical nature. And so, in this case, physicalist reduction means trying to explain one particular phenomenon — uniquely among all the phenomena of nature — by realities that are, in qualitative terms, quite literally its opposite. Really, in this regard, we have progressed very little since Descartes’s day. The classical problems that mental events pose for physicalism remain as numerous and seemingly insoluble as ever. Before all else, there is the enigma of consciousness itself, and of the qualia (direct subjective impressions, such as color or tone) that inhabit it. There is simply no causal narrative — and probably never can be one — capable of uniting the phenomenologically discontinuous regions of “third-person” electrochemical brain events and “first-person” experiences, nor any imaginable science logically capable of crossing that absolute qualitative chasm. Then there is the irreducible unity of apprehension, without which there could be no coherent perception of anything at all, not even disjunctions within experience. As Kant among others realized, this probably poses an insuperable difficulty for materialism. It is a unity that certainly cannot be reduced to some executive material faculty of the brain, as this would itself be a composite reality in need of unification by some still-more-original faculty, and so on forever, and whatever lay at the “end” of that infinite regress would already have to possess an inexplicable prior understanding of the diversity of experience that it organizes. For, even if we accept that the mind merely represents the world to itself under an assortment of convenient fictions, this would involve a translation of sense data into specific perceptions and meanings; and translation requires a competence transcending the difference between the original “text” and its rendition. This problem, moreover, points toward the far more capacious and crucial one of mental intentionality as such — the mind’s pure directedness (such that its thoughts are about things), its interpretation of sense experience under determinate aspects and meanings, its movement toward particular ends, its power to act according to rationales that would appear nowhere within any inventory of antecedent physical causes. All of these indicate an irreducibly teleological structure to thought incongruous with a closed physical order supposedly devoid of purposive causality. Similarly, there is the problem of the semantic and syntactic structure of rational thought, whose logically determined sequences seem impossible to reconcile with any supposed sufficiency of the continuous stream of physical causes occurring in the brain. And then there is the issue of abstraction, and its necessary priority over sense experience — the way, for instance, that primordial and irreducible concepts of causality and of discrete forms are required for any understanding of the world of events around us, or the way some concept of resemblance must already be in place before one is able to note likenesses and unlikenesses between things, or even the way in which the bare concepts of Euclidean geometry permit us to recognize their imperfect analogues in nature. And then, also, there are those more than abstract — in fact, transcendental — orientations of the mind, such as goodness or truth or beauty in the abstract, which appear to underlie every employment of thought and will, and yet which correspond to no concrete objects within nature. And so on and so forth.
It looks extraordinarily like institutionally entrenched grand question-begging compounded by self-referential incoherence. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2017
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F/N2: More from Hart on Dennett:
Rather, however, than attempt to explain nature in terms of a “mind-like” order of rational relations, as Aristotelian tradition did, Dennett seeks to do very nearly the opposite: to reduce mind and nature alike to a computational system, which emerges from “uncomprehending competences,” as he calls them — small, particulate functions wholly unaware of the larger functions they accomplish in the aggregate — of the sort first fully understood by Alan Turing. And those functions, as retained, combined, and developed by the slow, diffident, mindless designing hand of natural selection, are — like the hugely intricate ensemble of discrete lines of code hiding behind the illusory simplicity of the icons on a computer’s screen — the real engines of everything that happens, hiding behind the phenomenal simplicity of perceptible nature. In Dennett’s telling, it is all very obvious: Under certain chemical and environmental conditions, life will emerge in time [--> notice the huge explanatory gap on the FSCO/I in OoL] and develop organisms [ --> Noticed the gap on explaining origin of body plans] with large brains [--> notice the gap on explaining brains with successful computational substrates including both hardware in some architecture and the software that makes it work right], and these organisms will of necessity be social organisms. And social organisms require mental activity to survive and flourish. For Dennett, all evolutionary developments occur because they incorporate useful adaptations. He has no patience for talk of “spandrels” — phenotypic traits that are supposedly not adaptations but byproducts of the evolution of other traits — or of large, inexplicable, fortuitous hypertrophies (such as, say, the sudden acquisition of language) that have no specific evolutionary rationale at all. So sanguine, in fact, is Dennett in his certainty that adaptive usefulness is sufficient explanation for why things happen that he often fails to consider whether the things that he claims have happened are, strictly speaking, possible. For him it seems evident that in the right circumstances, in time, natural selection will generate and preserve ever more competences without comprehension until, at some point of cumulative complexity, certain ensembles of those competences will become comprehension. Slowly, what we think of as self-awareness and reflective consciousness emerged from, and in fact remains wholly dependent upon, innumerable small, unconscious, discrete forces. Exactly how all of this happens, of course — how physical causality is wondrously inverted into phenomenal awareness — is never quite clear. But for Dennett, once again, the distinction between the useful and the possible is a hazy one at best. And in a sense it hardly matters, since even the appearance of rational conscious agency, as something in addition to or formally distinguishable from those tiny competences underlying it, is for Dennett only a useful illusion
Let us note: computation is not and can never amount to contemplation, it is a blindly mechanical process that is itself dependent on correct ordering of processing elements to achieve a reliable result, under the looming shadow of the GIGO principle: Garage in, garbage out. Here, we face the notion that noise and blind mechanism goes in and a sufficiently functional brain as processor somehow comes out, getting massive functionally specific complex organisation and associated information "for free." Never mind, the trillion member database of observation that tells us that such routinely arises by prior mind at work via intentionally directed configuration, and the search challenge in configuration spaces that once we go beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, becomes utterly implausible for the resources of our solar system or observed cosmos. No wonder we see the onward imagination of a quasi-infinite unobserved wider cosmos. And all along we must rely on that most abstract of disciplines, the logic of structure and quantity, as our handmaiden and guide. Mathematics. The bankruptcy of the scheme is obvious, but maybe the feeling is that some things are too big and important to be allowed to openly fail. Where, many are frightened of a world haunted by mind, especially ultimate Mind. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2017
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F/N: Time to look at the actual focal topic, which is highly important. Hart, on Dennett, from OP and onward his review of a new book:
Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it. But this confusion is entirely typical of Dennett’s position. In this book, as he has done repeatedly in previous texts, he mistakes the question of the existence of subjective experience for the entirely irrelevant question of the objective accuracy of subjective perceptions, and whether we need to appeal to third-person observers to confirm our impressions. But, of course, all that matters for this discussion is that we have impressions at all.
Yes, even self-evidently yes. Note too, an observation of how the problem of mind was manufactured by moving to a mechanistic picture of reality that opened the way for matter to try to gobble up mind, ending in the shipwreck of self-referential incoherence:
The modern scientific novum organum — as Francis Bacon dubbed the new rationality that he hoped would replace classical and medieval sophistries — achieved its first systematic expression in the seventeenth century. With its ambition to perfect a method of pure induction, it proposed to the imagination the idea of a “real” physical world hidden behind the apparent one, an occult realm of pure material causation, utterly devoid of all the properties of mind, most especially intentional purposes. From at least the time of Galileo, a division was introduced between what Wilfrid Sellars called the “manifest image” and the “scientific image” — between, that is, the phenomenal world we experience and that imperceptible order of purely material forces that composes its physical substrate. And, at least at first, the divorce was amicable, inasmuch as phenomenal qualities were still granted a certain legitimacy; they were simply surrendered to the custody of the immaterial soul. But mind was now conceived as an exception within the frame of nature. In the pre-modern vision of things, the cosmos had been seen as an inherently purposive structure of diverse but integrally inseparable rational relations — for instance, the Aristotelian aitia, which are conventionally translated as “causes,” but which are nothing like the uniform material “causes” of the mechanistic philosophy. And so the natural order was seen as a reality already akin to intellect. Hence the mind, rather than an anomalous tenant of an alien universe, was instead the most concentrated and luminous expression of nature’s deepest essence. This is why it could pass with such wanton liberty through the “veil of Isis” and ever deeper into nature’s inner mysteries. The Cartesian picture, by contrast, was a chimera, an ungainly and extrinsic alliance of antinomies. And reason abhors a dualism. Moreover, the sciences in their modern form aspire to universal explanation, ideally by way of the most comprehensive and parsimonious principles possible. So it was inevitable that what began as an imperfect method for studying concrete particulars would soon metastasize into a metaphysics of the whole of reality. The manifest image was soon demoted to sheer illusion, and the mind that perceived it to an emergent product of the real (which is to say, mindless) causal order.
The resulting self-referential incoherence is patent: it is only by starting from our conscious mindedness that we come to reason, experience, observe, infer and more. So, any grand scheme of thought that undermines mind or its ability to at least in some cases -- error exists is also a self-evident first truth -- correctly apprehend truths about the world, abstract and concrete, is inescapably fatally incoherent. But if we are forever distracted, forever pointing the finger elsewhere, we will not see this. The matter goes on:
After five decades, it would be astonishing if Dennett were to change direction now. But, by the same token, his project should over that time have acquired not only more complexity, but greater sophistication. And yet it has not. For instance, he still thinks it a solvent critique of Cartesianism to say that interactions between bodies and minds would violate the laws of physics. Apart from involving a particularly doctrinaire view of the causal closure of the physical (the positively Laplacian fantasy that all physical events constitute an inviolable continuum of purely physical causes), this argument clumsily assumes that such an interaction would constitute simply another mechanical exchange of energy in addition to material forces.
How do we arrive at laws of physics save by conscious mindedness? Mindedness that must be able to sufficiently apprehend and reason about reality that we have some confidence in our findings? A confidence that Dennett here uses to pose what he imagines is unanswerable: oh, you would contradict the laws of material reality. And, sir, how do we come to know that such laws exist and are sufficiently strong that their violation as claimed is problematic if the very minds that we use to get to the laws are what we now would undermine? The fatal incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism is yet once more on public display, but we are bewitched. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2017
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DS, yup -- the original painted lady, daughter of a pagan high priest (and king looks like) sent to draw those hillbillies into the orbit. Complete with her retinue of false prophets. And guess who stars as demonic prince over that domain, hisself? Doff hats, a moment's silence as we remember Naboth standing on his birthright and judicially murdered through sworn false testimony set up by ole Jez herself (with Ahab playing the weak hubby wrapped around the little finger) in order to get a power grab through. Plenty of trouble for Michael, prince of Israel! Somebody should write it as a SFF short story. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2017
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At least Jezebel was, according to the bible, anyway, an actual person, so it's possible that some woman (or man, for that matter) could be comparable to her. This person would have to be very bad to warrant a comparison with Jezebel.daveS
November 13, 2017
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DS, would you prefer something like "Jezebel"? The import is the same. However I do not normally use loaded terms. Let me contrast, a Ruth or even a Rahab, and of course there is a "Ruby" from Prov 31, or an Esther, or a Priscilla, or of course a Mary. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2017
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KF,
My own counsel is, find the right woman, who your heart can safely trust, then marry her. Be faithful to her and stand by her in accord with your wedding vows. Keep away from fornication and adultery, those are simply ways to buy grief in wholesale lots. And that’s just a counsel of prudence before we get to the actual moral and sin issues. The right woman is the one who will be the best mother for your children, and you need to make yourself the best father for hers. A good yardstick is found in Prov 31.
I notice that you wisely refrain from using expressions such as "daughter of Satan". 👍 And I don't believe your rendition of the advisory statement is absurd, btw. Peterson's choice of words is hard to defend, however.daveS
November 13, 2017
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DS, I suggest to you that the advisory statement you clipped as apparently absurd is in fact sober and sound prudence. A glance at the Potiphar's wife case speaks volumes, and in fact I am familiar with acrimonious divorce cases that demonstrate just how some -- repeat, SOME -- women can take advantage of their credibility to write falsehood into the court record. Indeed, in some cases, that is done with lawyer's help and is nicely calculated to put the estranged husband into a double bind. Leave it and it is damaging, object and it is perhaps potentially worse. You can imagine how that affects the innocent third party victims -- the children. My own counsel is, find the right woman, who your heart can safely trust, then marry her. Be faithful to her and stand by her in accord with your wedding vows. Keep away from fornication and adultery, those are simply ways to buy grief in wholesale lots. And that's just a counsel of prudence before we get to the actual moral and sin issues. The right woman is the one who will be the best mother for your children, and you need to make yourself the best father for hers. A good yardstick is found in Prov 31. Given where things now are, it might be advisable to refrain from even a so-called French Kiss until after the wedding. If you cannot find the right woman yet, restrain yourself. Our civilisation is increasingly toxic and suicidally self-destructive. The advice to a young leader to avoid antagonising an elder man (in the context of church and family relations) is generally sound advice. I would suggest that only when a disciplinary investigation and process have been completed will there be a place for a formal reprimand and even that should be carefully phrased. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2017
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KF,
F/N: J L Peterson on addressing vulnerability to false accusations of sexual abuse:
Where do they find these people? That guy is nuts. Edit: Do you endorse this sort of language?
Peterson: Even so-called “consensual sex” outside marriage opens you up to all kinds of calamity. The daughter of Satan with whom you slept can change her mind, turn around and accuse you of insane things when the relationship sours.
On to the bible verse:
Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father
That advice doesn't seem appropriate in some of these instances. Should we not rebuke Kevin Spacey, for example? How about Harvey Weinstein?daveS
November 13, 2017
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PS: Paul's counsel:
1 Tim 5:1 a Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, b younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity. [ESV]
In short, act i/l/o sound family relationships in effect creating an extended family network. In today's climate Billy Graham's rules are advisable, as US VP Pence has counselled. And if some are inclined to complain, they should look to the incidence of media-trumpeted accusations on the slightest excuse. A climate of smear tactics and declaring open hunting season on men has consequences.kairosfocus
November 13, 2017
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F/N: J L Peterson on addressing vulnerability to false accusations of sexual abuse: http://www.wnd.com/2017/11/how-to-deal-with-sex-assault-accusations/ (NB: I do not endorse his descriptions of Mr Trump and we need to come to a responsibly informed view on Judge Moore as sound evidence and credibility of witnesses is carefully evaluated . . . we do not need a media lynch mob climate.) KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2017
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DS, I understand. But in a sense, that is the point. They have to be there so why are they so invisible? Likely, there is an omerta enforced by compromise, shaming, internalised blame the victim, bribery [including of cops, just as with drugs], blackmail and likely murder. Meanwhile on a parallel track there is a line of false accusations that make the real cases seem incredible. Something had to be going on to kill so many stories of those who came out and blew the whistle on Weinstein. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark [--> our civilisation]. KFkairosfocus
November 12, 2017
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KF, I have no information about these "speakeasies". If I run across any, I will report it to law enforcement.daveS
November 12, 2017
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DS, where are the speakeasies and why are they not repeatedly in the headlines? That is the smoking gun. KF PS: Maybe Thailand, Epstein island, some things suggested for Haiti and the DR etc might be places to begin. Possibly, some poking around the studios of Los Angeles on both the Hollywood and porn-perversion anti-industry sides. The Groupie scene surrounding popular music may be another break-in point. The seedier side of Washington DC and London may be fruitful hunting grounds too, also New York.kairosfocus
November 12, 2017
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PS: Don't forget the implications of Pig Mouth "gate" with former UK PM David Cameron and the question of the price for admission to ever more inner circles of power.kairosfocus
November 12, 2017
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