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Philosopher: Materialist claims to explain the mind are like claims to have squared the circle

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From philosopher Edward Feser at Claremont Review of Books, reviewing Daniel Dennett’s Bacteria to Bach and Back:

How do you get blood from a stone? Easy. Start by redefining “blood” to mean “a variety of stone.” Next, maintaining as straight a face as possible, dramatically expound upon some trivial respect in which stone is similar to blood. For example, describe how, when a red stone is pulverized and stirred into water, the resulting mixture looks sort of like blood. Condescendingly roll your eyes at your incredulous listener’s insistence that there are other and more important respects in which stone and blood are dissimilar. Accuse him of obscurantism and bad faith. Finally, wax erudite about the latest research in mineralogy, insinuating that it somehow shows that to reject your thesis is to reject Science Itself.

Of course, no one would be fooled by so farcical a procedure. But substitute “mind” for “blood” and “matter” for “stone,” and you have the recipe for Daniel Dennett’s From Bacteria to Bach and Back. The philosopher Peter Geach once wrote that we should treat materialist claims to have explained the mind the way we would treat a claim to have squared the circle: the only question worth asking is “How well has the fallacy been concealed?” In Dennett’s case, not well. More.

No, Dennett does not conceal the fallacy well. But look at his audience. Do they really care? For the bicoastal elite, naturalism does not need to make sense so much as it needs to be enforced.

See also: Philosopher Ed Feser offers some fun: Richard Dawkins vs. Thomas Aquinas

Philosopher exposes neo-Darwinian Daniel Dennett: Claims “so preposterous as to verge on the deranged”

and

The illusion of consciousness sees through itself.

Comments
Seversky @45: "The problem with internet forums is, as we know, that people tend to stick with those who share their beliefs rather than seeking out those who differ. And, yes, there are groups inside and outside universities who foster discussions between Christian and non-Christians and churches are under no legal obligation to invite atheists to address them. I just think it would both sides would benefit from such confrontations if they were staged on the basis of mutual respect and tolerance." I agree with all of this. My original objection was to your suggestion that Christians run scared when confronted with learned arguments for atheism, materialism, etc. My point was that Christianity -- learned Christianity -- has a long track record of not running from such arguments, but of meeting them head-on. If your point is that this is not true of some Bible-Belt Christians or churches, I agree; unfortunately some Protestant Christians in the USA came to the conclusion, decades ago, that the best way of dealing with criticism of religion is to shut their ears so they can't hear it, or to tell their children lies or half-truths to inoculate them against the criticism of religion. To me that bespeaks fear. But I don't see that fear in C. S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Chesterton, Gilson, Plantinga, Feser, and many others alive today. The fact that many of the more fundamentalist churches don't encourage their members and children to read the writings of such Christians, but would rather maintain insularity by using canned Sunday school and adult Bible class materials of low intellectual quality, produced in fundamentalist quarters by people who are more devout than informed or intelligent, is in my view to the discredit of those churches. And I think it hurts Christianity itself, to make out that Christian ears need to be protected from hearing about non-Christian views, or that weak or specious arguments against atheism and materialism are adequate. It makes Christianity look much weaker than it is. But no one who has read the history of Christian thought could imagine that Christianity has been championed by intellectual weaklings. One of the worst things about American sectarian Protestantism is that it has actively or tacitly discouraged the systematic study of the history of Christian thought. The pastors and lay leaders generally know very little about it, and stick to their Bibles alone. That's a huge mistake. All the great religious traditions -- Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist -- in addition to their sacred texts, have developed highly intelligent systematic writing. The fundamentalists' idea that all you need is your Bible is a huge mistake. You need rational thought to help articulate the meaning of the Bible. And you can't do that without the help of the great Christian minds.eddieunmuzzled
February 20, 2018
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Seversky @43: "I argue that regarding the mind as a property of the brain is the most reasonable inference based on what we observe, although it’s not a deductive conclusion." It's not a deductive conclusion -- I agree. That's what I was trying to get you to concede. That's why I suggested you should qualify your claim to something more cautious, such as, "The activity of the mind seems to be closely related to the activities of the brain." I have noticed that materialists (also Darwinists, AGW activists, radical feminists, and many others) tend to go for extreme and unqualified statements. They are satisfied with a much looser epistemology than people trained in philosophy are. I'm merely issuing an academic caution here, so that readers can see that your certainty that mind is "nothing but" an activity of the brain is a claim that you hold on less than demonstrative grounds. That doesn't make your claim wrong, but everyone should be aware of the difference between "This seems to me to be the only reasonable explanation of the facts" and "This is the only physically and logically possible explanation of the facts." I'm trying to caution the readers here against moving from "science has found a connection between mind and brain" to "science has shown that mind is nothing but brain activity." Science has shown no such thing. Science has shown us connections. Various people, including scientists, journalists, bloggers, etc. have drawn metaphysical conclusions from those connections. The public needs to be educated in spotting the move from science to metaphysics. The main crime of the New Atheists, it seems to me, is not that they are religious unbelievers (some of my best friends are unbelievers), nor even that they engage in debate with religious believers (that can be done in constructive ways, though the New Atheists have trouble with the "constructive" part). The main crime of the New Atheists is that they try to pass off their personal metaphysics as the logical or inevitable consequence of being a good scientist or accepting good science. The public is confused by this because of the prestige that "science" has in our culture. But most scientists aren't any better at metaphysics than baseball players or movie stars are. If a neurologist tells me that he sees certain blips indicating electrical activity in the brain on his screen, I am inclined to trust him; if he says "Mind is nothing but the activity of brain" I am inclined to reserve judgment, especially if the neurologist is known to me to have a proclivity toward a materialist and reductionist metaphysics and to be less than open-minded about alternatives.eddieunmuzzled
February 20, 2018
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Seversky @42: "I accept on your word that you don’t support the compulsory introduction of creationism or ID into the science classroom and I know the DI opposes it. That said, we have evidence that, in some areas, there are parents, administrators and even some teachers who do. That needs to be stopped." I agree. Individual teachers and parents shouldn't be trying to subvert the state-mandated science curriculum. If they want it changed, that change should be made at the political level, through elected representatives in charge of the educational system. No individual teacher should be saying to a science class in a state-funded school that evolution is not true and that a literal reading of Genesis is true instead. That's out of bounds. But it shouldn't be out of bounds for a science teacher to mention, briefly, some minority views held on a scientific subject by bona fide research scientists. It should not be illegal for a science teacher to say that neo-Darwinism taught that random mutations filtered by natural selection could produce all evolutionary change, but that some scientists in recent decades have questions this -- on scientific grounds (as opposed to religious grounds). It should not be illegal for a science teacher to mention (as opposed to champion) Behe's argument from irreducible complexity (as long as the teacher makes clear that the majority of scientists don't accept the argument). It should not be illegal for a science teacher to mention the critiques of neo-Darwinism of Lynn Margulis, James Shapiro, some of the Altenberg people, etc. -- again, within the understanding that these are alternate views not currently held by the majority but might in some cases turn out to have some validity as science progresses. Of course, if the teacher spends a disproportionate amount of time on criticisms of evolutionary theory, and almost no time presenting its strengths, I would begin to suspect the motivation of such a teacher. But the curriculum is set up so that mostly what is discussed are what the majority of scientists believe, and any mentions by the teacher of criticism are likely to occupy less than 5% of the class time in the unit on evolution. I don't see the problem with this. In fact, as a student, I always found science classes more lively when teachers discussed debates among scientists than when they just said, "You gotta learn this stuff to get on to the next level -- so learn it!"eddieunmuzzled
February 20, 2018
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Seversky @41: I'm unaware that any of the people I mentioned (Rockefeller, Carnegie, or Henry Ford) owned slaves. I mentioned them as self-driven individuals who accomplished more in their lifetimes than the average person did. My point was that they were not hampered in their accomplishments (as a modern businessman or government administrator, trying to accomplish the same things, would be) by feeling any need to deal with whining complaints like, "You shouldn't use that pronoun because it makes me feel excluded!" or "You called that person an Indian rather than a Native American and that's degrading!" The politics of "special interest group alleged hurt feelings" are very recent. Of course, slavery is another matter entirely. Actually hurting someone physically or economically by enslaving them, whipping them, denying them the right to marry, etc. must of course not be allowed. But I was not defending any such thing. And I didn't need the examples of famous people. I can think of many common people, from my grandparents' generation, who did not own slaves, oppress native Americans, etc. but would have scorned the special interest group whining which so preoccupies politicians and journalists today. They would not have had anything against a black or native person attending a university, earning a degree, working up slowly from stock-boy to boss, bettering himself or herself, etc., but they would have had no patience at all with, say, recent revolts of lazy, self-indulgent students (whether black, Hispanic, or of any other ethnic roots) who demanded that university curricula be reshaped in accord with their interest-group politics, with a corresponding watering down of rigorous academic standards. "University professors need to change what they do to make interest-group members feel good about themselves" is not a claim that should be taken seriously. The job of university professors is to make smart, good, diligent, industrious, and hard-working students feel good about themselves (for their intellectual accomplishments), not to make lazy, below-average, under-achieving students (whether black, Hispanic, white or of any other stock), who spend all their time in political agitation rather than cracking open their books, feel good about themselves. The university is a place for the bright and the industrious, a meritocratic setting where what you come from (ethnicity, religion, sex, orientation, etc.) shouldn't matter at all. There should be no discrimination against any group but there should be no handouts or hand-holding of people from any group, either. And certainly neither curriculum nor grading standards should be controlled by gangs of underachieving students motivated by resentment rather than the desire to learn. I'm not at all impressed by atheists who claim that "they don't get no respect." I already mentioned (to your silence) that Isaac Asimov and Carl Sagan were popular atheists in their day, who had the respect of the public, as brilliant lay educators (and entertaining writers). The answer is simple: if you are an atheist and want the public to respect you, don't be an arrogant, combative jerk like Coyne or Myers; be a decent, all-right human being like Sagan or Asimov. I think I've said enough on this subject.eddieunmuzzled
February 20, 2018
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The problem with teaching evolution in the science classroom is the evidence for evolution is very, very limited and the teaching usually goes far beyond what is science. Why isn't everyone upset about that?ET
February 18, 2018
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Seversky and Eddie, thank you for this discussion. I have thoroughly enjoyed it and have benefitted from both sides.Molson Bleu
February 18, 2018
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“Meanwhile, it is also quite evident from your line of questions, that your intervention is studiously tangential to the primary focus, on personalities rather than substance.“ No. Eddie questioned why Seversky hadn’t responded and you jumped in with an unflattering insinuation. I simply pointed out that there are many reasons for commenters to go temporarily silent. You responded to this by saying that Seversky wasn’t guilty of what you were insinuating. Which is strange because your insinuation was in response to a very specific question about Seversky. My point is that we should all refrain from playing these silly rhetorical games and just provide comments in good faith, under the assumption that others are doing the same. Whether or not they are is immaterial because when it occurs, as was the case with your insinuation, it is easy for all to see. Bad faith comments only cast doubt on those making the comment, not those who the comment is aimed at. I won’t say anything more about this. You can take it as the constructive criticism it is, or not.Molson Bleu
February 18, 2018
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All you have to do is ask atheists how they explain our existence and watch the dance that comes after. Explain the mind? Atheists can't even account for the brain.ET
February 18, 2018
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eddieunmuzzled @ 28
A church is a free association of convinced Christians, and there is no reason why it should invite into its midst people who advocate that its teachings are false. However, there is a time and a place for Christians to allow public criticisms of their views — it’s just not the Sunday worship service. Many churches have evening events of a less devotional, more educational nature, where arguments from atheists can be considered; and on university campuses, there are groups such as Intervarsity and others who often sponsor debates between Christians and non-Christians. There are also plenty of places on the internet where religion can be criticized and defended.
The problem with internet forums is, as we know, that people tend to stick with those who share their beliefs rather than seeking out those who differ. And, yes, there are groups inside and outside universities who foster discussions between Christian and non-Christians and churches are under no legal obligation to invite atheists to address them. I just think it would both sides would benefit from such confrontations if they were staged on the basis of mutual respect and tolerance.Seversky
February 18, 2018
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Seversky, What needs to be stopped is teaching the unscientific nonsense of evolutionism in science classrooms. Students should openly question evolutionism and make their teachers uncomfortable with the fact they don't have any answers and they can't find them. Biology should be taught in biology classrooms and not the untestable pap of evolutionism. There isn't any reason nor rationale for thinking the mind is a property of the brain. You are clearly full of the kooky-aid.ET
February 18, 2018
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eddieunmuzzled @ 27
Seversky @22: “the human mind is so closely correlated with the physical brain that the most reasonable inference is that the former is in some way a property of the latter.” The inference is not sound. “Mind is found in association with brains” does not warrant the conclusion “Mind is a property of brains,” or still less your earlier formulation which was that mind was “wholly derivable” from brains.
I disagree, I argue that regarding the mind as a property of the brain is the most reasonable inference based on what we observe, although it's not a deductive conclusion. NDE's, OOBEs are, as the names suggest, accounts of subjective experiences of people whose brains are undergoing similar changes in their physical states. Of themselves, they are not dispositive on the question of the nature of "mind". I don't rule out the possibility of an immaterial mind but, as yet, no one has provided an adequate account of the nature of such an entity.Seversky
February 18, 2018
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eddieunmuzzled @ 26
Seversky @21: I don’t support the compulsory introduction of either creationism or ID into science classrooms, or any other classrooms. Neither does Discovery. Their official policy statements have stated since before the Dover trial that ID should not be mandated in the classrooms and that evolution should be taught more thoroughly and more critically, based on problems identified in the peer-reviewed secular scientific literature. And of course I believe that *everything* should be taught more critically in the schools, whether it’s the science of global warming or the intentions of the Founding Fathers regarding religion and the state or anything else. Neither science nor any other subject should be taught as a sort of catechism.
I doubt if we are very far apart on this. I accept on your word that you don't support the compulsory introduction of creationism or ID into the science classroom and I know the DI opposes it. That said, we have evidence that, in some areas, there are parents, administrators and even some teachers who do. That needs to be stopped. Students should be taught what is the current thinking in science but also, as you say, that this is not dogma, that science deals in the best available explanations of what we observe, which are always open to criticism. Questions of Absolute Truth® are the province of philosophers and theologians.Seversky
February 18, 2018
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eddieunmuzzled @ 25
Seversky @20: Your response is pathetic. Atheists are held in low esteem by many voters? What do you want, a crying towel? Aren’t the atheists big enough as human beings to take criticism without whining?
I could say exactly the same about Christians. Aren't they tough enough to ignore a few barbs slung their way by so-called New Atheists?
Isn’t this whole culture of self-esteem (“I have the right to be respected and valued by others”) part of the problem — the enfeeblement of America, its schools, its culture, and its life, by touchy-feely psychological discourse? Americans used to be a virile, tough race of people who couldn’t give a —- whether or not anyone “esteemed” them. Can you imagine Rockefeller or Carnegie or Henry Ford losing sleep at night over whether or not they were “esteemed”? C’mon, Seversky, you can do better than that
That's right. A tough, independent, virile race which employed slaves on an industrial scale and brushed aside native peoples - the original occupants of the land - and whatever rights they might have had whenever it suited them. And don't give me crap about 'robber barons' who grew obscenely rich on the back of the hard labor of others and were quick to use private armies of "goons" to crush any workers who dared to stand up for better conditions.
Besides, you can hardly demand that the public respect atheists more when the most prominent atheists openly mock and insult religious believers. That’s a double standard. If atheists want more respect, why don’t they start giving it?
On this we agree. I see no reason to go out of one's way to be offensive to others. The first approach should involve common courtesy and consideration for others. Of course, if that is not reciprocated then one could assume that one is relieved of that duty in that case.
What do you propose, a quota system whereby a certain number of atheists are automatically entitled to seats in Congress, in accord with their proportion of the population?
No, I suspect that would be an unconstitutional religious test. The best approach is a long-term strategy to win greater acceptance of secularism and non-belief in "the public square" and, whatever their faults, the New Atheists have advanced that cause a little. However, sooner or later both sides will have to try and find a way past the hyper-partisan tribalism that seems to be infecting so much of public life here.Seversky
February 18, 2018
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MB, there is a pattern which has come up sufficiently, of scrutiny and intervention. When it does not happen, that is at least perhaps like Holmes and the guard dog that did not bark. Meanwhile, it is also quite evident from your line of questions, that your intervention is studiously tangential to the primary focus, on personalities rather than substance. This tends to support the point. And that's before we actually look at the force of ed's remarks, which have spoken for themselves sufficiently as to draw the remarks by GP and UB above. In short, your own actions tend to support the point. If you have something to say on actual substance, kindly do so. KFkairosfocus
February 16, 2018
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“MB, the issue is not Seversky.“ Thank you. But it begs the question why you would bring it up in a question about Seversky’s silence.Molson Bleu
February 15, 2018
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MB, the issue is not Seversky. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2018
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KF@36, this may be true, but what does this have to do with Seversky. I have seen nothing but respect shown by him. Why paint him with this brush?Molson Bleu
February 15, 2018
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MB, under normal circumstances. While UD's context is not as far gone as is Wikipedia [almost instant reversion etc then troll-domain escalation . . . ], there are plenty of objectors whose motivation is extreme; to the point of cyber stalking and on the ground stalking. In this context, the walk-away is often significant. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2018
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"Also, as UD is under extraordinary hostile scrutiny that often leads to pouncing on real or imagined flaws, silence may reflect what has hit home." I wouldn't read too much into anyone's silence, on this web-site or any other. I often see the word "crickets" used as if it is an argument that the opposition has no counter argument. I suspect, in most cases, the silence has more to do with people having busy lives and not wanting to waste it on discussions where there is zero chance of changing the minds of those standing against them. That is why I try not to be dragged into discussions on things like objective vs subjective morality, abortion, same sex marriage, gun control or atheism vs theism. I don't always succeed because venting can tend to be cathartic. But they are never fruitful conversations because both sides in any of these types of discussions rely largely on on cliched talking points and the denigration of the opposition.Molson Bleu
February 15, 2018
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Eddie, I agree with GP and UB, two of our community's significant commenters and contributors. Here at this blog, we often have to bear in mind the onlooker now and later. Also, as UD is under extraordinary hostile scrutiny that often leads to pouncing on real or imagined flaws, silence may reflect what has hit home. I think you made solid points and that you have said them well. Why not an OP from your direction, or -- better yet -- a series? If you want, I would host. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2018
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I agree with GP. Thanks for taking the time.Upright BiPed
February 15, 2018
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eddieunmuzzled: You make very good points in a very reasonable and brilliant way. I really liked reading your thoughts! :)gpuccio
February 15, 2018
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kairosfocus @29: Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure that Seversky found any of my further replies interesting, because he hasn't replied now for 4 days. It's always a judgment call, how much time to spend on these conversations. One writes in hopes of evoking a reply from one's conversation partner, and when no reply is forthcoming, one then wonders whether other person agrees, disagrees, is bored, or whatever. Perhaps I invested too much energy in dealing with Seversky's claims. But if the conversation was of interest to you it might also have been of interest to others. Maybe the justification for replies is that they serve the general good of the reading community, even if they don't get anywhere with the person to whom they're addressed.eddieunmuzzled
February 14, 2018
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Seversky, Pardon but your ideological imbalance is showing:
there have been moves to introduce creationism or creation science or Intelligent Design into the high school science classroom.
On the other side of the equation is something like:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads [==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ] we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
And that was enforced by way of a media lynching just over a decade ago, not to mention by lawfare under false colour of well-judged legal reasoning and judicious rulings. So, perhaps it would be helpful for you to reflect on the principle that the sauce that works for the goose also works for the gander. KFkairosfocus
February 11, 2018
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Eddie, quite interesting. KFkairosfocus
February 11, 2018
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Seversky @21: "My question is how many churches would be willing to invite an atheist to attend services or Bible classes so that they could be confronted with atheist criticisms of their standard interpretations of the stories that are taught as lessons to the faithful? How many, in fact, teach the thinking of the advanced and sophisticated theologians that the New Atheists are accused of ignoring?" A church is a free association of convinced Christians, and there is no reason why it should invite into its midst people who advocate that its teachings are false. However, there is a time and a place for Christians to allow public criticisms of their views -- it's just not the Sunday worship service. Many churches have evening events of a less devotional, more educational nature, where arguments from atheists can be considered; and on university campuses, there are groups such as Intervarsity and others who often sponsor debates between Christians and non-Christians. There are also plenty of places on the internet where religion can be criticized and defended. Public schools, however, are quite different from churches. Churches don't pretend to be neutral on questions about God, etc., and they therefore are under no obligation to entertain alternate views; schools, on the other hand, are supposed to be objective about questions of scientific and historical truth, and therefore should have no objection to the airing of alternate views in science class, history class, etc. There should be no problem in explaining neo-Darwinism in a biology class and then also presenting Shapiro's critique of neo-Darwinism, for example. There should be no problem in presenting the view that the Founders wanted a rigorous separation of church and state, alongside the view that the Founders did not intend such phrases to mean what they are now often taken to mean. Schools are a logical place for students to learn how to handle disagreements of this sort. Churches, however, are not a logical place to present a weekly debate between atheism and Christianity. However, while "the Church" as such has no obligation to give atheist arguments any platform, I believe that Christians ought to familiarize themselves with atheist arguments (and Jewish, Muslim, etc. arguments) for their own good. Christians should read writings by people of non-Christian views, and take them with intellectual seriousness. That's part of personal religious and intellectual growth. But there are many ways of carrying out that idea that do not involve invitations of atheists to come into churches to tell Christians that they believe a delusion. As for your other point here, it's true that many Christian churches have a deplorably low level of intellectual life. Most Christians nowadays don't even know the founding documents and books of their own denominations, let alone the arguments of atheists. Hardly any Reformed people are left these days who have read Calvin extensively; hardly any Lutherans read Melanchthon any more; hardly any Episcopalians have even heard of Hooker, let alone read him. Hardly any churchgoers these days studied Latin in school or learned anything about Greek philosophy which formerly was part of the intellectual apparatus for interpreting Christian faith. American Protestantism has increasingly become a religion of arbitrary and selective private judgment about the meaning of the Bible, of private piety, of religious "experience", and so on, and the intellect is not valued, systematic thought is not valued. This anti-intellectual tendency in Protestantism is not an inherent thing; the founders of the Reformation were inveterately bookish and scholarly; but American religion for complex historical reasons has become more oriented to feelings, activism, etc. than to the study of ideas, reasons, arguments, etc. This is a bad thing, but it won't change overnight. But the same is true of atheism. Quite often popular atheist argument doesn't rise above grand claims that science has disproved religion, often with very little knowledge on the atheist's part about either science or religion. The number of barroom atheists is legion, but the number of atheists who have carefully read Lucretius, Spinoza, Hobbes, Nietzsche, etc., and on the other side Plato, Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, etc., and thus learned how to be intelligent atheists, is minuscule. There is vulgar, uninformed atheism as there is vulgar, uninformed, Bible-pounding Christianity. Dawkins offers a pretty vulgar understanding of the religion he criticizes, such that even fellow-unbeliever Michael Ruse had to take him to task for his abysmal ignorance of theology. And most internet or coffee-shop atheists fall below the level of even Dawkins. It would help if the schools of America could get Americans in the habit of reading hard books again, and writing proper English prose again, so that both the level of atheistic and the level of Christian argument could be improved.eddieunmuzzled
February 10, 2018
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Seversky @22: "the human mind is so closely correlated with the physical brain that the most reasonable inference is that the former is in some way a property of the latter." The inference is not sound. "Mind is found in association with brains" does not warrant the conclusion "Mind is a property of brains," or still less your earlier formulation which was that mind was "wholly derivable" from brains. A non-doctrinaire thinker would try to investigate the relationship between mind and brain with an open "mind", and would not, as you seem to do, simply dismiss numerous reports by intelligent witnesses of apparent out-of-body experiences. I don't claim such experiences prove anything, but I see them as relevant to the discussion, whereas you apparently think all such reports are lies, fabrications, errors etc. and simply refuse to deal with them. I infer that you feel that if they are true reports, your materialism might be threatened, and thus you seek to dismiss them. You appear to cling to your materialism as firmly as some fundamentalists cling to their literal Genesis. Personally, I'm against "clinging" and in favor of a dialogical approach to all theoretical questions. I don't hold rigidly to any literal reading of Genesis and I don't hold rigidly to materialism. I'm in favor of Socratic inquiry in which no result is ruled out in advance, not even minds independent of bodies, designers, immortal souls, or God.eddieunmuzzled
February 10, 2018
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Seversky @21: I don't support the compulsory introduction of either creationism or ID into science classrooms, or any other classrooms. Neither does Discovery. Their official policy statements have stated since before the Dover trial that ID should not be mandated in the classrooms and that evolution should be taught more thoroughly and more critically, based on problems identified in the peer-reviewed secular scientific literature. And of course I believe that *everything* should be taught more critically in the schools, whether it's the science of global warming or the intentions of the Founding Fathers regarding religion and the state or anything else. Neither science nor any other subject should be taught as a sort of catechism. The goal of schools should be to generate smarter people, not to generate disciples, accepters of the status quo, blind adherents to ruling paradigms, etc. So evolution should be taught in schools, but so should the criticisms of neo-Darwinism by secular professors of evolutionary biology from Yale and Chicago. This has nothing to do with either creationism or ID; it's just a point of educational principle. But of course Eugenie Scott dedicated years of her life not merely to preventing ID from being even *heard* (let alone defended) in the schools (under her the NCSE was much more restrictive than you seem to be), but trying to veto *every single proposal made in the country* for a *critical* approach (no ID, no creationism, no Bibles, just scientific criticism) to teaching evolutionary theory. And her successors are doing the same.eddieunmuzzled
February 10, 2018
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Seversky @20: Your response is pathetic. Atheists are held in low esteem by many voters? What do you want, a crying towel? Aren't the atheists big enough as human beings to take criticism without whining? Isn't this whole culture of self-esteem ("I have the right to be respected and valued by others") part of the problem -- the enfeeblement of America, its schools, its culture, and its life, by touchy-feely psychological discourse? Americans used to be a virile, tough race of people who couldn't give a ---- whether or not anyone "esteemed" them. Can you imagine Rockefeller or Carnegie or Henry Ford losing sleep at night over whether or not they were "esteemed"? C'mon, Seversky, you can do better than that. Besides, you can hardly demand that the public respect atheists more when the most prominent atheists openly mock and insult religious believers. That's a double standard. If atheists want more respect, why don't they start giving it? You haven't responded to my point that the atheists of old like Asimov and Sagan were not disrespected the way Coyne, Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. are. Did you never bother to try to understand why it was that even Christian Americans kind of liked Carl Sagan, whereas they dislike the new atheists? Are you not capable of connecting the dots here? Can you not understand that offensive behavior will engender dislike? Whatever silly thing a very small number of politicians may propose (about restricting citizenship against atheists, for example), such proposals haven't a snowball's chance in --you know where -- of getting passed. Even if a legislature passed such insane proposals (which no legislature would), the Supreme Court would strike them down. The fact is that there is no law forbidding any atheist from running for Congress, from seeking the leadership of a party or starting his/her own party, from raising funds, etc., so if open atheists aren't elected it's not due to the law or the Constitution. In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of non-declared atheists in Congress, and I'm pretty sure that the electorate knows or suspects who they are, but they keep getting elected if they pass good legislation. I doubt very much that Donald Trump is Christian in any meaningful sense, and it would not surprise me if he was at least an agnostic, and I'm sure that many Christians were very suspicious of his lip-service to religious faith, but voted for him on policy grounds having nothing to do with religion. What do you propose, a quota system whereby a certain number of atheists are automatically entitled to seats in Congress, in accord with their proportion of the population? If the atheist community wants more representation in Congress, it should start producing less odious atheists. If the public perception of atheists is that they are arrogant, shallow, rude, insulting, vulgar people like P.Z. Myers, then of course atheists are not going to get elected to Congress. But if the public thinks of jolly, humorous, playful atheists like Carl Sagan, then it's only a matter of time before such atheists win their places in the legislative bodies. The problem is that the pro-science community in the USA has increasingly let science be represented by people like Myers and Krauss rather than by people like Sagan. So people turn against science because they associate it with un-American bad manners and with an aggressive (as opposed to a merely passive) form of atheism. People like yourself have to start telling off these Coynes and Myerses; tell them to get out of sight so that a "gentler, kinder" sort of atheist can come to the fore. Yes, if your "openly atheistic candidates" are arrogant jerks, they will not be elected. If they attack the deepest religious beliefs of many Americans, they will not be elected. So find some candidates that the people will like. Plenty of avowed atheists are elected to office in every other democracy on earth. They will be in the US Congress, too, in time. But whining about how there aren't enough of them won't get you the change you want. Find better leaders for your movement!eddieunmuzzled
February 10, 2018
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If God is able to judge me, why should I not judge Him?
You are not qualified to do so, duh.ET
February 10, 2018
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