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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
Dionisio @11 There’s no infinite universe in the Christian Scriptures as far as I’m aware of. This universe had a beginning and will have an end. Nobody knows when. Only God knows. However, the question ‘when’ is relative to our time constrain within this universe. At the end of this universe, time and space will go cease to exist too. Have you ever wondered why such a waste of the beautiful universe and the Earth? But wait! Ps 104:5 says "He has prepared Earth upon its foundations that it will not move for an eternity of eternities." I guess eternity doesn't meaning infinity? Also, Adam and Eve could have eaten the fruit from the tree of life and live forever... Why didn't they??? I guess forever is not the same thing as infinite time? Gen 3:22 "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-obviously on Earth... Gen 3:19 "By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return, but your souls will live on so you have nothing to worry about ...J-Mac
July 31, 2017
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The new guest simply sets off an infinite, never to be completed process
DaveS, Appealing to infinity in a logical problem about infinity doesn't *really* solve anything. Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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asauber, I also initially thought the use of the term "moving excitation" was gratuitous, but it does accurately describe the situation. The new guest simply sets off an infinite, never-to-be-completed process of guests shifting down one room. And while all the guests could fit inside the hotel before, now there is always at least one guest outside the hotel waiting for the next room to become available. I would certainly like to know of any logical problems this presents.daveS
July 31, 2017
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ET @ 21 and asauber @ 22: Well said.Truth Will Set You Free
July 31, 2017
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So *really* what has happened is that the new guest has set up a traveling wave in the chain of rooms.
*Really* I'm not sure a fantasy story about traveling waves between hypothetical rooms in a fictional hotel *really* presents anything useful. Seriously, logical problems don't get solved by throwing words like "excitation" at them. Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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LoL@ rvb8- Science seems unqualified to answer the basic questions plaguing evolutionism. No one can answer the question how did natural selection or any other blind. mindless process can produce protein machines like bacterial flagella and ATP synthase.ET
July 31, 2017
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While the paper is poorly written, he does identify what I think is a weak point in the Kalam argument, namely the premise that there cannot be any "actual" infinities in the universe. WLC says that the Hilbert Hotel demonstrates why these infinities cannot exist. Snoke's reply:
What about the Hilbert hotel? Fans of the Kalaam argument, and fans of Hilbert’s "finite mathematics," often try to create conundrums to prove that real infinities can’t exist. One example is the "Hilbert hotel". In this scenario, there is a hotel with an infinite number of rooms. One night, each of the rooms is occupied. A new guest arrives and asks for a room, and is told they are all full. The guest suggests the following ingenious scheme: ask the occupant of room 1 to go to room 2 ask that occupant to move to the next room. The occupant of room 1 then sleeps in room 2, and the occupant of room 2 goes to room 3, displacing that occupant, and so on, until everyone has moved one room number higher. Since there is an infinite number of rooms, everyone will find a room, and the new guest can sleep in room 1. This seems to imply a contradiction, since all the rooms were occupied at the start, with no empty spaces, but an empty space was found. For a physicist, though, this scenario is easily dealt with by the principle of locality. It takes a finite time for an occupant to move from one room to the next. So really what has happened is that the new guest has set up a traveling wave in the chain of rooms. At all later points in time, there will be one guest walking from a one room to the next, while the other rooms are all occupied. There has not been a new room discovered, but rather a moving "excitation" (to use physics language).
In view of this explanation, it's not clear that an actually infinite Hilbert Hotel presents any problem at all.daveS
July 31, 2017
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@8 clarification of terms: Please, note that Ts = 0 Because the time counter was created along with the universe. Te could be renamed Tu or simply T, because it represents the total duration of the universe. Therefore T is infinitely smaller than infinite. On the other hand, the eternality of the souls created within the universe -while it still exist- is not measurable in time, because the time counter is valid within the boundaries of the universe it was created for. The souls were created for a timeless immaterial existence beyond the duration of the universe they were created within. Therefore, time is never infinite, because it's limited by Tu. The concept of infinity doesn't apply to time, which is a concept that makes sense only within the universe while it lasts. Outside the universe time ceases to make sense. It's all timeless.Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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Latemarch @15: Valid question. Yes, that's what it looks like. Anyway, poor thing, always barking up the wrong trees. :)Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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Florabama @14: Good point. Thanks.Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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EricMH @12:
I thought the point is that real infinities cause problems for physics? E.g. Hilbert’s hotel, Zeno’s paradox.
If that was the point of Snoke's article, then why did he make any theological reference? We can discuss physics, math, chemistry, even biology, without having to make any theological reference. In the threads "Mystery at the heart of life" and "A third way of evolution?" there are many comments about the referenced biology-related research papers, but very few -if any at all- make theological statements. As it's indicated @8 & @11 above, Snoke simply made a category mistake in his article. He should try better next time. I state this knowing that it's possible that theologically Snoke is closer to my position than many folks writing in this website, though maybe that's not the case. However, as we say in Spanish language, "Al pan pan, y al vino vino". We should call things by their names and clarify concepts that are confusing.Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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rvb8:
ET, and Dio, back to science please. Not things science is unqualified to answer; the supernatural!
Getting uncomfortable in here?Latemarch
July 31, 2017
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When physicists argue for the existence of black holes, they do so based on two things, "theoretical" physics and observed effects. No one has ever seen a black hole at the center of a galaxy. No one knows what is on the other side of black holes aka what happens to objects that get sucked in, but none of that keeps physicists from theorizing the existence of black holes based on the observations of galaxies and gravity. The observed nature of the universe points to a creator just as the nature of gravity and observed effects of black holes point to their existence. The Big Bang, the expanding universe, fine tuning, etc etc, all point to a creator. To deny that is to deny logic and reality. There may be a naturalistic explanation, but to deny that the evidence points toward a creator is just willful denial of reality. And accepting, at least that these effects are there, in no way denies infinity or requires an understanding of the state of being prior to the BB or of the nature of the Being that caused it any more than not knowing what's on the other side of black holes denies their existence.Florabama
July 31, 2017
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ET, and Dio, back to science please. Not things science is unqualified to answer; the supernatural!rvb8
July 30, 2017
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I thought the point is that real infinities cause problems for physics? E.g. Hilbert's hotel, Zeno's paradox.EricMH
July 30, 2017
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EDTA, There's no infinite universe in the Christian Scriptures as far as I'm aware of. This universe had a beginning and will have an end. Nobody knows when. Only God knows. However, the question 'when' is relative to our time constrain within this universe. At the end of this universe, time and space will go cease to exist too. Snoke's argument is incorrect. Barking up the wrong tree?Dionisio
July 30, 2017
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>But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. Physics has this unfortunate tendency to find an equation for something, and then play with it until they've broken it. For example, extending the time variable backwards beyond 0. This is the same bad habit that uses Einstein's field equations to predict the existence of "white holes", analogues to black holes, which have never been observed as far as we know. (There is speculation, but nothing more.) So pardon my distrust of postmodern physics and claims that the math now allows an infinitely old universe.EDTA
July 30, 2017
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My understanding of the kalaam argument is that it assert the following: Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Thus, if the universe began, it has a cause. And since God never began to exist, He is uncaused. So to ask, "What caused God?", is to commit a category error. I like David Snoke, but his argument doesn't touch this understanding of kalaam.anthropic
July 30, 2017
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My understanding of the kalaam argument is that it assert the following: Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Thus, if the universe began, it has a cause. And since God never began to exist, He is uncaused. So to ask, "What caused God?", is to commit a category error. I like David Snoke, but his argument doesn't touch my understanding of kalaam.anthropic
July 30, 2017
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Aren’t they mixing two different categories? The universe we’re in, which may have started at the so-called “Big Bang” but as they should well know is not going to last forever, because at the end of this Age of Grace everything should be destroyed. At least that’s what one could interpret in the Scriptures. Therefore the universe has a finite past and a finite future, according to the scriptures. No infinites associated with the universe. However, the ultimate reality is not constrained by time or space. The eternal future is for the souls that were created long after the Big Bank that started this universe. Two separate categories. The souls will outlast the universe demise. The universe started at time Ts People’s souls were created at Tp > Ts The universe shall end at Te > Tp People’s souls will last beyond the end of the universe. They won’t be constrained by time after the physical death of the body they occupy while in this earthly life. Ts < Tp < Te Our souls shall not be constrained by time in the presence of our Creator, because the Ultimate Reality is timeless. The time dimension is part of this universe. Once it gets destroyed, time and space cease to exist along with the universe too. There is no concept of day and night in eternity with God, because we shall be in the presence of true Light eternally. Not physical light, but spiritual Light. We should be careful when dealing with different categories. Let’s try not to mix them. One may or may not believe what is written. That’s what makes us believers or unbelievers. But if we claim to believe it, then we should not make the text say more or less than it really says. This physical universe, which we associate with the relativity theory, quantum physics, gravity, electromagnetic force, weak and strong nuclear forces, had a beginning and eventually should come to an end. Finite past and future. Our souls had a beginning but won’t have any end. Spiritually we have eternal life while the non-Christian souls shall also last eternally but won’t have eternal spiritual life. Spiritually dead souls eternally separated from their Creator’s grace and glory.Dionisio
July 30, 2017
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I was deposited here, by aliens, with a mission to infiltrate Starbucks. Alien species covet your coffee.Mung
July 30, 2017
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If someone questions the existence of God or some Intelligent Designer just ask them how they think we got here. Then try not laugh too much when they try answering. :cool:ET
July 30, 2017
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I disagree with daveS. It is good for starting a fire.Mung
July 30, 2017
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It is a very bad paper indeed.daveS
July 30, 2017
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Somehow because [t0, infinity] can be mapped one to one on to [-infinity,t0] an infinite future must be rejected.
The rejection of real infinities may be said to “prove too much.” For example, it would seem that the same argument proves that no one can have eternal life. It is standard Christian theology to say that people live on a semi-finite time interval, with a finite past and infinite future (eternal life). But as discussed above, the time interval [t0, infinity] can be mapped one-to-one to the time interval [- infinity,t0]. If we reject the reality of infinities into the past, we must reject the reality of infinities into the future, since mathematically the same logic applies to both, by a simple reflection operation t to -t (Again, observational constraints may cause us to reject one or the other. But if we accept the Kalaam argument we must reject forward infinities as well as past ones.)
This kind of logic makes my head hurt. The rest of the paper is just as unconvincing.Latemarch
July 30, 2017
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But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe
Modern physics and mathematics can't answer philosophical questions. Next. Andrewasauber
July 30, 2017
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I don't think Christians should argue about God's existence, just live according to His precepts, by His grace and for His glory. God's creation is His general revelation to all people. The Christian Scriptures are His special revelation to His people. However, it is written that "in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect" [1 Peter3:15 (ESV)]Dionisio
July 30, 2017
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