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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
What’s the argument that that moment is not reachable assuming an infinite past?
infinity = unknowable value unknowable value + x (2017.8.1) = unknowable value Andrewasauber
August 1, 2017
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On the second point, if you're always traveling, then you're always arriving somewhere. From the perspective of the moving present, certainly the past is always receding, so I guess I agree with #3 (although I'm not a presentist). I still don't see any problems here.daveS
August 1, 2017
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Assuming time. Always traveling, never arriving. The infinite past is always receding away from the present.Latemarch
August 1, 2017
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I can't edit my #81, so I'll start over. Let's say I specify noon today, my time as "the present". What's the argument that that moment is not reachable assuming an infinite past?daveS
August 1, 2017
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Exactly. You maintain that the rational numbers are infinite and we are at day zero. I maintain that beginning at an infinite past you cannot ever arrive at a day zero. You have assumed that which is to be proved.Latemarch
August 1, 2017
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Edited: Sorry, I read too fast. Zero day = the present. Yes, I am assuming we can identify particular moments in time as the present. Say noon today, my time. How is that a problem?daveS
August 1, 2017
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daveS,
Could you elaborate on your second sentence?
You cannot ever arrive at the present (zero day) from an infinite past. Yet you assume a zero day as a part of the set of rational numbers.....and on into your argument. You're begging the question.Latemarch
August 1, 2017
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Latemarch, Could you elaborate on your second sentence? I am saying that if you want to set up time coordinates, you are free to set the present as having time t = 0, or any other number you please. The particular choice of time coordinate for the present is unimportant. On the other hand, there is no "first" time obviously, if the past is indeed infinite. What exactly is the problem with that?daveS
August 1, 2017
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daveS is begging the question. He assumes the present in having a zero day. But that is the point, there is no zero day from an infinite past. ET, tribune7, and asauber have it right. I have no idea who it is that he reads that writes on the subject. It's apparently not the people that I read.Latemarch
August 1, 2017
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--My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. -- David Snoke should not use his credentials as a physicist to make a theological argument. If his faith is that the universe was always here without a first cause, well, that's his faith. There is nothing science-based about it.tribune7
August 1, 2017
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But you certainly could set zero to stand for the present
I don't think daveS wants to face the fact that infinity deprives numbers of their meaning. His infinity doesn't do that. He's got some kind of religious belief in a meaningful infinity. But that's certainly not science. Andrewasauber
August 1, 2017
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We can only move forward in time after going back in time.Mung
August 1, 2017
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ET, Sorry, I misunderstood your comment. But you certainly could set zero to stand for the present. Whenever you use the real numbers as a system of time coordinates, you must choose what moment in time has coordinate 0. So I could set 0 to stand for the present, and the negative real numbers each to stand for moments in the past. Then −86400 could stand for 86400 seconds (1 day) ago, for example.daveS
August 1, 2017
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That's what I said, daves. Zero would not refer to now, as you are trying to make it. The question is how did we get to the present from an infinite past?ET
August 1, 2017
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There is no starting point to an infinite past. William Lane Craig says that an infinite past would be "beginningless".daveS
August 1, 2017
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Zero would be the starting point but if there is an infinite past there wouldn't be a zero/ starting point.ET
August 1, 2017
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EricMH, No, not according to virtually everyone who writes on the subject of an infinite past, as I stated above. Here's an analogy: The real number line has infinite length, but there are no real numbers infinitely far from zero.daveS
August 1, 2017
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@54 DaveS, if the past is infinite, then there is a point that is infinitely far from the present. Thus, the present would never be reached from that point.EricMH
August 1, 2017
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Pindi @ 67: That was good. Smile.Truth Will Set You Free
July 31, 2017
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Dionisio! Please turn out the lights when you leave!Pindi
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac, Here's a list of my comments posted here: 8, 11, 16, 19, 51, 57, 58, 59, 62, 64, 65, 66Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac Did you see this @62? tell me who is this verse referring to? PS 37:29 (ESV) “The righteous shall inherit the land     and dwell upon it forever.” Who is the righteous?Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac, Did you read all the Bible references I wrote for you? If you did, then how did you make this story about "preconceptions"? Where did you get that from? Can you quote the specific text where I presented my preconceptions? Should I point to the comments where those verses are, in case you missed them? I thought we were understanding each other here, but now I see that's not the case. :) @51, 57, 58, 59, 62 also considering the previous comments @8, 11, 16, 19. This is from comment @58: Isaiah 65:17
[ New Heavens and a New Earth ] “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
new heavens and a new earth. This prophecy awaits the Second Coming of Christ (2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1). In the meantime through faith the saints experience in part the blessing of the age to come (42:9; 43:19 and notes). See “Heaven” at Rev. 21:1. the former. The adversities and disgrace brought on by sin (41:22 note).
Isaiah 66:22
“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
new heavens . . . new earth. See note 65:17 (cf. 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1). your offspring and your name. The people of God will never again suffer reproach, but will enjoy everlasting glory (43:1 note; 65:18, 19; cf. Jer. 31:35, 36).
Revelation 21:1
[ The New Heaven and the New Earth ] Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
new heaven and a new earth. Some have thought that the new universe will be an entirely new world with no connection with the old. But Is. 65:17–25 and Rom. 8:21–23 indicate that a transfiguration of the old world is in view, like the way in which our new bodies will be transfigurations of the old (1 Cor. 15:35–57). Everything is new (v. 5), which indicates the thoroughness of transfiguration, but the result is redemption and not simply abolition of the old. See theological note “Heaven.”
Commentaries copied from the Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries There are several Bible references in the above quoted text for you to do some homework. :) Is that the "preconception" you mentioned? :)Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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Dionisio, It is related to your preconception that the universe will be destroyed by God; i.e. indicating that the universe must have no purpose, just like materialists claim... BTW: I'm aware how the words related to infinity, eternity and everlasting life were used...Your preconceived idea of eternal soul is getting in the way of grasping the fundamental concepts of the purposeful design of the Earth, the universe and life...J-Mac
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac @60: Thank you for keeping this discussion going. I'm sure we're both learning much from it, don't you agree? See again the comment @57 about the figurative language regarding the words "forever", "infinity", etc. within certain contexts. I'll try to review the text quoted @59 and @60 to see what we can learn from it together. BTW, do you read Polish and Spanish text too? Cool! Now, please explain this:
I think that by now you should have some doubts as to what the purpose of the universe and the Earth is…Unless you will continue to try to support preconceived ideas rather then trying to get to the truth…
What's that related to? Next, tell me who is this verse referring to? PS 37:29
“The righteous shall inherit the land     and dwell upon it forever." (ESV)
Who is righteous? Isaiah 45:18 (ESV)
“For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens     (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it     (he established it; he did not create it empty,     he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.
“ empty. This word is translated “without form” in Gen. 1:2. This was the beginning, not the end of creation. In the same way God does not invite people to seek Him to no purpose. He will carry through with what He has begun (55:11; 66:9) and answer those who seek Him (55:3; Matt. 11:28; Heb. 11:6).Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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Truth Will Set You Free, J-Mac @ 48: Great question. Let’s see how the a/mats respond. A/mats problem is that they are seeking anything as long as they can support their preconceived notions...they are not trying to get to the truth and that's why they will never be set free... ;-)J-Mac
July 31, 2017
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Hi Dionisio, Thanks for your thorough response! While you contemplate the many verses and translations, you may find the following verses helpful... Isa 45:18 "For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other." PS 37:29 "And the righteous ones inherit the Earth and dwell upon it for eternity." I think that by now you should have some doubts as to what the purpose of the universe and the Earth is...Unless you will continue to try to support preconceived ideas rather then trying to get to the truth... Polish PS 37: 29 "Sprawiedliwi posiada ziemie i beda mieszkac na niej na zawsze" Espaniol Salmos 37:29 "Los justos poseerán la tierra, y para siempre morarán en ella."J-Mac
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac, Follow up to my comments @51, 57, 58 , also considering the previous comments @8, 11, 16, 19: here's the rest of your comment @26:
Adam and Eve could have eaten the fruit from the tree of life and live forever… Why didn’t they??? I guess forever is not the same thing as infinite time? Gen 3:22 “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever“-obviously on Earth… Gen 3:19 “By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return, but your souls will live on so you have nothing to worry about …
I'm not sure I understand your questions well, but will try to comment on the subject, even though my comments may not answer your question satisfactorily. You may always ask additional questions. Thanks. By now you may have noticed that most of my comments are based on scriptural text or other widely accepted biblical commentaries. Still to me the best answers to questions about the Bible are found in the Bible itself. But there are people who have dedicated a substantial part of their lives to study the Bible in the original languages of the oldest extant manuscripts. I like to consult those materials too and encourage others to do likewise. Also it helps sometimes to compare different English translations, and if possible, other languages too. Sometimes I look at Spanish Reina-Valera and some old Polish versions too. I would have liked to be able to read ancient Hebrew and Greek, but I did not learn those languages. I'll try to come back to this another time.Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac @26: Follow up to comments @51 & 57, also considering the previous comments @8, 11, 16, 19: Note that Snoke's arguments regarding the concept of "infinite" associated with this universe are a mute point within the context he has invoked, because it mixed categories (universe and souls) which have different relations to time. Regarding the end of this world it is written in both the OT and NT: Isaiah 65:17
[ New Heavens and a New Earth ] “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22
“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Revelation 21:1
[ The New Heaven and the New Earth ] Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
I’ll look at the remaining questions later.Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac @26:
Ps 104:5 says “He has prepared Earth upon its foundations that it will not move for an eternity of eternities.” I guess eternity doesn’t meaning infinity?
Interesting question. Thank you for asking it. Generally speaking many times we hear expressions that seem to indicate something has been settled forever, but if we really think about it, we realize that it may not last forever. For example, someone may establish a revocable trust that benefits their children and grandchildren. One could say that such a legal document will remain unchanged forever, unless the trustee decides to change or terminate it. Hence the duration of the trust is seen differently depending on who looks at it. For outsiders or even the beneficiaries, it's unchangeable, because there's nothing anyone can do to change it. For the trustee it is contingent upon his/her own decisions, because she/he purposely made it revocable. For example, the trustee might have setup the trust when the children were still little, but already planned to change some specific terms in some pages on the arrival of grandchildren. However, the children may not be aware of such an intention. Perhaps this is not a very accurate analogy, but it may give us an idea of the meaning of "forever" in different circumstances. It's always good to humbly realize that we have the creature's perspective, but we lack complete and accurate knowledge of the Creator's plan. Humility is at the core of the first beatitude taught by the Lord in one of His sermons. There must be an important reason why it was the first one mentioned. I have experienced myself the power of such an attitude, even though it hasn't been easy to learn it (actually I haven't acquired it yet, still working on it). At least on the few occasions that I have enjoyed such a feeling, it has given me the freedom to openly admit my ignorance on many issues and calmly ask questions that normally would have been considered embarrassing and I would have refrained from asking. Please, point to anything that may seem incoherent in my comments. I'll gladly review it and correct any inaccuracies or errors. It's important that we express ideas clearly. Specially when dealing with fundamental topics like this. Thanks. Regarding the Bible OT verse you referred to, here are a few English translations from the extant manuscripts that were written in ancient Hebrew or Greek (Septuagint): Psalm 104:5
(ESV)
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
(NIV)
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
(KJV)
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
The world is stable and ordered, not chaotic. God’s control of the world is comforting to those who recognize it
Matthew Henry's Commentary:
When we are addressing ourselves to any religious service we must stir up ourselves to take hold on God in it (Isa. 64:7); so David does here. “Come, my soul, where art thou? What art thou thinking of? Here is work to be done, good work, angels’ work; set about it in good earnest; let all the powers and faculties be engaged and employed in it: Bless the Lord, O my soul!” In these verses,
He looks down, and looks about, to the power of God shining in this lower world. He is not so taken up with the glories of his court as to neglect even the remotest of his territories; no, not the sea and dry land.
He has founded the earth, Ps. 104:5. Though he has hung it upon nothing (Job 26:2), ponderibus librata suis—balanced by its own weight, yet it is as immovable as if it had been laid upon the surest foundations. He has built the earth upon her basis, so that though it has received a dangerous shock by the sin of man, and the malice of hell strikes at it, yet it shall not be removed for ever, that is, not till the end of time, when it must give way to the new earth. Dr. Hammond’s paraphrase of this is worth noting: “God has fixed so strange a place for the earth, that, being a heavy body, one would think it should fall every minute; and yet, which way soever we would imagine it to stir, it must, contrary to the nature of such a body, fall upwards, and so can have no possible ruin but by tumbling into heaven.”
I may continue to look for more comments on this subject later.Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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