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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
asauber, It's consistent with that used by virtually everyone who writes about this subject. It's also consistent with a dictionary definition of "infinite" that KF and I had agreed upon earlier. If you have any suggestions for improvement, you're welcome to state them.daveS
July 31, 2017
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under the definition I am using
daveS, I'm not sure why you think your definition is meaningful. Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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Latemarch, There is a large difference----under the definition I am using, an infinite past need not include any times infinitely remote from the present. Therefore you can't make the argument that the present is unreachable from some point in the past.daveS
July 31, 2017
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daveS, Ah, I missed the "any". My bad. So now we're to a distinction without a difference. Since it's "not finite" it is therefore infinite and again you cannot arrive at today. I can see we are not going to come to terms here.Latemarch
July 31, 2017
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Latemarch, No, it can't be reduced to that. It would be correct to say that if for every positive integer n, the universe is greater than n years old, then the past is infinite. To clarify further: I'm not saying that "if the universe is greater than n years old for some positive integer n, then the past is infinite". The condition has to hold for every (or any, as I wrote above) positive integer n.daveS
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac @26:
Have you ever wondered why such a waste of the beautiful universe and the Earth?
Interesting question. Thank you for asking it. Who made it all? I didn't. Did you? How was it all made? I don't know. Do you? How much did it cost to make it? I don't know. Do you? Why was it all made? I don't know. Do you? What was it all made for? I don't know. Do you? What's the Creator's plan? I don't know. Do you? But I know He has revealed to His people at least the part of His plan that relates to this world and this age of grace. And it is wonderful, as far as I can understand it. Definitely it could have been much worse, but it couldn't be better. Don't take my word. Research it yourself. Perhaps God will reveal it to you too. He loves you. I know it because He has proved beyond doubt that He loves me and I'm certain that I'm not better than you. I'll look at your other interesting questions later.Dionisio
July 31, 2017
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J-Mac @ 48: Great question. Let's see how the a/mats respond.Truth Will Set You Free
July 31, 2017
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daveS,
The statement “the past is infinite” simply means that the past is not finite. This would obtain if there is no particular finite value n such that the universe is less than n (years, say) old. Put more directly, given any positive integer n, the universe is greater than n years old.
The universe is greater than 5,000 years old: Therefore the the universe is infinitely old.....really? That's what the above can be reduced to.Latemarch
July 31, 2017
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If infinite dimensions are fundamental to a quantum description of almost all physical systems, why can't the originator of those physical laws that allow infinite dimensions have infinite dimensions and consequently have no beginning and no end or be eternal?J-Mac
July 31, 2017
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Latemarch, Who's playing the role of Humpty Dumpty here? I'm going by the definition that is found in virtually all literature on this subject, while you are insisting on an idiosyncratic definition no one uses, as far as I can tell. Let me explain why I think it's a reasonable one. What is a finite past? That would be a past where the age of the universe is less than some particular finite value. For example, the universe could be less than 15 billion years old---that's a finite past. The statement "the past is infinite" simply means that the past is not finite. This would obtain if there is no particular finite value n such that the universe is less than n (years, say) old. Put more directly, given any positive integer n, the universe is greater than n years old. I don't believe you can prove that assuming the above statement is true, there must exist some point in the past which occurred infinitely many years ago.daveS
July 31, 2017
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Latemarch @ 45, daveS has a tendency to kinda sorta have an actual position on some things, unless he needs to avoid being pinned down, then he kinda sorta doesn't. Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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daveS@44 You're welcome to Humpty Dumpty your way out of the problem but don't expect me to assent to your definition or that of others that try to squirm out of the logical trap.Latemarch
July 31, 2017
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Latemarch, If usage is at all important, that's not what "infinite past" means to virtually all those who write on this subject. I know of one exception from the mid 1970's. Essentially no one takes "infinite past" to imply the existence of particular points in time infinitely removed from the present.daveS
July 31, 2017
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daveS,
The issue is the assumption of starting at some point infinitely remote from the present.
That's what an infinite past means. Otherwise it's not infinite. Always traveling, never arriving. You can't arrive at today. You can't arrive at yesterday. You can't arrive at any finite time in the past.Latemarch
July 31, 2017
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Yes, have you read the Snoke article yourself?
No, because I found a major problem in the excerpts, and I suspect the problem isn't fixed in the rest of the article. See my comment @ #2. Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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asauber,
You are acting like you haven’t read the OP. Have you read the OP?
Yes, have you read the Snoke article yourself?daveS
July 31, 2017
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Latemarch,
daveS, If you start today will you ever arrive at an infinite future? No, always traveling, never arriving.
True.
So if you start in an infinite past how can you ever arrive at today? Yet, here we are…..so the past cannot be infinite.
KF and I discussed this point at length in some previous threads. The issue is the assumption of starting at some point infinitely remote from the present. But models of an infinite past (usually) don't include such points. All past points are finitely remote from the present. And a traversal through an infinite past in that case would have no starting point. Gotta run for a while, but I'll check in later.daveS
July 31, 2017
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daveS, You are acting like you haven't read the OP. Have you read the OP? Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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Appealing to infinity is not an explanation. It's the avoidance of an explanation. Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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daveS, If you start today will you ever arrive at an infinite future? No, always traveling, never arriving. So if you start in an infinite past how can you ever arrive at today? Yet, here we are.....so the past cannot be infinite.Latemarch
July 31, 2017
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asauber,
I just did. The problem is infinite regress (infinite past). Are you comprehending?
Infinite regress of what? You haven't shown that there is an infinite regress of explanations, since no explanations have been offered.daveS
July 31, 2017
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It’s your job to identify the logical problem here.
I just did. The problem is infinite regress (infinite past). Are you comprehending? Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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asauber,
Which is what you attempted to do.
No, I didn't attempt to do anything; certainly I didn't offer any "explanation" for an infinite past. It's your job to identify the logical problem here.daveS
July 31, 2017
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daveS, This is a brief summary that I found: "infinite regress - a fallacy in which the argument proposes an explanation, but the mechanism proposed stands just as much in need of explanation as the original fact to be explained — and indeed it stands in need of the same kind of explanation. so it is tempting to apply the explanation to itself." Which is what you attempted to do. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=infinite%20regress Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence
I don't like the New England Patriots, so I don't think they should use Tom Brady. John Calvin way back in 1536 had something to say about man's arguments for and against the existence of God. "Stupid is as stupid does" hasn't evolved one bit in all these years.
11. Bright, however, as is the manifestation which God gives both of himself and his immortal kingdom in the mirror of his works, so great is our stupidity, so dull are we in regard to these bright manifestations, that we derive no benefit from them. For in regard to the fabric and admirable arrangement of the universe, how few of us are there who, in lifting our eyes to the heavens, or looking abroad on the various regions of the earth, ever think of the Creator? Do we not rather overlook Him, and sluggishly content ourselves with a view of his works? And then in regard to supernatural events, though these are occurring every day, how few are there who ascribe them to the ruling providence of God—how many who imagine that they are casual results produced by the blind evolutions of the wheel of chance? Even when under the guidance and direction of these events, we are in a manner forced to the contemplation of God (a circumstance which all must occasionally experience), and are thus led to form some impressions of Deity, we immediately fly off to carnal dreams and depraved fictions, and so by our vanity corrupt heavenly truth. -- John Calvin -- Institutes (1536) Chapter 5: THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD CONSPICUOUS IN THE CREATION, AND CONTINUAL GOVERNMENT OF THE WORLD.
awstar
July 31, 2017
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asauber,
I will. But first I am going to ask you a question. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
No, any obtuseness on my part is unintentional.daveS
July 31, 2017
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daveS, I will. But first I am going to ask you a question. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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asauber,
Asserting an infinite past presents a logical problem. That’s what this thread is about.
Could you describe this logical problem?daveS
July 31, 2017
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What logical problem is there to be solved?
Asserting an infinite past presents a logical problem. That's what this thread is about. Andrewasauber
July 31, 2017
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asauber, What logical problem is there to be solved? In any case, we are told up front that the hotel is infinite, so the process Snoke and I described obviously would be infinite.daveS
July 31, 2017
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