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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
Asauber and I were merely pointing out that a/mats often use infinity to rationalize their beliefs without having to show real evidence
Yes, they use the infinite as their God Substitute, hoping no one will notice that their position is completely unscientific, while simultaneously banging on about science. Andrewasauber
August 2, 2017
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Pindi @ 115: Eternity has a beginning but no end, while infinity has no beginning or end. God has always existed (like infinity) but resides in eternity, which is a place/state that has a beginning but no end. That's my thinking anyway. Asauber and I were merely pointing out that a/mats often use infinity to rationalize their beliefs without having to show real evidence, i.e. anything can happen given an infinite number of opportunities. The one thing that they never seem to consider is that God might just be one of those "things."Truth Will Set You Free
August 2, 2017
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TWSYF and Asauber, why is the concept of infinity limited to secularists? Isn't it a religious concept also? Life in heaven is eternal I thought? And God always existed?Pindi
August 2, 2017
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EricMH, I don't think I understand your objection.
But, this is not the right concept for the past, since the past does not keep lengthening unboundedly as the future does.
Which concept is that?
The past has already happened. If the past is an infinitely large set, then everything in that set has to occur before the present can occur, and we are stuck with the same problem.
I agree with the first sentence and with the first half of the second, but I don't understand what this problem is that you refer to.daveS
August 2, 2017
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@DaveS, You are right. But, this is not the right concept for the past, since the past does not keep lengthening unboundedly as the future does. The past has already happened. If the past is an infinitely large set, then everything in that set has to occur before the present can occur, and we are stuck with the same problem. Plus, this same problem applies to any member in the set, so nothing can occur if the past is infinite. An infinite past cannot exist.EricMH
August 2, 2017
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EricMH, Yes, but it has finite length.daveS
August 2, 2017
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@DaveS, the subset of real numbers from 0 to 1 has infinite members and endpoints.EricMH
August 2, 2017
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asauber @ 105: "Infinity is the secularists own flying spaghetti monster, and do they ever love the idea of it so dearly." So true.Truth Will Set You Free
August 2, 2017
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tribune7, Yes, I agree that the First Cause argument could still be valid. That's above my pay grade, however.daveS
August 2, 2017
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Mung,
Since you can allegedly identify particular moments of time as “the present,” please travel back in time an infinite amount of time and label that moment of time that you arrive at, “the present.”
In my understanding (or model) of time, there are no two moments separated by an infinite time interval, so what you describe is impossible. What you are asking me to do is like starting at 0 on the real number line, then travelling an infinite distance in the negative direction, and then labeling the resulting location with an "x". There is no such point on the real number line, so it can't be done.daveS
August 2, 2017
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DaveS -- I think we’re pretty close on the question I posed then. So far I haven’t found any reason to doubt that an infinite past is logically or mathematically possible. -- Agreed. OTOH, The First Cause argument is still a valid one. Infinity is within the understanding of man. What caused infinity is not. That physical laws exist and what they are are within the understanding of man. That physical laws can account for physical laws is ridiculous, however. IOW, The First Cause for the existence of physical laws is a legitimate argument for the necessity of something not bound by physical laws i.e. God.tribune7
August 2, 2017
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daveS
Yes, I am assuming we can identify particular moments in time as the present. Say noon today, my time. How is that a problem?
Since you can allegedly identify particular moments of time as "the present," please travel back in time an infinite amount of time and label that moment of time that you arrive at, "the present." You should have no problem finding that moment so that you can label it.Mung
August 2, 2017
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Infinity is the secularists own flying spaghetti monster, and do they ever love the idea of it so dearly. Andrewasauber
August 2, 2017
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tribune7, I think we're pretty close on the question I posed then. So far I haven't found any reason to doubt that an infinite past is logically or mathematically possible.daveS
August 2, 2017
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One of the issues here is people think if they can imagine infinity, it must be possible. The trouble is that you can't even imagine it. You can imagine it's possibility, but that's it. Not science, in any case. Andrewasauber
August 2, 2017
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Reading these comments, I find I don't have an understanding of infinity, but I sure have a feeling for it.Belfast
August 1, 2017
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J-Mac Did you see this @63 & @66? tell me who is this verse referring to? PS 37:29 (ESV) “The righteous shall inherit the land     and dwell upon it forever.” Who is the righteous? Do you know? Buddy, you're staying behind wrt answering questions. Are you tired? :) BTW, it seems like the post numbers in this thread have increased +1 because many references are shifted.Dionisio
August 1, 2017
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J-Mac @ 49
If infinite dimensions are fundamental to a quantum description of almost all physical systems, why can’t the originator of those physical laws that allow infinite dimensions have infinite dimensions and consequently have no beginning and no end or be eternal?
If the Universe were infinitely extended in all dimensions, including time, then there would be no origin or creation point and, hence, no originator or creator. There, that wasn't difficult.Seversky
August 1, 2017
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DaveS, is an infinite past (and future) logically or mathematically impossible? Logically, of course. Christians assume such a thing. And mathematically also possible. Math assumes the infinite if you think about it. The thing that is illogical is to deny the Creation event and assume Creation -- what Man can grasp -- always existed.tribune7
August 1, 2017
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EricMH,
if each point always has a finite coordinate, then necessarily the distance between them is always finite.
Yes.
If our line has no ends, then we just pick a subset of the unending line that is also an infinite line, but with endpoints. There is an infinite distance between these two points, and we can never reach one from the other.
Can you describe this in more detail? I'm assuming we're talking about subsets of the real numbers. In that case, there are no subsets of R with endpoints which are infinite in length.daveS
August 1, 2017
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tribune7, Yes, those are very difficult questions. My goal is very modest, however. Is an infinite past logically or mathematically impossible? I think that's a question that humans can address.daveS
August 1, 2017
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@94 DaveS, if each point always has a finite coordinate, then necessarily the distance between them is always finite. If our line has no ends, then we just pick a subset of the unending line that is also an infinite line, but with endpoints. There is an infinite distance between these two points, and we can never reach one from the other. So, the Kalaam argument works for an infinite line.EricMH
August 1, 2017
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DaveS, you seem to be approaching the "Who made God" question. My view is that it is something axiomatically incapable of being addressed by the mind of man. You are taking about infinity i.e. eternity. OK, that's a basic Christian concept that is part of reality but our minds cannot deal with the infinite. We can only deal with the temporal. IOW, there is no point in trying to figure out what happened before the Big Bang.tribune7
August 1, 2017
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Drink your juice box, Andrew! :PdaveS
August 1, 2017
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the position I am describing
In infinity, you don't have a position. Infinity removes positions. Andrewasauber
August 1, 2017
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Latemarch, Yes, I am assuming that we both understand the meaning of "present" and that the present exists in some sense. I'm not trying to prove that, however, so I'm not begging the question. In fact, I'm probably assuming many of the standard "facts" about time that you do, but with the additional hypothesis that the past is infinite. I am just claiming that no one will be able to derive a logical/mathematical contradiction from the position I am describing.
You may be arriving somewhere, but not here and now.
Why not? I don't understand this. Suppose I were arriving at a point not now, but two weeks ago. Then I would have "arrived" "here and now" from the point of view of two weeks ago.daveS
August 1, 2017
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Dionisio@62 What's the meaning of the original word used in the verse you quoted that was translated to land there? ziemia- in Polish tierra-in Spanish earth-in EnglishJ-Mac
August 1, 2017
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Ok,
On the second point, if you’re always traveling, then you’re always arriving somewhere.
You may be arriving somewhere, but not here and now. That is the point. I'll admit that I'm not very smart. It took me a while of rereading your arguments to find the flaw that ET, asauber, and tribune7 highlighted, though not directly. Look up begging the question. You'll see that you are assuming the present, the point of the whole argument that we are having.Latemarch
August 1, 2017
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So we can try to identify the present with a value, but the identification only means something in reference to a beginning. If no beginning, nothing to reference. Andrewasauber
August 1, 2017
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daveS wants to be able to travel back in time to reach the present.Mung
August 1, 2017
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