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Prominent Atheists Fundamentally Misunderstand First-Cause Arguments

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Recently, a debate was held in London between theist philosopher Rabbi Daniel Rowe and atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling. The subject under dispute, unsurprisingly, was God’s existence. It’s a very interesting debate to watch. I’d never heard of Rowe before, but I was familiar with Grayling, who is sometimes referred to as the Fifth Horseman of New Atheism.

Generally speaking, the “New Atheists” haven’t shown any natural genius for philosophy. Grayling, though being a professional philosopher, does not prove to be the exception here. Instead, he shows that even when they have the benefit of philosophical training, it does them very little good when they engage in debates over God’s existence. I think it would be pretty uncontroversial to say that Rowe won the debate rather decisively. Grayling often seemed so far out of his depth that it was even making me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how Grayling must have been feeling.

In an article at ENV, David Klinghoffer has pointed out that Jerry Coyne agrees. Writing at his blog, Why Evolution is True, Coyne says:

I have to admit to finding the prospect of an orthodox rabbi holding his own in a debate with Dr. Grayling on God’s existence rather disheartening, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what went down the other night in London.

If there’s anything inaccurate in this description of the debate it’s Coyne’s characterization of Rowe as merely “holding his own”.  Anyone who watches the debate will see that Rowe did much more than that. What I want to comment on, however, is the argument that Coyne thinks he would have used were he in Grayling’s shoes, because it demonstrates that prominent figures within the New Atheism movement (or whatever you want to call it), for all their bluster about the failure of arguments for God’s existence, often don’t even understand the arguments.

Coyne begins:

The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.

Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:

The rabbi made three arguments:

  • You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.”

I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.

Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.

Furthermore, Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.

All that having been said, Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:

Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind?

The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God).

What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past, and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all.

Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct.

The argument can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either:

A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all, or

B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional.

We can then consider the implications of these two options.

If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. Option A, therefore, must be false.

This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power.

Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent, but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God.

When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.

Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.

HeKS

Comments
MW, Locke simply was not that imagined deist so many have suggested. And here he puts his finger, richly biblically informed, on ever so much of the error of our time. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2016
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Very good that quote, KF: "The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly."mw
July 12, 2016
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SS, I suggest that you ponder Thomas the Twin, here in context (and also here in context) on the imposition of unreasonable selectively hyperskeptical demands regarding warrant to moral certainty when there is adequate evidence already in hand. KF PS: Locke, in Section 5 of his introduction to his essay on human understanding, has some choice words:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations.]
--> I add, that selective hyperskepticism is of no greater weight than global hyperskpeticism.kairosfocus
July 12, 2016
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Sean, # 242: “So you all need to give science some time to do its work. Considering from where it started, evolutionary biology has made enormous strides.” ________________________________ It seems that by such an admission, “give science some time to do its work,” things are not going too well for consensus scientific evolution theory, and the work is lacking in clear evidence. Lacking a law. Lacking direct experimental reproducible unequivocal proof. Shall we “all” agree therefore; it is still at some type of faith stage in its major pillars of assertions. Still, the pied piper from Down many follow, endowed himself with a form of theological religiosity, which now the party line adheres to dogmatically. Biological evolutions proceed, according to Darwin, in imperceptible steps, never observed. Therefore, surely, we “all” will be waiting for eternity to see a transitional life form appear. (I was going to write, ‘another transitional life form,’ but I thought, steady, mw). That “all” will in due course arrive at the Grand Palace of Darwinia (just made that up), the sublime state of the perfection of fitness for each and every one who survives by any means possible. Even then, a person will still want to be the alpha male, by hook or by crook in pride of fitness, something akin to Satan, which hypothetically, could lead to an evolutionary fall. However, imaginary speculation apart, of which your master Darwin was past master; you introduce a ‘show stopper’: Judaeo-Christianity is wrong because there are other belief systems. Indeed, there are. Still, other faiths or belief systems may only indicate that the world is held together by mind, thought, and belief. Yet, in fairness, in all belief systems, including atheism, there are people who try to do good, again which suggest a little common good underlying religions not hell bent on destruction such as IS, and which suggest something sinister also underlies humanity. Nevertheless, in Witchcraft, such really proves that evil is a force that may be allowed to be harnessed to do some persons will. Evidence for the dark lord. I cite two books for consideration: “But Deliver Us From Evil: An introduction to the demonic dimension in pastoral care” by John Richards (London: Longman & Todd), 1974): and “From Witchcraft to Christ” by Doreen Irvine (Eastbourne UK: Kingsway) 1944). Cleary, Sean, there is no place for Satan in evolutionism. What a strategic stroke the “prince of this world” has pulled. Please do not tell my there is no evidence for evil, or evolutionary evil makes us fitter? Of course, you may want to reduce such to Mickey Mouse belief. Of course, we cannot possibly know in detail relative to mind, what soul and spirit, actually are. Many have made a free will choice on the basis of a belief in a theory that life comes from dead, lifeless matter. That dead matter will naturally ascend into a living operational coordinated unit, pre-assembled by unknown means, produce vegetable life, and every ascending order of life forms from dust. Such a belief system defies common sense and common logic. However, it demonstrates a common problem with humanity, to be as a god in lieu of our own knowledge. To be subject to no God. Yet God subjected Himself to us in terms of Judaeo-Christianity. The principle of sacrifice underlies all life forms, and in some way; from the least to the Almighty. Check it out Sean, it works every time. The fittest, is He who would sacrifice His All, for the “all,” at our worst, for loves sake, and the common Good. Please excuse me for what may seem as going off topic somewhat in order to answer my interlocutor. But under “General interest, Logic and First Principles of right reason, Philosophy, Science, Philosophy and (Natural) Theology,” it may be just squeeze in of interest. Thanks Sean for your comments.mw
July 12, 2016
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PPS: I note, the clip in which Locke cites Hooker using the Golden Rule and where Hooker draws out Paul in Rom 1 - 2 by pointing onwards to Aristotle as illustrative of how core governing morality is stamped in the human conscience, which SS has repeatedly distorted:
[Locke, 2nd treatise on civil gov't, Ch 2 sec 5, quoting Hooker in his Ecclesiastical Polity:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men [--> in other words, he points out the reciprocity of the Golden Rule of Moshe, Jesus and Paul] . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection [--> paraphrases the rule in terms of moral consistency]. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves [--> appeals to equality of valuable nature, rooted in the common image of God, which is as opposed to the direct, amoral and nihilistic import of evolutionary materialism that might and/or manipulation makes 'right' - 'truth' - 'meaning' etc] , what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant [--> an allusion to Paul in Rom 2:12 - 14 and 13:8 - 10 on how God has given us a moral compass that guides reason and action producing a core of understanding of morality] . . .
[--> these teach us so that we come to knowledge of morality: warranted, credibly true beliefs; of course, this is not the basis for that warrant, that lies in a world-foundational, world-root, world-source IS that inherently grounds OUGHT. And therein lieth a deep root of hyperskepticism on this, for if we are inherently -- by patent facts of our nature as responsibly free and rational, valuable beings -- under moral government and moral law, it points straight to a world root level Lawgiver and Governor. That is, to the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our nature]
[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80.]
The rhetorical gambit of setting up what I cited, as a strawman used to evade the issue of a world root level IS that can properly bear the weight of OUGHT -- a first cause of the moral order of reality -- fails.kairosfocus
July 12, 2016
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SS, First, postponing the first cause through a sequence of prior -- utterly speculative -- universes does not change the force of the logic pointing to such. But the contrast between your demand to see God face to face and willingness to put up unsupported speculations to avert the force of facts and logic we do see speaks diagnostically and tellingly: selective hyperskepticism. Next, the attempt to play anti-authoritarian as though citing sources can be dismissed as a fallacy without actually facing the substantial issue is a gross error of irrelevancy and projection. Indeed, it manifests the gross error of refusing to learn from classical insights per the error of imagining that we can tell the truth by the clock as the past has nothing of significance to teach us and can be dismissed out of hand. This vulgar progressivist error leads to marches of intellectually fashionable manipulated agenda driven folly. For, he who refuses to learn lessons from sound history (including the history of ideas) dooms himself to relive or at minimum echo its worst chapters. We can, and will do better. Plato put forward a frame of thought in which the first cause can be seen at two levels: first, agency with significant freedom --
(i.e. the self-moved . . . and especially the rationally and responsibly, freely moved . . . as opposed to the blindly moved by a causal chain of mechanical necessity and/or chance)
. . . then, the self moved agent responsible for the cosmos. His key words, that we would do well to attend to:
Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly.
Such agency with responsible, rational freedom of action based on being self-moved is a valuable concept. Especially given the contrast between, say, Crick's self referential absurdity in his The Astonishing Hypothesis:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
. . . and say Reppert, in his exposure of the GIGO-driven absence of foundation for rationality in such mechanistic accounts:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
Where, absent such significant, responsible, rational freedom of action, there is no basis for even having a reasoned discussion. Naturalistic schemes of thought that radically undermine agency are self-referentially absurd. No wonder, Philip Johnson has therefore replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [Reason in the Balance, 1995.] I have long since pointed to Eng Derek Smith's two-tier controller cybernetic loop model as a context in which we may model and discuss self-moved agency with profit. And, I have taken up the suggestion that information flows and quantum influences may be useful possibilities for effective means. Now, too, Aristotle put on the table a frame for discussing causal explanation that has significant merit down to today, especially for those things that show signs of intent and art in their structure. Namely, we see --
a] the form or organisation and information that shapes an entity (which can come out in its "blueprint" or design), b] the material components used to provide its substance and properties, c] that which directly shapes, assembles or actuates it, often through an organised sequence of forced, ordered motion [= work, physical sense] such as chiseling, d] the purpose or end which underlies the forming of the entity and which therefore raises the issue of the means-end match
Such obviously speaks to the operations of agency, thus self-moved, initiating first causes. Of course in our day, we emphasise mechanistic and/or chance driven actuation or shaping, and a dominant worldview is driven by evolutionary materialism. So, we have endless and ironically self-induced, self referential trouble moving beyond signals and blind mechanism to creative forming information, organisation by design and intent. As the pages and threads of UD have so often shown, many are literally willing to burn down reason itself to maintain their materialistic, lab coat clad worldview. In that context, classical references can and do provide a context for fresh insights and reasonable discussion. However, regrettably, so far you seem to be studiously avoiding such at substantial level. We are agents, credibly self-moved per responsible, rational freedom of action. That is, ensouled, rational, morally governed, contingent first causes. Not, blindly driven and utterly controlled by the iron grip of GIGO -- garbage in, garbage out -- acting through mechanical necessity and/or chance. Absent that, not even this discussion can be a real meeting of minds free to respond to rational insight and the pervasive sense of responsibility. Absent something very much like an ensouled, en-conscienced, rationally and responsibly free self-moved first cause in our own bodies, rationality itself collapses into absurdity. The absurdity of evolutionary materialistic scientism and its failed self-falsifying evolutionary epistemology. In light of this familiar context of our own case, it is then quite reasonable to ponder the deep root of the world we inhabit, and to keep on the table the issue of a self-moved rational first cause as a serious candidate. Which then acts with double force once we ponder that we are inescapably morally governed. Thus, at world root we need an IS capable of grounding OUGHT. Also, something capable of grounding a cosmos of extension in space-time that is inherently contingent. That per general view of the relevant sciences originated . . . began, thus is credibly caused and dependent on external, enabling factors . . . at a singularity some 13.8 BYA. Moreover, we can see that were there ever utter and only non-being (which has no causal powers) then such would forever obtain. So, as a world now is, something always was, something that at root is independent of external enabling factors, something of the character of a necessary being. Something that is so framing for a world to be that once a world is actual or possible, it must exist without beginning or end. That, as if an entity N has no dependence on external, enabling on/off causal factors, it must always be. (Ponder how two-ness could begin or cease, i/l/o its direct connexion to distinct identity.) A serious candidate to be of order N, then, would be one of two things: impossible as a square circle is impossible, or actual and present in ANY possible world. (Ponder how a world -- a domain of reality -- could be without distinct identity and two-ness, thus also the triune first principles of right reason: LOI, LNC, LEM.) Moreover, the issue of possibility/ impossibility of being provides a minimal explanatory context that justifies that a weak form, investigatory principle of sufficient reason is also a legitimate first principle of right reason. Once something is, holds distinct identity, or may be [is possible], it must hold core characteristics that are coherent, as opposed to a square circle. So, if we ponder something that is, or that is candidate to be possible, we may freely ask why and confidently expect or hope to find a reasonable explanation. Where, if there is incoherence of core characteristics, the candidate C is impossible of being in any world. Think, again, square circle. If it is possible, of order P, it is so in the first instance because its core characteristics are coherent. If actual, it may be contingent and caused as enabling on/off factors are favourable (think, a fire and the fire triangle or better yet tetrahedron). Or, it may be necessary, independent of such enabling factors and also an inextricable part of the framework for any world to exist (ponder distinct identity and two-ness etc). So, we have a context of reasons regarding candidate beings, C to be of orders P and N: possible and necessary. Where also, per signs of a fine tuned physical order that supports C-Chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life, we credibly need a purposeful, deeply knowledgeable, powerful designer; of order D. And with a moral order on the table, to ground actual [not merely delusional] moral government, we need a designer of moral order, M. Such a serious candidate is now P, N, D, M, which requires self-moved mindedness and moral character, that is personhood is also naturally on the table. In this light, we may understand why, after centuries of debate, there is just one serious candidate to explain a world in which responsibly and rationally free, actually morally governed (not just, morality is a delusion shaped by might and manipulation make 'right' etc) beings exist:
the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, first cause of the cosmos, worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.
This is of course a philosophical proposition. If one objects s/he is invited to simply put up an alternative serious candidate and engage in comparative difficulties discussion: _______________ . (Predictably, on long experience, that blank will continue to be unfilled.) So, the issue of first cause is significant. KF PS: I see you are still purveying the notion that the principle of mutual respect and cherishing among quasi-infinitely valuable, morally governed, responsibly and rationally free contingent individuals needs no further explanation. And, that I suggested such an absurdity. Kindly, never again misrepresent what I have actually said in this way.kairosfocus
July 12, 2016
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jcfrk101; regarding #236 Assuming everything you wrote is correct, no reasonable person can believe in your deity unless that deity personally, face-to-face, reveals himself. Having never been so favored, I cannot in good conscience believe anything you wrote. sean s.sean samis
July 11, 2016
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mw; Regarding #235
Judaeo-Christian scripture is laden with tantalising proof.
Ah, no. It’s full of tantalizing claims, but nothing that rises near the level of proof.
That the First Cause walked the earth in flesh, is unprovable; it is a matter of faith, based on the sound evidence of witnesses, having seen the unbelievable.
Exactly: unprovable. These witness claims are unbelievable unless one has a favorable prejudice; which is what faith is.
A proof exists in an unbroken historic chain of worship from Sinai, when a prime miraculous event set a weekly reminder that Yahweh created in six days.
That’s not proof because one must have a favorable prejudice (i.e. faith) to believe the story in the first place. And Hindu religions have been around at least as long as the Abrahamic religions; does their unbroken historic chain of worship (as established in the Vedas) prove their deities?
If the Word of “I am” is not sufficient, nothing will suffice.
Stories written by fallible men of a deity who these men claim to have said “I am” are not sufficient.
The burden of proof rests with you Sean; flawed is divine law. That if you were the Almighty, it could not be done in that manner as the Almighty stated at Sinai.
It could have been done as the stories say at Sinai. Or it could have been done as the Vedas say. Or it could have been done as the traditions at Karnak said. Or it could have been done as the Norse said. Or it could have been done as the Cheyanne said. Or ... Or ... Or ... What I have is a lack of explanations why I should believe any of them.
My proof is not a hand waving exercise in imaginary explanations...
Actually, your “proof” is just stories you want me to believe because you say so.
... the burden of proof Sean also rests on you to demonstrate life comes from none life, which expanded and colonised the globe through copying errors (mutations), brainless natural selection, in an ever-increasing information and design output; all from a single cell, itself arranging itself, and covering itself in a membrane interspersed with pumps to remove waste and deliver in coming necessities.
Your description of evolution is colorful, but the basic point is valid: science has a burden to make its explanation credible too. You and your religious writers have been at it unsuccessfully for thousands of years. Evolutionary theory is less than 200 years old, DNA was identified as the physical expression of genetics about the same time I was born. So you all need to give science some time to do its work. Considering from where it started, evolutionary biology has made enormous strides. That, of course, is what worries you. sean s.sean samis
July 11, 2016
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RH7, pardon but once distinct identity applies, instantly LOI, LEM & LNC are applicable. Otherwise, meaningful communication vanishes. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2016
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jcfrk101, pardon but once distinct identity applies, instantly LOI, LEM & LNC are applicable. Otherwise, meaningful communication vanishes. And BTW, in the Christian Tradition, The Logos who struck a tent in human flesh and tabernacled among us is rational communication himself. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2016
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KF; Regarding #234;
...the first, root cause and necessary being of the world — including inherently contingent extensions and matter and beings governed by ought — cannot be material.
It certainly cannot be “material” from our universe (since it created our universe) but it certainly can be what serves as “material” in its own universe/multiverse. As for the “material world” grounding ought, you and I have done that one at great length. The reason that morality can be grounded in nature, history, human need, etc. is known, moreover: you supplied the idea! Personally, I love irony. sean s.sean samis
July 11, 2016
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HeKS; From the OP:
Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.
I commented on some of these in #38. In # 41 (by Silver Asiatic)
An intelligent designer existing before the Cosmic Inflation, having created the laws, forces and material properties that developed into the universe as we observe it is a very reasonable proposition in this case. What is the alternative? We see no evidence that matter itself can “Bang” itself into the ordered development of the universe as we see it. ... The First Cause cannot be a mere “thing” among things. And the reason for that has nothing to do with the properties of intelligence or mind. But to observe entities that exist and act with purpose points to a source of purpose or plan – thus a Designer possessing the capablities of mind, intelligence and designing powers.
I responded to SA in #46. Origenes responded to me (about designers) in #50. KF commented in #80:
For this thread, it is enough to see that design objectors frequently have problems starting with first, self evident principles of right reason, leading to hopeless and incorrigible confusions and unacknowledged self-falsifying self-referential contradictions all down the line from that point.
and #84:
...Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos. ...
SA replied further to me in #127:
The designer does not need to be observed in order to be a logically consistent entity proposed as the originator of the universe. ... The designer does not need to be observed in order to be a logically consistent entity proposed as the originator of the universe. ... In theological research we look at information which may have been received from beyond this universe. But aside from that, even from what we can observe – we see purpose, goals, motives, intent, planning, design.
KF repeated his comments in # 130. It’s in #160 that KF suddenly declares:
This thread, FYI, is a discussion of philosophical issues, not of design theory.
It may not have been your desire to discuss design theory, but you muddied the waters at the end of the OP, and Silver Asiatic, Origenes, and KF happily joined me in that discussion; until KF changed his mind. mw has also joined in. Your “passing reference in the last paragraph mentioning Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning Argument” is a bit too bulky and assertive for a “passing reference”. You opened the door; the horses ran out; whose fault is that? sean s.sean samis
July 11, 2016
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KF; In #229 I challenged you:
Unless you are going to state here and now that Plato was, in all ways, infallible and inerrant, then your invocation of Plato’s name is valueless. Ditto for anyone else whose words you invoke. Your definition of a first cause is unfounded. Other than invoking Great Men, you cannot establish that the first cause must have been a “living soul” or had any attributes of personhood. It might have been, but it could just as well have been as non-living as a cloud.
Your response came in #232:
I am not invoking Plato as infallible authority (your projection smacks of strawman caricature with patent subtext, you fundy looking for an inerrant text). I am pointing out that he — a root source of this whole discussion in the history of ideas — identified a characteristic of being a self-moved actuating initiating cause connected to agency, which he termed soul. In that context, we would be first causes, even as contingent beings. Then, he pointed to the first cause of the world. I note on the classic view of the four causes/explanations, per Ari, here, Wiki for convenience: ...
The bulk of the remainder of your response is yet another set of quotes amounting to about 700 words. Let me be crystal clear: quotes from Plato, Aristotle, or other writers PROVE NOTHING. And they obscure your argument. You do have an argument, don’t you? Do you have no ideas of your own? Are you merely a font of other peoples’ words? Or do you use their words as a fig-leaf to cover your lack of understanding? Has there been nothing in the last—oh—23 centuries discovered on this topic? Was this subject fully explored and elucidated before Jesus of Nazareth? In the intervening centuries, has no person made any relevant discoveries of facts related to this question? Why must the first cause have been a living soul? Is there a good reason? Or just a dusty old parchment somewhere that says "it is so"? sean s.sean samis
July 11, 2016
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LNC or any other mathematical principle, or equality, or corollaries cannot be applied to the nature of God. Given that he must exist outside of space and time, His being is not created, therefore using methods and mechanisms tested and tried on created beings will not translate as you are dealing with something other than creation. Your own mind and logic is not capable of testing or validating the claim , it can only be observed. If God existed within time and space, he would be bound by time and space, nor a sufficient explanation for time and space. If his being is not bound by time and space, I do not know how any other form of mathematics or logic can be applied to determine his nature, it can only be determined by observation. This is the basis of the trinity, observed being revealed within the scriptures by the incarnation of God's Son, the words he spoke and the coming of His Spirit.jcfrk101
July 11, 2016
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Thanks Sean for your reply: "No, the burden is on you to prove God did what you claim God did." ________________________ The burden of proof is on me to prove God! Steady Sean. Judaeo-Christian scripture is laden with tantalising proof. That the First Cause walked the earth in flesh, is unprovable; it is a matter of faith, based on the sound evidence of witnesses, having seen the unbelievable. A proof exists in an unbroken historic chain of worship from Sinai, when a prime miraculous event set a weekly reminder that Yahweh created in six days. Such cannot be proved. We have only the written or inspired word of God, and even that now cannot be proved. If the Word of “I am” is not sufficient, nothing will suffice. The burden of proof rests with you Sean; flawed is divine law. That if you were the Almighty, it could not be done in that manner as the Almighty stated at Sinai. Further, the burden of proof Sean also rests on you to demonstrate life comes from none life, which expanded and colonised the globe through copying errors (mutations), brainless natural selection, in an ever-increasing information and design output; all from a single cell, itself arranging itself, and covering itself in a membrane interspersed with pumps to remove waste and deliver in coming necessities. My proof is not a hand waving exercise in imaginary explanations, but it is the hallmark of Darwinism.mw
July 11, 2016
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SS, you can say all you will, that the material world grounds ought. The track record will readily show that matter-energy and space-time simply cannot be the IS that grounds OUGHT, moral government. Saying and substituting other things cannot make it so; it ends in might and manipulation make 'right' - 'truth' - 'meaning' etc, i.e. in fatal nihilism. Also, the first, root cause and necessary being of the world -- including inherently contingent extensions and matter and beings governed by ought -- cannot be material. As already noted, just one serious candidate has been able to stand on the table through centuries of debates. The vagueness and evasiveness of your attempt just now (including trying a burden of proof shift in a context where we should be seeing comparative difficulties) shows just how thin the soup you must work with is. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2016
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sean samis, I am indeed a Firefly fan and did get the reference. Mine was from "The Friendly Giant", which was a Canadian children's show I watched as a kid in the 80's. Your reference was better :) On to your comments... I tag a post based on the content of the post I've written and KF was telling you that the discussion initiated in that post (the OP) was "a discussion of philosophical issues, not of design theory". You responded by claiming that it was actually "a discussion of some philosophical issues of design theory". I'm telling you that you are incorrect in this claim. I don't care all that much if you want to discuss ID (though I typically try to keep the discussion threads to my posts reasonably on-topic), but my OP is about philosophical, logical and theological issues discussed in a debate about God's existence and common misunderstandings about arguments for God's existence on the part of prominent atheists. It is not about Intelligent Design at all, other than perhaps a passing reference in the last paragraph mentioning Coyne's responses to the Fine-Tuning Argument, which was simply an aside for the sake of completeness. Now, I do think the OP is of General Interest to the readership here, because this site covers both science and philosophy. This issue falls primarily on the philosophy side but has some intersection with cosmology. It does not, however, have anything specifically to do with ID, and the philosophical issues discussed in the OP are not philosophical issues of design theory. They relate more to metaphysics than to physics, and have nothing to do with biochemistry or biology. And since the philosophical issues discussed relate to First-Cause arguments rather than the Fine-Tuning argument, they don't even relate to cosmological design inferences (i.e. inferences to design made on the basis of observable hallmarks of intelligent design found in cosmology), as they are primarily logical rather than evidential.HeKS
July 11, 2016
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SS, I am not invoking Plato as infallible authority (your projection smacks of strawman caricature with patent subtext, you fundy looking for an inerrant text). I am pointing out that he -- a root source of this whole discussion in the history of ideas -- identified a characteristic of being a self-moved actuating initiating cause connected to agency, which he termed soul. In that context, we would be first causes, even as contingent beings. Then, he pointed to the first cause of the world. I note on the classic view of the four causes/explanations, per Ari, here, Wiki for convenience:
Aristotle held that there were four kinds of answers to 'why' questions (in Physics II, 3, and Metaphysics V, 2):[2][4] In this article, the peculiar philosophical usage of the word 'cause' will be exercised, for tradition's sake, but the reader should not be misled by confusing this peculiar usage with current ordinary language. A change or movement's material explanation is the aspect of the change or movement which is determined by the material that composes the moving or changing things. For a table, that might be wood; for a statue, that might be bronze or marble. A change or movement's formal explanation is a change or movement caused by the arrangement, shape or appearance of the thing changing or moving. Aristotle says for example that the ratio 2:1, and number in general, is the explanation of the octave. A change or movement's efficient or moving explanation consists of things apart from the thing being changed or moved, which interact so as to be an agency within the change or movement. For example, the efficient explanation of a table is a carpenter, or a person working as one, and according to Aristotle the efficient explanation of a boy is a father. An event's final explanation is the end toward which it directs. That for the sake of which a thing is what it is. For a seed, it might be an adult plant. For a sailboat, it might be sailing. For a ball at the top of a ramp, it might be coming to rest at the bottom. For a person's action, it is the goal.
A different but laterally illuminating view. Now, back to Plato's core point:
Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly.
Now, Ari speaks of forms and of purposes or ends. Plato, of ensouled, self-moving agency that initiates chains of efficient, actuating causes [that may use up materials and we add energy]. Such is our direct experience as rationally, responsibly, significantly free and morally governed agents. But Plato is interested in that which is oldest, and points onward to the first cause of the cosmos as a good soul:
Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]
I think it is reasonable to acknowledge distinct but related senses. Where, if we are to reason about these things we need that freedom of being self-moved, not merely actuated by chains of mechanical links and/or chance stochastic events. We need to be self-moved on purpose and on reason and on conscience, with real freedom to choose. Or else argument such as in this thread collapses in self-referential absurdity. So, we are first causes in the first sense. In the second sense we see a cosmos of mechanisms and stochastic distributions etc. Such chains causally -- and, anticipating the angelic doctor -- even if those chains be endless in succession, they require sustaining cause to enable them to be. This points to the priority, ontological priority, of first cause independent of such chains and initiating them as causal root of the world. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2016
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mw; regarding #223;
... my point is, we cannot debate even the flaws in Darwinism in class. That is not true science, that is iron curtain indoctrination.
I don’t know about England or the EU, but here in the States there’s no barrier to discussing the “flaws” and limits of any science. But if the conversation goes as it frequently does on this site, to fabricating imaginary “flaws” for Evolution, then it does seem proper to not waste educational resources on false claims.
As for teaching ID in class, or any leanings to any type of higher intelligent source of information; many times it has been pointed out, that is not the intent of any form of creationism.
I don’t know about England or the EU, but here in the States there have been many efforts to do exactly that.
Sean you must prove that God did not create in such a ‘ridiculous’ manner.
No, the burden is on you to prove God did what you claim God did. sean s.sean samis
July 11, 2016
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HeKS; re #222;
SS: [This thread] is a discussion of some philosophical issues of design theory.
HeKS: Sean, I invite you to look up, waaayy up*, to the very top of the OP. Look at all the categories I tagged this post under. Do you notice any that are conspicuously (and rightly) missing?
Funny. What you tagged lists what you PLANNED to be discussed, but my comment was about the actual discussion taking place. “Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.” ** But let’s look at the tags:
Atheism, Big Bang, Cosmology, Fine tuning, General interest, Logic and First Principles of right reason, Philosophy, Science, Philosophy and (Natural) Theology
Hmm. “General interest”? That relates to – well – everything! sean s. **Firefly/Serenity fans will get that reference!sean samis
July 11, 2016
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KF; re #219;
... in general (and following Plato — cf cites above), a first cause is a self-moved actuating cause, a living soul.
Unless you are going to state here and now that Plato was, in all ways, infallible and inerrant, then your invocation of Plato’s name is valueless. Ditto for anyone else whose words you invoke. Your definition of a first cause is unfounded. Other than invoking Great Men, you cannot establish that the first cause must have been a “living soul” or had any attributes of personhood. It might have been, but it could just as well have been as non-living as a cloud.
The first cause of the observed cosmos must account for a material world AND a moral one. In that context, person soon becomes a requisite.
You and I have done this one at length. A first cause is only needed to account for our universe (“the material world”); the material world is a sufficient source for morality (the “moral world”). sean s.sean samis
July 11, 2016
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F/N: Last para of OP is also telling. HeKS speaks:
. . . Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. [ --> no inductive inference is 100% certain, this is selective hyperskepticism, and given local isolation of our cosmos' physics setting up conditions for life, multiverse does not blunt the inference] Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that. [--> inference to best explanation on reliable sign]
This brings out the force of the issue of inferring design on reliable sign. Design is a familiar observed phenomenon, and it is replete with empirically reliable indicia. For instance, functionally specific complex organisation of components and associated information that results in a locally isolated operating point. (Thus, fine tuning, to set a system to that point.) Nor is it a serious objection to say that the designs we observe are done by humans. First, false, beaver dams show design adapted to situation (as has long since been argued here at UD). Second, we are contingent and there is no good reason to infer that we exhaust potential designers. Nor is there a good non-question begging reason to a priori insist that we cannot infer design on signs in circumstances that may point to an incorporeal being or mind. (In fact, there is no good reason to hold that our own minds are only manifestations of processing in the brain's neural networks, not least, such struggles to the point of futility in explaining responsible, rational freedom. Without which, freedom to undertake responsible reasoned argument is utterly undermined.) There are in fact abundant, even notorious, signs of cosmological design, that get stronger and stronger as the decades roll by. Already, at the turn of the 1980's, they were so strong that leading astrophysicist and lifelong agnostic, Sir Fred Hoyle, observed regarding the connecting block Carbon Atom:
>>From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has "monkeyed" with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.]>> also, in the same talk: >>The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn't so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn't give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrange-ments that would be useless in serving the pur-poses of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it's easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. [ --> 20^200 = 1.6 * 10^260] This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem - the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn't convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes - by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix. >> and again: >>I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the [--> nuclear synthesis] consequences they produce within stars. ["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]>>
That, and much more, is what needs to be addressed. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2016
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SB, understood. I highlight from Grudem:
"[i]n systematic theology, summaries of biblical teachings must be worded precisely to guard against misunderstandings and to exclude false teachings." [Systematic Theology, Zondervan (1994), p. 24.]
Sobering words. Aptly illustrated by the history of the Nicene and [more technical] Athanasian creeds. As in Athanasius contra mundum, carrying the day by force of case in the end. KF PS: These words from Charles Hodge are well worth pondering:
CH 1: In every science there are two factors: facts and ideas; or, facts and the mind. Science is more than knowledge. Knowledge is the persuasion of what is true on adequate evidence. But the facts of astronomy, chemistry, or history do not constitute the science of those departments of knowledge. Nor does the mere orderly arrangement of facts amount to science . . . . The Bible is no more a system of theology, than nature is a system of chemistry or of mechanics. We find in nature the facts which the chemist or the mechanical philosopher has to examine, and from them to ascertain the laws by which they are determined. So the Bible contains the truths which the theologian has to collect, authenticate, arrange, and exhibit in their internal relation to each other. This constitutes the difference between biblical and systematic theology. The office of the former is to ascertain and state 2the facts of Scripture. The office of the latter is to take those facts, determine their relation to each other and to other cognate truths, as well as to vindicate them and show their harmony and consistency. This is not an easy task, or one of slight importance . . . . CH 2: Every science has its own method, determined by its peculiar nature. This is a matter of so much importance that it has been erected into a distinct department. Modern literature abounds in works on Methodology, i.e., on the science of method. They are designed to determine the principles which should control scientific investigations. If a man adopts a false method, he is like one who takes a wrong road which will never lead him to his destination. The two great comprehensive methods are the à priori and the à posteriori. The one argues from cause to effect, the other from effect to cause . . . Every one knows how much it cost to establish the method of induction on a firm basis, and to secure a general recognition of its authority. According to this method, we begin with collecting well-established facts, and from them infer the general laws which determine their occurrence . . .
kairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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KF
SB, pardon me, I forgot for a moment just how loaded terms can be here. I did not intend manifestation to subtract from co-eternal person of one undivided substance and order of being. I do intend to say that when one Person or face is manifest to us, the full being of Godhead is also present though perhaps latent.
KF, I understand. I didn't interpret your comment to mean diminished personhood at all. My aim was to clarify the meaning of terms for Eric @187, who had raised some important issues about what it means to say, "God the Son." My point was to argue that the phrase should be taken literally. It was more like a CC: to you, not a corrective by any means. I probably should have addressed it to Eric (Attn: KF) or something along those lines.StephenB
July 10, 2016
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MW, it seems I need to clip for record, from the longstanding UD Weak Argument Correctives under the resources tab (as was previously pointed to), to make it utterly clear why it is fair to say that the willful conflation of design theory with Creationism is ill founded and too often maliciously tendentious. In the context of easily accessible correctives and a notoriously ruthless policy agenda pivoting on quite deliberate misrepresentations by the NCSE, ACLU and other entities that full well know or should know better but wish to play at lawfare, the below is sobering:
5] Intelligent Design is “Creationism in a Cheap Tuxedo” In fact, the two theories are radically different. Creationism moves forward: that is, it assumes, asserts or accepts something about God and what he has to say about origins; then interprets nature in that context. Intelligent design moves backward: that is, it observes something interesting in nature (complex, specified information) and then theorises and tests possible ways how that might have come to be. Creationism is faith-based; Intelligent Design is empirically-based. Each approach has a pedigree that goes back over two thousand years. We notice the “forward” approach in Tertullian, Augustine, Bonaventure, and Anselm. Augustine described it best with the phrase, “faith seeking understanding.” With these thinkers, the investigation was faith-based. By contrast, we discover the “backward” orientation in Aristotle, Aquinas, and Paley. Aristotle’s argument, which begins with “motion in nature” and reasons BACK to a “prime mover” — i.e. from effect to its “best” causal explanation — is obviously empirically based. To say then, that Tertullian, Augustine, Anselm (Creationism) is similar to Aristotle, Aquinas, Paley (ID) is equivalent to saying forward equals backward. What could be more illogical? 6] Since Intelligent Design Proponents Believe in a “Designer” or “Creator” They Can Be Called “Creationists” First, a basic fact: while many intelligent design proponents believe in a Creator (which is their world-view right), not all do. Some hold that some immanent principle or law in nature could design the universe. That is: to believe in intelligent design is not necessarily to believe in a transcendent creative being. However, what is rhetorically significant is the further fact that the term “creationist” is very often used today in a derogatory way. Traditionally, the word was used to describe the world view that God created the universe, a belief shared by many ID scientists, and even some ID critics. But now, that same term is too often used dishonestly in an attempt to associate intelligent design, an empirically-based methodology, with Creationism, a faith-based methodology. Some Darwinist advocates and some theistic evolutionists seem to feel that if they can tag ID with the “Creationist” label often enough and thus keep the focus away from science–if they can create the false impression that ID allows religious bias to “leak” into its methodology–if they can characterize it as a religious presupposition rather than a design inference –then the press and the public will eventually come to believe that ID is not really science at all. In short, anti-ID ideologues use the word “creationist” to distract from a scientific debate that they cannot win on the merits. The only real question is whether someone who uses this dubious strategy is doing so out of ignorance (having been taken in by it, too) or out of malice. 7] Because William Dembski once commented that the design patterns in nature are consistent with the “logos theology” of the Bible, he unwittingly exposed his intentions to do religion in the name of science In general, personal beliefs and personal views about the general nature of reality (be they religious, atheistic, or of any kind) should not be considered directly relevant to what scientists say and do in their specific scientific work: that’s a very simple rule of intellectual respect and democracy, and it simply means that nobody can impose a specific model of reality on others, and on science itself. Moreover, Dembski is qualified as a theologian and a philospher-scientist-mathematician (one of a long and distinguished tradition), so he has a perfect right to comment seriously on intelligent design from both perspectives. Further to this, the quote in question comes from a theologically oriented book in which Dembski explores the “theological implications” of the science of intelligent design. Such theological reframing of a scientific theory and/or its implications is not the same thing as the theory itself, even though each may be logically consistent with the other. Dembski’s point, of course, was that truth is unified, so we shouldn’t be surprised that theological truths confirm scientific truths and vice versa. Also, Dembski’s reference to John 1:1 ff. underscores how a worldview level or theological claim may have empirical implications, and is thus subject to empirical test. For, in that text, the aged Apostle John put into the heart of foundational era Christian thought, the idea that Creation is premised on Rational Mind and Intelligent Communication/Information. Now, after nineteen centuries, we see that — per empirical observation — we evidently do live in a cosmos that exhibits fine-tumed, function-specifying complex information as a premise of facilitating life, and cell-based life is also based on such functional, complex, and specific information, e.g in DNA. Thus, theological truth claims here line up with subsequent empirical investigation:a risky empirical prediction has been confirmed by the evidence. (Of course, had it been otherwise – and per track record — many of the same critics would have pounced on the “scientific facts” as a disconfirmation. So, why then is it suddently illegitimate for Christians to point out from scientific evidence, that on this point their faith has passed a significant empirical test?) 8] Intelligent Design is an attempt by the Religious Right to establish a Theocracy Darwinist advocates often like to single out the “Discovery Institute” as their prime target for this charge. It is, of course, beyond ridiculous. In fact, all members from that organization and all prominent ID spokespersons embrace the American Founders’ principle of representative democracy. All agree that civil liberties are grounded in religious “principles” (on which the framers built the republic) not religious “laws” (which they risked their lives to avoid), and support the proposition that Church and State should never become one. However, anti-ID zealots too often tend to misrepresent the political issues at stake and distort the original intent, spirit, and letter of the founding documents. Historically, the relationship between Church and State was characterized not as a “union” (religious theocracy) or a radical separation (secular tyranny) but rather as an “intersection,” a mutual co-existence that would allow each to express itself fully without any undue interference from the other. There was no separation of God from government. On the contrary, everyone understood that freedom follows from the principle that the Creator God grants “unalienable rights,” a point that is explicit in the US Declaration of Independence. Many Darwinists are hostile to such an explicitly Creation-anchored and declaratively “self-evident” foundation for liberty and too often then misunderstand or pervert its historical context – the concept and practice of covenantal nationhood and just Government under God. Then, it becomes very tempting to take the cheap way out: (i) evade the responsibility of making their scientific case, (ii) change the subject to politics, (iii) pretend to a superior knowledge of the history, and (iv) accuse the other side of attempting to establish a “theocracy.” In fact, design thinking is incompatible with theocratic principles, a point that is often lost on those who don’t understand it. Jefferson and his colleagues — all design thinkers — argued that nature is designed, and part of that design reflects the “natural moral law,” which is observed in nature and written in the human heart as “conscience.” Without it, there is no reasonable standard for informing the civil law or any moral code for defining responsible citizenship. For, the founders held that (by virtue of the Mind and Conscience placed within by our common Creator) humans can in principle know the core ideas that distinguish right from wrong without blindly appealing to any religious text or hierarchy. They therefore claimed that the relationship between basic rights and responsibilities regarding life, liberty and fulfillment of one’s potential as a person is intuitively clear. Indeed, to deny these principles leads into a morass of self-contradictions and blatant self-serving hypocrisies; which is just what “self-evident” means. So, as a member of a community, each citizen is should follow his conscience and traditions in light of such self-evident moral truth; s/he therefore deserves to be free from any tyranny or theocracy that which would frustrate such pursuit of virtue. By that standard, religious believers are permitted and even obliged to publicly promote their values for the common good; so long as they understand that believers (and unbelievers) who hold other traditions or worldviews may do the same. Many Darwinists, however, confuse civil laws that are derived from religious principles and from the natural moral law (representative democracy) with religious laws (autocratic theocracy). So, they are reduced to arguing that freedom is based on a murky notion of “reason,” which, for them, means anti-religion. Then, disavowing the existence of moral laws, natural rights, or objectively grounded consciences, they can provide no successful rational justification for the basic right to free expression; which easily explains why they tend to support it for only those who agree with their point of view. Sadly, they then too often push for — and often succeed in — establishing civil laws that de-legitimize those very same religious principles that are the historic foundation for their right to advocate their cause. Thus, they end up in precisely the morass of agenda-serving self-referential inconsistencies and abuses that the founders of the American Republic foresaw. So, it is no surprise that, as a matter of painfully repeated fact, such zealots will then typically “expel” and/or slander any scientist or educator who challenges their failed paradigm or questions its materialistic foundations. That is why for instance, Lewontin publicly stated: Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [Bold emphasis added] The point of all this should be clear. ID does not seek to establish a theocracy; it simply wants to disestablish a growing Darwinist tyranny.
Some very serious issues lurk here. I note, by way of illustration, from the US National Science Teachers' Association [NSTA] in a notorious July 2000 Board declaration:
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . [[S]cience, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific [--> loaded word that cannot be properly backed up due to failure of demarcation arguments] methods, explanations, generalizations and products [--> declaration of intent to ideologically censor education materials] . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge.
This is of course little more than atheistical indoctrination under colour of science and science education that warps the very definition of science and its methods in deliberate, willful distortion of the relevant and readily accessible actual history of science. (Naturalism is in effect a priori evolutionary materialistic scientism. As this annotated cite from Lewontin shows, it is in fact an ideology imposed on science.) KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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SB, pardon me, I forgot for a moment just how loaded terms can be here. I did not intend manifestation to subtract from co-eternal person of one undivided substance and order of being. I do intend to say that when one Person or face is manifest to us, the full being of Godhead is also present though perhaps latent. Hence Jesus did signs seeing his Father's leading, taught what his Father gave, and upon Him the Spirit was poured out in unlimited measure. When we are indwelt by the Spirit who cries Abba, Father, the full power and presence of the Triune Godhead is in us. Never mind, in a different but usually more latent sense, in Him we live and move and have our being and in him all things consist and he upholds everywhere every-when, everything by his powerful word (as in where the LAW in laws of nature comes from). And, more. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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Sean, #211: "Since creationism/ID and all its variants are thoroughly religious, they cannot be taught as science in American public schools." ______________________________ Well, in England, we have a law which basically says the same, and as does the EU. Creationism is a danger to science. Yes, the pseudoscience that is Darwinism. With respect, my point is, we cannot debate even the flaws in Darwinism in class. That is not true science, that is iron curtain indoctrination. As for teaching ID in class, or any leanings to any type of higher intelligent source of information; many times it has been pointed out, that is not the intent of any form of creationism. As for "thoroughly religious," well in the priest, professor F Ayala, said, evolution is the Saviour of whence came evil. Of course, Darwin is the Saviour of Sinai! It's a natural consequence, of God using natural selection to create opposite to divine law, which He wrote in stone that He created in six days. Of course, at this point, all evolutionists will fall out of their tree in hysterics, a natural consequence of degrading the self. Still, Sean you must prove that God did not create in such a 'ridiculous' manner. You cannot. Darwinism is circumstantial evidence against a powerful higher intellect, recorded as seen and witnessed. You or I did not ask to be born, you will probably not ask to die, and you certainly do not know what will happen to you at death. Yet, your world view is lived by a faith: you originated from a non-human, as decreed by Darwin who never proved his theory as law. No doubt Sean, you would agree that the flaws in evolution!utionism be examined scientifically. See http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/07/evolutions_enfo102976.html However, I am of the opinion, that the iron curtain mentality of Darwinism will fall like the Berlin Wall, suddenly and without force. In the meantime, how many more souls will it degrade. Worse, who cares? Human intelligence alone reigns by faith, unseen imperceptible steps up Mount Improbable. Faith in unseen steps. Faith in a never factually observed transitional theoretical process. Faith, that dust, atmospherics and a warm pond, will generate a lifeform. Faith that the magic wand of Darwin's natural selector will spread over the globe, every life form seemingly almost perfect in design, devoid of intelligent selecting design. More faith is needed for Darwinism than Mount Sinai, at least that supernatural experience was recorded and witnessed. Thanks Sean, for your well intended comments.mw
July 10, 2016
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sean samis @207
KF: This thread, FYI, is a discussion of philosophical issues, not of design theory. The issues are important and of interest in their own right as can be seen.
SS: It is a discussion of some philosophical issues of design theory.
Sean, I invite you to look up, waaayy up*, to the very top of the OP. Look at all the categories I tagged this post under. Do you notice any that are conspicuously (and rightly) missing? *Do any other Canadians get that reference?HeKS
July 10, 2016
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Ill posed. Being and Person are in effect orthogonal.kairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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KF,
DS, your antitheses simply set up the contrast between God and not-God, and within the context of trinitarian theism, God the Father vs what is not God the Father, etc. As there is an understanding of God that is triune, it is in that light possible to be of The One Divine Being but not manifest as person of Father, instead as Son or Spirit; hence, some of the the point of Scutum Fidei. That is God/not God is a contrast of being and nature, Father/ not Father, of person (in an older sense of that term which does not imply isolation of individual).
Is there then an answer to the question "In the partition {Father | ~Father}, does God lie in Father or ~Father?" Or is it ill-posed?daveS
July 10, 2016
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