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Prominent Atheists Fundamentally Misunderstand First-Cause Arguments

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Recently, a debate was held in London between theist philosopher Rabbi Daniel Rowe and atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling. The subject under dispute, unsurprisingly, was God’s existence. It’s a very interesting debate to watch. I’d never heard of Rowe before, but I was familiar with Grayling, who is sometimes referred to as the Fifth Horseman of New Atheism.

Generally speaking, the “New Atheists” haven’t shown any natural genius for philosophy. Grayling, though being a professional philosopher, does not prove to be the exception here. Instead, he shows that even when they have the benefit of philosophical training, it does them very little good when they engage in debates over God’s existence. I think it would be pretty uncontroversial to say that Rowe won the debate rather decisively. Grayling often seemed so far out of his depth that it was even making me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how Grayling must have been feeling.

In an article at ENV, David Klinghoffer has pointed out that Jerry Coyne agrees. Writing at his blog, Why Evolution is True, Coyne says:

I have to admit to finding the prospect of an orthodox rabbi holding his own in a debate with Dr. Grayling on God’s existence rather disheartening, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what went down the other night in London.

If there’s anything inaccurate in this description of the debate it’s Coyne’s characterization of Rowe as merely “holding his own”.  Anyone who watches the debate will see that Rowe did much more than that. What I want to comment on, however, is the argument that Coyne thinks he would have used were he in Grayling’s shoes, because it demonstrates that prominent figures within the New Atheism movement (or whatever you want to call it), for all their bluster about the failure of arguments for God’s existence, often don’t even understand the arguments.

Coyne begins:

The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.

Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:

The rabbi made three arguments:

  • You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.”

I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.

Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.

Furthermore, Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.

All that having been said, Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:

Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind?

The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God).

What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past, and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all.

Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct.

The argument can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either:

A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all, or

B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional.

We can then consider the implications of these two options.

If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. Option A, therefore, must be false.

This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power.

Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent, but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God.

When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.

Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.

HeKS

Comments
Origines @180:
The uniqueness of God … should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons.
What does that even mean? Existing "as a plurality of persons?" It doesn't appeal to me either. Especially when the proposal is grounded upon the assumption of the "uniqueness of God" . . . meaning, dear reader, that you should be prepared to imagine the strange, the unusual, the unexpected -- after all, God is unique. Let me be clear: I don't deny that God is unique. I would prefer to hold that as a conclusion from the evidence, however, rather than as a premise. In any event, if it is true that God exists as a "plurality of persons," then we are incorrect to say that any one of those persons = God. Rather, we would have to say that the Son, for example, is one of the possible manifestations of God. Perhaps this is what the Trinitarian doctrine holds -- I'm not claiming to understand it just yet . . .Eric Anderson
July 9, 2016
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EA, I think the previous linked materials will help; remember, you deal with the likes of an Aquinas, an Augustine, a Calvin, a Wesley here -- men of significant weight in theology and philosophy. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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BA77 @171: Thanks for your comments. There is very little in your comment #171 with which I would disagree: (a) I agree that Jesus is the Son of God, (b) I have no issue with the idea that God could take upon himself the role of a "person"; and (c) I am with you as to the incarnation of Christ. What I am focusing on is the semantic gymnastics that seem to be employed to explain the Trinitarian doctrine. Specifically, as to (a) and (b) above: (a) If Jesus is, as he said, the Son of God, then one might be forgiven for thinking that He was actually a Son in some substantive sense. If the Trinitarian doctrine is correct then either: (i) He was the son of himself, which seems both strange and nonsensical; (ii) we must regard the use of the word "Son" as only symbolic, and that He wasn't really a son; or (iii) we have to resort to strange semantic gymnastics to claim that the word "Son" doesn't mean what it normally does in the English language. I'm fine with (ii); (i) is pretty hard to swallow; (iii) seems like special pleading and isn't intellectually satisfactory. Of course there is a fourth possibility: namely, that Jesus really was the Son of God, in some meaningful usage of that word. (b) If Jesus incarnate appeared as a "person", we might also be forgiven for thinking that He actually was a person -- with his own thoughts, mind, experiences, decisions, free will, and so on. Indeed, the record strongly suggests that we was a person in every sense of that word, possessing all of those attributes of individual identity. Clearly he was during his mortal ministry. Did he somehow lose his "personhood" following the resurrection? Apparently not, if the New Testament account is to be believed -- he met with, talked with, appeared to, spent time with, encouraged and taught his apostles and disciples. They recognized him, dealt with him, and interacted with him as the same person he had been. Did he lose his "personhood" after he ascended? There isn't any good reason to think that he did. Indeed, what little New Testament information we have suggests that he maintained some individual identity at least as far as the record goes.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2016
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DK, ironically, the scientific evidence in hand points to a cosmos, including space-time itself originating from a singularity, a polar point, some 13.8 BYA. So much so, there has been only mildly humourous talk of the first church of God Big Bang, with Sir Fred Hoyle as reluctant evangelist. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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Daniel King: Is that clear, Seversky? Hi Troll!Mung
July 9, 2016
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sean samis @158: bornagain77, KF, Mung, mw, Origenes, Silver Asiatic, StephenB and any others I might have missed; Liar.Mung
July 9, 2016
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kairosfocus:
God, as understood in ethical theism, did not make the physical cosmos out of pre-existing materials.
Seversky:
Okay, so what did the God of ethical theism create the physical universe from?
kairosfocus:
Seversky, the classical theistic view has long since been stated, the world was created from no material or quasi-material predecessor. Where, nothing, properly, denotes non-being. And, even through multiverse speculations, it remains so that no material atom based entity or extensional entity like that can but be contingent. Which is not self explanatory. Where also, utter nothing has no casual powers so were there ever that, such would forever obtain. Thus, we must look to necessary being as root of reality. KF
Is that clear, Seversky?Daniel King
July 9, 2016
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Origines, the triune conception of God by ages antedates you and me; the issue I have taken up is that it has been misrepresented above as a contradiction. I have put forth brief remarks and onward links that help set that straight; including the significance of the scutum fidei, rightly understood. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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DS, again, you here ignore the import of my general point that we all must and do use distinct identity to think, reason and communicate; this its instantly present triple corollaries . . . and yes, you were suspicious of this term. This patently includes the intuitionists, cf St Paul's point about music as illustrative. Math-logical symbols are further cases in point. I have noted this over and over. To reason, communicate and think the intuitionists just like the rest of us rely on distinct identity. As I have repeatedly said, to then go on and try to construct a scheme of thought in which that which they too must rely on is dismissed as disproved . . . note the use of conjectures of unknown status to undermine the logical statement . . . is to be in self referential incoherence. To try to saw off the branch on which we all must sit. I am frankly astonished at how you have argued across this thread. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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Eric @169, There is a third option: God exists as three persons. So God is one spirit "who" unites three persons. From KF's first link:
The uniqueness of God ... should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons
To be frank, the idea does not appeal to me.Origenes
July 9, 2016
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KF, I'm not an Intuitionist, and I'm not defending Intuitionism, so I don't feel compelled to respond to your general criticisms of it. Have at it. As far as I know, your criticisms are well-formed, but they are not what I'm discussing. What I did ask for was evidence that Intuitionists use forms of the LEM that they claim to reject, which would indicate that they are "sawing off the limb they rest on" so to speak.daveS
July 9, 2016
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DS, with all due respect, you have consistently spoken as though there is a wedge between others and me. Notice, above, I pointed out the consequences of the nature of intuitionism, per SEP's summary, in answer to your wanting me to point out specific ways such runs into trouble. Observe the posts above to see if you ever spoke as though I have fairly summarised. And ponder whether you have ever actually addressed the substantial point I have made, cogently. Then you will see why I have cause to draw the inference of a rhetorical suggestion on your part. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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F/N: Again, going further with the OP, as this issue is of great importance to understanding the question of origin of the cosmos, whatever one's worldview:
Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:
Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. [--> fails to understand contingent vs necessary being] Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. '--> completely misrepresents the concept of necessary being] But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind? [--> fails to understand eternity vs time]
The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God). What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time [--> as opposed to a finite but increasing duration]. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past [--> there was a long debate on this months ago], and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all. Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct. [--> necessary being vs utter non-being and the actual existence of a world]
I have briefly annotated. There are major conceptual issues here that it would be highly advisable for us to ponder rather than running off on various tangents. At least, to understand the serious worldview and world root options. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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KF,
Your attempt to suggest a wedge between what SEP summarises and what I identify as a pivotal problem, fails. KF
What?? I'm not suggesting that you are saying anything contrary to what is on the SEP. I'll take this as a sign that this discussion was just not meant to be. Catch you on the flippety flip.daveS
July 9, 2016
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DS, the information as cited is the basis for my observations on the error of shifting truth from an ontological concept to an epistemological one. This was directly seen to be the context of denial of LEM by purported counter-example; one that pivots on our neither knowing the truth nor the falsity of a conjecture. But our state of knowledge or inability so far to prove is utterly distinct from whether or no the conjecture is accurate to the state of reality. But once the proper sense of what truth is is put into play, the argument manifestly fails. Your attempt to suggest a wedge between what SEP summarises and what I identify as a pivotal problem, fails. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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EA, there are errors of meaning involved in the substitutions you make, these are not mathematical equations, e.g. The Son as to nature is God but as to person is not the Father (who is also God per nature) is perfectly coherent; what the law of contradiction is about is that we are not to assert or imply [P AND ~P] in the same sense and circumstances. I suggest, further, that the focus of this blog and thread is not conducive to a major theological debate, esp on top of what is already going on in logic [on 1st principles of reason], mathematics [intuitionism etc] and ontology as well as the causal principle and science of origin of cosmos. KF PS: If you wish to undertake some theological explorations, these may be helpful as start-points, in reality you need to work though a good systematic theology or two: https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm http://www.theopedia.com/trinitykairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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KF,
DS, again, they are not my views, I am citing SEP’s summary. I point out — as can be readily seen — that this is a substitution of epistemology for ontology and an unforced dismissal of the classic understanding that truth is the accurate summary or reality in one or more aspects; whether or no we can warrant the statement to be so accurate. The problems as outlined directly trace to this error at the beginning by the intuitionists. KF
I'm very puzzled by your responses. Once again, I'm not claiming that the quotes from SEP are your own views or that the SEP is inaccurate. Please see the last four sentences of my post #154.daveS
July 9, 2016
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Sean @166, if you really hold that Aquinas' first-cause arguments are part of ID, then I'm not sure what to say ...
Sean Samis: I am not being sarcastic when I give you my thanks. Y’all are making it easy for us.
Any time, Sean.Origenes
July 9, 2016
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Of interest to the Trinity, I would like to note that Jesus was crucified precisely for claiming that he was the Son of God.
John 19:7 The Jewish leaders insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God." During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said, "I am." (Mark 14:60-62) "Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65) "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70) http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/claims.html
Moreover, to reiterate, I would like to point out that Godel, one of the foremost logicians who ever existed on the face of earth, apparently had no trouble whatsoever believing the God could 'play the role of a person'.
The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” – Kurt Gödel – (Gödel is considered one of the greatest mathematicians/logicians who ever existed) https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/prominent-atheists-fundamentally-misunderstand-first-cause-arguments/#comment-612597
Moreover, I would like to point out that there was/is something special within Christianity, and the belief in the incarnation of Christ, something special that is missing in the monotheistic faiths of the Jews and Arabs, that was apparently necessary for the birth of modern science:
The War against the War Between Science and Faith Revisited - July 2010 Excerpt: …as Whitehead pointed out, it is no coincidence that science sprang, not from Ionian metaphysics, not from the Brahmin-Buddhist-Taoist East, not from the Egyptian-Mayan astrological South, but from the heart of the Christian West, that although Galileo fell out with the Church, he would hardly have taken so much trouble studying Jupiter and dropping objects from towers if the reality and value and order of things had not first been conferred by belief in the Incarnation. (Walker Percy, Lost in the Cosmos),,, Jaki notes that before Christ the Jews never formed a very large community (priv. comm.). In later times, the Jews lacked the Christian notion that Jesus was the monogenes or unigenitus, the only-begotten of God. Pantheists like the Greeks tended to identify the monogenes or unigenitus with the universe itself, or with the heavens. Jaki writes: Herein lies the tremendous difference between Christian monotheism on the one hand and Jewish and Muslim monotheism on the other. This explains also the fact that it is almost natural for a Jewish or Muslim intellectual to become a pantheist. About the former Spinoza and Einstein are well-known examples. As to the Muslims, it should be enough to think of the Averroists. With this in mind one can also hope to understand why the Muslims, who for five hundred years had studied Aristotle’s works and produced many commentaries on them failed to make a breakthrough. The latter came in medieval Christian context and just about within a hundred years from the availability of Aristotle’s works in Latin,, http://www.scifiwright.com/2010/08/the-war-against-the-war-between-science-and-faith-revisited/
and also see that Christ, besides being necessary for the founding of science, also offers a correct solution for the much sought after 'theory of everything'
(Centrality Concerns) The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from Death as the “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1143437869002478/?type=2&theater Special and General Relativity compared to Heavenly and Hellish Near Death Experiences – video (reworked May 2016 – following two videos referenced in it) https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/1193118270701104/ (Entropic Concerns) The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead is the correct solution for the “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/1121720701174195/?pnref=story Albert Einstein vs. “The Now” of Philosophers and of Quantum Mechanics – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1129789497033982/?type=2&theater
bornagain77
July 9, 2016
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sean samis @158: Before you keep spouting your claims any further (as you clogged up the other recent thread with multiple comments with the same claim) please define these two terms so that we know what you are talking about: Creationism Intelligent Design ----- Hint: If you don't understand the difference then you have no idea what you are talking about and need to spend some time studying the issues.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2016
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BA77 @155: Thanks. I think KF has made a valiant attempt. It is not my intention to denigrate anyone's religious belief, but, frankly, Clavdivs' objection still seems to merit a bit more exploration. Take the Shield of the Trinity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity Now replace Pater, Filius, Spiritus Sanctus, and Deus with A, B, C, and D respectively. Now, if we understand the latin "est" in the sense of "is equal to," and if we discard the article "a" from our English vocabulary for a minute, then we end up with the following claim: A = D B = D C = D That is fine. But we also have: A =/ B B =/ C C =/ A This is clearly nonsense and violates the basic laws KF has laid out in prior comments. There are a couple of ways, logically, out of the conundrum. 1. Rather than viewing Deus as a single, identifiable, indivisible entity, we could view Deus with the English "a" in front of it. This allows for multiple entities that conform to the title Deus. This would be analogous to putting the following terms in the Shield: Apple, Pear, Grape, Fruit. This solves the conundrum completely. 2. We could, by some definitional and dogmatic fiat, assert that "personhood in the Trinity does not match the common Western understanding of "person" as used in the English language . . ." In other words, going back to the Shield, we would be saying that each of the persons making up the Trinity is not really the person Deus, in the fullest sense of the word. Only when they are considered together as an integral, unified being, do they become Deus. In that sense "est" on the Shield, really means something more like "forms part of," rather than "equals". Either of these two approaches can make rational sense, although in the latter case we still have the inscrutable "mystery" of how three separate "persons" can constitute one essence. And simply asserting that we have to understand words in a sense different from the way they are normally used is not satisfactory. It only serves to aggravate the mystery, rather than explain it. ----- Incidentally, I don't think the analogies of a three-leaf clover are helpful. A three-leaf clover is what it is. If it only had two leaves, rather than three, then it would be a two-leaf clover, and the resulting construct would be different. Yes, parts always contribute to a whole, but it doesn't make any sense to say that each portion of the leaf somehow counts as the full leaf. The same goes for any other multi-part physical object. ----- I particularly noted the irony in this quote @82:
Of course, if the diagram is interpreted according to ordinary logic, then it contains a number of contradictions (since the set of twelve propositions listed above is mutually contradictory). . . . So the medieval Shield of the Trinity diagram could be considered to contain some implicit kernel of the idea of alternative logical systems.
I suppose, theoretically, there might be some undefined "alternative logical system" out there that makes sense of the Shield. But that is hardly a satisfactory intellectual answer, and is hardly a concept that promotes any confidence. After all, one could make the same claim about any other irrational or mutually contradictory proposition: it has to be understood under an "alternative logical system." Unfortunately, this serves not so much an explanation as a special pleading. And even if there is some alternative logical system out there, we can scarcely expect others to take it seriously or to accept it, particularly when it remains undefined. I think you can see the problem with appealing to some "alternative logical system." ----- In any event, by asking some pointed questions I hope I haven't been too offensive to anyone's religious views, and I appreciate the references. It helps me better understand the attempts that have been made to make sense of the "paradox" or "mystery" of the Trinity.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2016
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Sean perhaps you missed this but: As to Sean’s claim that Darwinian evolution is a science and ID is a religion, let us be VERY clear that ALL of science, especially including Darwinian evolution itself, is dependent on basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and our ability to comprehend that rational intelligibility. ,,, Where Darwinian evolution goes off the rails, theologically speaking, as far as science itself is concerned, is that it uses bad liberal theology to try to establish the legitimacy of its atheistic claims, all the while forgetting that it itself is dependent on basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and of our mind to comprehend it. (July 2016) https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/americans-support-dissent-re-evolution/#comment-612345 In fact, without God, everything within the atheistic-naturalistic worldview, even the atheist himself, becomes illusory. Darwinian evolution, and atheism/naturalism in general, are built entirely upon a framework of illusions and fantasy https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q94y-QgZZGF0Q7HdcE-qdFcVGErhWxsVKP7GOmpKD6o/edit It would be hard to imagine a more anti-scientific worldview than atheistic naturalism!bornagain77
July 9, 2016
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SS, again, you persist in propagating a false conflation, here dodging easily accessible correction. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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Origenes; It seems you don’t care much about such things, but there are creationists who still dream of getting their subject put into public school science curricula. Your religious comments (as well as others) relative to the topic enable the science community to invoke the First Amendment to keep creationism out. I am not being sarcastic when I give you my thanks. Y’all are making it easy for us. sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2016
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DS, again, they are not my views, I am citing SEP's summary. I point out -- as can be readily seen -- that this is a substitution of epistemology for ontology and an unforced dismissal of the classic understanding that truth is the accurate summary or reality in one or more aspects; whether or no we can warrant the statement to be so accurate. The problems as outlined directly trace to this error at the beginning by the intuitionists. KF PS: A typical clip:
https://www.classes.cs.uchicago.edu/archive/2003/spring/15300-1/intuitionism.pdf For a classical mathematician, mathematics consists of the discovery of pre-existing mathematical truth. This understanding of mathematics is cap-tured in Paul Erd ?os’s notion of “God’s Book of Mathematics,” which con-tains the best mathematical definitions, theorems, and proofs, and from which fortunate mathematicians are occasionally permitted read a page. Intuitionism takes the position that mathematical objects are mental constructions. Intuitionistic epistemology centers on proof, rather than truth . Thus, intuitionists analyze propositional combinations of mathematical statements in terms of what it takes to prove them . . .
kairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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Seversky, the classical theistic view has long since been stated, the world was created from no material or quasi-material predecessor. Where, nothing, properly, denotes non-being. And, even through multiverse speculations, it remains so that no material atom based entity or extensional entity like that can but be contingent. Which is not self explanatory. Where also, utter nothing has no casual powers so were there ever that, such would forever obtain. Thus, we must look to necessary being as root of reality. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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Sean Samis: Whenever I get someone saying that creationism/ID is not actually religious, I refer them to your comments and those like yours.
OMG ID has been exposed as creationism! Well, Sean, you have nailed it. Congratulations [sarcasm mode off]Origenes
July 9, 2016
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KF,
DS, They are not my views, they are the views of intuitionism as summarised by SEP, and as supported by other things I observed. KF
? Did you misread the second sentence of my post? I'm not doubting anything posted on the SEP.daveS
July 9, 2016
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SS, you again insist on misrepresentation, repeating a long since exposed ID = creationism lie . . . and lie it is, not mere misunderstanding, when it has been sustained year after year in the teeth of cogent correction. I suggest you need to scroll up and look at the weak argument correctives under the resources tab. This thread, FYI, is a discussion of philosophical issues, not of design theory. The issues are important and of interest in their own right as can be seen. What is clear, is that the loading of evolutionary materialistic scientism in too much of modern scientific work, declarations and education, is not being sufficiently addressed. And the underlying ontological issues being specifically addressed in the OP are seriously misunderstood by leading advocates of scientific atheism. Who love to dress up in the lab coat while preaching atheism and demanding a privileged establishment, under cover of such being science; as say Lewontin inadvertently exposed.KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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EA, note the references cited are speaking of one Divine nature and being, manifest in three persons or faces if you will. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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