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Prominent Atheists Fundamentally Misunderstand First-Cause Arguments

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Recently, a debate was held in London between theist philosopher Rabbi Daniel Rowe and atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling. The subject under dispute, unsurprisingly, was God’s existence. It’s a very interesting debate to watch. I’d never heard of Rowe before, but I was familiar with Grayling, who is sometimes referred to as the Fifth Horseman of New Atheism.

Generally speaking, the “New Atheists” haven’t shown any natural genius for philosophy. Grayling, though being a professional philosopher, does not prove to be the exception here. Instead, he shows that even when they have the benefit of philosophical training, it does them very little good when they engage in debates over God’s existence. I think it would be pretty uncontroversial to say that Rowe won the debate rather decisively. Grayling often seemed so far out of his depth that it was even making me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how Grayling must have been feeling.

In an article at ENV, David Klinghoffer has pointed out that Jerry Coyne agrees. Writing at his blog, Why Evolution is True, Coyne says:

I have to admit to finding the prospect of an orthodox rabbi holding his own in a debate with Dr. Grayling on God’s existence rather disheartening, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what went down the other night in London.

If there’s anything inaccurate in this description of the debate it’s Coyne’s characterization of Rowe as merely “holding his own”.  Anyone who watches the debate will see that Rowe did much more than that. What I want to comment on, however, is the argument that Coyne thinks he would have used were he in Grayling’s shoes, because it demonstrates that prominent figures within the New Atheism movement (or whatever you want to call it), for all their bluster about the failure of arguments for God’s existence, often don’t even understand the arguments.

Coyne begins:

The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.

Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:

The rabbi made three arguments:

  • You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.”

I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.

Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.

Furthermore, Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.

All that having been said, Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:

Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind?

The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God).

What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past, and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all.

Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct.

The argument can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either:

A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all, or

B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional.

We can then consider the implications of these two options.

If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. Option A, therefore, must be false.

This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power.

Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent, but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God.

When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.

Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.

HeKS

Comments
SS, in general (and following Plato -- cf cites above), a first cause is a self-moved actuating cause, a living soul. For instance, this is the context in which we have responsible, rational freedom. The first cause of the observed cosmos must account for a material world AND a moral one. In that context, person soon becomes a requisite. KF PS: I have already sufficiently corrected your perpetuation of a slander against the design inference. I did so for record so the naive onlooker may recognise what has been done to prejudice education and public policy more broadly. Your resort to the turnabout accusation tactic simply further underscores the dirty agit prop and lawfare nature of what is being done by ruthless secularists. I warn, on bloodily painful and massively destructive history [as in, those who refuse to learn from the past . . . ], that the usurpation of the sword of justice like that by such ruthless secularists is an act of war, 4th generation dirty war that through this and many other similar moves, is de-legitimising the state in our civilisation. Those are very dangerous matches to be playing with.kairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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... a red herring led away to a strawman set alight serves to distract from the focal issue in this thread’s OP.
That’s a pretty good summary of your responses to my comments. Arguments about First Causes do not discredit evolution, and silly comments by some people do not discredit others. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2016
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DS, your antitheses simply set up the contrast between God and not-God, and within the context of trinitarian theism, God the Father vs what is not God the Father, etc. As there is an understanding of God that is triune, it is in that light possible to be of The One Divine Being but not manifest as person of Father, instead as Son or Spirit; hence, some of the the point of Scutum Fidei. That is God/not God is a contrast of being and nature, Father/ not Father, of person (in an older sense of that term which does not imply isolation of individual). And there is much more. But then, this is not the right place or time for the required scale of theological grounding for the framework for such an understanding of God. I note, catechisms and creeds teach summaries on the expectation that one can access scholarship if one needs details worked through across centuries of reflection and debate. If you are truly interested, you may find Grudem a useful introduction, though before this there needs to be a grounding of worldviews and gospel issues leading to a suitably high view of scripture. That the Supreme, necessary being as root of reality is, is a worldviews question. To go on to the warrant and detailed, technical articulation of the specifically Christian tradition and teaching is an exercise in theology. Where Grudem's short introduction is 1,000 pp and full orbed works are routinely 4,000 - 12,000 pp to take up the range of issues connected thereto. This is of course similar to what is required to lay out a significant scientific theory or a field of mathematics. With the compounding factor that for source documents, none of us are now native, educated speakers of relevant languages. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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Seversky, Re #213;
I don’t like the idea of an infinite regress any more than you do. But neither do I like the idea of an uncaused first cause.
A first cause has to be “uncaused”; otherwise it is not the FIRST Cause. An infinite regress is illogical; but a First Cause is merely unfamiliar. If there’s a not-so-crazy third choice, I’ve never heard what it is. There are some questions to which humans might not ever find a rational answer: “why is there something instead of nothing?”; or “how can something have existed without beginning?” I think some people challenge the notion of time precisely to evade this dilemma; but there the cure is worse than the illness.
Just because we don’t like the alternative doesn’t mean it’s right [or wrong]. Of course, there’s no evidence to suggest the universe is arranged to suit my likes or dislikes, or anyone else’s come to that, so who knows?
Agreed. Just because we might never be confident of the answers, that does not make the questions illegitimate. Barring a third choice; we have only infinite regress or First Cause. So, barring a third choice, I go with a First Cause. Of course, there’s no reason to assume a First Cause has the attributes of personhood; it could just be a thing; instead of being a “who” it’s more likely to be a “what”. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2016
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Seversky, in theism, God is the source of the cosmos, its necessary being root cause. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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SS, It seems, sadly, you are determined to further proceed with propagating a rhetorically convenient, radical secular, evolutionary materialist, agenda driven lie. I have already pointed to the UD resources tab, which provides adequate correction. For those interested in a further fair view, I suggest the beginning of the NWE article on ID which is far better than the willfully dishonest hatchet job at Wikipedia:
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Intelligent_design Intelligent design (ID) is the view that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" [1] [--> through an empirical inference on induction, not an interpretation of the past driven by a religious tradition and/or its scriptures] Intelligent design cannot be inferred from complexity alone, since complex patterns often happen by chance. ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan. [--> that is, forms of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information] According to adherents, intelligent design can be detected in the natural laws and structure of the cosmos [--> cosmological design, focussed on fine tuning of the physics of the cosmos]; it also can be detected in at least some features of living things [--> start with the cell and its information rich molecules, esp DNA and proteins]. Greater clarity on the topic may be gained from a discussion of what ID is not considered to be by its leading theorists. Intelligent design generally is not defined the same as creationism, with proponents maintaining that ID relies on scientific evidence rather than on Scripture or religious doctrines. [--> notice the contrast] ID makes no claims about biblical chronology, and technically a person does not have to believe in God to infer intelligent design in nature. As a theory, ID also does not specify the identity or nature of the designer, so it is not the same as natural theology, which reasons from nature to the existence and attributes of God. ID does not claim that all species of living things were created in their present forms, and it does not claim to provide a complete account of the history of the universe or of living things. ID also is not considered by its theorists to be an "argument from ignorance"; that is, intelligent design is not to be inferred simply on the basis that the cause of something is unknown (any more than a person accused of willful intent can be convicted without evidence). According to various adherents, ID does not claim that design must be optimal; something may be intelligently designed even if it is flawed (as are many objects made by humans). ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent. It conflicts with views claiming that there is no real design in the cosmos (e.g., materialistic philosophy) or in living things (e.g., Darwinian evolution) or that design, though real, is undetectable (e.g., some forms of theistic evolution). Because of such conflicts, ID has generated considerable controversy.
That should be enough for record for those interested in a reasonable and responsible view. And of course a red herring led away to a strawman set alight serves to distract from the focal issue in this thread's OP. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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kairosfocus @ 164
Seversky, the classical theistic view has long since been stated, the world was created from no material or quasi-material predecessor. Where, nothing, properly, denotes non-being. And, even through multiverse speculations, it remains so that no material atom based entity or extensional entity like that can but be contingent. Which is not self explanatory. Where also, utter nothing has no casual powers so were there ever that, such would forever obtain. Thus, we must look to necessary being as root of reality. KF
I agree that you cannot get something from absolutely nothing. Not even God could do that. If there had ever been absolutely nothing - not even God - there would still be absolutely nothing. This means that God would have had to create the universe from some sort of precursor 'something'. Which brings us back up against the problem of the infinite regress. I don't like the idea of an infinite regress any more than you do. But neither do I like the idea of an uncaused first cause. It smacks too much declaring an end to the infinite regress by fiat. Just because we don't like the alternative doesn't mean it's right. Of course, there's no evidence to suggest the universe is arranged to suit my likes or dislikes, or anyone else's come to that, so who knows?Seversky
July 10, 2016
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Daniel King @ 183
kairosfocus:
Seversky, the classical theistic view has long since been stated, the world was created from no material or quasi-material predecessor. Where, nothing, properly, denotes non-being. And, even through multiverse speculations, it remains so that no material atom based entity or extensional entity like that can but be contingent. Which is not self explanatory. Where also, utter nothing has no casual powers so were there ever that, such would forever obtain. Thus, we must look to necessary being as root of reality. KF
Is that clear, Seversky?
Umm ... not really.Seversky
July 10, 2016
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mw; Re #205; I do appreciate your comments.
“Creationism/ID is not actually religious” who said that? Surely, there is indeed sound science in those movements. Yes, YEC or OEC may have more religion in their overtones than the broader remit of the spirituality within the ID movement. However, as we all know, in such “science curricula” any intelligence that questions consensus science must be rejected and is not allowed in class, perhaps because Darwinists are afraid their faith-based pseudo-scientific stance, which surely stands on quicksand, will be uncovered for what it is, a beguiling delusion.
Since I don’t know where you are from, mw, I don’t know if you are familiar with the American Constitution. The First Amendment to our Constitution creates a barrier between the State (including all its agents acting in any official capacity) and religion. Since creationism/ID and all its variants are thoroughly religious, they cannot be taught as science in American public schools. As I have written elsewhere on this site, they can be topics of discussion, but they cannot be advocated or taught as science. Religious Liberty concerns prevent that. Michael Ruse’s comments prove only what Michael Ruse thought. No one else is bound by them. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2016
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Mung; regarding #184; I forgive you. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2016
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Origenes; Re #172;
if you really hold that Aquinas’ first-cause arguments are part of ID, then I’m not sure what to say …
Of course Aquinas did not intend them to be, but creationists have adopted them anyway. What matters NOW is that Aquinas’ first-cause arguments are used to bolster creationist arguments. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2016
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bornagain77; Re #168; I did not miss those, I dismissed them as further demonstration of the religious nature of creationism/ID. As to their claims about science, those are unfounded. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2016
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KF; Re #161;
... you again insist on misrepresentation, repeating a long since exposed ID = creationism lie . . . and lie it is, not mere misunderstanding, when it has been sustained year after year in the teeth of cogent correction.
You disagree, I understand that. But your disagreement does not rise to the level of “cogent correction”. ID is just a modern repackaging of one of the OLDEST forms of creationism: the “watchmaker argument” also referred to as the “teleological argument”.
This thread, FYI, is a discussion of philosophical issues, not of design theory. The issues are important and of interest in their own right as can be seen.
It is a discussion of some philosophical issues of design theory.
What is clear, is that the loading of evolutionary materialistic scientism in too much of modern scientific work, declarations and education, is not being sufficiently addressed. And the underlying ontological issues being specifically addressed in the OP are seriously misunderstood by leading advocates of scientific atheism. Who love to dress up in the lab coat while preaching atheism and demanding a privileged establishment, under cover of such being science...
What is clear, is that the attempt to load religious creationism onto the biological sciences and science education must be resisted. And the underlying ontological issues being specifically addressed in the OP are seriously misunderstood by leading advocates of creationism/ID who want to dress up in lab coats while preaching their religion and who demand a privileged religious establishment under pretense of being science. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2016
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Eric, KF, Permit me to offer a few analytical elements to the discussion on the Trinity from a classical Christian perspective. I am keeping it brief in order to make it accessible and provide a rational basis for further discussion. Definitions: [a] Father = The Principle of Generation. [b] Beget vs Create We beget what is like us. We create what is unlike us and inferior to us. God begets God; humans beget humans. God creates man; man creates automobile. [c] Nature = What it is (One God), Person = Who it is (Three Persons) [d] Mystery = A revealed truth that is only partially understood and is above but not contrary to human reason. Accordingly, the Son of God is literally the Father’s only begotten Son, not His inferior creation, just as someone’s human son is literally his son, not his inferior creation. With God it is possible to beget or generate throughout eternity, humans must beget in time. Humans cannot literally become Son’s of God like Jesus Christ, but they can become adopted sons of God. The difference is essential. The Triune God is three persons unified by one Divine nature. This fundamental truth informs all other Christian truths and without it there is no Christianity. The Son of God, Jesus Christ, can take on human flesh and save mankind only if He is really a person, is really God, and can offer Himself up sacrificially as a God/man. He cannot take on human flesh, suffer and save mankind as a “manifestation” of God. A manifestation cannot redeem, suffer, or die. Only a person can do that.StephenB
July 10, 2016
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sean samis, # 58: “bornagain77, KF, Mung, mw, Origenes, Silver Asiatic, StephenB and any others I might have missed: I thank you all for your comments here. Whenever I get someone saying that creationism/ID is not actually religious, I refer them to your comments and those like yours. Your comments make the case for me: Creationism in all its forms is religion. It does not belong in any science curricula except as an example of what science is NOT. Sincerely; thank you.” __________________________________________ "Creationism/ID is not actually religious" who said that? Surely, there is indeed sound science in those movements. Yes, YEC or OEC may have more religion in their overtones than the broader remit of the spirituality within the ID movement. However, as we all know, in such “science curricula” any intelligence that questions consensus science must be rejected and is not allowed in class, perhaps because Darwinists are afraid their faith-based pseudo-scientific stance, which surely stands on quicksand, will be uncovered for what it is, a beguiling delusion. Furthermore, Shamans can do better at looking at dead bones and seeing what they really mean (stasis of kinds) rather than the self-hypnotised who looked at a pig’s tooth and said it was a missing human link; or looked at the Piltdown fiasco, while all king Darwin’s horses and all king Darwin’s men, could not detect a fraud for years and years. Surely, the evidence points to how easily we are beguiled into believing God did not create in six days in terms of divine law. Darwin wanted to believe the Judaeo-Christian God at Sinai was wrong. He debased Christ. Yet, Darwin admitted the fossil evidence was against his theory, but hey oh, who cares as long as we get away from divine law. That is why Darwinism is in huge part an established faith: yes, faith based science; a belief system in natural selection. The golden idol of Darwinism, the whale-bear, every Darwinist establishment should have one, in honour of the fact his publishers removed the reference to the silliness of such an example. No wonder Darwin was hopping mad, for if the imaginary example was deemed unsound, then the rest must, and will eventually fall, like Darwin. In relation to Darwin disbelieving miracles and believing in his mind, the power of natural selection deselected of intelligence and any foreseeing purpose for his idea of natural selection; in faith, Darwin wrote: “If I were convinced that I required such additions to the theory of natural selection, I would reject it as rubbish, but I have firm faith in it, as I cannot believe, that if false. . .” http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?keywords=firm%20faith&pageseq=226&itemID=F1452.2&viewtype=text Darwinist worship the fact they believe they came from none human life, with a tail, pointed ears, and mobilised by dragging their knuckles on bent knees: following the alpha male Darwin. Yes, creationists believe that a higher life form created all life forms. Yes, a belief system, but incorporated with good science, whereas, Darwinism is mostly bad science, the beguiled hope of things wished for, our ancestor was an ape, in order to dismiss divine law and not be accountable. However, sean, it seems that forever and ever, I read that our divine origin, as established under divine law at Sinai cannot be science related. And that is the only damp trump card mustered (powerful, yes), the dismissing of witnesses evidenced in abundance of miracles, and the dismissing of alternative interpretations pointing to evidence against Darwinian creationism. Such is blind science, ditch-bound science, and it must fall with Darwin. Its strength lies in a beguiled faith. Either the God of Sinai was wrong, or Darwin is right. However, both faith-based systems are totally incompatible, despite the attempts of Francisco Ayala, and many others, to make them bed mates in his book, “Darwin’s Gift To Science and Religion,” (2007). Yes, faith in Darwin, that life comes from dead life, and that non humans produce humans. Please demonstrate sean, scientifically, experimentally and conclusively, your belief system? No imaginary words please, no imaginary deviations of convergent evolutions and such like. No imaginary transitional fossils. Give me a scientific law that produces humans from non-humans; life from lifeless matter, something from nothing and no-space. A final note: Michael Ruse, a well known evolutionist, scientist, and defender of evolution wrote: "My area of expertise is the clash between evolutionists and creationists, and my analysis is that we have no simple clash between science and religion, but rather between two religions." {Michael Ruse, The Evolution-Creation Struggle, 2005, p. 287, as quoted by Henry M. Morris in ICR's Back to Genesis, Feb. 2006} However, many sincere thanks for your thoughts Sean.mw
July 10, 2016
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KF,
The triune view of God is making a point analogous to that, save that the unity of being is such that the three persons are inextricably unified as one eternal being.
I wonder if we could apply the world-partition concept to the Trinity. Say we separate the world into {Father | ~Father}. Likewise, we can form {Son | ~Son}, {Holy Spirit | ~Holy Spirit}, and {God | ~God}. Are these partitions all identical? And in the partition {Father | ~Father}, does God lie in Father or ~Father?daveS
July 10, 2016
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A further note in relation to the Holy Trinity. Over the past century, there has been a reported outpouring of mystical experiences. One example is through the Greek Orthodox, Vassula Ryden, whom I saw in England a few years ago speaking and celebrating joint communion with Anglicans/Catholics/Orthodox. Again controversial, and we make out of them what we will. In 1987, Jesus allegedly said to Vassula Ryden: “learn that God and I Am One, I am the Father and the Son… I am One, I am All in One, I am All in One… The Holy Trinity is One.” (Vassula Ryden, True Life in God, original handwriting edition, vol. 1, p. 43), http://www.tlig.co.uk/ However, throughout eternity, that God did not evolve in essence is another difficulty to understand: eternally self-sustaining. Should humans not live forever after being generated by a God given particle (spirit) from God? Our divine ancestor. Should the first uncreated cause not be able to cause Himself to live forever? Would we not want that we could be sustained forever in good circumstances? As for the title, “Son,” (Jn 17:1), that is a mystery equally difficult to understand. Still, in terms of J-C belief, Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection; the firstborn of the new Adam spiritual/material race. A non-evolved creation: a brand new creation, instant and miraculous, as at the beginning, in this case witnessed by many. As for the uncreated God being born created from God: in that aspect, Jesus may be seen as Son of God. The Father may be seen as the uncreated Word or Thought of God. Meaning, perhaps, Jesus/God was eternally begotten in the Mind of God as created living Word. Adam was the “son of God” (Lk 3:38). Jesus generated instantly at His incarnation to be a divine sinless human relative to His Mother being a descendent of Adam. Therefore, He is by birth the son of God to redeem the Adam race. Son or no Son; as Mung pointed out, in Jesus, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells (Col 1:15-19): fully God. "I am" Son of the Father. On my part, a poor attempt at understanding no doubt.mw
July 10, 2016
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I have headlined the video: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fyi-ftr-the-grayling-rowe-debate-on-the-existence-of-god/kairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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F/N: Returning focus to the OP (one of the most important to ever be posted at UD), the continuation is key:
The argument[Rowe made] can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either: A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all [--> utter nothing], or B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional. We can then consider the implications of these two options. If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. [--> non-being has no causal power, so were there ever utter nothing, such would forever obtain] Option A, therefore, must be false. This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power. [--> necessary being as root of a world, with characteristics to be NB and to cause a world] Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent [--> as well as moral, grounding our moral government], but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God. When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.
Again, pivotally important. And BTW, an eternal mind of greatest possible being character would eternally contemplate the infinity of possible worlds, truths, propositions, alternatives and more. Boredom is not an issue. What is striking here is how often serious world root issues are derided and dismissed rhetorically by those who show a shocking ignorance tied to a boldness to traipse into what they do not begin to understand but wish to deride and dismiss. Those are not signs of a healthy intellectual culture. Nor, of one in which leaders are careful of causing the little ones to stumble. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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F/N: EA, being human is not merely a label, or set, it is a nature. That is pivotally important. And it is pivotally important to see that this is involved in something like the scutum fidei. Whether or no you are inclined to agree with it, a fair understanding should reckon with it in its own terms, not those we may project unto it -- such would be a mere strawman caricature. God as complex unity of triune order, One being, three distinct faces or persons of such profound interpenetration and communion that they are utterly inseparable. He who sees the Son has seen the Father, the proceeding Spirit is a paraclete of the SAME nature, allon paracleton not heteros [Jn 14:16, cf 6 also 1:1 ff]. And BTW, read Dan 7:9 - 14 to parse Son of Man, understanding that this text is the basis on which Jesus was out of hand condemned as blasphemous by the Sanhedrin. Then, understand the force of say Rom 1:1 - 5 and Phil 2:5 - 11 or Heb 1:1 - 14 with Cor 15:1 - 11, that the resurrection with 500 witnesses is God's vindication of eternal Sonship a la Psalm 2 and 110. And more.kairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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SB, I also suggest we need to clarify the nature of being across impossible vs possible and contingent vs necessary, to see that as a necessary being entity is independent of external on/off enabling causes a serious candidate wll be either impossible or actual. And if actual, such would be embedded in the foundational framework for a world to exist. For instance, two-ness is directly involved in distinct identity and as such is part of the framework for any possible world. 2 cannot come into being or cease from being, so long as a world exists it must be there. Where, as a world is, we must reckon that given that utter non-being could never root a world, there is necessary being at the root of our world. The issue is the nature of said NB. And God is a serious candidate to be said root. Indeed, given our reality as morally governed, the only such serious candidate. It is not insignificant that objectors have repeatedly been unable to provide a serious alternative to God as basis for a world in which contingency and moral government are major facets. Indeed, credibly, our whole observed cosmos -- the only such observed cosmos -- is contingent. It is commonly dated to a singularity c 13.8 BYA. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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Cabal, you would be well advised to heed the cautions in the OP. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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EA, I point out that the list of four Christian teachers I have given have been among the greatest Biblical thinkers of all time; indeed all can claim to be Doctors of the Church, they may be the four greatest since Paul -- they have positively and profoundly shaped our civilisation and world. So, their collective view is something that should carry weight with us, in light of their actual teachings. In the case of the angelic doctor, Aquinas, maybe the greatest, Summa Theologica is justly regarded as a high point of biblical and theological, philosophical insight that is profound. (In modern times, I suggest that Hodge's Systematic Theology is an excellent point of departure, here freely available from CCEL. Wayne Grudem's introductory level Systematic Theology is readily available in bookstores and through Amazon. My Google search just turned up that a podcast of key topics therein is available online cf here.) In that context, the cumulative Biblical teaching on the nature of God is part of what Peter said (with particular emphasis on Paul's teachings) "contains things which are hard to be understood, which the unstable and unlearned wrench to their own destruction . . . " [--> where is this, what is its life-setting context, why is it crucial?] so we should be very careful indeed in approaching same. At a different level, I point to say the Nicene creed, which is in fact profoundly biblical in its synthetic view and phrasing, as a high point of the biblical thinking of the church. (I here present a tabulation of its scriptural context, and particularly draw attention to Isa 45:15 - 25, Phil 2:5 - 11 [which daringly uses same in a C1 creedal hymn quoted by Paul with approval] and Heb 1:1 - 14 with Col 1:9 - 29. It is not for lack of ability to engage in a discussion on the subject that I have pointed to a need to focus on the main theme of this thread, but because of the weight of the subjects on that theme, multiplied by awareness of the proper focus of this blog. Notice the gleeful declaration of rhetorical intent by SS et al already. I suggest that another venue be found for the engagement of this side subject. Perhaps you may wish to contact me via my handle. And the framing, one being, three persons in indissoluble union is classic and creedal, rooted in centuries of wrestling with the text and issues in the context of painful experience of what Peter warned against. Indeed, the very term, triune reflects this. So is the force of echad, used in a context of reference to complex rather than simple unity in the creedal declaration of Dt 6:4 that is the basis for the great prayer of Judaism. With all due respect, I must suggest that if you or any other person finds him-/her- self not instantly aware of its history of ideas context, then there is much to yet learn to be at independent Bible Study leadership and layman sermon level. It was found that carefully worded exact synthesis was pivotal to avert destructive wrenching, e.g. the struggle to clarify in light of the Arian thrust. At least as careful as that used to formulate legal contracts or laws. On which, it was found that centuries of work were required to get things right given the experiences of successive ways across generations that the words could be and were misunderstood to damaging effect. And note, it is pivotal that those who did the heavy lifting were native speakers of the relevant languages, the homoousios issue being a classic point of hammering out i/l/o nuances of one of the most precise and exact languages ever. Indeed, it has been seriously argued that the spreading of Greek across the Mediterranean world was part of God's provision that c 4 BC was the right time for Messiah. Things like the general purpose Nicene and later more technical Athenasian creeds are a carefully worded synthesis of their profound insight. Today I suggest a dose of humility is that if one cannot instantly call to mind the range of text on a given subject on hearing it [having read through the Bible as a whole many times and having studied the key texts in great detail and experienced transformation of life and soul and mind thereby], and cannot draw forth a balanced and apt synthesis of their message -- the whole counsel of God on a topic, one is not in a position to independently teach at Bible study level. Yes, Bible Study, layman sermon level. At exegetical level, one needs to have mastered Koine Grek, Hebrew and Aramaic, together with the subjects of biblical and systematic theology and hermeneutics. [The already linked tabulation of the Nicene Creed is part of my own street level effort for 101 level education, cf here on.] I will only say, at Bible Translator level, that unless one is a genius, a one man translation effort is not to be taken seriously. Teamwork by people at the top of their game, who know the history and issues involved, is what is called for. (I say this, being aware of a widespread "translation" used by a certain sectarian group, that was done by a committee of the unlearned, who sought to promote their sectarian tendencies. In English, I respect the 1769 revision of the KJV, but recommend the ASV, the RSV, the 1984 NIV, the ESV, the NET Bible, the Jerusalem Bible and the Amplified Bible, all of which can be found freely online at Bible Gateway. Bible.org and Blue Letter Bible are useful. Of Study Bibles, the NIV based on the 84 classic, the Thompson's Chain Reference, The eSWORD, the The Word packages and the like are recommended. The classic commentaries, Bible concordances, Dictionaries etc will be helpful. Strong's Concordance and the dictionaries using its numbering system are especially valuable. Again, please note the linked: http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/some-useful-references-ongoing-work-in.html . Kindly see the references at the end of 174 above also. ) KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2016
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Whenever I feel like my mind needs a boggle, I make a tour of UcD.Cabal
July 10, 2016
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KF @188: I appreciate the references and hold such great thinkers in high esteem. However, being the stubborn recalcitrant that I am, I find myself perhaps more swayed by what scripture itself has to say on the matter. I am also more interested in your personal opinion.
. . . when I say Pope Francis is human, does that mean equality to the exclusion of others, or does it mean, nature of his essential being?
Yes, but "human" is a category that applies to many beings. This is similar to my example 1 @169. We can have numerous humans and can of course say that Pope Francis is a human or is human in his characteristics. But that does not in any way mean that there is no other human. Nor does it mean that every other human, such as David Cameron, is somehow "unified" as a human with Pope Francis. It simply means that we have more than one example in the category or set of humans. So, as I said, one very simple solution to the "mystery" of the Trinity is to propose that the Father is a God, that the Son is a God, etc.
Where, if I then say David Cameron is not Pope Francis, would that contradict that David Cameron is also human?
Of course not. That is because being "human" is a category, a set, of which there are many examples. Again, if we are willing to see Deus as a category or a set, then the conundrum associated with the Shield vanishes.
The triune view of God is making a point analogous to that, save that the unity of being is such that the three persons are inextricably unified as one eternal being.
I understand the intent and appreciate the great effort that must be required to explain something that is often held to be unexplainable. But if the analogy is to hold, then we must be dealing with a set with multiple members in the set, not a claim by fiat that we are dealing with some inextricable unification.
The already linked will give much more. KF
Thank you. I will endeavor to read more if I am able. ----- Incidentally, you may have posted this already, but what is the source of the claim that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are "inextricably unified as one being," rather than being separate individuals? I don't mean that specific term necessarily, I'm fine if that is just your wording. I'm just trying to track down the original source of the idea.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2016
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Mung @190: Please. The New Testament is filled with references to Jesus as the "Son of God." Not all from Jesus himself, though BA77 cited one such instance. Your other examples, however, are worth discussing. One of the biggest challenges in any exegesis of scripture is understanding what is literal and what is symbolic.* As I said, one of the potential approaches to the Trinitarian doctrine would be to view the "persons" of the Father and Son as symbolic. That is one possible approach to the issue. Instructively, however, even in the other (potentially symbolic) examples you cited from scripture, we have someone being called a son of someone else. Even when used symbolically, it is still a normal use of language. In other words, if you are a son, you are a son of someone. What is not rational is to say that you are a son of yourself. Whether symbolically or literally, that is an abuse of language. Now we could go beyond normal language usage and beyond the other symbolic examples in the scriptures where one being is called a son of another being -- we could go beyond all that and claim that the characteristics of the "Son" in the New Testament are simply one manifestation of the being that is God. Then we are back to the "the-word-son-doesn't-mean-what-it-normally-does-in-English" type of argument I addressed previously. Perhaps. It could be. Just not very satisfactory intellectually. ----- * This is part of the reason why we should generally give greater weight to experiential, empirical, observed, witnessed evidence in scripture, than to discourses or similar statements that may very readily be symbolic, literary, or figurative in nature.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2016
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Hi Origenes. It is a privilege to interact with you on such a high level of analysis. You write, “God’s nature is self-sustaining, but I would like to know how self-sustaining works. We agree that there is no external explanation, but I would like to have an internal explanation of His continued existence.” Recall that with God we are in the realm of pure spirit. For that reason, I think His continuing existence can be best explained by an inherent power associated with His nature rather than an internal process, which would suggest the activity of matter in motion, something that would not exist in a purely spiritual being. Let’s scale it down to the level of the creature. Humans, who are made in the image of God, though not pure spirits, do have a spiritual nature. From a Christian perspective, each person made in that same image, is composed of body, which has a material nature, and a soul, which has a spiritual nature. Because the human body is made up of material parts such as the brain, it can disintegrate, which means that it can die and will eventually cease to exist (unless resurrected or brought back by a miracle). The human soul, on the other hand, which includes the spiritual faculties of mind and will, does not contain material parts, which means that it cannot disintegrate or die. Thus, from a Christian perspective, it would make sense to speak of the mind’s inherent and enduring power to live forever (spirit), and the brain’s internal processes, which will finally come to an end (matter). To have spirit--human, angelic, or Divine-- is to live forever.
On a more general note, do you agree that saying that something “is” X, does not explain X?
Yes, I agree that in most circumstances, especially with respect to material beings, objects, and processes, to say that X “is” does not explain X. As a general rule, it is, as you point out, a far different thing to explain what a thing is than to explain how it works. .
However, if I understand you correctly, you hold that there is no explanation for God’s continued existence — other than, ‘that’s how He “is”’. Am I correct, that by ‘self-sustaining’ you mean ‘no external explanation and therefore no explanation’?
Since we are dealing with a mystery, I can only say that it is, indeed, a mystery. However, to say that God is a self sustaining being does constitute an explanation of why God continues to exist even if it cannot explain how it is possible or what the self-sustaining “process” might be—even if a process is involved at all, which I doubt. I think processes are exclusive to the realm of time/matter/space and have nothing to do with spirit.
Let’s say that I was referring to God’s free will. There is no external explanation, but there may be an internal explanation.
As indicated, I think it has more to do with inherent power than with internal processes. Ultimately, though, I think the power and goodness of God is too magnificent to be explained at all, though I think His existence can be easily demonstrated. I do think it is possible for saints to achieve a higher level of infused knowledge through prayer and mystical experience than what has been revealed or can be known by reason, though it is only a tiny glimpse of the real thing, which can be experience only in the next life. If God could be explained in mere words, He would not be all that great.
One more question WRT the LOI: Do you hold that it is in accord with the Law of Identity, if I state that, during my state of self-awareness, I am, at the same time and in the same sense, observer and observee?
I am not sure that I know what it means to be an observer in the same sense that one is an observee. However, in terms of the other two conditions, my instinctive response is to say that one can be the observer and the observee at exactly the same time, but he cannot think of himself as an observer and think of himself as an observee at exactly the same time.StephenB
July 9, 2016
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EA, again, I point to the linked and again I point to the issue of this context with a lot already on the table for this thread that is of first rank. As a very simple and rather initial point [tied to the question of contradictions], when I say Pope Francis is human, does that mean equality to the exclusion of others, or does it mean, nature of his essential being? Where, if I then say David Cameron is not Pope Francis, would that contradict that David Cameron is also human? The triune view of God is making a point analogous to that, save that the unity of being is such that the three persons are inextricably unified as one eternal being. (And person here is used in a much older sense.) The already linked will give much more. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.Mung
July 9, 2016
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Eric Anderson: (a) If Jesus is, as he said, the Son of God, then one might be forgiven for thinking that He was actually a Son in some substantive sense. Huh? First, where did Jesus claim to be the Son of God? Second, what does it mean to be a Son of Satan in some substantive sense? Third, what ought we to make of children of God language in the Bible?Mung
July 9, 2016
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