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Prominent Atheists Fundamentally Misunderstand First-Cause Arguments

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Recently, a debate was held in London between theist philosopher Rabbi Daniel Rowe and atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling. The subject under dispute, unsurprisingly, was God’s existence. It’s a very interesting debate to watch. I’d never heard of Rowe before, but I was familiar with Grayling, who is sometimes referred to as the Fifth Horseman of New Atheism.

Generally speaking, the “New Atheists” haven’t shown any natural genius for philosophy. Grayling, though being a professional philosopher, does not prove to be the exception here. Instead, he shows that even when they have the benefit of philosophical training, it does them very little good when they engage in debates over God’s existence. I think it would be pretty uncontroversial to say that Rowe won the debate rather decisively. Grayling often seemed so far out of his depth that it was even making me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how Grayling must have been feeling.

In an article at ENV, David Klinghoffer has pointed out that Jerry Coyne agrees. Writing at his blog, Why Evolution is True, Coyne says:

I have to admit to finding the prospect of an orthodox rabbi holding his own in a debate with Dr. Grayling on God’s existence rather disheartening, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what went down the other night in London.

If there’s anything inaccurate in this description of the debate it’s Coyne’s characterization of Rowe as merely “holding his own”.  Anyone who watches the debate will see that Rowe did much more than that. What I want to comment on, however, is the argument that Coyne thinks he would have used were he in Grayling’s shoes, because it demonstrates that prominent figures within the New Atheism movement (or whatever you want to call it), for all their bluster about the failure of arguments for God’s existence, often don’t even understand the arguments.

Coyne begins:

The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.

Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:

The rabbi made three arguments:

  • You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.”

I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.

Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.

Furthermore, Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.

All that having been said, Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:

Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind?

The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God).

What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past, and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all.

Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct.

The argument can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either:

A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all, or

B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional.

We can then consider the implications of these two options.

If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. Option A, therefore, must be false.

This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power.

Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent, but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God.

When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.

Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.

HeKS

Comments
CLAVDIVS:
The Son is God (A=B) The Triune Godhead is God (C=B) The Son is not the Triune Godhead (A C) ...the Son both is and is not the Triune Godhead. QED
No. The Triune God consists of three Divine persons and one Divine nature. Thus, they are not said to be both three and one in the same sense. The Son is not one with the Triune God in the sense of personhood, only in the sense of nature. The law of Identity holds that A cannot also be not A at the same time and in the same sense. The Christian Trinity does not violate the Law of Non-contradiction.StephenB
July 8, 2016
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DS, once any entity is distinct, the dichotomising obtains, thus DDI, and instantly LOI, LNC, LEM. Notice from Paul's example of songs and trumpet calls, there is free communication between a world of sounds and the world of ideas, tunes and battle calls -- a worm wriggling by may detect the sound but does not understand the meaning. Just as, a little while ago, I notices an egret on a fence, opening the beak and vibrating the throat at about 10 Hz, but no audible sound was there in the human hearing band. Soon another joined it on the fence and the two were there singing away in the infrasound zone, I assume; inaudible to me but clearly meaningful to them; though of course birds will not be discussing deep abstractions such as are used in Mathematics. No, the thought world is not locked away inside an ugly gulch from the world of things in themselves, that too is a case of self referential incoherence as F H Bradley pointed out in 1897. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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DS, when they criticise LEM etc, they are using what they would oppose, as they rely on distinct identity. Once there is a dichotomy of the world and its contents, W = {A | ~A} then immediately, the dividing line is not a zone, it is a line, any y in W must be on one side or the other, it cannot sit on the line and it is excluded from being out of W as W is the relevant reality in the widest sense. You can set up a model world sandbox, but to do so you will instantly rely on the LEM. That is why something like Fuzzy Logic with partial memberships is NOT exceptional to the principle. But one can cling to the absurdity of undermining the foundation on which s/he must stand to attempt any rational interaction with reality. That is why I am emphasising that to communicate or argue or even think inside our own heads we must implicitly rely on distinct identity. And once that dichotomising obtains, LEM is instantly present as part of its meaning, alongside LOI and LNC. Kindly see again what I have laid out. KF PS: I do not have time just now to host a thread. Maybe HeKS or SB or even Mung (IIRC) would do so.kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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KF, Regarding your illustration:
Again, I summarise (cf here):
A, say a bright red ball on a table, in the world W. W in the widest relevant sense. W = { A | ~A }, dichotomy of distinct identity — henceforward, DDI. A is itself, [A => A] = 1, LOI No x in W is such that x is both A and ~A, [A AND ~A] = 0, LNC No y in W is such that y is in both A and ~A or in neither A and ~A. [A X-OR ~A] = 1, LEM.
Almost trivial, but oh so pivotal, so pregnant with the utmost consequences!
If we are dealing with physical objects in the universe, then this sounds reasonable to me (in fact, my example of locating coolant in an auto-parts store is quite similar). Is this argument meant to apply more generally, so that you can partition the collection of all "things" in the world, including abstractions, into a disjoint union of A and its complement, for any collection A?daveS
July 8, 2016
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KF,
I have also spoken of the triple first principles of right reason, present instantly as distinct identity is present. ... Those are immediately present and inseparable, they are not inferred logically the one from the other, as such inference implicitly uses said laws.
Apparently not; it's not clear to me that each entails the other two either. If another thread more suited to that topic is posted, I will explain my concerns.
Indeed, as you have acknowledged then sidestepped, just to argue about such you are using letters and words that depend on distinct identity and its concomitants.
I did freely acknowledge that, but please, I didn't sidestep anything.
If you refuse this, you lock yourself out of rational discussion.
If you look through the table of contents of a journal on philosophical logic, you will find many instances of authors criticizing even such sacred laws/rules as LEM, modus tollens, modus ponens (!), etc. And some of these criticisms are very difficult to respond to. If there do exist violations of these laws, that doesn't necessarily mean that all rational discussion is out the window. They could still hold in restricted domains, albeit not universally. Just as we cannot expect to apply unrestricted set comprehension without getting into trouble (Russell's Paradox), yet restricted set comprehension is safe.
PS: And to set up and argue about the sandbox system of intuitionistic logic or the like do or do not the proponents rely on distinct identity? Patently, they do. So any sound understanding of such systems must reckon with this on pain of self referential absurdity. Shutting one’s eyes to a relevant consideration is not a sign of the good logical health of such a scheme.
I will repeat once more that I haven't denied the concept of distinct identity. I don't think Brouwer and other intuitionists have either. Yet they elect not to hold LEM to be universally true, for reasons stemming from their metaphysical views. I don't know how to evaluate the "logical health" of their scheme, but as I stated above, they seem to do ok. If you can show that intuitionist mathematics is "ill", I would like to see some specifics (in another thread of course).daveS
July 8, 2016
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Now, can we get back to the first cause issue? Maybe starting from Plato?kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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DS & Mung: Let's pick up DS at 54:
Mung, I wouldn’t try to make too much of that if I were you. It just isn’t all that difficult to find support for kf’s position on that. For example: Hm, so Foreman believes each of the three laws entails the other? That is different from what KF posted, surely; I wouldn’t mind seeing an argument for Foreman’s claim however. Really, what you are saying is that you are more logical and rational than the rest of us. Why do you think so? No, I’m absolutely not saying that. I could be wrong and you could be right.
Now, what Mung said and cited :
daveS: Notice how he referred to LOI, LNC, and LEM as “direct corollaries” of distinct identity? I wouldn’t try to make too much of that if I were you. It just isn’t all that difficult to find support for kf’s position on that. For example: The observation has been made that these three laws all seem to be saying the same thing. In a sense that is true. They mutually entail each other to the point where if one is true, then the others follow. Prelude to Philosophy
The force of what Mung says is not that one may prove the one from the other -- all such proof attempts will shipwreck on having to use implicitly what one wishes to prove (starting with distinct identity) -- but that there is a mutual, triune core to logic such that the one involves and directly, inseparably, inexorably leads to the other. Yes, this is another trinity: the core triply manifest faces of the foundation of right and responsible reason, thought and communication rooted in distinct identity. Of common rank and nature so that once one understands the one instantly the other two are implicitly present and can be discussed as faces of the crystalline core of rationality. Again, I summarise (cf here):
A, say a bright red ball on a table, in the world W. W in the widest relevant sense. W = { A | ~A }, dichotomy of distinct identity -- henceforward, DDI. A is itself, [A => A] = 1, LOI No x in W is such that x is both A and ~A, [A AND ~A] = 0, LNC No y in W is such that y is in both A and ~A or in neither A and ~A. [A X-OR ~A] = 1, LEM.
Almost trivial, but oh so pivotal, so pregnant with the utmost consequences! The above is NOT a proof or even a proposition antecedent to these laws. Just by stating these things, the triune first principles of right reason are everywhere manifest. Inescapable. To communicate we use symbols with distinct identity. The three laws are already present from the first step. We CANNOT prove these, we prove from these forced first premises. I seek to help us understand self evident truth by pointing to the unifying core of distinct identity. St Paul, likely reflecting Greek tutors of his youth, gives a classic statement that is well worth again focussing, from 1 Cor 14:
1 Cor 14:7 If even inanimate musical instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone [listening] know or understand what is played? 8 And if the war bugle gives an uncertain (indistinct) call, who will prepare for battle? 9 Just so it is with you; if you in the [unknown] tongue speak words that are not intelligible, how will anyone understand what you are saying? For you will be talking into empty space! 10 There are, I suppose, all these many [to us unknown] tongues in the world [somewhere], and none is destitute of [its own power of] expression and meaning. 11 But if I do not know the force and significance of the speech (language), I shall seem to be a foreigner to the one who speaks [to me], and the speaker who addresses [me] will seem a foreigner to me. [AMP]
The Apostle, Martyr and greatest Christian theologian, but one, is right. And he embeds the triple principles in foundational Christian theology. Just as, he points out the pivotal nature of the prophesied, fulfulled Messiah in 1 Cor 15, and as he used this in speaking to our sense of God on Mars Hill and as that again appears in the opening words of Romans, which then goes on to a searing diagnostic as to how and why we rebel against and suppress the knowledge of the root reality of God and so of our being under moral government:
Rom 1:1 Paul, a [a]bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle (special messenger, personally chosen representative), set apart for [preaching] the [b]gospel of God [the good news of salvation], 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the sacred Scriptures— 3 [the good news] regarding His Son, who, as to the flesh [His human nature], was born a descendant of David [to fulfill the covenant promises], 4 and [as to His divine nature] according to the Spirit of holiness was openly designated to be the Son of God with power [in a triumphant and miraculous way] by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 It is through Him that we have received grace and [our] apostleship to promote obedience to the faith and make disciples for His name’s sake among all the Gentiles . . . . 16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation [from His wrath and punishment] to everyone who believes [in Christ as Savior], to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed in a way that awakens more faith]. As it is written and forever remains written, “The just and upright shall live by faith.” 18 For [God does not overlook sin and] the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in their wickedness suppress and stifle the truth, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them [in their inner consciousness], for God made it evident to them. 20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense. 21 For even though [d]they knew God [as the Creator], they did not [e]honor Him as God or give thanks [for His wondrous creation]. On the contrary, they became worthless in their thinking [godless, with pointless reasonings, and silly speculations], and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God for [f]an image [worthless idols] in the shape of mortal man and birds and four-footed animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their own hearts to [sexual] impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin], 25 because [by choice] they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen . . . . 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or consider Him worth knowing [as their Creator], God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do things which are improper and repulsive, 29 until they were filled (permeated, saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice and mean-spiritedness. They are gossips [spreading rumors], 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors [of new forms] of evil, disobedient and disrespectful to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful [without pity]. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree and His judgment, that those who do such things deserve death, yet they not only do them, but they even [enthusiastically] approve and tolerate others who practice them. [AMP]
A grim warning on the matches we trifle with, c 57 AD. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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CLAVDIVS, yes, the classic understanding is that the trinity is a revealed not a mathematical or philosophical truth. Similarly, when two senses of a term are relevant in a context, it is an error of ambiguity to conflate them. For your benefit if you are now willing, and for the reasonable, responsible onlooker, I again cite from Wikipedia (yes, this is THAT readily accessible):
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. ‘triad’, from trinus, “threefold”)[1] holds that God is three consubstantial persons[2] or hypostases[3]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as “one God in three Divine Persons”. The three persons are distinct, yet are one “substance, essence or nature”.[4] In this context, a “nature” is what one is, whereas a “person” is who one is.[5][6][7] According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[citation needed] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, “it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds”) and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and each is God, whole and entire”.[8] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are “from the Father”, “through the Son” and “in the Holy Spirit”.[9] . . .
The older version (I find that for many things, when Wiki gets something good, subsequent changes often take away significant things):
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity, one of the most important in the Christian faith, teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons (Greek: hypostases)[1] in one divine Being (Greek: Ousia), called the Godhead.[2] Saying that God exists as three persons but is one God means that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well. “Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, omniscient.”[3] . . . . Personhood in the Trinity does not match the common Western understanding of “person” as used in the English language—it does not imply an “individual, self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity.”[9] To the ancients, personhood “was in some sense individual, but always in community as well.”[9]:p.186 In the Trinity doctrine, each person is understood as having the same identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.
Then, despite the fault line that can be seen in the above clip on it (which I need not further reproduce), the wiki remark on the 800 year old Scutum Fidei, is significant:
The main achievement of the Shield of the Trinity diagram is to transfer a large part of the essential “mystery” or “paradox” of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity from the realm of complex verbal philosophical abstractions and esoteric theological vocabulary to the realm of simple logic, as presented in the relatively easily graspable form of a concrete and conveniently compact visual diagram. It is remarkable as a basically successful attempt, roughly 800 years old, to represent a complex set of abstract concepts in precise graphic form (as opposed to many of the near-contemporary attempts of Joachim of Fiore and Raymund Lull, which were not so successful). Thus it is perhaps one of the oldest widely attested “graphs”, in the sense of graph theory (technically, it is a complete graph on 4 vertices, the same as the vertices and edges of a tetrahedron).
The diagram is very powerful, especially in its original form with emphasis on the crucified, risen messiah, which brings to bear the centrality of the prophetic tradition that speaks to messiah, the fulfillment and gospel commission. Thus the theology is backed by a history of God's intervention in history and the impact on the kingdoms of man of the stone cut without human hands from Mt Zion. It is in that context that we consider the God revealed with power. And in that context we find complex unity [specifically using the complex unity of the triangle or its 3-d extension, the tetrahedron], one Divine Nature manifest in three persons or faces, focussed through Messiah. Where, the visual structure speaks truly and powerfully . . . and coherently. Father, Son, Spirit are the three faces of the one common divine nature we deal with. Again, that should be more than enough to address anything a reasonable person expects, relevant to this thread. The triune view of Godhead is not incoherent, but it is conceptually challenging. (I have sometimes asked people whether one can stand at just one place and be due North of London, Kingston and Los Angeles. The intuitive reaction is to think in 2d and doubt it. The more conceptually challenging but correct answer is that the N Pole is simultaneously due north of every point on Earth's surface apart from itself. Many perceived contradictions reflect inadequate conception, not reality. Note again, the shamrock story.) The matter at stake in the main remains and I believe it is pivotal to address it. Unless and until you show substantial engagement of the historic Christian understanding, you will be doing little more than indulging red herring and strawman fallacies. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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Euclid's Elements Book 1 Common Notions 1. Things which equal the same thing also equal one another.CLAVDIVS
July 8, 2016
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kairosfocus The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us the "Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone". But never mind, kairosfocus will set them straight. Soon he will explain which of the following premisses is false: The Son is God (A = B) The Triune Godhead is God (C = B) The Son is not the Triune Godhead (A not.eq C)CLAVDIVS
July 8, 2016
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PPS: Self-moved, self-evident, and more; we see reflexivity [which implies complex unity] everywhere . . .kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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PS: Notice the significance of describing the en-souled first mover in reflexive terms: the self-moved. This points to an essential complex unity that blends simplicity and complexity in the order of being that becomes the level of the self. (So, yes, the issue of the one and the many -- which includes the issue of complex unity and thus the en-souled, self-moved purposive first cause -- is also a root level worldviews question.)kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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F/N 2: Let us zoom back a bit and see Plato's wider context:
Ath. Then, by Heaven, we have discovered the source of this vain opinion of all those physical investigators; and I would have you examine their arguments with the utmost care, for their impiety is a very serious matter; they not only make a bad and mistaken use of argument, but they lead away the minds of others: that is my opinion of them. Cle. You are right; but I should like to know how this happens. Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular. Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir. Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods. Cle. Still I do not understand you. Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul's kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body? Cle. Certainly. Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind. Cle. But why is the word "nature" wrong? Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise. [[ . . . .] Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]
KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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CLAVDIVS, you just spoke with utter, willful disregard to truth with patent intent to mislead. I pointed out over and over above adequate and cogent response that you refused to engage [meriting my observations about incorrigible errors], and yet your onward remarks pretend that that which is directly there and in onward links does not exist. If you cannot be trusted to speak truthfully about facts immediately present, you cannot be trusted to be responsible or reasonable. I therefore simply point out this unpleasant but justified conclusion, and pass on back to the main focus. KF PS: If one refuses to recognise the nature of complex unity and then accuses others who do so of contradiction, then it is entirely in order to point out the triangle [the first plane figure from Geometry] and the shamrock. Onward refusal and rhetorical assertions pivoting on denial of complex unity then fall to the ground. Scutum Fidei speaks, across 800 years, decisively.kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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Kairosfocus The side of a triangle is not the whole triangle. The leaf of a clover is not the whole clover. But the Son is wholly God. And the Father is wholly God. And the Spirit is wholly God. But the Son is not the Father nor the Spirit. The analogy to a clover or a triangle utterly fails. The Trinity is a violation of the LNC.CLAVDIVS
July 8, 2016
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F/N: As first cause arguments are on the table, let me cite Plato in The Laws, Bk X:
Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]
KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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CLAVDIVS, nope, on the contrary, there you go further insisting on a loaded, distractive tangent of errors in the teeth of cogent and substantial correction. I point to Scutum Fidei (esp the original manuscript depiction) as a more than adequate answer -- the matter can be reduced to a network diagram that is coherent and has been so for 800 years, and point out the need to return to focus. Of course, Wiki itself fails to see the force of distinctions of meaning involved. God is complex unity manifest of triune order, much as a triangle or a shamrock leaf are. Once we are willing to understand the need to avoid fallacies of ambiguity, the whole makes excellent sense. Father, Son and Spirit are mutually distinct "faces" of the one true eternal being of the Godhead, whilst the unity of the Godhead is not dissoluble even as a triangle cannot lose its classic trifold character while retaining its unified distinct identity. Our problem is conceptual inadequacy, not incoherence of the core principle. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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PPPS: Scutum Fidei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity Note Wiki's comment:
Significance The main achievement of the Shield of the Trinity diagram is to transfer a large part of the essential "mystery" or "paradox" of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity from the realm of complex verbal philosophical abstractions and esoteric theological vocabulary to the realm of simple logic, as presented in the relatively easily graspable form of a concrete and conveniently compact visual diagram. It is remarkable as a basically successful attempt, roughly 800 years old, to represent a complex set of abstract concepts in precise graphic form (as opposed to many of the near-contemporary attempts of Joachim of Fiore and Raymund Lull, which were not so successful). Thus it is perhaps one of the oldest widely attested "graphs", in the sense of graph theory (technically, it is a complete graph on 4 vertices, the same as the vertices and edges of a tetrahedron). Of course, if the diagram is interpreted according to ordinary logic, then it contains a number of contradictions (since the set of twelve propositions listed above is mutually contradictory). However, if the three links connecting the three outer nodes of the diagram to the center node are interpreted as representing a non-transitive quasi-equivalence relation (where the statement "A is equivalent to C" does not follow from the two statements "A is equivalent to B" and "B is equivalent to C"), then the diagram is fully logically coherent and non-self-contradictory. So the medieval Shield of the Trinity diagram could be considered to contain some implicit kernel of the idea of alternative logical systems. Unlike some other logical or mathematical constructs sometimes offered as analogies for the Trinity (such as the Venn diagram and the cube viewed by inhabitants of a two-dimensional plane), the Shield of the Trinity does not too easily lend itself to interpretations which are non-orthodox from the traditional mainstream Christian point of view.
kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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Mung, kairosfocus There you go - the Trinity remains an example of something that violates the LNC. Kairosfocus says he *could* refute it as an example, but he's not going to bother because ... reasons. Which I take to mean he can't refute it. QEDCLAVDIVS
July 8, 2016
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CLAVDIVS, with all due respect, you are here insistently committing all sorts of fallacies of confused contexts of meaning which were already substantially corrected. Enough has already been said for the responsible, reasonable onlooker; I decline to further try to debate one who -- on long track record -- is utterly unlikely to be responsive to substantial arguments on a loaded, distractive tangent that is off topic not only for this thread but this blog. For this thread, it is enough to see that design objectors frequently have problems starting with first, self evident principles of right reason, leading to hopeless and incorrigible confusions and unacknowledged self-falsifying self-referential contradictions all down the line from that point. They literally need to go back to the beginnings of right, responsible reason to set their thinking straight; but are typically most disinclined to do so. I suggest here on for a 101 for those serious to set things straight. KF PS: Those interested in the Trinity may wish to start: https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm PPS: The Shield of Faith diagram available online (and at one time said to be the Heraldic Arms of the Triune God!) may also help those who wish to have a clearer view.kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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F/N: Collins English Dict (which has earned my respect for its refreshingly insightful definitions):
corollary (k??r?l?r?) n, pl -laries 1. (Logic) a proposition that follows directly from the proof of another proposition 2. an obvious deduction 3. a natural consequence or result adj consequent or resultant [C14: from Latin coroll?rium money paid for a garland, from Latin corolla garland, from cor?na crown] Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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kairosfocus So which of the following premisses is incorrect? The Son is God (A = B) The Triune Godhead is God (C = B) The Son is not the Triune Godhead (A not.eq C)CLAVDIVS
July 8, 2016
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Mung (attn DS), you see why I will often state LEM in full X-OR terms, A X-OR ~A. No y in W = {A | ~A} can be in [A AND ~A] -- both zones of the partition, or in neither zone of the partition due to the dichotomy imposed by the distinct identity of A. (I have often chosen a bright red ball on a table by way of concrete example.) Again, without recognising, acknowledging and accepting this, neither reasoned thought nor rational, intelligible communication can proceed. Those who try to deny inherently rely on what they deny to assert their case. Thus, attempted denial is patently absurd, we have here a self-evident first truth. KF PS: And to set up and argue about the sandbox system of intuitionistic logic or the like do or do not the proponents rely on distinct identity? Patently, they do. So any sound understanding of such systems must reckon with this on pain of self referential absurdity. Shutting one's eyes to a relevant consideration is not a sign of the good logical health of such a scheme.kairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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CLAVIDIVS, I suggest a closer study of the actual doctrine of the Trinity to understand what Christians have actually taught. Even Wiki would set you on firmer ground:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from trinus, "threefold")[1] holds that God is three consubstantial persons[2] or hypostases[3]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[5][6][7] According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[citation needed] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and each is God, whole and entire".[8] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are "from the Father", "through the Son" and "in the Holy Spirit".[9] . . .
An earlier, in some ways more informative version of the same article reads:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity, one of the most important in the Christian faith, teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons (Greek: hypostases)[1] in one divine Being (Greek: Ousia), called the Godhead.[2] Saying that God exists as three persons but is one God means that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well. "Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, omniscient."[3] . . . . Personhood in the Trinity does not match the common Western understanding of "person" as used in the English language—it does not imply an "individual, self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity."[9] To the ancients, personhood "was in some sense individual, but always in community as well."[9]:p.186 In the Trinity doctrine, each person is understood as having the same identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.
In short there is here a complex unity view of the Godhead, whereby the unity and the diversity refer to differing aspects, thus there is no contradiction of reference to A and ~A in the same sense and circumstances. The story -- likely apocryphal, but the point is relevant -- is told that St Patrick was challenged on the creedal orthodox Christian understanding of the Godhead. A former slave-shepherd in Ireland, he bent down and plucked a three leaf clover. Straightening up, he then spoke:
"How many leaves are there here? If but one, then why are there three lobes? If three, then why is there but one stem? If you cannot explain the mystery of the shamrock leaf, why then do you expect me to explain the far more profound one of the Trinity?"
Per the story, that is how the clover became the symbol of Christian Ireland. Whatever its factual status (unlikely) it brings out the issue of complex, indissoluble unity as part of the essence of an entity. And, it forces us to more deeply understand what LNC means. Loaded tangent fails, let us refocus. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2016
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DS, I have also spoken of the triple first principles of right reason, present instantly as distinct identity is present. In short the three are inextricably intertwined, as can be seen from W = {A | ~A}. On this, instantly, A is itself (as opposed to not itself), no x in W can be A and ~A at the same time due to the dichotomy's import, and no y in W can be such that it is in both partitions or neither. Those are immediately present and inseparable, they are not inferred logically the one from the other, as such inference implicitly uses said laws. Indeed, as you have acknowledged then sidestepped, just to argue about such you are using letters and words that depend on distinct identity and its concomitants. We deal here with a literally unprovable triple-law, a truth of insight and recognition that to proceed further we must accept this, which is the basis assumed in all reason and rational communication dependent on distinct identity. St Paul put it in terms of musical instruments making a clear and distinct sound pattern, as opposed to a confusion of noise. If you refuse this, you lock yourself out of rational discussion. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2016
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Mung When you find a reality that allows a thing to both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same respect do let us know. The Son is God (A=B) The Triune Godhead is God (C=B) The Son is not the Triune Godhead (A C) So according to the Christian concept of the Trinity, the Son both is and is not the Triune Godhead. QEDCLAVDIVS
July 7, 2016
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Correction to my #71, first sentence of last paragraph:
Well, that just means there’s one less rule of inference axiom that can be used in constructing valid arguments.
daveS
July 7, 2016
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as to: "I agree with you that it would be interesting to know how it works for God to autonomously generate vast amounts of energy," Okie Dokie, let's take a look at a single photon to see if we can at least garner some hints as to how He might have done it: Double Slit, Quantum-Electrodynamics, and Christian Theism – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1127450170601248/?type=2&theaterbornagain77
July 7, 2016
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Mung,
A thing either exists or it does not exist. Even you seem to accept this as a self evident truth.
Yes, I don't have any criticism of that.
What would a thing in the middle of existence and non-existence look like? Would it appear as if it exists? Would it appear as if it does not exist? Would it appear as if it both exists and does not exist?
I don't know. There might be other propositions P, not pertaining to existence, such that P or not P is more problematic.
If you have an objection to the law of excluded middle we’d all like to hear it, or not hear it, or both.
I don't have any objections to it, but I know philosophers such as L. E. J. Brouwer, Michael Dummett, and Neil Tennant have raised some criticisms. A couple of examples which some say are violations of LEM are given here.
And the fundamental question remains, what principles of logic will you use to analyze arguments if you exclude the law of excluded middle?
Well, that just means there's one less rule of inference that can be used in constructing valid arguments. I'm not sure what the difficulty would be. You would just have to check whether the conclusion is true whenever the premises are true. The LEM is not universally valid in intuitionistic logic, and I think people who use that system do fine.daveS
July 7, 2016
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Silver Asiatic @43 & daveS @51
Silver Asiatic: one common atheistic argument is that “there is no observed scientific evidence that God exists”. That is obviously foolish, for reasons we discussed previously.
I would suggest a slight clarification on the idea of "observed scientific evidence that God exists", as I think that such a claim can be easily misunderstood. When we talk about scientific evidence for God's existence, what we typically mean is not that there is scientific evidence for the conclusion, "God exists", but that there is scientific evidence for the premises of deductive arguments for God's existence. We would not really expect to have direct scientific evidence for the existence of a being like God, but we would expect and certainly do have significant amounts of scientific evidence supporting the premises of arguments that lead to the conclusion of God's existence as a matter of logical necessity. Anyway, perhaps I'm being nitpicky here, but it just seems like an area where there is room for some misunderstanding that might interfere with productive discussion.HeKS
July 7, 2016
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