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Prominent Atheists Fundamentally Misunderstand First-Cause Arguments

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Recently, a debate was held in London between theist philosopher Rabbi Daniel Rowe and atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling. The subject under dispute, unsurprisingly, was God’s existence. It’s a very interesting debate to watch. I’d never heard of Rowe before, but I was familiar with Grayling, who is sometimes referred to as the Fifth Horseman of New Atheism.

Generally speaking, the “New Atheists” haven’t shown any natural genius for philosophy. Grayling, though being a professional philosopher, does not prove to be the exception here. Instead, he shows that even when they have the benefit of philosophical training, it does them very little good when they engage in debates over God’s existence. I think it would be pretty uncontroversial to say that Rowe won the debate rather decisively. Grayling often seemed so far out of his depth that it was even making me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how Grayling must have been feeling.

In an article at ENV, David Klinghoffer has pointed out that Jerry Coyne agrees. Writing at his blog, Why Evolution is True, Coyne says:

I have to admit to finding the prospect of an orthodox rabbi holding his own in a debate with Dr. Grayling on God’s existence rather disheartening, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what went down the other night in London.

If there’s anything inaccurate in this description of the debate it’s Coyne’s characterization of Rowe as merely “holding his own”.  Anyone who watches the debate will see that Rowe did much more than that. What I want to comment on, however, is the argument that Coyne thinks he would have used were he in Grayling’s shoes, because it demonstrates that prominent figures within the New Atheism movement (or whatever you want to call it), for all their bluster about the failure of arguments for God’s existence, often don’t even understand the arguments.

Coyne begins:

The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.

Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:

The rabbi made three arguments:

  • You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.”

I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.

Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.

Furthermore, Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.

All that having been said, Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:

Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind?

The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God).

What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past, and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all.

Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct.

The argument can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either:

A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all, or

B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional.

We can then consider the implications of these two options.

If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. Option A, therefore, must be false.

This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power.

Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent, but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God.

When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.

Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.

HeKS

Comments
Origenes @35
let’s consider this:
HeKS: … the image the Bible presents is one of God creating all of material reality from a vast outpouring of energy.
Now the question may arise ‘how is this energy generated?’ or ‘how does that work, without an external energy source?’ The answer to this question cannot be: ‘logically He must have this energy otherwise we cannot explain the existence of the universe’. Such an answer may very well be logically coherent but is not an answer to the question. If God is an autonomous source of energy, it would be interesting to know how this works. Saying that He is logically required to be an autonomous source of energy, or that He is a “necessary” autonomous source of energy in any possible world, is not explanatory wrt to how this process actually works. Are we in agreement?
The statement that "logically [God] must have this energy otherwise we cannot explain the existence of the universe" is certainly (and obviously) not an answer to the question of how God generates said energy. Instead, it would be answer to the question of how we can know as a brute fact that he must be able to. It is a logical deduction, not a procedural or mechanistic explanation. Again, what we're talking about here are what seem to be the logically necessary implications that can be drawn from the current existence of the universe we live in. I agree with you that it would be interesting to know how it works for God to autonomously generate vast amounts of energy, but I'm not sure we'd necessarily be able to exactly understand it. Still, I don't see any reason that the notion of such a being having the ability to generate energy would be logically incoherent, and you don't seem to have suggested that it would be. And so it seems that it is both logically necessary that he be able to do so and logically coherent that he be able to do so. In addition, it certainly seems interesting to note that the Bible claims repeatedly that God created the material universe from an outpouring of vast amounts of energy and that modern scientific investigation has found that to be precisely how matter can be generated.HeKS
July 7, 2016
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CLAVDIVS: What about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity? What about it?Mung
July 7, 2016
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Mung When you find a reality that allows a thing to both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same respect do let us know. What about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity?CLAVDIVS
July 7, 2016
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I will never again curse the ground because of man Surely God cursed more than just the ground.Mung
July 7, 2016
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Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. Did God really strike down every living creature?Mung
July 7, 2016
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HeKs@12
The only point I’m not sure I would insist on is that material creation would necessarily require God to keep it in existence. That may be true, but I’m not sure it follows as a matter of logical necessity and I’m not aware of any specific argument for that proposition. But the rest I would agree with.
Agreed! The idea of material creation requiring God to keep it in existence is biblical, but may not a derivative of the cosmological argument. For instance, Hebrews 1:3 says this: " He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Just as He spoke the world into existence, He upholds/sustains the universe by the word of his power. Perhaps this is a reference to the natural laws that exist. God is a God of order and sustains these laws so that order is maintained in creation. Here is an OT promise to Noah and his descendants after the flood: "And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. 22 WHILE THE EARTH REMAINS, SEEDTIME AND HARVEST, COLD AND HEAT, SUMMER AND WINTER, DAY AND NIGHT, SHALL NOT CEASE.” It's not a promise to eternally uphold the earth, but until the final judgment when the earth is destroyed and recreated, God promises to uphold it and keep things going and in order. Just pointing out that it is a biblical sound argument to make even if it is not a corollary of the cosmological argument.tjguy
July 7, 2016
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daveS: Absolutely. I suspect there is more debate about the LEM, however. A thing either exists or it does not exist. Even you seem to accept this as a self evident truth.
The second law of logic is the law of excluded middle, which states: Something either is or is not, or P v ~P which reads either P or non-P. It is called the law of excluded middle because it excludes the possibility of something in the middle of existence and nonexistence. A thing either exists or it does not; there is no tertian quid (third what).
What would a thing in the middle of existence and non-existence look like? Would it appear as if it exists? Would it appear as if it does not exist? Would it appear as if it both exists and does not exist? If you have an objection to the law of excluded middle we'd all like to hear it, or not hear it, or both. And the fundamental question remains, what principles of logic will you use to analyze arguments if you exclude the law of excluded middle?Mung
July 7, 2016
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#59 That makes three of us ... but in my case, I am quite certain Coyne just didn't want to deal with empirical observations.Upright BiPed
July 7, 2016
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16, @WJM: I’ve often remarked about how our interlocutors often seem abstract-impaired when it comes to various logical arguments. I’ve begun to wonder if it is some kind of mental or physical disorder comparable to psychopathy or color-blindness. They will say the most bizarre things as if what they are saying is responsive to the argument or as if it rebuts the argument. I think the root cause is much more mundane: many (all?) of the 'new' atheists make it very clear that they consider the philosophy of religion not worthy of serious attention because it takes theism seriously. If person P has already decided that topic X should not be taken seriously, it should come as no surprise that P ignores arguments about topic X or, if they don't outright ignore them, they fail to take such arguments seriously enough to accurately summarize the arguments (argument they have already determined, in advance, are wrong). Frankly, if I were a theistic philosopher or apologist, I would quote early and often the infamous essay by atheist philosopher Quentin Smith, "The Metaphilosophy of Naturalism." Smith believed and believes that naturalism is true, but he believes that even most atheist philosophers have an unjustified belief that naturalism is true. 15 years later and nothing has changed. In fact, you could tongue-in-cheek call Smith a prophet for predicting the kind of anti-intellectual responses posted Coyne and other new atheists.jlowder
July 7, 2016
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Mung,
When you find a reality that allows a thing to both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same respect do let us know. If the “reality” you currently occupy allows for such a thing also please let us know.
Absolutely. I suspect there is more debate about the LEM, however.daveS
July 7, 2016
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37: @sean samis Thanks for the kind words! Coyne has literally told me (by email) to not post comments on his site. That makes two of us.jlowder
July 7, 2016
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kf: DS, so soon as you set about thinking and discussing, you were using the laws. Whatever sandbox you are interested in must be compatible with that fact, or else you are in self referential incoherence. daveS: Perhaps so, but it doesn’t follow that these rules hold for all aspects of reality (and not just the sandbox). When you find a reality that allows a thing to both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same respect do let us know. If the "reality" you currently occupy allows for such a thing also please let us know. daveS: Anyway, it seems this line of discussion is not going to be very productive, so I will drop it. Oh ye of little faith.Mung
July 7, 2016
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kf: WJM, lack of proper education in first things; So true. Which is at least one reason a site like UD continues to have value. Someone brave enough to post an OP arguing that Barry is wrong about the law of identity would quickly be shown the door. Which is why people who post such things can now be found at "The Skeptical Zone." They can piss and moan that they no longer have posting privileges here at UD, but taht just supports the laws of logic. They can't both have the ability to post here and not have the ability to post here at the same time and in the same respect. Score one for Barry.Mung
July 7, 2016
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Mung,
So you’re bitching because corollary is a weaker claim than a claim of entailment? I’m certain we all have better things to do with our time.
No, I'm saying that the proposition that distinct identity implies the three laws of thought is different from the proposition that the three laws entail each other. I'm not saying anything about relative strength or weakness.
What tools would you use to analyze such an argument? I’m irrational, therefore … is not going to convince many people.
I would analyze it just like any other argument or proof. Check whether the conclusion follows from the premises. Anyway, it seems this line of discussion is not going to be very productive, so I will drop it. Edit: I will acknowledge that (if memory serves), KF has argued that the three laws of thought entail each other previously (in support of Foreman).daveS
July 7, 2016
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daveS: That is different from what KF posted So you're bitching because corollary is a weaker claim than a claim of entailment? I'm certain we all have better things to do with our time. daveS: I wouldn’t mind seeing an argument for Foreman’s claim however. What tools would you use to analyze such an argument? I'm irrational, therefore ... is not going to convince many people.Mung
July 7, 2016
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Mung,
I wouldn’t try to make too much of that if I were you. It just isn’t all that difficult to find support for kf’s position on that. For example:
Hm, so Foreman believes each of the three laws entails the other? That is different from what KF posted, surely; I wouldn't mind seeing an argument for Foreman's claim however.
Really, what you are saying is that you are more logical and rational than the rest of us. Why do you think so?
No, I'm absolutely not saying that. I could be wrong and you could be right.daveS
July 7, 2016
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daveS: Well, I find that I tend to be more skeptical about the powers of human reason (and logic) than many or most others here. I'd still love to hear how you go about critiquing an argument. Or is your "skepticism" all touchy-feely without any basis in reason? Really, what you are saying is that you are more logical and rational than the rest of us. Why do you think so?Mung
July 7, 2016
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daveS: Notice how he referred to LOI, LNC, and LEM as “direct corollaries” of distinct identity? I wouldn't try to make too much of that if I were you. It just isn't all that difficult to find support for kf's position on that. For example:
The observation has been made that these three laws all seem to be saying the same thing. In a sense that is true. They mutually entail each other to the point where if one is true, then the others follow.
Prelude to PhilosophyMung
July 7, 2016
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SA,
Well, I would ask you “limited in comparison to what”?
Well, I find that I tend to be more skeptical about the powers of human reason (and logic) than many or most others here.
A necessary being is the being that makes all other, contingent beings possible. What is possible comes from potential being. Since being cannot come from nothing, then all potential beings must have their origin in actual being. That actual being which is the source of all potentiality, all possiblity, is the necessary being.
Regarding this sort of reasoning, I don't have issues so much with the logic, but whether terms such as "potential being", the "source of all potentiality", "necessary being", and so on actually refer to anything real. I have no problem identifying coolant in an auto parts store, but I'm not so sure if I can tell whether there really is such a thing as "potential being".
I don’t know what arguments you use to support your own view, but certainly, one common atheistic argument is that “there is no observed scientific evidence that God exists”.
I wouldn't argue that. I'm not aware of what I would consider to be very strong scientific evidence for the existence of God, but I'm not a scientist.daveS
July 7, 2016
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Sean s,
S: Science remains the most valuable method for understanding the ultimate cause of the universe.
Your twisted view on science boils down to the embarrassing attempt to deny the causal efficacy of intelligence on which science existentially depends.
S: We don’t know to what extent objects or events outside our universe can be observed, or to what extent we can deduce some of their properties from their effects in our universe. It may well be that science will come up empty, but we should not give up on it without trying.
In the meantime, what is the best explanation?
S: Saying it’s a designer is useless. sean s.
Surely, only ‘useless’ wrt the naturalist’s psychotic abnegation of personhood and rationality. Come to think of it, perhaps the term ‘useless’ acquires its fullest meaning, if it were the case that your position, naturalism, is true — since, a person must exist to coherently claim that something is useful. Obviously, if fermions and bosons are all that exist, then everything is useless. What is it with you guys that you continually use terms which you cannot ground? Why is it difficult to understand that neither fermions nor bosons give a hoot about events outside our universe, science or usefulness?Origenes
July 7, 2016
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Mung,
It made me laugh that DaveS asked for a logical argument for the laws of logic. One wonders how he would then proceed to evaluate that logical argument.
This is what KF said in a previous post which I was referring to (my bold):
The bottomline here is that if you are unwilling to acknowledge the issue of distinct identity and its direct corollaries, LOI, LNC and LEM, there is no basis for reasoned discussion informed by fact and logic towards a sound or at least empirically reliable and coherent solution.
Notice how he referred to LOI, LNC, and LEM as "direct corollaries" of distinct identity?daveS
July 7, 2016
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kf: one does not appeal to authority for what is self evident; just to the understanding mind. Bingo. The "laws of logic" (LOI, LNC, LEM) are self evident. It made me laugh that DaveS asked for a logical argument for the laws of logic. One wonders how he would then proceed to evaluate that logical argument.Mung
July 7, 2016
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Proof for God (Pt II-A): Why Unconditioned Reality Must be Absolutely Simple http://idvolution.blogspot.com/2014/07/more-proofs-for-god.html (Pt I): Why There Must Be at Least One Unconditioned Reality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSwk3_eHvOAbuffalo
July 7, 2016
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Silver Asiatic:
To doubt all claims about deities is to doubt that a First Cause exists.
No. To doubt all claims about deities is to be unsure what a first cause actually is. That there must have been a first cause is clear; what it was is entirely unclear to me.
We observe fine-tuning in the universe...
No. That’s an inference. We observe that if certain physical constants and properties of the universe were different by even small amounts, our universe would not exist as it does or that we would not be here. What we don’t know is why that is; calling fine-tuning implies an explanation when in fact, we don’t actually know the answer. The “fine-tuning” is “apparent” but certainly not a given.
We see no evidence that matter itself can “Bang” itself into the ordered development of the universe as we see it.
Since no scientist claims this is what happens, you’ve defeated a strawman. I know this is hard to accept, but maybe we just don’t know yet how the universe came to be. Inferring a designer is simple and comforting, but raises many reasonable doubts. The fact is, we don’t know yet, and we may never know.
But to cite an unobserved material “thing” existing outside of space, matter and time is also illogical.
It is far more logical than citing an unobserved immaterial designer existing outside of space, matter, and time. After all, your “designer” is just a “thing” with additional hypothetical properties. If the thing is itself illogical, larding on additional hypothetical properties will not redeem it.
What if we received understandings of reality that came from outside the universe? Some have claimed to have exactly that kind of knowledge.
How would we know that? People claim all sorts of things; why would we believe these claims? Especially when different persons claim contradictory information is true?
Why would that imaginary concept that has no evidence to support it and which is philosophically problematic (it pushes the origin of a universe contingent beings out to other contingent beings) be preferable to the idea of God as creator?
The idea of a non-deistic first cause is no more imaginary than the idea of a deity, we know as much about either one as the other which is to say we know little-to-nothing about either one. The non-deity is preferable because it is simpler; it requires no considerations of motive, intent, goals, etc. A deity is the ultimately complex answer to any question. The point of Ockham’s Razor is to prefer the simplest answer as long as it remains unrefuted. As for being philosophically problematic, this is only an issue for philosophers. I find no significant philosophical problem here.
The First Cause cannot be a mere “thing” among things.
I know of no reason why not, PLUS the first cause could easily be a group of things, not just a singular thing.
But to observe entities that exist and act with purpose points to a source of purpose or plan ...
True enough by irrelevant because we haven’t observed that our first cause acted with purpose; that is an ungrounded assumption. It is based on observation from how things happen in our universe. But we are talking about things happening OUTSIDE our universe so those observations have limited value in this context.
I’m not sure why you’re looking for a “scientific thing” to solve this question of origins from a cosmological argument. It seems you already, rightly, got rid of science as a tool for understanding the ultimate cause of the universe – right? Why would you want a scientific thing to attempt to understand things which are not observable to science?
Science remains the most valuable method for understanding the ultimate cause of the universe. We don’t know to what extent objects or events outside our universe can be observed, or to what extent we can deduce some of their properties from their effects in our universe. It may well be that science will come up empty, but we should not give up on it without trying. Saying it’s a designer is useless. sean s.sean samis
July 7, 2016
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sean
all our expectations and understanding of physical reality comes from experiences in our universe.
Which leads you to conclude what about the rules of right reason?
It is an unnecessary and unjustified assumption to infer that all reality “outside” our universe operates just like our universe does.
Are you really trying to suggest that the law of non-contradiction and the principle of sufficient reason may be limited to our universe and that other universes may not be subject to them?StephenB
July 7, 2016
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sean samis
It’s obvious that when our Cosmic Inflation began (a.k.a. “the big bang”) something already existed. It was not part of our universe; our universe is part of it. Whatever it is or was, it was already there. What that something was remains unclear, but cosmic inflation is not regarded as happening ex nihilo.
A physical part cannot come from the whole of which it is a part. Can your kidney come from your body? Both the whole of cosmic reality and all of its parts must be brought into existence by an antecedent cause. Ex-nihilo creation is the only logical possibility.
unless we are careful to specify that whatever space, time, or material this “non-extensional something” might be composed of, it is not the space, time, or material which is part of our universe.
Prior to the big bang, the “non-extensional something” cannot be “composed” of physical parts. If it already had physical parts, then they could not later come into existence at the big bang. In other words, if space, time, and matter began to exist at the big bang, then they could not also exist before they existed as a part of a non-extensional something. Indeed, a non-extensional, immaterial being, by definition, cannot be composed of material parts that are extended in space. That should be obvious.
This may be true, but a First Cause that is truly spaceless, timeless, and immaterial is not a given.
A first cause is logically required as the beginning of any causal chain.
Much less is it given that this First Cause have attributes of intelligence (mind, intention, goals, wants, relationships, affection, etc.).
On the contrary, the first cause must be personal for the simple reason that the universe is contingent and need not have existed. Only a personal being can choose to create or not create a contingent universe out of nothing. A material thing does not have the power to make such a choice. Only an intelligent agent can do that.
Very few things can be held with 100% certainty, two of those few things are that creationism is certainly not a sure thing, and it is certainly not a scientific thing.
If you walked into your kitchen and noticed for the first time that a red ball was sitting on the dining-room table, you would conclude what? [a] — Someone put it there. [b] — It just popped into existence. I can assure you that your readers (insofar as they are rational) will say [a] and they will be certain of their answer. What is your answer and how certain are you of it?StephenB
July 7, 2016
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I don’t know which arguments for atheistic materialism you’re referring to, but you might be right there also.
It's good to hear that, as well as other areas where we agree. I don't know what arguments you use to support your own view, but certainly, one common atheistic argument is that "there is no observed scientific evidence that God exists". That is obviously foolish, for reasons we discussed previously.Silver Asiatic
July 7, 2016
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HeKS. Thank you for an excellent and well-thought out presentation.StephenB
July 7, 2016
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sean samis
And last, I am not an atheist; I am a doubter: I doubt all claims about deities, for and against. I am not a “hyperskeptic”; I do not advocate doubt or skepticism; but I do personally doubt all claims about deities.
I don't find that reasonable. To doubt all claims about deities is to doubt that a First Cause exists. But why is an infinite regress of causes any more certain than a First Cause? There are problems with an infinite regress of material causes, namely that they cannot be traversed in time. So, if you're saying that you doubt all cosmological propositions, then that needs more precision. We arrive at a conclusion on these matters because certain arguments lead to more or less reasonable solutions.
It’s obvious that when our Cosmic Inflation began (a.k.a. “the big bang”) something already existed.
This is obvious because something cannot come from nothing. When the Cosmic Inflation began, it had to have a cause - so something already existed before it. We observe fine-tuning in the universe and this must have had a cause also. An intelligent designer existing before the Cosmic Inflation, having created the laws, forces and material properties that developed into the universe as we observe it is a very reasonable proposition in this case. What is the alternative? We see no evidence that matter itself can "Bang" itself into the ordered development of the universe as we see it.
It was not part of our universe; our universe is part of it. Whatever it is or was, it was already there. What that something was remains unclear, but cosmic inflation is not regarded as happening ex nihilo.
To regard it as coming ex nihilo would be illogical and unscientific, yes. But to cite an unobserved material "thing" existing outside of space, matter and time is also illogical.
There will be a temptation to ask “well, what created this something that created us?” One should avoid that temptation; all our expectations and understanding of physical reality comes from experiences in our universe.
How do you know that? What if we received understandings of reality that came from outside the universe? Some have claimed to have exactly that kind of knowledge.
It is an unnecessary and unjustified assumption to infer that all reality “outside” our universe operates just like our universe does.
Agreed. Thus this question transcends science and refutes materialism.
In other words, this “non-extensional something” can (and probably does) occupy space, experience time, and is composed of some material, but it is not of the space, time, or material of our universe.
You mention 'probably' but no one can assign any probability to a non-material entity (that's Dawkins' error when he claims that the probability is 99% that God does not exist). You can't measure the probability without data from material events. So, to propose a different kind of space and matter is fine, but it's purely imaginary. Why would that imaginary concept, that has no evidence to support it and which is philosophically problematic (it pushes the origin of a universe contingent beings out to other contingent beings) be preferable to the idea of God as creator?
This may be true, but a First Cause that is truly spaceless, timeless, and immaterial is not a given.
It's not a given but it's a logical conclusion that follows from the premises.
Much less is it given that this First Cause have attributes of intelligence (mind, intention, goals, wants, relationships, affection, etc.). Absent these this First Cause would not be any deity but a mere “thing” or “things”.
I don't follow this. The First Cause cannot be a mere "thing" among things. And the reason for that has nothing to do with the properties of intelligence or mind. But to observe entities that exist and act with purpose points to a source of purpose or plan - thus a Designer possessing the capablities of mind, intelligence and designing powers.
Very few things can be held with 100% certainty, two of those few things are that creationism is certainly not a sure thing, and it is certainly not a scientific thing.
I'm not sure why you're looking for a "scientific thing" to solve this question of origins from a cosmological argument. It seems you already, rightly, got rid of science as a tool for understanding the ultimate cause of the universe - right? Why would you want a scientific thing to attempt to understand things which are not observable to science?Silver Asiatic
July 7, 2016
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DS
And while logic of one form or another is required for rational thought, it’s my belief that rational thought is itself quite limited—I gather we’re on the same page there?
Well, I would ask you "limited in comparison to what"? As stated, logic is the foundation of all rationality. So, within the realm of human reason, I wouldn't say that logic is quite limited. It has a massive scope and is put to use by billions of humans in all rational endeavors. It is most especially important in coming to understand the existence of God, the nature of God and the meaning of human life. So, logic is the pathway that brings us to the greatest and most important of all things. The tool itself does not need to be perfect (only God, by definition, is perfect). It just needs to be reliable enough for us to reach rational conclusions and to be able to weigh the best, most reasonable answers to questions. A necessary being is the being that makes all other, contingent beings possible. What is possible comes from potential being. Since being cannot come from nothing, then all potential beings must have their origin in actual being. That actual being which is the source of all potentiality, all possiblity, is the necessary being.Silver Asiatic
July 7, 2016
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