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RDF/AIG as a case of the incoherence and rhetorical agenda of evolutionary materialist thought and/or its fellow- traveller ideologies

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For the past several weeks, there has been an exchange that developed in the eduction vs persuasion thread (put up May 9th by AndyJones), on first principles of right reason and related matters.  Commenter RDF . . .   has championed some popular talking points in today’s intellectual culture.

We can therefore pick up from a citation and comment by Vivid, at 619 in the thread (June 12th), for record and possible further discussion.

Accordingly, I clip comment 742 from the thread (overnight) and headline it:

_____________

>>. . . let us remind ourselves of the context for the just above exchanges, by going back to Vivid at 619:

[RDF/AIG:] And once again I must remind you that you are mistaken. We cannot be absolutely certain of anything, and you will see that I have never said that we could be absolutely certain of anything. I don’t think this is a very difficult point, but you keep misquoting me.

[Vivid, replying:} I apologize I did not intend to misquote you I now understand your position better. You are not absolutely certain that there is no such thing as absolute certainty but you want Stephen[B] to concede to that which you are not absolutely certain about. Got it.

Notice, this is what RDF has to defend, cited from his own mouth:

[RDF:] We cannot be absolutely certain of anything . . .

This absolute declaration of certainty that we cannot be certain of anything, aptly exposes the underlying incoherence of what RDF has been arguing.

"Turtles, all the way down . . . " vs a root cause
“Turtles, all the way down . . . ” vs a root cause

He has spent much time trying to ignore a sound worldviews foundation approach, and has sought to undermine first principles of right reason in order to advance an agenda that from its roots on up, is incoherent.

So, let it be understood that when reason was in the balance, he was found wanting, decisively wanting. Again and again.

In particular, observe his willful unresponsiveness to and “passive” resistance by that unresponsiveness, to the basic point that by direct case, Royce’s Error exists, we can show that there are truths that are generally recognised, are accessible to our experiences, are factually grounded, and can be shown to be undeniably true and self evident, constituting certain knowledge of the world of things in themselves accessible to humans.

Thus, his whole project of want of grounding for reasoning and building worldviews collapses from the foundations.

In particular, observe as well that he has for hundreds of comments, waged an ideological talking point war against cause and effect, trying to poison the atmosphere to disguise the want of a good basis for rejecting it.

For instance, observe how he has never seriously engaged the point that once a thing A exists, following Schopenhauer, we may freely ask, why and expect to find a reasonable, intelligible answer. (This is in part a major basis for science, and also for philosophy.)

This principle, sufficient reason, is patently reasonable and self-evident: that if A is, there is a good explanatory reason for it.

First, that A’s attributes, unlike those of a square circle, are coherent. So, from this point on, the law of non-contradiction is inextricably entangled int he possibility of being. Consequently we see the antithesis: possibility vs impossibility of being.

Next, by virtue of possible worlds analysis, we can distinguish another antithesis: contingent vs non-contingent (i.e. NECESSARY) beings.

A unicorn, a possible being (HT: Baggins Book Blogger, Blogspot)
A unicorn, a possible being (HT: Baggins Book Blogger, Blogspot)

That is, we can have possible worlds in which certain things — contingent beings, C — could exist and others in which C does not exist. For instance, a horned horse is obviously a possible being but happens not to exist as of yet in the actual world we inhabit. But it is conceivable that within a century, through genetic engineering, one may well exist. (I am not so sure that they will be able to make a pink one, but a white one is very conceivable.)

We are of course just such members of class C.

(And this wider class C further opens the way to significant choice by humans, by which we can imagine possible futures, and by rational evaluation of the consequences of our ideas, models and plans, decide which to implement, e.g. by choosing a design of the building to replace the WTC buildings in NYC knocked down by Bin Laden and co on Sept 11, 2001 — a date chosen by him on the probable grounds that it was the 318th anniversary less one day, from the great cavalry attack led by Jan III Sobieski of Poland and Lithuania, which broke the final Turkish siege of Vienna under the Caliph at that time in 1683. That is, by choosing the day, UBL was making a message to his fellow radicalised Muslims that he was taking over from the previous high-water mark of IslamIST expansionism. And that he was doing so in the general area of Khorasan would also be of significance to such Muslims, who would immediately recognise the significance and relevance of black flag armies from that general area. I give these examples, to underscore the significance of contingency and intelligent, willed choice in humans, something that RDF/AIG also wishes to undermine. He does not see the fatal self-referential incoherence that stems from that, and doubtless would dismiss the significance of incoherence as well. The circle of ideological irrationality driven by a priori evolutionary materialism and its fellow traveller ideas and agendas, closes.)

But C has its antithesis in a world partition, class NOT-C; let us call it N.

Necessary beings, such as the number two, 2 or the true proposition 2 + 3 = 5, etc.

Fire_tetrahedron
The fire tetrahedron, showing the cluster of enabling factors that are each necessary and jointly sufficient for a fire to begin (Wiki)

Members of C are marked by dependence on ON/OFF enabling factors, e.g. as we have frequently discussed, how a match flame depends on each of: heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction. Such enabling factors are necessary causal factors, all of which must be present for a member of class C to be actualised. A sufficient condition for such a member will have at least all of the factors like this, met.

We naturally and reasonably say that such a member of C is CAUSED when its conditions to exist are met by a sufficient cluster of factors, and that E is an effect; the cluster of factors being causes. So, even if we do not know the full set of causal factors for C, we can be confident that a contingent being, that has a beginning and may end or could conceivably not have been at all, is caused.

However, not all things are like that. Some things have no such dependence on causal factors, and are possible beings. These beings will be actual in all possible worlds, i.e. they are necessary beings.

One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time
One and the same object
cannot be circular and
square in the same
sense and place at the same time

A serious candidate necessary being will be either impossible (blocked by having incoherent proposed attributes such as a square circle), or it will be possible and actual. As noted, S5, in modal logic, captures part of why. {Cf. here.} In effect we can see that such a being just is, inevitably, and its absence would be impossible.

For example the number 2 just is. Even in an empty world, one can see that we have the empty set { } –> 0. Thence, we may form a set which collects the empty set: {0} –> 1. Then, in the next step, we simply collect both: {0, 1} –> 2. For modern set theory, we simply continue the process to get 3, 4, 5 . . . , but this is enough for our purposes. Doing this abstract analytical exercise does not create 2, it simply recognises how inevitable it is. It is impossible for 2 not to exist. Similarly, the true proposition 2 + 3 = 5 is like that, and much more besides.

We thus see that necessary beings exist and are knowable, even familiar in some cases.

We see further that such beings are without beginning, or end. They are not caused, they hold being by necessity, which its their sufficient reason for existing. They have no dependence on external enabling causal factors.

A flying spaghetti monster knitted doll, showing how this is used to mockt eh idea of God as necessary being (note the words on the chalk board)
A flying spaghetti monster knitted doll, showing how this is used to mock the idea of God as necessary being (note the words on the chalk board)

A serious candidate to be a necessary being will be independent of enabling factors, likewise (flying spaghetti monsters need not apply) and will not be composed of material parts. The abstract, thought-nature of cases like 2, 2 + 3 = 5 etc shows that such beings point to mind, and one way of accounting for such beings is that they are eternally contemplated by God. Where also God is regarded as an eternal, necessary, spiritual being who is minded and the root of all being in our world, the ultimate enabling factor for reality.

BTW, this means that those who would dismiss God’s existence do not merely need to establish that in their view God is improbable, but that God is impossible, as God is a serious candidate to be a necessary being.

That is, since RDF is so hot to undermine the intellectual credibility of the existence of God, it is worth pausing to highlight a few points on this matter, connected to the logic of necessary beings and other relevant points. For, even before we run into other things that point like compass needles to God: the evident design of a fine tuned cosmos set up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that makes an extra cosmic, intelligent agent with power to create a cosmos the explanation to beat, the significance of our being minded and characterised by reason, as well as the existence of a world of life in that context, the fact that we inescapably find ourselves under moral government by implanted law, and of course the direct encounter with God that millions report as having positively transformed their lives, and more.

Nope, unlike the pretence of too many skeptics would lead us to naively believe, the acceptance of God’s reality is a very reasonable position to hold. (Scroll back up and observe the studious silence of RDF et al on such matters.)

So, never mind the ink-clouds of distractive or dismissive or confusing talking-points, we are back to the worldview level significance of first principles of right reason and pivotal first, self-evident truths.

{Let us add, an illustrative diagram, on how naturally these principles arise from a world-partition, e.g. by having a bright red ball on a table:}

Laws_of_logic

{And,we may clip Wikipedia’s article on laws of thought:

The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature . . .   whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle).

What’s more . . .  thinking entails the manipulation and amalgamation of simpler concepts in order to form more complex ones, and therefore, we must have a means of distinguishing these different concepts. It follows then that the first principle of language (law of identity) is also rightfully called the first principle of thought, and by extension, the first principle reason (rational thought) . . .

Another illustration shows how world view roots arise:}

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

Prediction (do, prove me wrong RDF et al): this too will be studiously ignored in haste to push along with the talking point agenda. The price tag for such apparently habitual tactics, is willful neglect of duties of care to be reasonable, to seek and face truth, and to be fair in discussion.

That is, it is “without excuse.”

(And yes, the allusion to Rom 1:19 – 25 and vv. 28 – 32 is quite deliberate.)  >>

____________

A squid ink cloud escape tactic
A squid ink cloud escape tactic (Google)

So, we face the issue of worldview foundations, in light of first principles of right reason.

(One that — per fair comment, for weeks now, RDF/AIG has studiously ducked, behind a cloud of talking points.)

How will we respond?

On what basis of reasoning?

With what level of certainty?

Why? END

Comments
F/N: I should note the consequences of that first self-evident, undeniable truth, that error exists. Let me clip the discussion that for a month RDF has managed not to read and has tried to dismiss: ____________ >> consider Josiah Royce's subtle but simple claim: error exists. To try to deny it only ends up giving an instance of its truth; it is undeniably true. Let's zoom in a bit (using mostly glorified common sense "deduction" and a light dusting of symbols), as this will help us understand the roots of reasoning and reasonableness. As we have stressed, this is back to roots, back to sources, back to foundations. So, in steps of thought: 1: Let us take up, Royce’s Error exists, and symbolise it: E. (Where the denial would be NOT-E, ~E. Error does not exist, in plain English.) 2: Attempt a conjunction: { E AND ~E } 3: We have here mutually exclusive, opposed and exhaustive claims that address the real world joined together in a way that tries to say both are so. 4: Common sense, based on wide experience and our sense of how things are and can or cannot be -- to be further analysed below, yielding three key first principles of right reason -- tells us that, instead: (a) this conjunction { E AND ~E } must be false (so that the CONJUNCTION is a definite case of an error), and that (b) its falsity being relevant to one of the claims, (c) we may readily identify that the false one is ~E. Which means: _________________________________ (d) E is true and is undeniably true. (On pain of a breach of common sense.) 5: So, E is true, is known to be true once we understand it and is undeniably true on pain of patent -- obvious, hard to deny -- self contradiction. 6: It is therefore self evident. 7: It is warranted as reliably true, indeed to demonstrative certainty. 8: Where, E refers to the real world of things as such. 9: It is a case of absolute, objective, certainly known truth; a case of certain knowledge. "Justified, true belief," nothing less. 10: It is also a matter of widely observed fact -- starting with our first school exercises with sums and visions of red X's -- confirming the accuracy of a particular consensus of experience. 11: So, here we have a certainly known case of truth existing as that which accurately refers to reality. 12: Also, a case of knowledge existing as warranted, credibly true beliefs, in this case to certainty. 13: Our ability to access truth and knowledge about the real, extra-mental world by experience, reasoning and observation is confirmed in at least one pivotal case. 14: Contemporary worldviews — their name is Legion — that would deny, deride or dismiss such [including the point that there are such things as self evident truths that relate to the real world], are thence shown to be factually inadequate and incoherent. They are unable to explain reality. 15: Such worldviews are, as a bloc, falsified by this one key point. They are unreasonable. 16: Of course the truth in question is particularly humbling and a warning on the limits of knowledge and the gap between belief and truth or even ability to formulate a logical assertion and truth. 17: So, we need to be humble, and — contrary to assertions about how insisting on objectivity manifests "arrogance" and potentially oppressive "intolerance" – the principles of right reason (implicit in the above, to be drawn out below) allow us to humbly, honestly test our views so that we can identify when we have gone off the rails and to in at least some cases confirm when our confidence is well grounded. So -- while we can be mistaken about it -- truth exists and we can in some cases confidently know it on pain of absurdity if we try to deny it. It is warranted and credibly true that error exists. Truth therefore exists, and knowledge -- i.e. the set of warranted, credibly true [and reliable] claims -- also exists. (As noted already, but it bears repeating as it is hard for some to accept: this cuts a wide swath across many commonly encountered worldview ideas of our time; such as, the idea that there is no truth beyond what seems true to you or me, or that we cannot know the truth on important matters beyond conflicting opinions.) >> ___________ In short, the Royce proposition, Error exists, is pivotal, and decisive. KF PS: I forgot earlier to comment on the claim that RDF is declaratively not an evolutionary materialist. It will be evident that I have often spoken of evolutionary materialists and their fellow travellers. In response to the dominance of this system that flies the flag of science (improperly), many other systems that are not strictly materialistic have accommodated themselves to it, and end up int eh same errors. Many modernist theologies are a classic case in point. So is much of what would be called Ultra- or post- modernism. Neopaganism (a manifestation of post modernism), too.kairosfocus
June 19, 2013
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RDF: I note:
every astute onlooker who has weighed in on this thread and the last one has pretty much agreed with me
This is not accurate to the discussion as by no means do all onlookers who have weighed in agree with you. In addition, the matter is not one to be settled by opinion. (That you think it can be settled by appeal to the authority of a reference group who agree says a lot.) Indeed, your original assertion -- recall: "We cannot be absolutely certain of anything" -- doubly fails, as: 1 --> first, it is an absolute claim that denies the possibility of such being correct and is thus self referentially incoherent and so reduces to absurdity, 2 --> It also fails the direct test of a case such as "Error exists," where we can see this is not only generally conceded as true but is undeniably so. What is lending you support is the conflation between (a) that for many things, we do have limits in our ability to warrant, and (b) the cases of actually self evident truths that are undeniably so. Error exists -- the case that for a month you have ducked and dodged, is a good example of the latter. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2013
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Claudius: Pardon, yesterday was busy so there were things that just had to wait. And, I just lost a comment I was constructing. So, here goes -- and I am composing in WordGraph this time. First, remember, the above OP was a promoted thread comment. I need to document the problem that RDF has, that I was responding to (and note to you that he has a pattern of saying one thing,then if it is strongly objected to, he will say something else on the other hand, leaving an ambiguity that allows the original point to still work its way through). So, let me document several points of concern from the previous thread, some of them just above where I commented:
EXHB I: RDF, 737, cited KF,740: >> (2) is a matter of “We have been trying to figure out how to show that God exists (or libertarianism is true, or…) for thousands of years, and we still can’t”. >> EXHB II: RDF, 675, cited KF,719 : >> I just argue that religious beliefs aren’t knowledge. This doesn’t mean they are false or wrong; it just means we can’t ever reach any sort of consensus on them because there is no way of telling who might be right. >> EXHB III: RDF, 636, cited KF, 642: >> My main impetus here has been to show you [SB] that your idea that you could take self-evident axioms and the Rules of Reason and proceed to prove things like a “First Cause” started the universe. My demonstration(s) that you cannot derive a Law of Causality from the self-evident Law of Non-contradiction is one powerful way to show you that it is impossible to do prove your religious beliefs with logic, and your that certainty in these matters is grossly misplaced. >>
It should be clear from the above that RDF has in fact argued in ways that make it patent that a major motive for and focus of his commentary is to undermine the intellectual credibility of accepting the reality of God as a well grounded, intellectually credible belief. Just as, the above should suffice to show that he also has both tried to assert that we CANNOT know anything with undiluted certainty, and has then on objection tried to change the meaning of his words into something else. The effect of which is the first stands and if you object the naive onlooker will think you are wrong. Now, too, the above cluster needs to be corrected, so that it will not mislead the naive onlooker, along the lines of the OP above. 1 --> A major reason why people are confident that hey know that God is real (not merely believe or hold an opinion) is that millions over the ages and today have met God in life transforming power, and have come to know him as they know any other person. For such, e.g. prayer is really conversation with God, not saying words into the air to the caricatured imaginary invisible "friend" in the sky of too many sophomoric skeptics. 2 --> If so widespread an experience were delusional, first it would have disintegrative effects, which is the opposite to the life transformation that we do see. Similarly, if it were, it would bring the general credibility of the mind as a means of reliable knowledge under serious question, as in what else would be delusional. 3 --> Moreover, I am one of the millions. Quite literally, apart from a joint encounter with the power of God after a prayer of surrender at the point of desperation on my Mom's part, leading to a miracle of guidance to the doctor who saved my life, I simply would not be here to comment. After a life experience like that, I don't care who may think differently and may insist that as there is no consensus there can be no knowledge, I know the reality of God. We are here, by the millions, and we are not going away despite the unworthy, too common attempts to poison the atmosphere and to pretend and accuse us that we are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. 4 --> And I know the resistance to and denial of even patent reality by the unwilling, somehow threatened mind too: a mind convinced against its will is of the same opinion still. (Just look at the resistance to direct demonstration of self-evident, absolutely knowable truth, above and in the previous thread. Start with: Error exists, and 2 + 3 = 5 . . . more directly, || + ||| --> |||||. After that, can you kindly explain -- on the plain meaning of "cannot": RDF, >> We cannot be absolutely certain of anything . . . >>) 5 --> There is also a major strawman distortion at work. I will start with the contrast, ropes vs chains. A chain notoriously is only as string as its weakest link and the connexion between links. That is a deductive argument. A rope is different: it works by cumulative effect of interwoven strands, so that the length and the strength is in aggregate far more than that of the individual strand. That is as strand grips strand in long threads we gain length, and as strands are multiplied in a balanced pattern of twists, counter-twists and possibly braiding, we have a long, string rope. 6 --> Just so, from coherent and cumulative strands of reasoning, we can have a worldview case that is cumulatively very strong, built up from strands that individually do not and cannot do the whole job. This is yet another illustration that warrant in light of cumulative inference to best explanation is not equal to demonstrative, deductive proof. It is also far more stable, as it does not depend critically on any one link. You have to cut a material fraction of a rope and/or throw its strands into unravelling and loss of coherence for it to break. 7 --> Now, back to the first principles of right reason, via that bright red cricket ball sitting next to a white one in the shop show case over in Davy Hill, some miles from where I am now typing this. Let us mentally tag it A, as a distinct, recognisable thing in the world, and let us partition the world: W = { A | NOT-A }. As the OP outlines and illustrates, immediately the identity cluster of principles follows: LOI, LNC, LEM. They are self evident and certain, once any distinct thing A exists. Which is undeniable. 8 --> Similarly, we follow Schopenhauer, and ask Why A; expecting a reasonable and adequate answer. 9 --> This brings to bear a second cluster of principles, through the principle of sufficient reason (PSR), which is self-evidently in order as a step of reasoning. This leads to possible vs impossible beings, first of all: possible beings are such that their attributes are consistent with one another, unlike the case of a square circle. This immediately and inextricably embeds the identity cluster in the possibility of being. As I have noted, such principles are interwoven in all of reasoning, they are absolutely foundational. 10 --> So, while I do not solely derive contingency vs non contingency of being (the next pair of alternatives) from LNC alone, it is inextricably entangled in that next point. RDF's attempt to sever causality etc from LNC etc, fails, fails at the point of asking, what is responsible for the possibility of a being A. 11 --> Now, our cricket ball exists, so is obviously possible. And yet it is possible that instead of being red, it could have been white, or the factory could have made a baseball instead, which is of quite similar construction. It is a contingent being, dependent on a suffiicent cluster of factors, including all of its enabling, on-off factors that make its possibility move to actuality. We have frequently discussed the lighting of a match and the dependency on heat, fuel, oxidiser, and a heat generating rapid, oxidising chain reaction. 12 --> But there are non-contingent beings, such as the number 2, that exists even in an empty possible world. Just move from the empty set forward as follows: { } --> 0, then the set that collects that set { 0 } --> 1, collect these two { 0, 1 } --> 2. It is impossible for there to be a possible world in which 2 is not present, it is a necessary being. The same holds for the proposition, 2 + 3 = 5. The number 2 is a necessary being, one that exists such that it is possible and has no dependence on external enabling factors, so that it has no beginning, no possibility of ending [we cannot turn off enabling factors], it is eternal. 13 --> So as a direct corollary of the PSR in the context of the identity cluster, we can see possibility/ impossibility of being, and contingency/ non-contingency of possible beings. Contingent beings, of course are not self-explaining, and so point to ultimately necessary ones as their roots. 14 --> CAUSE relates to possible, and contingent beings. Such are actualised when a sufficient cluster of factors are present, including at least their ON/OFF enabling ones. (It is a little sad that I have to keep hammering away at what should be a 101 well known to all, but the state of our intellectual culture is such that this is needed.) The factors that trigger or influence the beginning and/or sustain such a being are termed causes, and it is termed their effect. So, the explanation of our cricket ball is a factory, in say Pakistan, or India or Australia or England. (Those are the main sources. Top quality balls take a lot of skilled hand work and characteristics seem to be sensitive even to the dyeing process used on the leather, white balls claimed to be of the same manufacturing process reportedly play differently, and different red ones from different manufacturers have noticeably different characteristics. Swing and seam bowling make advantageous use of subtle differences, and at peak levels seem to be just one step short of black magic. To the repeated sorrow of today's Windies teams.) 15 --> With these under our belt, we can then examine the context of our world. Which is patently a contingent being, e.g. atomic matter is known per atomic and nuclear physics to be contingent and the familiar objects around us and in the sky are composed of such. In addition, we have the red shift cosmological expansion evidence and the cosmic microwave background that point to a finitely remote beginning. Commonly estimated at 13.7 BYA. 16 --> The best explanation for such a cosmos level contingency is a necessary being, even through a speculated multiverse. Such a necessary being is the root of all existence. Of what particular character is not as yet explicated. 17 --> Multiply such by the evidence of cosmological fine tuning that sets up a world in which C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based, digital code and executing molecular nanomachine using life is possible and actual. (Cf. here for a 101.) 18 --> Again, on inference to best explanation, we are looking at a necessary being with power, intent and skill to design and build a cosmos. 19 --> Where also the global consensus that we are under moral governance and accountability ["you unfair me . . ., " "you are a hypocrite . . ." etc.] also strongly points to the character of that designer. This already leads us to the seriously and reasonably argued point that the best explanation for our observed and experienced world, is an intelligent designer who is a necessary (thus, eternal) being of awesome power, knowledge and skill, who is also a moral governor. God, in one word. (Obviously, this is a worldview level case.) 20 --> Where also a little bit of the logic of possible and non-contingent beings applies to such: a serious necessary being candidate (YouTube skeptics: FYI, flying spaghetti monsters, pink unicorns and red dragons need not apply . . . ) will either be impossible or actual. Thus, once one recognises that the essential nature of God is as long described -- the greatest possible being (including eternality), the issue is not so much whether one doubts the reality of God, but whether one considers that God is impossible and why. (Where also, things like 2, and propositions like 2 + 3 = 5 -- inherently mental abstractions -- are often considered as eternally contemplated by the Divine mind.) 21 --> Now, it is to be noted that the above is not a chain of deductions but explicitly an inference to best explanation on cumulative evidence and argument. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2013
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as to "But no matter what you assume, you cannot remove all doubt that our mental faculties are reliable." Are you absolutely sure about that? If so then you defeat your argument, and if not you defeat your argument again. :) Dog, tail, chase, circle!bornagain77
June 19, 2013
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RDF: Sorry, cannot is an absolute term, period. Basic English. You don't get to play games with language like that. If you mean to say that your assertion previously was not what you meant to say, then say that; kindly. Meanwhile, I need to reconstruct a comment to Claudius, so back to that. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2013
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Hi KF,
RDF,Please cf the meaning of CANNOT. That is as absolute as it gets.
No, to get as absolute as it gets, one would say "absolutely cannot" of course. Just stop for one second and see how ridiculous is your attempt to disprove my simple point. What I am saying isn't contradictory or illogical or paradoxical in the least, nor is it controversial among most epistemologists I've read (including Christian ones). I am simply saying that there is no way to prove anything beyond all possible doubt. Just stop the nonsense about "self-referential incoherence" and realize that it is a perfectly consistent position to say that nothing is beyond all possible doubt. (And no, it won't help you to assert that my very claim is not beyond all possible doubt - I freely concede that of course it is). Interestingly, I notice ba77 has mentioned Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism here. This argument talks about the likelihood of our mental faculties being reliable given different assumptions. But no matter what you assume, you cannot remove all doubt that our mental faculties are reliable. And if our mental faculties were indeed not reliable, then we would not necessarily be capable of knowing that fact! More important than the point about epistemic limits, however, is another point I made in the previous thread: Existential questions regarding mind/body ontology, free will, and origins have no certain answers at all.
That bluster not backed up by substance is quite revealing to the astute onlooker.
So far every astute onlooker who has weighed in on this thread and the last one has pretty much agreed with me :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 18, 2013
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I liked how Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism (EAAN) fits into all this:
Alvin Plantinga - Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r34AIo-xBh8
In which Plantinga shows that naturalism is self defeating as to establishing certainty about anything:
Scientific Peer Review is in Trouble: From Medical Science to Darwinism - Mike Keas - October 10, 2012 Excerpt: Survival is all that matters on evolutionary naturalism. Our evolving brains are more likely to give us useful fictions that promote survival rather than the truth about reality. Thus evolutionary naturalism undermines all rationality (including confidence in science itself). Renown philosopher Alvin Plantinga has argued against naturalism in this way (summary of that argument is linked on the site:). Or, if your short on time and patience to grasp Plantinga's nuanced argument, see if you can digest this thought from evolutionary cognitive psychologist Steve Pinker, who baldly states: "Our brains are shaped for fitness, not for truth; sometimes the truth is adaptive, sometimes it is not." Steven Pinker, evolutionary cognitive psychologist, How the Mind Works (W.W. Norton, 1997), p. 305. http://blogs.christianpost.com/science-and-faith/scientific-peer-review-is-in-trouble-from-medical-science-to-darwinism-12421/
Throw in Boltzmann's Brain on top of Plantinga's EAAN, which I've already referenced elsewhere today, where being a brain in a vat is more likely than the fact you really exist,,
Michael Behe has a profound answer to the infinite multiverse argument in “Edge of Evolution”. If there are infinite universes, then we couldn’t trust our senses, because it would be just as likely that our universe might only consist of a human brain that pops into existence which has the neurons configured just right to only give the appearance of past memories. It would also be just as likely that we are floating brains in a lab, with some scientist feeding us fake experiences. Those scenarios would be just as likely as the one we appear to be in now (one universe with all of our experiences being “real”). Bottom line is, if there really are an infinite number of universes out there, then we can’t trust anything we perceive to be true, which means there is no point in seeking any truth whatsoever.
,,,Then perhaps, after seeing those two devastating arguments against naturalism, some of us can start to finally get the notion that naturalism may have some pretty severe discrepancies against it.,,, But to offer more than the usual presuppositional apologetics against naturalism:
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 debate available on the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://theresurgence.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist
,, instead of pointing to presuppositional apologetics and leaving it there, I would like to, as I ponted out in another thread this morning,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/order-is-not-the-same-thing-as-complexity-a-response-to-harry-mccall/#comment-458050 ,,, focus in on the most real thing, the most 'certain' thing, we can know about ourselves. i.e. It is interesting to note that there is a very strong tradition in philosophy that holds that the most concrete thing that you can know about reality is the fact that you are indeed conscious, i.e. that you have a mind. But to go one step further than I did in the other thread this morning in talking about the surety of our consciousness above all else as to establishing certainty about reality, I would also like to point out this interesting study, that was conducted by atheists, on Near Death Experiences that recently came out. They found:
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/
Also of note:
A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." - Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html
It is interesting to note in the atheists' study in which they found evidence directly contradicting what they had expected to find (i.e. that NDEs are illusory), that they themselves were/are so wedded to the materialistic/naturalistic view of reality, the view of “I’ am my body”, that it seems sadly impossible for them to even conceive of the fact that they may be wrong in their naturalistic presuppositions, and to even admit to the possibility of the reality/truth of the soul, i.e. to the “I’ am a soul distinct from my body” view of reality. i.e. They denied the conclusion of their own experiments because of their a-priori beliefs! Unscientific to put it mildly! Whereas from a Theistic perspective, or even a common sense perspective, one would readily expect that the closer one's mind was to the source of all reality then one's mind would 'naturally' feel as if their experiences were 'more real' than if one were more separated from the source of all reality. i.e. it's not rocket science! Supplemental notes:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html The Easter Question - Eben Alexander, M.D. - March 2013 Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,, Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that -- a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn't simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one. But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it's-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,, We are, really and truly, made in God's image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation -- one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone. But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It's not the world we actually live in.,,, ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer... and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eben-alexander-md/the-easter-question_b_2979741.html
Verse and Music:
Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.” What Are You Waiting For - Shawn McDonald http://myktis.com/songs/what-are-you-waiting-for-2/
bornagain77
June 18, 2013
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kairosfocus @ 21 1. You claimed RDFish was "hot to undermine the intellectual credibility of the existence of God”. This was demonstrated to be a false claim. You have not acknowledged this or corrected yourself.
{--> Kindly cf 38 below. KF}
2. You next claimed "it is warrant [RDFish] set out to undermine". This is a different and also false claim: RDFish objected to certainty, not warrant. Again you have not acknowledged this or corrected yourself.
{--> It is the case that without certainty on some few first principles of right reason, warrant evaporates even as reason evaporates. Without distinct identity, non-confusion of A with NOT-A and so forth, there is nothing but confusion. KF.}
3. You've moved on to the claim RDFish "committed a self referential incoherence" - yet again a different claim; at least this is arguable.
{ --> Nope, this is patent, cf. OP and the particular assertion grounds the rest of my concerns. KF}
My point is that moving from one false claim to another without acknowledgement on demonstrated correction comes across as poisoning the well and does not make for productive discourse. Do you want productive discourse?
{ --> C, on evidence it is in fact you who have not accurately perceived the situation, as I have shown in outline. There is not well poisoning on my part, but warranted correction of material and pernicious error. Nor am I particularly singling out RDF, this is simply one of many, many cases in point. KF}
Personally I think the "Failure to Educate?" thread is one of the most important on UD in recent times and deserves follow up discussion. I therefore applaud you starting this follow up thread but I object to the rhetorical approach in some areas as I hope I have made clear.CLAVDIVS
June 18, 2013
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RDF,Please cf the meaning of CANNOT. That is as absolute as it gets. And in addition, there were direct cases in point to the contrary that certain few self evident things, we can be certain of. Error exists is one of them and it mows a wide swath across the field of too much of current thought. I notice, you have tried the usual personalisation-, demonisation- and- dismissal Alinskyite rhetorical tactics while failing to even take up case no 1 (after a month or so . . . ): Error exists is undeniably true. That bluster not backed up by substance is quite revealing to the astute onlooker. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2013
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Axel, poor us, I am sure our views pretty much align. Let's hope some folks out there wake up. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2013
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I don't doubt the truth of any of your #24, KF. Nor - though it might seem that way - did I mean to disparage the analytical intelligence. I just want to clarify that.Axel
June 18, 2013
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Hi KF,
We cannot be absolutely certain of anything“ which is patently self referential and an absolute claim, so inconsistent with itself. Such errors are deeply and broadly pernicious in effect, and urgently need to be corrected.
First, you are mistaken about that statement being contradictory. I did not say "We are absolutely certain that we cannot be absolutely certain". You are off an a very silly tangent with this "self-referential incoherence" thing. Why not actually address the issue instead, which is the limits to epistemic justification. Second, it is simply weird that you talk about "correcting" people. You sould like some shrill schoolmarm rapping people's knuckles. Besides which, you are almost always incorrect. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 18, 2013
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So yes, given sets of infinite transformers, we might as well just say the cardinality is the same. Just don't say that you are comparing the set of non-negative integers to the set of non-negative even integers.Joe
June 18, 2013
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When we move into transfinite sets, what seems obvious from finite cases breaks down.
That's it? THAT is your "answer"?
By a simple member-by-member transformation,...
Otherwise known as "hocus pocus" or "abracadabra". Yes, if you "transform" the elements such that both sets now have the same members, then no duh, they will have the same cardinality. And if you buy that then it would be best to just leave it alone.Joe
June 18, 2013
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I know it seems you disagree with Cantor and math that has followed him on the way to define a transfinite, that a proper subset can be put into one to one correspondence with the set. 1 –> 2, 2 –> 4, 3 –> 6, etc without limit.
Cantor's alignment is abitrary. Given 2 sets, A and B, if A contains all of the members of B AND has members B does not, A’s cardinality has to be greater than B’s. And obvioulsy the set of all non-negative integers contains all of the members of the set of all non-negative even integers AND has members that set does not. It has nothing to do with being sincere. And BTW, Cantor is not "God", he can be wrong ya know... ______ Joe, pardon, while this is off topic, it is sufficiently relevant that I will point out the transformations. Take n in N, and transform n --> 2n. Do so for each member. You move from naturals to evens. Similarly, take n --> (2n - 1) for each n in N in succession . . . 1 --> 1, 2 --> 3, 3 --> 5, etc . . . and you get the odds. This is not an arbitrary transformation, it is a functional transformation and shows the point that they are fundamentally the same. I trust this is enough on this side-topic. KFJoe
June 18, 2013
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Joe: When we move into transfinite sets, what seems obvious from finite cases breaks down. By a simple member-by-member transformation, the set of natural numbers can be converted into the set of evens, or the set of odds. They thus MUST have the same cardinality. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2013
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Axel: Yes, there are many things where indeed love is much more important than smarts [and true wisdom is always far more than mere smarts and certificates . . . ], and indeed God knows and welcomes those who are forever innocent, the most vulnerable among us. The relevance of the subject under scrutiny, however, is not for those, it is that this is an area where to come to certain views, one has to more or less willfully and actively suppress relevant and accessible evidence, the truth that is innate or self evident. Or else, things that you know or SHOULD know. To see a recent example, cf. a previous UD post here, which unfortunately happened AFTER Dr Dawkins had had to publicly concede to correction in a debate with Dr Lennox. Similarly, let us take up one of the examples I have been using for weeks now, Royce's Error exists. This is a generally admitted fact, but it can be easily shown that it is more, it is undeniably true -- and thus self evident. As I have done here all along. This, is just one click away, and in summary has been presented several times across the past several weeks. So, when someone in this context of discourse refuses to attend to such a demonstration and its consequences, and insistently asserts that which is contrary to what s/he SHOULD know, that is not innocent ignorance. That sort of ignorance -- never mind protests to the contrary and distractions of one sort or another -- is (with all due respect and I must speak out of duty to warn and to counsel soundly, never mind how unwelcome this may be) cannot be justified. And that is what I am saying, needs to be fixed. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2013
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Do you still not understand what it means for a set to have the same cardinality as another set?
Given 2 sets, A and B, if A contains all of the members of B AND has members B does not, A's cardinality has to be greater than B's.Joe
June 18, 2013
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Joe: I know it seems you disagree with Cantor and math that has followed him on the way to define a transfinite, that a proper subset can be put into one to one correspondence with the set. 1 --> 2, 2 --> 4, 3 --> 6, etc without limit. You are doubtless sincere in your view, but this is one where I think you are in error. I do ask as well that you refrain in your language, here and elsewhere, that just opens doors for accusations. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, Pardon, did you read what RDF actually stated as was cited in the OP above? He committed a self referential incoherence, which he has duly been corrected for. Namely: "We cannot be absolutely certain of anything" which is patently self referential and an absolute claim, so inconsistent with itself. Such errors are deeply and broadly pernicious in effect, and urgently need to be corrected. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2013
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@Joe: Nice to see you again. I've found your blog! :-)
keiths Still Proud to be an Ignorant [SNIP -- Joe, JWT . . . !]: Let A = all non-negative positive even integers Let B = all positive odd integers Let C = all non-negative integers It is obvious that A + B = C It is also obvious that neither A nor B = 0. And the equation proves that a does not = C and B does not = C. Yet Cantor sez A=B=C, and you morons bought it! If cardinality refers to the number of elements in a set, and we add elements to a set, how can the cardinality stay the same?
Do you still not understand what it means for a set to have the same cardinality as another set? I've pointed you to the wiki article... Have you read it?
we can doubt their honesty and legitimacy.
Well, I DON'T doubt your honesty and legitimacy, despite the things you claim about Cantor. Am I wrong to do so?JWTruthInLove
June 18, 2013
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Your failure to see that people can have different views and hold them honestly and legitimately is a huge failure of character.
When those "different views" are shown to be strawmen or just bald assertions and the people still cling to them, we can doubt their honesty and legitimacy.Joe
June 18, 2013
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I fail to see...
Indeed! Your failure to see that people can have different views and hold them honestly and legitimately is a huge failure of character.Alan Fox
June 18, 2013
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'Finally, I think it is arrogant to suppose we can prove God exists. To do so we would have to be all knowing, and omnipresent and all powerful thus by definition would have to be God.' That sounds like a non sequitur to me, Sal. To understand God, as David mused in one of his psalms, we would have to be eternal, like Him. However, to know that He exists, insofar as it's possible to know anything, is very far from requiring that we should, in effect, be God. The Apostles knew beyond all peradventure that God existed, after Christ's Resurrection - if not before, when, for example, he raised the putrefying body of Lazarus from the grave, fully restored to life, checked the wind and the waves, and so on. The only question that remained for them was how much they were prepared to suffer for the sake of the Gospel. Knowledge of God comes at a price (Christian faith and knowledge constitute a continuum, just as secular faith and knowledge do), and people instinctively know that. Hence the voluntarism underpinning the scriptures. We know what we want to know. Christ never ever indicated that we would be judged on our intelligence or indeed our gullibility. Hence also the mismatch between the aptitude for worldly analytical thinking, and the aptitude for growing in wisdom. God chose the poor, as James wrote in his epistle, to be rich in faith; in a human being, all the stronger and more real for being instinctive and subliminal; in Christian terms, faith ultimately meaning self-giving love, a commitment to love, more than credence, as the description of the Last Judgment in Matthew 23 makes clear.Axel
June 18, 2013
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Sal, do you agree with this statement by RDF: RDF:
I said “To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo.
StephenB
June 18, 2013
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KF: SC: A self referentially incoherent positive assertion denying the possibility of the same class refutes itself.
I said I believe, I didn't say I was certain, hence you mischaracterize what I said, and hence your rebuttal rebuts an argument I didn't make. What I said:
it [RDFish's claim] is a believable statement
I didn't say I was certain of it. Hence, your rebuttal rebuts a claim I didn't make.scordova
June 18, 2013
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Barb: Thanks for thoughts. Indeed, inductive reasoning is inherently provisional. And as a whole a worldview will indeed embed faith. However, we are here talking about some specific and rather narrow points that are self evident, undeniably true on pain of absurdity. They serve as yardsticks and plumblines for reasoning: once we have a red ball sitting on a table, it is itself and not something else as well, it cannot be the ball and not the ball at the same time and in the same sense, and the distinction between ball and not ball means that nothing can be both ball and not ball or neither ball nor not ball. Similarly, we can ask and expect a reasonable answer as to why the ball exists. Third, it is not only generally accepted fact but undeniably true that error exists. Believe it or not, that bit of glorified common sense -- in essence -- is what the past month of drawn out debates has been about. I fail to see how questions (or even accusations) of character such as humility or arrogance and intolerance can legitimately arise, when we look at what is really on the table. KFkairosfocus
June 18, 2013
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kairosfocus @ 6
C: And RDFish was not “hot to undermine the intellectual credibility of the existence of God”. On the contrary, RDFish explicitly stated: “I don’t believe there is any reason not to hold strong beliefs about the Big Questions [including the existence of God], and there are likely benefits to doing so.” kf: Please look again at the thread. That weak people in his estimation may need an emotional crutch or the like, has nothing to do with warrant. And it is warrant he set out to undermine and at least twice listed as a motive.
I already looked at the thread, and posted from the thread a quote that disproved your original false assertion about RDFish being hot to undermine belief in God. Instead of correcting yourself, you've now changed the assertion to a different one about "warrant", which is also false. RDFish objected only to claims of certainty, not warrant. Please try to do better next time.CLAVDIVS
June 18, 2013
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And by the way, I'm not an evolutionary materialist either!! :-)RDFish
June 18, 2013
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RDFish:
Stephen you never fail to misrepresent my beliefs.
You have stated many times that a universe “from nothing” (an uncaused universe) is exactly that same thing as a universe created out of nothing (a caused universe). Are you not going to deny it?StephenB
June 18, 2013
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