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Roger Penrose: Somehow, our consciousness is the reason the universe is here.

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From Steve Paulson of Wisconsin public broadcasting at Nautilus:

Once you start poking around in the muck of consciousness studies, you will soon encounter the specter of Sir Roger Penrose, the renowned Oxford physicist with an audacious—and quite possibly crackpot—theory about the quantum origins of consciousness. He believes we must go beyond neuroscience and into the mysterious world of quantum mechanics to explain our rich mental life. No one quite knows what to make of this theory, developed with the American anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, but conventional wisdom goes something like this: Their theory is almost certainly wrong, but since Penrose is so brilliant (“One of the very few people I’ve met in my life who, without reservation, I call a genius,” physicist Lee Smolin has said), we’d be foolish to dismiss their theory out of hand. Indeed. Naturalism could be just plain bunk.

As I wondered why Penrose keeps hammering away at his theory on consciousness after all these years, I asked him if he thinks there’s any inherent meaning in the universe. His answer surprised me. “Somehow, our consciousness is the reason the universe is here.” So does he think there’s intelligent life—or consciousness—somewhere else in the cosmos? “Yes, but it may be extremely rare.” But if consciousness is the point of this whole shebang, wouldn’t you expect to find some evidence of it beyond Earth? “Well, I’m not so sure our own universe is that favorably disposed toward consciousness,” he said. “You could imagine a universe with a lot more consciousness that’s peppered all over the place. Why aren’t we in one of those rather than this one where it seems to be a rather uncommon activity?

“So, yes, we want to see the purpose of it. I don’t know. Maybe it’s attributing the wrong word. Purpose—what does that mean?” He chuckled. More.

One can’t help wondering if this is suckerbait. Challenged, will Penrose retreat back to the safe little warren of nonsense theories about consciousness? A few are offered below, just to get you started, but we don’t especially recommend it. On the other hand, just for fun, start with, Claim: Science is afraid of animal consciousness. Why? Won’t crackpot theories work as well as they do for human consciousness? What’s different?

See also: Aired on BBC: Consciousness no different than our ability to digest

Thomas Nagel: Daniel Dennett “maintaining a thesis at all costs” in Bacteria to Bach and Back

Physicist: Regrettably, materialism can’t explain mind

Split brain does NOT lead to split consciousness? What? After all the naturalist pop psych lectures we paid good money for at the U? Well, suckers r’ us.

Does the ability to “split” our brains help us understand consciousness? (Apparently not.)

What great physicists have said about immateriality and consciousness

Or else: Consciousness as a state of matter

Rocks have minds?

Researcher: Never mind the “hard problem of consciousness”: The real one is… “Our experiences of being and having a body are ‘controlled hallucinations’ of a very distinctive kind”

Searle on Consciousness “Emerging” from a Computer: “Miracles are always possible.”

Psychology Today: Latest new theory of consciousness A different one from the above.

Evolution bred a sense of reality out of us

Claim: Science is afraid of animal consciousness. Why? Won’t crackpot theories work as well as they do for human consciousness?

So then: Question: Would we give up naturalism to solve the hard problem of consciousness?

Neuroscience tried wholly embracing naturalism, but then the brain got away

Comments
KF @20, You've mentioned a very interesting area of advanced nanotechnology that seems associated with Professor Tour's expertise, doesn't it? Thank you. Here's a couple of links to videos that show Dr. Tour's comments on the subject you referred to: https://www.youtube.com/embed/UoXQ75jlT3c https://www.youtube.com/embed/_zQXgJ-dXM4Dionisio
May 7, 2017
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seversky @ 14
seversky: Intelligent agency is one possible explanation for the origin of life on Earth. ... harry: Please give me another plausible explanation for the emergence of the digital information-based, self-replicating nanotechnology of single-celled life forms on Earth. … seversky: Argument by analogy. … [followed by more intellectual dishonesty]
You avoided giving me another plausible explanation for emergence of the digital information-based, self-replicating nanotechnology of single-celled life forms on Earth. That is because you can't. No analogy is perfect, but some are very good, as is the one between the digital information-based nanotechnology we find in cellular life and man-made, modern technology. Google up biological computer. You will find that restricting one's conception of computing technology to that which is silicon-based is to be living in the past. Even those with your world view see the analogy:
The machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer engineering journal. – Richard Dawkins DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created. – Bill Gates
Just as it would be virtually impossible for self-replicating robotic equipment to be mindlessly and accidentally assembled, so it is with the digital information-based, self-replicating nanotechnology of cellular life. They are both quite obviously the result of the application of scientific knowledge for a purpose, which is the very definition of technology. Just as anybody even slightly familiar with what goes into the creation of modern computerized hardware and software knows you are never going to get self-replicating robotic equipment mindlessly and accidentally, those capable of objectively assessing the likelihood of arriving at digital information-based, self-replicating cellular nanotechnology mindlessly and accidentally – the functional complexity of which is light years beyond our own – realize that that is virtually impossible, too. Do you still believe in math? It has been repeatedly mathematically demonstrated that the temporal and material probabilistic resources provided by the entire Universe are hopelessly insufficient to have allowed the mindless and accidental assembly of the proteins required for the simplest conceivable single-celled, reproducing life form. This is why the assembly instructions for the required proteins had to be recorded in the coding regions of DNA by an intelligent agent. To suggest that the coding regions of DNA were correctly populated mindlessly and accidentally is like suggesting that one could repeatedly fill a cargo plane with Scrabble pieces and dump them out over an empty parking lot as the plane flew over it, and eventually there would be a pass over the parking lot where the pieces would land such that they spelled out a coherent mystery novel. That just isn't going to happen, and neither were the coding regions of DNA going to be populated mindlessly and accidentally. When you insist that somehow life came about mindlessly and accidentally, you are like one insisting that the faces on Mt. Rushmore are the result of mindless and accidental, albeit peculiar erosion. You can believe such a thing if you want to do so, but you must admit that doing so requires a huge, blind, irrational faith. Until the scientific establishment admits that currently any plausible explanation of the emergence of life on planet Earth must include intelligent agency as a causal factor, it is seriously undermining its credibility. And that is a good thing. It helps people to understand that contemporary science has been perverted by atheism and will remain so until it restores to itself the relentless objectivity genuine science requires.harry
May 7, 2017
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Sev, we are familiar with digital tech and systems, including machine code and NC machines. The differences with cell based life are: (1) 4-state elements (the Russians built 3-state element computers FYI . . . ), (2) molecular nanotech (we are just beginning to go down this road), (3) far greater sophistication, including implementation of a molecular tech von Neumann kinematic self replication capability. In addition, a key point of note is, there is but one plausible source of alphabetic coded text in quantity with associated execution machinery -- language-capable intelligence, here, antecedent to cell based life on earth. The attempt to dismiss by mis-applying the "failed/dubious analogy" claim, fails and in fact inadvertently tells us just how strong the argument is. Resort to hyperskeptical dismissal is an indication that the objectors are fending off a strong, but unwelcome case. KFkairosfocus
May 6, 2017
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Discussion thread associated with some of the questions @16: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/functional-information-vs-classical-information-two-mistakes/Dionisio
May 6, 2017
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Seversky @15:
If anything it’s believers who have a problem admitting to ignorance apparently lest they be accused of an unseemly lack of faith or grasp of their chosen theology.
Assuming you responded the question @17, can you provide an example in this website UD to illustrate your affirmation @15? Thank you.Dionisio
May 6, 2017
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Seversky @15:
If anything it’s believers who have a problem [...]
What do you mean by "believers"?Dionisio
May 6, 2017
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Seversky @15:
I have no problem admitting I don’t know where I don’t know.
OK. Now I have a few simple questions for you: 1. Do you know what the concept "complex functional specified information" (CFSI) means? Please, respond just "yes" or "no". No need to explain your answer now. If your answer is "no" then you don't have to read the rest of this comment. Thank you. If your answer to question #1 is "yes" then proceed to the following questions. 2. What does the concept "complex functional specified information" (CFSI) mean? 3. Do you know any example that illustrates that concept "CFSI"? Please, respond just "yes" or "no". No need to explain your answer now. If your answer is "no" then you don't have to read the rest of this comment. Thank you. If your answer to question #3 is "yes" then proceed to the following question. 4. Do you know any example that illustrates that concept "CFSI" in Biology? Please, respond just "yes" or "no". No need to explain your answer now. Thank you.Dionisio
May 6, 2017
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Dionisio @ 10
Please, be nicer to your politely dissenting interlocutors. Refrain from asking difficult questions that they can’t answer well
I have no problem admitting I don't know where I don't know. If anything it's believers who have a problem admitting to ignorance apparently lest they be accused of an unseemly lack of faith or grasp of their chosen theology.Seversky
May 6, 2017
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harry @ 9
Please give me another plausible explanation for the emergence of the digital information-based, self-replicating nanotechnology of single-celled life forms on Earth. I can’t think of one known cause of digital information-based nanotechnology other than intelligent agency.
Argument by analogy. Current computer and miniaturized robotic technologies provide useful concepts with which to model what happens in a biological cell, that's all. They do not necessarily warrant a conclusion of design. Consider this, current thinking is that life on Earth began roughly 3-4 bya. If it was created, it was by an intelligence that was already way more advanced then than we are 3-4 billion years later. Why should what they designed then look like what we are just learning to design now? Remember Arthur C Clarke's dictum about any sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic? If some really advanced alien intelligence created or interfered with life on Earth, the chances are we would never know it unless they wanted us to. So are we looking at evidence of design or pareidolia?
The investigation ends as soon as one arrives at an uncreated intelligent agent, whose existence is not dependent upon another reality, the primary reality whose essence is to be, who might identify Himself as “I AM WHO AM.”
How do you know you've arrived at an uncreated intelligent agent? Do you stop investigating just because He says "I am who am"? How do you know He's not just pulling a Donald Trump?
supernatural – of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena;
Okay, I'd accept that as a working definition of "supernatural". Now, what did you have in mind which fits that definition and that we can investigate?
Actually, the existence of one whose essence is to be, who is the primary reality upon which all other realities are dependent, would be the natural, ordinary reality and everything else would be subnatural. Instead of talking about the supernatural and the natural, maybe we should say natural where we now say supernatural, and subnatural where we now say natural. ;o)
Why not simplify it still further and just call it all natural but admit that although we know a little about it and are slowly learning more, there's still an awful lot we don't know. We could call it "naturalism".
So if the natural Universe — time, space, matter and energy — was known to have a beginning, and since nothing begins to exist without a cause, then science should happily consider a cause for the natural Universe that, of course, wasn’t natural since the natural is what was caused. Right? You can’t get much more causally efficacious than bringing the entire Universe into existence
We have evidence that this universe had a beginning but how do we know it was the beginning?Seversky
May 6, 2017
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Do you knuckleheads deny that conscious is primary? What a funny groupmike1962
May 6, 2017
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Roger Penrose:
Somehow, our consciousness is the reason the universe is here.
In other words, dear reader, consciousness 'somehow' causes the universe. "But what caused consciousness?", you might ask. Well, Penrose and Hameroff have that covered as well:
In the Penrose-Hameroff theory of Orchestrated Objective Reduction, known as Orch-OR, these moments of conscious awareness are orchestrated by the microtubules in our brains, which—they believe—have the capacity to store and process information and memory.
There is your answer: "microtubules" ... Microtubulus, billions and billions of them, cause consciousness. Let's summarize (a coherent picture is emerging here): In the beginning there were the Microtubules who caused Consciousness, which in turn 'somehow' causes the Universe. Questions anyone?Origenes
May 6, 2017
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What a mean pair !Axel
May 6, 2017
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harry @9:
Please give me another plausible explanation for the emergence of the digital information-based, self-replicating nanotechnology of single-celled life forms on Earth. I can’t think of one known cause of digital information-based nanotechnology other than intelligent agency.
Please, be nicer to your politely dissenting interlocutors. Refrain from asking difficult questions that they can't answer well. :) A couple of years ago I asked a much easier biology question --right here in this website-- to a distinguished Canadian biochemistry professor who failed it so embarrassingly that my question was immediately classified as 'dishonest' though I still don't know exactly why. :) Your question is much more difficult, hence it could be catalogued as offensive or even worse. In any case it's politically incorrect. :)Dionisio
May 6, 2017
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Seversky @ 7
Intelligent agency is one possible explanation for the origin of life on Earth.
Please give me another plausible explanation for the emergence of the digital information-based, self-replicating nanotechnology of single-celled life forms on Earth. I can't think of one known cause of digital information-based nanotechnology other than intelligent agency.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t help with the origin of life itself. There would still be the question of the origin of the intelligent agency that was the origin of life on Earth.
The investigation ends as soon as one arrives at an uncreated intelligent agent, whose existence is not dependent upon another reality, the primary reality whose essence is to be, who might identify Himself as "I AM WHO AM."
Tell us what you mean by “supernatural” and how we might find evidence that it exists at all and we can evaluate it as a possible cause.
supernatural - of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; You don't have to know if the intelligent agent is supernatural to realize that intelligent agency was necessarily a causal factor in the emergence of digital information-based, self-replicating nanotechnology. If you insist on finding out if the intelligent agent is supernatural then you have to rule out natural intelligent agents. Actually, the existence of one whose essence is to be, who is the primary reality upon which all other realities are dependent, would be the natural, ordinary reality and everything else would be subnatural. Instead of talking about the supernatural and the natural, maybe we should say natural where we now say supernatural, and subnatural where we now say natural. ;o)
The reality is that science will consider anything that can be shown to be causally efficacious.
So if the natural Universe -- time, space, matter and energy -- was known to have a beginning, and since nothing begins to exist without a cause, then science should happily consider a cause for the natural Universe that, of course, wasn't natural since the natural is what was caused. Right? You can't get much more causally efficacious than bringing the entire Universe into existence.harry
May 6, 2017
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Minlie Huang, a computer scientist at Tsinghua University, Beijing and co-author, said: “We’re still far away from a machine that can fully understand the user’s emotion. This is just the first attempt at this problem.” https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/05/human-robot-interactions-take-step-forward-with-emotional-chatting-machine-chatbot How far from a robot that can feel its own emotions? BTW, who creates the unconscious robots?Dionisio
May 6, 2017
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harry @ 4
So, why is it so difficult for the scientific establishment to admit that currently the only plausible explanation of the origin of life is that it was the result of intelligent agency, and then leave it to metaphysicians, theologians and philosophers to worry about the nature of the being that that rational intelligence was associated with?
Intelligent agency is one possible explanation for the origin of life on Earth. Unfortunately, it doesn't help with the origin of life itself. There would still be the question of the origin of the intelligent agency that was the origin of life on Earth.
It is so difficult because the scientific establishment now sees its primary responsibility as maintaining methodological naturalism, a strategy for studying the world, by which scientists choose not to consider supernatural causes – even as a remote possibility. Yet they don’t have to assume that the intelligent agent is supernatural. All they have to do is admit that it looks as though a known reality – rational intelligence – was a necessary causal factor in the emergence of life. That’s it.
Tell us what you mean by "supernatural" and how we might find evidence that it exists at all and we can evaluate it as a possible cause. Otherwise, it is useless as an explanation.
Contemporary science has been perverted by atheism. It no longer sees its primary responsibility as the maintenance of a relentlessly objective pursuit of the truth, but instead as the defense of a particular strategy it mistakenly thinks is threatened by the evidence.
It is a standard creationist canard that science excludes supernatural and/or religious explanations through an ideological commitment to methodological naturalism. The reality is that science will consider anything that can be shown to be causally efficacious. Those who promote their beliefs in supernatural and/or religious phenomena have yet to demonstrate that they are anything other than beliefs.Seversky
May 5, 2017
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Nonsense remains nonsense regardless of who says it. Perhaps a reason why David Chalmers calls it 'the hard problem of consciousness' is because it places science between a rock and a hard place.Dionisio
May 5, 2017
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Simply in terms of the title, it is consistent with 'intersubjectivity' and my contention that we each live in a little world of our own, integrated and coordinated by God, no longer seamlessly at the quantum level ; a notion first postulated by a Talmudist, perhaps, centuries ago, when he asserted that, when a human being dies, a whole world disappears with him. Or am I mistaken in this?Axel
May 5, 2017
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Rational intelligence is known to be a reality. It isn't known whether it is only associated with biological human beings. Higher forms of biological life have limited intelligence but none have anything that approaches humanity's rationality. We don't know that rational intelligence can only exist in association with biological humanity. This is made clear at the link provided in the article:
What great physicists have said about immateriality and consciousness.
And by information at links provided on that page by bornagain77 and by vjtorley. So, why is it so difficult for the scientific establishment to admit that currently the only plausible explanation of the origin of life is that it was the result of intelligent agency, and then leave it to metaphysicians, theologians and philosophers to worry about the nature of the being that that rational intelligence was associated with? It is so difficult because the scientific establishment now sees its primary responsibility as maintaining methodological naturalism, a strategy for studying the world, by which scientists choose not to consider supernatural causes - even as a remote possibility. Yet they don't have to assume that the intelligent agent is supernatural. All they have to do is admit that it looks as though a known reality – rational intelligence – was a necessary causal factor in the emergence of life. That's it. Contemporary science has been perverted by atheism. It no longer sees its primary responsibility as the maintenance of a relentlessly objective pursuit of the truth, but instead as the defense of a particular strategy it mistakenly thinks is threatened by the evidence. The implications of an intelligent agent of some sort being a causal factor in the emergence of life threatens atheism, but doesn't really threaten methodological naturalism because rational intelligence is known to be a natural reality.harry
May 5, 2017
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The insight that seems to be missing in contemporary "consciousness studies", has been pointed out at this forum many times: blind processes (stochastic or determined) do not get us to free responsible rational personhood.
Hameroff suggests that microtubules are the quantum device that Penrose had been looking for in his theory. In neurons, microtubules help control the strength of synaptic connections, and their tube-like shape might protect them from the surrounding noise of the larger neuron.
So microtubules orchestrate synaptic connections into a consciousness? How do they do that? Do they have a plan? Do they steer themselves? What is directing their cooperation? Please ....
Still, you’d need more than just a continuous flood of random moments of quantum coherence to have any impact on consciousness. The process would need to be structured, or orchestrated, in some way so we can make conscious choices.
Bravo! Yes indeed, let's have some structure at the very least. Would 'structure' explain consciousness? Not likely, but 'chaos' sure does not.
In the Penrose-Hameroff theory of Orchestrated Objective Reduction, known as Orch-OR, these moments of conscious awareness are orchestrated by the microtubules in our brains, which—they believe—have the capacity to store and process information and memory.
But that is ridiculous you fools! We are right back where we started .... When will you EVER learn? Microtubules do not have the decision-power to form consciousness, rationality and so forth. They don't have the overview, plan, self-control and so forth that is required to perform such a daunting job. Why would anyone hold that they have all this?Origenes
May 5, 2017
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That someone as intelligent and rational as Roger Penrose should say something like this only indicates that science is in horrible shape, and that the abandonment of philosophy, especially Aristotelian philosophy, has damaged science greatly. What science needs is religious believers. Religious believers are best connected to a realistic basis for ontogeny and cosmology.PaV
May 5, 2017
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“Somehow, our consciousness is the reason the universe is here.” And yet, I can consciously lie, convincingly, and it doesn't alter the universe one whit, not for my observations nor for the observations of those who believe my lie. If our consciousness determines the universe, why don't lies change what we observe? If the universe determines our consciousness, how can a true universe determine a conscious lie? Occam's razor: They're not related.Charles
May 5, 2017
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