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Thoughts on the soul

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In the recent discussion on causation, I noted:

KF, 72: >>As I think about cause, I am led to ponder a current discussion that echoes Plato on the self-moved, ensouled agent with genuine freedom. Without endorsing wider context, John C Wright draws out a key point that we may ponder as a nugget drawn from a stream-bed:

Men have souls [–> that which gives us self-moved, responsible, rational freedom].

Once one accepts that premise, one must accept the conclusions that follow from it: creatures with souls are not evolved from slime, since spirit, being simple and eternal, cannot be brought into being by matter, which is compound, subject to change and decay, nor brought into being by any blind natural process; therefore, instead, spirit must be created in a divine image, with the faculties of reason and conscience and creativity. Living spirits like man hence are responsible each man for his own action, hence by right are worthy of the fruits each man of his own labor. Since this right comes not from the state, it should not in justice be abrogated by the state, for the right to property is sacrosanct, and, by the same logic, so too are all rights to life and liberty and to the freedom of the conscience. [–> I add, echoing the US DoI of 1776: the state enters, with the consent of the governed, as a common means to safeguard the civil peace of justice; that due balance of rights, freedoms and duties in community which cannot be reliably pursued otherwise — in which context, it has a legitimate power of moderate, prudent taxation as a cost-effective means to fund the defence and reasonable enhancement of the common good.]

Nor can a created being overstep the authority created into him by his creator, that is, Man cannot play God; which means he cannot slay innocent children in the womb nor murder the sick and elderly and useless gobblers of bread, nor breed men like dogsbreeders breeding dogs, nor commit suicide oneself, not even the slow suicide of addiction to self-destructive substances and ideas.

If man is created by divinity, it is not in his choice to demean and trample the image of God in himself nor his neighbor: modesty, honesty, humility, patience, prudence and temperance become sacrosanct.

Even such seemingly unrelated matters, such as the low dirt of modern speech, the crass ugliness of modern art, the vainglorious ignorance of modern schooling, become offenses against this divine image seen in man . . . .

If men have souls, what does skin hue matter?

It is that lost vision that is the context for the present endarkening of our civilisation, in which what we imagine is light is instead such darkness that we often imagine that light is darkness, accusing him who is Reason Himself and Goodness Himself of being an arbitrary would-be cosmological tyrant. That is why something as out of kilter as Euthyphro’s dilemma could even seem plausible. That seeming plausibility is a diagnostic sign of our soul-sickness.>>

I think, this is significant enough to headline. END

Comments
SA
How do we know that for a “fact”?
Identical twins.Ed George
January 25, 2020
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EG
If the unique immortal “soul”, that you believe is the essence of what makes us human, exists, we know for a fact that it can’t be imparted at conception.
How do we know that for a "fact"?Silver Asiatic
January 25, 2020
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KF
EG, you again build in many loaded assumptions. KF
These aren’t loaded assumptions (whatever that means), they are questions critical to the rights of the fetus. If the unique immortal “soul”, that you believe is the essence of what makes us human, exists, we know for a fact that it can’t be imparted at conception. That means that the fertilized egg does not have the one critical factor that makes it human. And if it doesn’t have this, it can’t have the objective right to life that you believe it does. The question then becomes, at what stage of pregnancy is the “soul” imparted on the fetus? Only by answering this can you objectively argue that any abortion conducted past that stage is murder.Ed George
January 25, 2020
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as to Seversky's drive by post:
The fact that we are created beings, as the founding fathers of America themselves noted, is a blatantly obvious self-evident truth. Sev: It was apparently also blatantly obvious to the Founding Fathers that slaves, women and the poor had not been endowed by their Creator with these unalienable rights.
Hmm, an atheist appealing to objective morality, which can only be grounded in God, to try to deny the 'self evident truth' that we are created beings? Too funny, Too bad the irony is lost on Seversky
Moreover,, it is on pain of self-induced insanity that one denies this self-evident truth that we are created beings. As Jay Homnick noted, “Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident…you have essentially lost your mind.” Sev: I suppose we should not be surprised that the editor of The American Spectator should believe, like Paleyists, that highly complex organisms were created de novo out of nothing – something no evolutionist believes.
So what? Who cares what evolutionists believe? The question is what can evolutionists, via empirical science, prove?
Indeed, even leading Darwinists themselves have admitted that life ‘appears’ to be designed, Sev: The Sun appears to go around the Earth. That appearance does not make it true.
Actually, the 'truth' is far different than what you, and most everyone else, believes:
November 2019 - despite the fact that virtually everyone, including the vast majority of Christians, hold that the Copernican Principle is unquestionably true, the fact of the matter is that the Copernican Principle is now empirically shown, (via quantum mechanics and general relativity, etc..), to be a false assumption. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/so-then-maybe-we-are-privileged-observers/#comment-688855
as to
In fact, it has now been demonstrated that belief in design is the default, i.e. ‘knee jerk’, assumption of atheists themselves, Sev: Possibly because children learn from intelligent agents – their parents, who have survived long enough to raise them – about the behavior of other intelligent agents – the rest of their social group.
Well actually,
Out of the mouths of babes - Do children believe (in God) because they're told to by adults? The evidence suggests otherwise - Justin Barrett - 2008 Excerpt: • Children tend to see natural objects as designed or purposeful in ways that go beyond what their parents teach, as Deborah Kelemen has demonstrated. Rivers exist so that we can go fishing on them, and birds are here to look pretty. • Children doubt that impersonal processes can create order or purpose. Studies with children show that they expect that someone not something is behind natural order. No wonder that Margaret Evans found that children younger than 10 favoured creationist accounts of the origins of animals over evolutionary accounts even when their parents and teachers endorsed evolution. Authorities' testimony didn't carry enough weight to over-ride a natural tendency. • Children know humans are not behind the order so the idea of a creating god (or gods) makes sense to them. Children just need adults to specify which one. • Experimental evidence, including cross-cultural studies, suggests that three-year-olds attribute super, god-like qualities to lots of different beings. Super-power, super-knowledge and super-perception seem to be default assumptions. Children then have to learn that mother is fallible, and dad is not all powerful, and that people will die. So children may be particularly receptive to the idea of a super creator-god. It fits their predilections. • Recent research by Paul Bloom, Jesse Bering, and Emma Cohen suggests that children may also be predisposed to believe in a soul that persists beyond death. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2008/nov/25/religion-children-god-belief
as to
As the following video shows, atheists have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference! Sev: Yes, it takes more mental effort to think critically about what others tell you. It’s much easier just to take it at face value.
Trouble is that atheists are not 'thinking critically' about design, they are 'rationalizing away design' with superficial and false excuses. (Much like you are trying to do right now)
It is not that Atheists do not see purpose and/or Design in nature and biology, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided reason, suppress their innate design intuition. Sev: No, we subject our “innate design intuition” to critical evaluation rather than just settling for “Goddidit”.
Fair enough, skepticism is part and parcel of empirical science. Trouble for dogmatic atheists, as Barry Arrington pointed out a few years ago, is that dogmatic atheists are never skeptical of Darwinian evolution itself. Even a modest amount of skepticism of Darwinian evolution by Darwinists would be enough to overturn their belief in Darwinian evolution. But alas, the theory is blindly believed to be true by Darwinists no matter what the evidence says to the contrary.
Yet, although Dawkins may believe that “the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design”, the fact of the matter is that no one has ever demonstrated that natural selection has the capacity within itself to produce the overwhelming “appearance of design”. Sev: No one has run – or is likely to run in the foreseeable future – an experiment long enough to demonstrate whether or not natural selection alone can produce the highly complex organisms we see now. The nearest to such research is Richard Lenski’s Long Term Evolutionary Experiment in which the number of generations now is roughly equivalent to over 1,200,000 years of human evolution. Except that the evolution of life on Earth took billions of years and the E. coli bacterium is not exactly equivalent to a human being.
There are many lines of evidence that establish that Darwinian processes are grossly inadequate to explain the overwhelming 'appearance of design"
Darwin vs. Microbes (Where’s the substantiating evidence for Darwinian evolution?) - video https://youtu.be/ntxc4X9Zt-I
As to
In fact, it has now been empirically demonstrated that natural selection does NOT have the capacity within itself to produce the overwhelming ‘appearance of design’. Sev: No, it hasn’t.
Yes! It Has!
Man procreates, and may someday even clone his own body by putting his own DNA in an egg. But Souls are created by God alone. That may be your belief but it is not science by a long chalk. You cannot demonstrate the existence of something called the “soul” empirically and if you look at just the Wikipedia entry for “soul” you will see that there is not even a coherent or consistent definition of such an entity.
Funny, You claim that "You cannot demonstrate the existence of something called the “soul” empirically" and yet that is precisely what has been done. Namely, it is now empirically demonstrated that man has a ubiquitous transcendent, i.e. beyond space and time, component to his being, i.e. a 'soul', that is not reducible to materialistic explanations and which is capable of living past the death of our material bodies., (i.e. the most basic definition off a soul that you can have!)
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
As to
Nor does your equivalent of the “luminiferous aether” – quantum mechanics – help. But if you’re actually interested in what QM says, here is a basic primer.
Actually, it might greatly behoove you to learn a little bit about quantum mechanics, and how it correlates with fundamental, defining, attributes of the immaterial mind, before you try to delude yourself into falsely believing that you have the slightest clue what quantum mechanics actually entails:
How Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Correlate - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f0hL3Nrdas
bornagain77
January 25, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
And if this were done, would the clone have a “soul”?
If it doesn't it doesn't have a chance @ being alive.ET
January 25, 2020
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Earth to seversky- You cannot demonstrate anything via materialistic processes. Natural selection has proven to be impotent with respect to creating the diversity of life. It doesn't have a chance of producing eukaryotes from given starting populations of prokaryotes. You have to be a total desperate denialist to think that nature can produce codes and the components and systems to carry them out. YOU don't even know how to test such a concept. That is how intellectually bankrupt your position is.ET
January 25, 2020
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Bornagain77 @ 65
The fact that we are created beings, as the founding fathers of America themselves noted, is a blatantly obvious self-evident truth.
It was apparently also blatantly obvious to the Founding Fathers that slaves, women and the poor had not been endowed by their Creator with these unalienable rights.
Moreover,, it is on pain of self-induced insanity that one denies this self-evident truth that we are created beings. As Jay Homnick noted, “Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident…you have essentially lost your mind.”
I suppose we should not be surprised that the editor of The American Spectator should believe, like Paleyists, that highly complex organisms were created de novo out of nothing - something no evolutionist believes.
Indeed, even leading Darwinists themselves have admitted that life ‘appears’ to be designed,
The Sun appears to go around the Earth. That appearance does not make it true.
In fact, it has now been demonstrated that belief in design is the default, i.e. ‘knee jerk’, assumption of atheists themselves,
Possibly because children learn from intelligent agents - their parents, who have survived long enough to raise them - about the behavior of other intelligent agents - the rest of their social group.
As the following video shows, atheists have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference!
Yes, it takes more mental effort to think critically about what others tell you. It's much easier just to take it at face value.
It is not that Atheists do not see purpose and/or Design in nature and biology, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided reason, suppress their innate design intuition.
No, we subject our "innate design intuition" to critical evaluation rather than just settling for "Goddidit".
Yet, although Dawkins may believe that “the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design”, the fact of the matter is that no one has ever demonstrated that natural selection has the capacity within itself to produce the overwhelming “appearance of design”.
No one has run - or is likely to run in the foreseeable future - an experiment long enough to demonstrate whether or not natural selection alone can produce the highly complex organisms we see now. The nearest to such research is Richard Lenski's Long Term Evolutionary Experiment in which the number of generations now is roughly equivalent to over 1,200,000 years of human evolution. Except that the evolution of life on Earth took billions of years and the E. coli bacterium is not exactly equivalent to a human being.
In fact, it has now been empirically demonstrated that natural selection does NOT have the capacity within itself to produce the overwhelming ‘appearance of design’.
No, it hasn't.
Man procreates, and may someday even clone his own body by putting his own DNA in an egg. But Souls are created by God alone.
That may be your belief but it is not science by a long chalk. You cannot demonstrate the existence of something called the "soul" empirically and if you look at just the Wikipedia entry for "soul" you will see that there is not even a coherent or consistent definition of such an entity. Nor does your equivalent of the "luminiferous aether" - quantum mechanics - help. But if you're actually interested in what QM says, here is a basic primer. Seversky
January 25, 2020
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At 50 Ed George stated,
"Ignoring the fact that nobody has demonstrated that we are created beings,,,,"
The fact that we are created beings, as the founding fathers of America themselves noted, is a blatantly obvious self-evident truth.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” - Thomas Jefferson
Moreover,, it is on pain of self-induced insanity that one denies this self-evident truth that we are created beings. As Jay Homnick noted, "Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident...you have essentially lost your mind."
"It is not enough to say that design is a more likely scenario to explain a world full of well-designed things. Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident...you have essentially lost your mind." - Jay Homnick - senior editor of The American Spectator - 2005
Indeed, even leading Darwinists themselves have admitted that life 'appears' to be designed,
"Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose" - Richard Dawkins - "The Blind Watchmaker" - 1986 - page 1 "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved." - Francis Crick - What Mad Pursuit - pg. 138 - 1990 http://darwinianfundamentalism.blogspot.com/2013/11/biologists-must-constantly-keep-in-mind.html
And as Louise Lerner from the University of Chicago, who has a degree in Anthropology/Biology, recently stated in this article from physorg,,,
Surprise discovery shakes up our understanding of gene expression - Louise Lerner - JANUARY 22, 2020 Excerpt: The human body is among the most complex pieces of machinery to exist. Every time you so much as scratch your nose, you're using more intricate engineering than any rocket ship or supercomputer ever designed. https://phys.org/news/2020-01-discovery-gene.html
In fact, it has now been demonstrated that belief in design is the default, i.e. 'knee jerk', assumption of atheists themselves,
Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
As the following video shows, atheists have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o
It is not that Atheists do not see purpose and/or Design in nature and biology, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided reason, suppress their innate design intuition. The means by which Darwinian atheists suppress their innate design inference is by telling themselves 'just so stories' with the illusory and impotent 'Designer substitute' of natural selection. As Richard Dawkins himself states, "the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design,,,"
"Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning." Richard Dawkins - "The Blind Watchmaker" - 1986 - page 21
Yet, although Dawkins may believe that "the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design", the fact of the matter is that no one has ever demonstrated that natural selection has the capacity within itself to produce the overwhelming "appearance of design".
“the uncritical acceptance of natural selection as an explanatory force for all aspects of biodiversity (without any direct evidence) is not much different than invoking an intelligent designer” Michael Lynch – The Origins of Genome Architecture, p 368 “The Third Way” – James Shapiro, Denis Noble, and etc.. etc..,,, excerpt: “some Neo-Darwinists have elevated Natural Selection into a unique creative force that solves all the difficult evolutionary problems without a real empirical basis.” http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/
In fact, it has now been empirically demonstrated that natural selection does NOT have the capacity within itself to produce the overwhelming 'appearance of design'. Specifically, the argument that Dr. Behe made in his book "The Edge of Evolution" has now been empirically verified, As Dr. Behe states in the following video, "This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not."
Michael Behe - Observed (1 in 10^20) Edge of Evolution - video - Lecture delivered in April 2015 at Colorado School of Mines 25:56 minute quote - "This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svV8wNUqvA
Thus since Darwinian processes are now demonstrated to be grossly inadequate as to explaining the overwhelming 'appearance of deign', then, as Richard Sternberg explains, "if that (natural selection) just does not explain the evidence — then the flip side of that is, well, things appear designed because they are designed.”
“Darwinism provided an explanation for the appearance of design, and argued that there is no Designer — or, if you will, the designer is natural selection. If that’s out of the way — if that (natural selection) just does not explain the evidence — then the flip side of that is, well, things appear designed because they are designed.” Richard Sternberg – Living Waters documentary Whale Evolution vs. Population Genetics – Richard Sternberg and Paul Nelson – (excerpt from Living Waters video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0csd3M4bc0Q
At 50 Ed George goes on to state,
"this (i.e. the fact that an idea must precede a created entity) means that the “soul” must exist before conception. Fair enough. Does this mean that if I were to clone myself, something that is well within modern capabilities, that my clone would lack a “soul”?"
I have no clue what Ed George is trying to get at here. Does Ed George somehow believe that identical twins are the same soul? If so, that is simply a preposterous belief on his part. Man procreates, and may someday even clone his own body by putting his own DNA in an egg. But Souls are created by God alone. As to how souls are actualized into the human body during embryological development by God, I touched upon that set of facts in posts 5 and 6. Specifically, via advances in quantum biology and quantum information theory, it is now found that an 'observer', who is outside space and time itself, (i.e. GOD), is necessary in order to give us an adequate causal account for exactly why the human body is being raised, during embryological development, to a state that is even further out of thermodynamic equilibrium than the fertilized egg itself is.,,, i.e. On the order of around 30 trillion times the information content of a single fertile egg, i.e. per post 5, "about 300 trillion times the information content contained within the books of all the largest libraries in the world." As should be needless to say, that is a tremendous amount of 'immaterial' information that is coming into the developing embryo, (from outside space-time itself), in order to raise the developing embryo to a state that is tremendously out of thermodynamic equilibrium. Darwinists simply have no hope, especially within their reductive materialistic framework, of ever explaining where this tremendous amount of immaterial information is coming from:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
Thus in conclusion, contrary to what Ed George may want to believe beforehand, i.e. "nobody has demonstrated that we are created beings,,,,", the fact of the matter is that it IS now demonstrated that we are indeed created beings. It would have been more proper for Ed George to say that their is no scientific evidence that he himself, as a die-hard atheist, will personally ever accept as to demonstrating that we are created beings. But alas, empirical science itself could care less what Ed George wants to believe beforehand. I myself could care less what Ed George wants to believe beforehand, especially if it disagrees with the empirical evidence.bornagain77
January 25, 2020
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EG, you again build in many loaded assumptions. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2020
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A baby, born or not yet born, is by definition weak, voiceless, vulnerable. So, it is "naturally" prey. Thus, one of the key aspects of parenthood, family and family-friendly community is to protect the most vulnerable of all, who literally embody our future, our posterity. So, there is a long term "fitness" test that weighs societies and civilisations in the balances. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2020
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KF
EG, what, precisely, do you mean by cloning yourself, and how can such be done.
In reproductive cloning, researchers remove a mature somatic cell, such as a skin cell, from an animal that they wish to copy. They then transfer the DNA of the donor animal's somatic cell into an egg cell, or oocyte, that has had its own DNA-containing nucleus removed.
This has been done with many mammals and there are no restrictions, other than ethically, why it wouldn’t work with humans. And if this were done, would the clone have a “soul”? Would it share the “soul” of the donor DNA? Or of the donor of the oocyte? This would imply that “souls” are not unique and are divisible.Ed George
January 24, 2020
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@Ed George
I don’t think there is a single answer to this. If a woman has an abortion just because they do not want to have children then they are not increasing their “fitness”. However, if they have an abortion because they are too young and not financially prepared for children, then an abortion could increase their “fitness” if it opens the door to them having a larger number of children when they are ready.
Was not the "goal" of survival to live enough to reproduce?
Alcock, an evolutionary biologist, therefore concluded that "we exist solely to propagate the genes within us."
Truthfreedom
January 24, 2020
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@Silver Asiatic
What specific fitness advantage did that particular feature have? Well, again – whatever it was, it certainly worked well because the organisms are alive and well. Running fast, moving slow, protecting children, killing children, easy reproductive path, difficult reproductive path, limited diet, expansive diet, robust exterior, delicate exterior, predator to many species, predator to none …
Their just-so stories. Darwinism and imagination go hand in hand, and what a lethal combination.Truthfreedom
January 24, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
This is common in some fish as a means of making smaller size foods available to the adults, thus allowing more reproduction.
More reproduction just leads to more food. Reproduce so you can eat. Doesn't sound like a good evolutionary strategy...ET
January 24, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
Ignoring the fact that nobody has demonstrated that we are created beings, …
It's what the evidence says-> that we are Created/ Intelligently Designed beings.
Does this mean that if I were to clone myself, something that is well within modern capabilities, that my clone would lack a “soul”?
That would be up to the giver of souls.ET
January 24, 2020
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EG, what, precisely, do you mean by cloning yourself, and how can such be done. What is the actual empirical evidence on cloning of human beings -- speculation is not enough, nor is sci fi. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2020
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EG, 50: "nobody has demonstrated that we are created beings" It is most satisfactorily shown that life based on cells uses language in its central operations. Language is a signature of design, thus of small-c creation. Next, the increments in FSCO/I (a lot of it directly coded information) to get to humans is beyond any reasonable reach of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. The result is the same, small-c creation. Multiply, by the fine tuning of the observed cosmos [the only actually observed cosmos] that supports C-chem, aqueous medium, cell based life on terrestrial planets in circumstellar and galactic habitable zones. That indicates design of the universe, so big-C creation. Assumptions, assertions, arguments and claims to the contrary have now consistently failed. It is time to set such aside. KF PS: The idea of a soul and its actualisation are categorically distinct matters.kairosfocus
January 24, 2020
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JAD
The theory behind eugenics was that it was supposed to correct what would have happened if natural selection had been allowed to continue unimpeded. That is, natural selection would have eliminated weaker, undesirable members of society– “morons, mental defectives [and] epileptics,” in Sanger’s words.
I happened to come across this earlier today:
Herbert Spencer (1820-1903). Spencer was an English social philosopher and prime advocate of Darwin`s theories, perhaps doing more than any other figure of his era to gain acceptance for the theory of evolution. Spencer also applied Darwinian theory to human development, arguing that wealth and power were signs of fitness and that mankind benefited from intense competition and removal of the weak and unfit.
There again, it mentions "the removal of the weak and unfit". That was classic Darwinism. The "unfit" obviously didn't have the fitness advantage so they wouldn't be naturally selected. Getting rid of the unfit was an evolutionary activity. Margaret Sanger said and worked for the same thing. There's a group that is fighting what they call "black genocide" which is where abortion advocates target poor, black neighborhoods. People are "concerned" about high birth rates in poor neighborhoods. Abortion is one means of "eliminating the unfit".
Of course, how anyone could know what would have happened– well, that’s the big problem with eugenics as it is for everyone else. None of us have a crystal ball which allows us to peer into the future.
True. Evolution is supposed to be "more certain than gravity". With gravity, when I see a round object rolling down a hillside, I can explain fairly accurately where it will end up. That's gravity. Evolutionists don't really do predictions like that. They can't do them. It's the moral quality of human beings that fights against genocidal atheism of the sort that Sanger, Huxley and the signatories of the Eugenics Manifesto promoted. https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_depopu16e.htmSilver Asiatic
January 24, 2020
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I have asked dozens of them how the two above statements relate to “fitness” and, until today, I have not received a single logical answer.
I've been arguing with them for over 15 years. The Theory works like this: 1. We observe organisms today. They are alive. So, they survived. 2. Whatever survived must have had a fitness advantage, otherwise they would not have been selected. So, what we observed has a fitness advantage. 3. Whatever features we observe, whatever behaviors, everything about the organism contributes to the fitness advantage. What specific fitness advantage did that particular feature have? Well, again - whatever it was, it certainly worked well because the organisms are alive and well. Running fast, moving slow, protecting children, killing children, easy reproductive path, difficult reproductive path, limited diet, expansive diet, robust exterior, delicate exterior, predator to many species, predator to none … Abortion, homosexuality, birth control -- are all playing a part in reducing the human population in some areas. Demographers estimate that global population growth will end this century. https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2017/02/01/death-spiral-demographics-the-countries-shrinking-the-fastest/#4698b476b83c Evolution tells us nothing.Silver Asiatic
January 24, 2020
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Abortion is just another form of eugenics. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was an early twentieth century eugenicist. Despite being a racist (she called for the targeted sterilization of African Americans*) she is still celebrated by the secular progressive movement in the U.S. The theory behind eugenics was that it was supposed to correct what would have happened if natural selection had been allowed to continue unimpeded. That is, natural selection would have eliminated weaker, undesirable members of society-- “morons, mental defectives [and] epileptics,” in Sanger’s words. Of course, how anyone could know what would have happened-- well, that’s the big problem with eugenics as it is for everyone else. None of us have a crystal ball which allows us to peer into the future. [*In a letter (12/10/39) to Clarence Gamble, she wrote, “We don’t want the word to get out that we want to exterminate the Negro population.”]john_a_designer
January 24, 2020
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I just want to understand how our Evo- friends explain this: If I kill my offspring: – Does it increse “fitness”? – Or does it decrease “fitness”?
I don't think there is a single answer to this. If a woman has an abortion just because they do not want to have children then they are not increasing their "fitness". However, if they have an abortion because they are too young and not financially prepared for children, then an abortion could increase their "fitness" if it opens the door to them having a larger number of children when they are ready.Ed George
January 24, 2020
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TF, some predators will kill their own species or their own offspring. KF
This is common in some fish as a means of making smaller size foods available to the adults, thus allowing more reproduction. Fitness can take many different forms.Ed George
January 24, 2020
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And this follows logically from first principles in that, as Karsten Pultz recently pointed out, the Idea for a created entity must necessarily precede the created entity.
Ignoring the fact that nobody has demonstrated that we are created beings, this means that the "soul" must exist before conception. Fair enough. Does this mean that if I were to clone myself, something that is well within modern capabilities, that my clone would lack a "soul"?Ed George
January 24, 2020
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@47 Silver Asiatic
Maybe there is some mysterious fitness advantage by killing your own children.
Misterious indeed, because a woman killing her own children is not passing her genes on. And why should people feel outrage and battle abortion? Evolutionists, please? I would really love to know. I have asked dozens of them how the two above statements relate to "fitness" and, until today, I have not received a single logical answer. I am dying to know. Or maybe your ToE is crap?Truthfreedom
January 24, 2020
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TF, some predators will kill their own species or their own offspring. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2020
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TF The leftist, Communist (as in China), abortionist or otherwise anti-God person wants you to kill your baby or to use birth control and not have any babies. That way, they can have a fitness advantage over you. So, they try to frighten you or ridicule you, until you believe their lies and do exactly what they want. That's social-manipulation for the fitness advantage of those in control, and those we allow to influence us and tell us what we should think. Strangely, those same powers who are convincing you to kill your children, actually don't take advantage of their fitness benefits because they do the very same stupid things and kill their own kids with abortion and birth control. What advantage is that, when they don't have any competition? All we can say is that the Blind Watchmaker told them what to do and they listened and followed. Maybe there is some mysterious fitness advantage by killing your own children. You'll eventually outpopulate your competition because??? Maybe they kill more than you do? So, instead of an arms race to get stronger against each other, it's a race to see who will die off slowest. We might imagine that it would just be easier to have a fitness advantage by not killing one's own kids and simply having them. But that sounds too much like something God would want, so the Blind Watchmaker is against it. The key idea is that as long as they get rid of God, evolution will be a success. They're hoping that everyone will just kill themselves off and leave a lot of nice places for their own families, but it's not working that way.Silver Asiatic
January 24, 2020
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Predatory behaviour. KF
I do not understand. How does it relate to "fitness"? (I am on your side!). I just want to understand how our Evo- friends explain this: If I kill my offspring: - Does it increse "fitness"? - Or does it decrease "fitness"?Truthfreedom
January 24, 2020
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TF, predatory behaviour. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2020
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, used to dehumanise the unborn child, and to undermine morality. They used to explicitly appeal to the recapitulationist icon to make it seem that the child in the womb is in effect not yet human. Now, it will be a lot less explicit. KF
Hi Kairosfocus. What I meant to ask was: - How does abortion relate to "fitness"? Does abortion increase or decresae "fitness"?Truthfreedom
January 24, 2020
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TF, used to dehumanise the unborn child, and to undermine morality. They used to explicitly appeal to the recapitulationist icon to make it seem that the child in the womb is in effect not yet human. Now, it will be a lot less explicit. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2020
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