Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

YEC, facts and evidence

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

This post was originally written as a response to Barry’s recent post; however, Barry correctly pointed out that I had significantly mis-read him – I was reading much too fast. Apologies to Barry, and to those who read the earlier version of the post. I have now re-written it to not refer to (my careless misreading of) Barry’s position. I hope it still provides something helpful.

As a YEC, when listening to opposing positions, I sometimes hear a combination of criticism of the YEC framework, combined with talk of logic and evidence as an alternative to having an interpretative framework. This is philosophically very naive. It is talk which is especially prominent amongst the New Atheist crowd. Listening to them, you get to understand that they (alone!) are the exponents of logic and evidence; everybody else is blinded by their religion (which we might call, their ‘interpretative framework’). The reality is that everybody has an interpretative framework. The only difference is the degrees to which you are a) aware of it and b) consistent with it.

As a YEC, I believe that the correct use of logic is to honour God, who is the source and ultimate, perfect, exemplification of logic. He is a God of order and structure, and wishes his creation to be orderly and structured too. God is the ultimate grounding for logic. To frame the issue in terms of “these guys have an interpretative framework… whereas I use logic and evidence” is a statement right out of the phrase-book of positivism and scientism which should have no place on the side of those of us who oppose both of those as false and busted philosophies. We all have interpretative frameworks. Logic and evidence do whatever work they do, for all of us, within one of those frameworks.

This is not to retreat into a postmodern relativism – not all frameworks are equal, and neither can we simply abandon discussion and comparison of them as if they were all equally valid, or if comparison were impossible. Frameworks can easily be fundamentally false. Someone may believe that the YEC paradigm (which is, at root, that the Bible is the final authority, and that the correct interpretation of any one part of the Bible is provided by other parts of the Bible) is false; but he cannot simply say that it is false because some pile of uninterpreted evidence proves it to be so. There is no uninterpreted evidence. This would be to make the beginner’s mistake of believing that your framework is so obviously true, that it needs no explanation – that which counts as evidence within that framework ought to be evidence for all, because, hey, it’s just evidence!

In an earlier post on UD, I provided the beginnings of an explanation as to why I embrace the framework that I, as a YEC, do. This teases out some of these issues at greater length. On the issue of starlight and time, I am not a specialist, but have written on the reasons why simplistic appeals to uninterpreted evidence do not work on my own personal blog, here.

I’d like also to note in passing that one of the most common appeals to “simple evidence” isn’t quite as simple as it seems. It’s commonly accepted that the edge of the observable universe is approximately around 45 billion light years away; whilst the age is accepted as around 15 billion light years. That’s a 30 billion year difference. The difference in those two figures is explained within the Big Bang paradigm via the expansion of the universe itself. But, when you are in a context where that paradigm itself is being disputed, an appeal to it as the basis for interpreting your evidence is viciously circular. Personally, I see no logical or philosophical problem in appealing to a sequence of unique, extraordinary and unrepeatable events in creation week, and no ultimate conceptual difference compared with appealing to a sequence of such events in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang. The debate is not over to whether there were such events; just which ones. But keep your eyes on the ball: my point here is not to argue that this or that explanation is wrong, or that no plausible solution exists; I am not a cosmologist. Rather, it’s to point out that some kind of explanation is needed, and that explanation will need to rely on further assumptions, which may themselves be open to question. The evidence needed some interpreting, and plenty of nuance. The evidence is complex, not simple, and even in this ‘canonical’ example we can begin to see that.

Returning from that diversion to the basic and underlying issues, if you’ve got time to get your teeth into something longer, then this presentation from 6 years ago, whilst addressing a different audience, is less ad-hoc than my blog posts.

This all makes the debate more complex. Rather than being able to simply pose ‘logic/evidence versus interpretative frameworks’, you have to instead articulate more of your own framework, and to think about how to compare different frameworks, in ways that don’t simply beg the question. I don’t propose to do that now; but if we can at least consider these preliminary points, then it’ll be a good step towards mutual understanding in the camp.

Comments
The essence of time is change of relationship between two (or more) objects or properties. How does a “simple” and “timeless” being create objects that are not part of itself, such that it can relate to them, AND yet remain timeless? Meaningless.
Is time a physical property of the universe or an illusion? If it's a physical property, then timelessness might be, from THAT experience, meaningless (if not just a problematic concept) within physical realities. It could be that timelessness exists in a nonphysical reality and is to us incomprehensible. e.g. A 3rd dimension is incomprehensible to a 2 dimensional being. If time is just an illusion, then your statement about meaninglessness of a timeless reality would be automatically meaningless.JGuy
October 27, 2013
October
10
Oct
27
27
2013
08:09 PM
8
08
09
PM
PDT
FWIW, I don't believe in a "timeless" reality. I don't know what it means. What does it mean to say a "timeless being" creates and/or interacts with a time-based system? I find that when I hear people talking about such things, nothing in particular registers in my thinking. The essence of time is change of relationship between two (or more) objects or properties. How does a "simple" and "timeless" being create objects that are not part of itself, such that it can relate to them, AND yet remain timeless? Meaningless. The Classic God idea is bunk.CentralScrutinizer
October 27, 2013
October
10
Oct
27
27
2013
10:42 AM
10
10
42
AM
PDT
Paul Giem:
The second comment also goes back to Augustine. In #7, Mung states, "I don’t understand why it took God six days. Couldn’t he have just said “let it be so” and “poof” there everything was all at one instant?" Mung, you will be encouraged to know that Augustine asked the same thing. It seemed to him that a perfect God had to act instantly; otherwise the creation on days 1-5 (or is it 1-6?) would be imperfect, as it still needed finishing touches, and God, being perfect, couldn’t do anything imperfect. Of course, that’s not the way the Genesis account reads. After several creative acts, the text says wayyar’ ‘elohim ky tob (And God saw that it was good). Then on day six, it says that wayyar’ ‘elohim ky tob me’od (and God saw that it was very good, implying degrees of goodness. Apparently, all that God does, does not have to be perfect at every stage, at least in the Platonic way of defining perfection.
My question was rhetorical, and tjguy basically provided the answer. The "creation week" was patterned after "the sabbatic week." Unless, of course, Moses was not the author of the book of Genesis or Leviticus.
Of course, that’s not the way the Genesis account reads.
So Augustine was wrong? IMO, all 'acts' of God are instantaneous. God does not engage in 'planning' if by planning we mean "the process of thinking about and organizing the activities required to achieve a desired goal."Mung
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
08:39 PM
8
08
39
PM
PDT
To all my YEC brethren. I often propose questions that in my mind are rhetorical. They invite you to think. They invite you to consider what sorts of assumptions you're making. They point that that Young Earth Creationism is based upon a certain hermeneutics of Scripture to which all else (including science) is subjected. They point out that your "literal" interpretations are not all that literal. And that your "science" is not therefore all that "scientific." This is a major disconnect between ID and YEC. Most of us in the ID camp allow for following the evidence where it leads. In the YEC camp, the evidence can only lead to one conclusion.Mung
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
08:25 PM
8
08
25
PM
PDT
Since Young Earth Creationism is obviously true, if one is to believe anything at all in the Bible, what has evidence got to do with it? Unless Young Earth Creationism is true, Jesus never existed. Unless Young Earth Creationism is true, Jesus never died on the cross. Unless Young Earth Creationism is true, Jesus never died on the cross for our sins. Is it in fact the case that nothing in Scripture is true if Young Earth Creationism is false?Mung
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
DebianFanatic: Thanks for your post! I found it very informative and reasonable. JGuy:
Were plants in epoch/’day’ 3 waiting hundreds of millions of years for the sun in epoch 4?
I think that most OEC would not say that the sun was created on day 4. Rather, they would tend to believe that the creation of the heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1 would include the creation of the sun. From this perspective, it is the visible appearance of the sun that God causes to occur on day 4. Thus, diffused sunlight fueled photosynthesis in plants during day 3 before the sun was visible.
Also, were plants in epoch/’day’ 3 waiting an even longer time, over a billion years, for the bee’s and other pollinators of epoch 6?
Though I cannot speak for OEC and don't really self-identify as one myself, my expectation would be that the appearance of bees and other pollinators on day 6 would allow plants to expand and diversify beyond merely relying on wind for pollination. In a similar way, I imagine that the appearance of insects allowed the birds of day 5 to expand and diversify into insect-eaters.Phinehas
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
05:13 PM
5
05
13
PM
PDT
JGuy, Some OECs, like me, don't think Genesis has anything at all to do with the actual creation. There are a lot of Jews and Catholics who see it the way I do. So I would not say OECs typically try to harmonize Genesis with reality. More often than not, they don't (in my experience.)CentralScrutinizer
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
Also, were plants in epoch/’day’ 3 waiting an even longer time, over a billion years, for the bee's and other pollinators of epoch 6? :PJGuy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
01:46 PM
1
01
46
PM
PDT
Were plants in epoch/'day' 3 waiting hundreds of millions of years for the sun in epoch 4?JGuy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
01:43 PM
1
01
43
PM
PDT
another correct to my post @ 95 Adam apparently sinned after the sixth day, but before his son Cain was born. Seth was born after Cain when Adam was 130 years old. So, in the hypothetical epoch day scenario, that would put Adam being created within 129 years of the seventh epoch (disregarding the age Cain lived before he killed Abel). That is ~699,999,871 years gone by and 129 years max left for Adam to the seventh epoch. So, Adam was created no earlier than: 23rd hour 59th minute 59.984th second. (even closer if we could factor in Cains age) I know, what's a tenth of a second when it's already that close. :PJGuy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
01:06 PM
1
01
06
PM
PDT
correction: "figures used are [NOT] meant to be accurate"JGuy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
12:45 PM
12
12
45
PM
PDT
Question for OEC: OEC typically believe that the days in creation week were actually ages. Probably, with a low of 700 million years to 2 billion years average per 'day'. Here are some fact wells established by scripture: Adam was created on the sixth day of creation week. Adam was the first literal man. Adam lived 930 years. Adam apparently did not sin or die on the sixth day. ----- So, if one hold that the creation days are not earth days, but rather extremely long epochs... Then Adam either died in the seventh day/epoch, or after the seventh epoch. But if the seventh epoch was like the other epochs, it would last as long as the average 700 hundred million years (the minimum average vice 2 billion years). In that case, Adam could not have died AFTER the seventh epoch, since he lived only 930 years in comparison to the immense duration of the average epoch. So, for OEC to be consistent, they must argue that Adam died in the seventh epoch. And perhaps, hold that the present time is still the seventh epoch. Anyway, here is a descriptive map of the sixth day. ~699,999,071 years pass into the sixth day, then man is created in the last 929 years (earliest) - figures used are meant to be accurate, but close enough for a perspective of proportions. If the epoch were proportioned to a 24 hour day, then man was created at about the 23rd hour 59th minute 59.89th second. Is this a fair/rough description of the position of the OEC reading this?JGuy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
12:41 PM
12
12
41
PM
PDT
(1) It seems to me that if one takes the Bible as a unit, written by one author working through tens of agents over hundreds of years, then the Bible does indeed indicate that the early chapters of Genesis are to be read mostly literal and that the days of Genesis 1 are literal solar periods (e.g. Gen 6-9; Ex 20:7; Matt 19:4; Isa 45:18; Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:45ff). It's not just Genesis that must be considered. But even in Genesis 1, it's hard to get away from the definition of a day as being one period of dark and light. As I understand it, there is no other Hebrew word that is more precise than "yom' for "day", so one must look to the context, and the Biblical context as a whole leans heavily toward the Genesis days being literal days. On the other hand, if one takes the Bible as a man-collected set of various works, then one has less compulsion to let one part of the Bible inform another part, and more freedom to dismiss the early chapters of Genesis as something other than literal history. (2) With the discovery only in this last century of ancient clay tablets from the Middle East, similarities have been found between these ancient documents and the structure of Genesis, such that it now begins to appear that Moses used ancient documents as his source material for Genesis, basically stitching together discrete individual family records into a coherent storyline. This "Tablet Theory" (or "Wiseman Hypothesis") differs from the Documentary (or JEDP) Hypothesis in that the latter has Genesis being a "melting pot" of various traditions over centuries, whereas the former has Genesis being a deliberate collection of intact ancient records into a cohesive whole. In this Tablet Theory, Genesis One and Genesis Two are indeed two separate creation accounts, but the first chapter is from God's viewpoint, perhaps written by God's very finger (number of fingers on the hand notwithstanding) and given to Adam, whereas the next few chapters are Adam's record. Attached to each patriarch's record is a "toledoth" - "these are the records of Adam", "these are the records of Noah"; "these are the records of Seth", etc. The nearer to Moses' time, the more detailed the records get. We even find the word "book" attached to the end of Adam's record, in Genesis 5:1 (although not all English translations make that clear) - "This is the book of the generations of Adam" (ESV). This is just like in other places of the Bible wherein the compiler cites his source code (e.g. Josh 10:13; 1 Chron 29:29). We even see that the records of a certain patriarch cover the events which that patriarch would know about, but not about other events outside of that partriarch's life. For example, after Jacob reunites with his brother Esau after decades of absence, Jacob's story takes a brief break to fill the reader in on the family tree of Esau, introduced by the phrase, "These are the family records of Esau" (Gen 36:1 HCSB). Some of the variations in the Flood story may be a result of Moses compiling the remembrances of four different witnesses (Noah and his three sons) into one story (Gen 6:1 & 10:1), just as four witnesses to a traffic accident will give varying details to their accounts, or as four witnesses to the life of Jesus give varying details (a much stronger mark of authenticity than four identical accounts, which would indicate collusion or mere copying). Likewise the variances in the two creation accounts - one from God's perspective, one from Adam's. If this theory is correct, we have actual written records dating all the way back to the creation period, the first of which may be from the Creator himself - "These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation at the time that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens" (Gen 2:4). (3) It is my understanding that the ancient age of the earth is founded on a uniformitarian view of the rocks on the earth's surface, and that the radiometric dating is merely icing upon that interpretive framework. In other words, the geological ages are not determined by radiometric dating, but rather by the assumption of evolution applied to piecing together this strata with that strata using these assumptions. When radiometric dating is used, it's more of a "well, this date fits, so we'll publish it as 'proof' of the age we already 'know'". When a rock is to be dated, the method used will be determined by the results desired. This makes sense - you wouldn't measure the length of an inchworm with a yardstick, nor the weight of the Titanic with a postage scale. But it belies the assumptive nature of radiometric dating. This is why mainstream geologists don't look for carbon-14 in diamonds - it shouldn't be there. And yet, it is. When you look more rigorously at how the old age of the earth is derived, you discover that the methods are not nearly as rigorous as the party line would insist you believe. (4) In looking at the age of the Earth, a global flood is out of the question within mainstream thinking. Yet the Bible insists that a global flood occurred. If the Bible is correct on this point, then the mainstream thinking of geological history is completely worthless. Any interpretation of earth history which denies a global flood is suspect. And to me, I just don't see how a geologist can deny a global flood when they see continent-wide scouring all over the world, followed by continent-wide sedimentation processes (""widespread continental denudation during the Neoproterozoic followed by extensive physical reworking of soil, regolith and basement rock during the first continental-scale marine transgression of the Phanerozoic." - http://crev.info/2013/10/global-flood-ok-if-proposed-by-evolutionists/). The old earth view is dependent on there not having been a global flood. I believe that view is faulty.DebianFanatic
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
08:40 AM
8
08
40
AM
PDT
tjguy @ 90
Mung @ 74
How many fingers per hand does God have?
Good point. God has none. This is figurative language because God is a spirit, but the point remains unchanged. God wrote this Himself, not Moses.
God is spirit, but Jesus is God made flesh (John 1:14). And Jesus has fingers. So, a literal view is not a problem in that regard. Unless, the scripture says otherwise. Moses, it seems, could have encountered a theophany in Jesus on top of and/or in the smoke on Mt Sinai. So, my answer to Mung, five! :D ... Flashback: Genesis 3:8 "They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden."JGuy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
05:27 AM
5
05
27
AM
PDT
Central @ 70 This is your view of the Bible:
I reject “the Bible” as “one book” handed down from God from “on high.” I consider it a collection of writings from various authors, with various motives, and various levels of credibility. I think there are good things therein, and some downright nonsense.
Well sure, God used human authors to write the books in the Bible, but they are all inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore trustworthy and authoritative. Central, in essence, you do the same thing as Mapou - set yourself up as Judge over God's Word deciding what to accept as true and what looks like nonsense and needs to be rejected. So I'm not sure why you were questioning his views here. Do you ever allow God's Word to correct you or do you always sit in judgment of God's Word and reject it when you/ scientists / anthropologists / sociologists / psychologists / etc. disagree with it or claim it is wrong? Once you lower your view of God's Word, then sure, why be a YECer? There is no need. Human wisdom, knowledge, & science is surely more trustworthy that the Bible - if it is the kind of book you think it is. But if it is, how do you know that anything in the Bible is true? When you set yourself or other fallible fallen and finite men up over God's Word as Judge, you reduce the Bible to just another book among millions in the world. It loses all authority.tjguy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
04:51 AM
4
04
51
AM
PDT
Central @ 70
As for you, do you claim to not “pick and choose?” Are you saying that you don’t pick the Bible over the Qur’an or the Bhagavad Gita?
He believes whatever he wants to believe
So do you. That you pick the Bible over other putative “words of God” doesn’t make you any different.
which is fine of course, but that method renders the Bible meaningless by making it subject to the “wisdom” of fallible finite fallen man.
And somehow you are infallible in your choice of which words to accept as the “words of God”?
Central, I hope you can see the flaw in your reasoning here. Yes, I pick and choose from among the religious books of the world, but I don't pick and choose from within the book I have chosen. That is because I believe the Bible, the whole Bible, to be God's Word. Am I infallible in my choice? No, but I believe God is infallible in what He says and that is why I believe the Bible. But Mapou, he only thinks it is a research tool. So, with a low view of the Bible like that, he can feel free to elevate himself above it and act as Judge upon it. He can justify picking and choosing whatever he wants. He decides what is true and what is false. The Bible says though that there is only one Law giver and Judge and that is God meaning that we are to submit to the Law that God gives us. James 4:12 Central, do you think this is what God intended when He gave us the Bible? The Bible was given to teach, reprove, correct, train & equip us, and reveal God to us. If we pick and choose what we want to believe and discard, we are making up our own God and have no rational basis for what we believe outside of personal preference. Personal preferences of a finite fallen human are sure to be a far cry from the truth! For that very reason, so that we can know what the truth is, God gave us the Bible. Isn't that how you understand it?tjguy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
04:09 AM
4
04
09
AM
PDT
Mung @ 74
How many fingers per hand does God have?
Good point. God has none. This is figurative language because God is a spirit, but the point remains unchanged. God wrote this Himself, not Moses.tjguy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
03:49 AM
3
03
49
AM
PDT
CentralScrutinizer @ 82
However, with regards to basic physics, i.e, the speed of light, the mass of an electron, etc, I have to assume that they are constant and have been such since the Beginning. Christians should agree. For how could Paul’s appeals to the creation as a testimony to God’s agency be of any value if the nature of things were subject to change? Where is the solid bedrock from which to make an assessment? If the basic physical framework of the universe has not been constant, we have no basis for any judgements about it.
Psalm 102 25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. ---- Romans 8 (Paul) 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.JGuy
October 26, 2013
October
10
Oct
26
26
2013
02:59 AM
2
02
59
AM
PDT
Wow! this thread (and the previous one) just keeps expanding. It's hard to keep up. First, I would like to thank Barry Arrington, and especially StephenB, for their consideration of Young Earth Creationism. Yes, you both said some things that rubbed some creationists the wrong way. We creationists then need thicker skin, and more empathy. What did we expect, to have Barry and Stephen to say that the scientific evidence supported us? Then they would be YEC's too, wouldn''t they. Give them a break. Second, the most difficult to answer question for many YEC's is that of distant starlight. There are 5 different ways to deal with this that I know of. 1. God created the starlight in place. We just think we are seeing galaxies. There does not seem to be any testable way to determine the truth or falsity of such a premise. I personally have trouble with it. 2. There is a process that allows light to slow down with time. This idea is currently most closely associated with Barry Setterfield. It is a fascinating theory, but at present unfortunately makes no testable predictions that are different from standard theory. I have a little less trouble with it, but am not willing to endorse it at this time. 3. The universe and earth have different time scales. The universe looks old because it is old, but the earth is still only some 6,000 years old. Again, this makes no obvious or stated predictions that are not true for standard cosmology, once you get outside the solar system. It is a little more attractive. 4. The rest of the universe is old, but life on earth is young. The earth itself may be either old our young, but if old, on the first day of creation week, it was covered with water. There are three subtypes: old earth, young life (YLEC), old solar system, young earth (and life), and young solar system. I find the last most attractive, but have changed my mind before and could again. It is important to realize that YEC does not necessarily mean YUC (young universe creationism). This set of proposals is not disturbed by the starlight problem. 5. Life on earth is old. There are multiple variations on this theme. All of them appear to require death before human sin, and see radiometric dating as their chief support. I find radiometric dating not to be that convincing, partly because carbon-14 dating (an area that I have personally worked in) seems to point in the opposite direction, partly because of JGuy's (#68) point number 4, and partly because of inconsistencies in their use. See the appendix to Marvin Lubenow's book Bones of Contention, describing the circus around the dating of Skull 1470, for one example. See the redating of Triassic shore bird tracks, which had originally been dating by the most advanced variation on potassium-argon dating, argon-argon dating (along with an index fossil!) when it became apparent that they really were shore birds and not bird-like dinosaurs. Apparently radiometric dating only counts when it gives the "right" answers. And finally, note that radiometric dating can apparently speed up or slow down for currently unknown reasons. Two other observations. In #3, shader gives an argument that can be traced back at least to Augustine. He says,
I’ve met many YEC’s who believe that day 4 is when the actual sun was created. Yet what is a day? A day is the length of time it takes for the earth to rotate a full revolution, and logically requires the sun for this measurement
But does it? For Augustine, who believed in a round but stationary earth, it made no sense for the light from the first day to go around the earth. But with modern solar system theory, if God started out creating unidirectional light, it would automatically create day and night as the earth turned. So a day does not "logically require the sun for this measurement", contrary to the objection. The second comment also goes back to Augustine. In #7, Mung states,
I don’t understand why it took God six days. Couldn’t he have just said “let it be so” and “poof” there everything was all at one instant?
Mung, you will be encouraged to know that Augustine asked the same thing. It seemed to him that a perfect God had to act instantly; otherwise the creation on days 1-5 (or is it 1-6?) would be imperfect, as it still needed finishing touches, and God, being perfect, couldn't do anything imperfect. Of course, that's not the way the Genesis account reads. After several creative acts, the text says wayyar' 'elohim ky tob (And God saw that it was good). Then on day six, it says that wayyar' 'elohim ky tob me'od (and God saw that it was very good, implying degrees of goodness. Apparently, all that God does, does not have to be perfect at every stage, at least in the Platonic way of defining perfection.Paul Giem
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
10:34 PM
10
10
34
PM
PDT
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. .... Question for Old Earth Creationist: Does the above mean we must work for six ages or six million years, before we can finally rest? :/JGuy
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
06:50 PM
6
06
50
PM
PDT
Sounds like a Biblical basis for uniformitarianism to me!
2 Peter 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” And this sounds like people relying on uniformitarianism, but forgetting about the flood/catastrophe. :) I'm not opposed to using uniformitarian methods in sceince. Just relying on them as a final authority, especially when I find literal earth days as the plain, to me, from reading scripture. And I do think, as I said above, that the Christian faith at least has the, perhaps the only, basis for thinking there is a uniformity of nature. But this doesn't mean things can't change at some level... e.g. floods can change the appearance of things...and planetary rotation can slow down... etc.. density of space/time may vary some as you go deeper or further away from the earth. How might this affect the speed of light in deep space? or The rate time appears to tick in deep space, far from earth? etc...JGuy
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
06:39 PM
6
06
39
PM
PDT
Mung:
My point is that young earth creationism relies upon ad hoc rationalizations. You actually appear to agree with me. So lets take another tack. What would a 6,000 year old universe, earth, and history of life look like? If you can’t say, then how do you say this or that observation is consistent or inconsistent with a creation event of six literal days 6,000 years ago? And how would it be tested?
There are two things going on here on how old something looks. In one aspect, by experience, we can know how old something looks by looking at it - if it's within the duration of our life experience. We can say a person looks old, or a house because we know what old houses and people look like. And we can often guess the ages of each within a decade or two of accuracy. But we don't know what old rocks look like from experience. Yet, even these can be wrong. Never-the-less, in that sense of how old something looks, pretty much everyone has that ability. Then there is the how old something looks based on assumptions and deductions. And those are typically uniformitarian assumptions. This is also accessible by all people - including young earth creationists such as myself. :) So, if we assume uniformitarian measures, then anyone can say how old something "looks" (measures) in that sense. But that really does nothing for us, but tell us what uniformitarian assumptions lead to in a calculation. So, as far as anyone knows, that I know of, there are only two ways people can attempt to know how old something is outside of the duration of their experience: (1) historical records (relies on trustworthy witness) (2) "clocks" (relies on uniformitarian assumptions) But only (1) is reliable, if the witness was there and is trustworthy of the facts. As for ad hoc rationalizations. YEC do not rely just-so explanations. YEC primarily rely on the bible. My guess is that YEC generally arrive at their postion from one of either two ways. 1. They find the literal nature of the Genesis creation account as compelling, and rely on scripture as a guide. 2. They were either indifferent about the age of the earth or OEC that finally realized the contradictions when using ALL of the uniformitarian "clocks". That is, they did not rely on just clocks that agreed with OEC paradigm, but considered all. And found a uniformitarian framework is self refuting for reliability. That said, there are some uniformitarian clocks that do or would give ages suggesting 6000 years. e.g. Helium Diffusion in Zircons - to a high degree. Mitochondrial Eve - when using fast observed mutation rates. So, it's easy for a YEC to hold his/her position and consider his/her position as more consistent. Especially, if the rendering of the scripture best rads literal - which I'd argue does. A final note: In the current scientific climate, dominated by old earth views, I find it exciting knowing that the very risky young earth paradigm is only found to be of the Christian faith. So, when/if the world of physics is rocked by the right new discovery or revelation... :)JGuy
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
06:28 PM
6
06
28
PM
PDT
The eternal Son not only created all things by His omnipotent Word (Psalm 33:6; Hebrews 11:3) but is now “upholding all things by the Word of His power.”
http://www.icr.org/books/defenders/8271/
I will not dishonor my covenant, because I will not change what I have spoken.
Sounds like a Biblical basis for uniformitarianism to me! :)Mung
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
03:58 PM
3
03
58
PM
PDT
JGuy:
I’m not certain it’s even possible to make a confident conclusion on a specific ages of the earth based on analysis of the world around us – whether it be 6kyo or 4.6byo or some other number.
My point is that young earth creationism relies upon ad hoc rationalizations. You actually appear to agree with me. So lets take another tack. What would a 6,000 year old universe, earth, and history of life look like? If you can't say, then how do you say this or that observation is consistent or inconsistent with a creation event of six literal days 6,000 years ago? And how would it be tested?Mung
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PDT
jguy, "Uniformitarianism" by itself is an imprecise term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism However, with regards to basic physics, i.e, the speed of light, the mass of an electron, etc, I have to assume that they are constant and have been such since the Beginning. Christians should agree. For how could Paul's appeals to the creation as a testimony to God's agency be of any value if the nature of things were subject to change? Where is the solid bedrock from which to make an assessment? If the basic physical framework of the universe has not been constant, we have no basis for any judgements about it. I predict you'll say something like: the sure foundation of the assessment is in the Bible. But that assumes you're wise enough to understand the Bible properly, even assuming it is "the word of God." The bottom line is, we all have to search and do the best we can with the evidence, experience, and psychological baggage that we have. If there's a God, he's judge me in due time. I'm in his merciful hands. Now, while your bothering about all that, be sure to remember to love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on that. It's the Prime Directive... that is, if you believe Jesus was the Messiah.CentralScrutinizer
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
03:23 PM
3
03
23
PM
PDT
CentralScrutinizer @ 79 Fine enough, you didn't say that exactly or explicitly... ...but if the basis for your claim - that OEC then is more consistent - is not from it's high reliance on the uniformitarian framework, then on what other interpretive framework is OEC more internally consistent? ..or.. Why would one choose OEC if it wasn't that one had the view that things appeared old. And how does one come to that view , of things appearing old, without an appeal to uniformitarianism?JGuy
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
12:17 PM
12
12
17
PM
PDT
mung @ 57 "How much time did God spend planning the Creation?" It is not possible for God to spend time.suckerspawn
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
12:04 PM
12
12
04
PM
PDT
JGuy @76: It was in response to CentralScrutinizer’s position that the uniformitarian framework was more consistent and coherent.
Where did I say that uniformitarianism was more consistent? I said OEC is more consistent than YEC. OEC is not the same thing as uniformitarianism.CentralScrutinizer
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
Shader @ 69 I don't actually make it a major point with fellow Christians on the age of the earth. Christian brothers I know and respect are old earthers, on the fence or indifferent on that topic. But I am persuaded that the scripture reads literal days. You can call it an opinion if you like. And I would change my position if it was clearly figurative, but it doesn't come off to me that way at all. Yet, I won't judge you or any other Christians that think it's figurative. I don't feel God is constrained to a literal earth day at all. Just like I don't think God is constrained to billions of years. I never suggested that there was a constraint - in fact, I think I alluded to the opposite in one of my above comments. Regarding being dogmatic, I will accept whatever the bible reads on this matter and stick to it, regardless of pure uniformitarian 'clocks'. Call it dogmatic if you like, I'd prefer to call it believing what God appears to have revealed. Besides, the uniformitarian methods don't have the consistency you imagine. Consider more closely the problems I noted in one of the above comments. All that said. I think Christian worldview, in general, gives us reason to believe there is a uniformity of nature. This doesn't mean we must be dogmatic with things that people call constants. Especially with catastrophism playing a role in nature. Furthermore, we already know things promoted by uniformitarian models can change... e.g. radioactive decay rates can be influenced to be faster.JGuy
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT
Mung @ 74. Yeah, there are those extremophiles and/or their slimy cousins. But I still wouldn't bring a fishing pole with me if I went to visit the Dead Sea.JGuy
October 25, 2013
October
10
Oct
25
25
2013
10:05 AM
10
10
05
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply