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YEC, facts and evidence

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This post was originally written as a response to Barry’s recent post; however, Barry correctly pointed out that I had significantly mis-read him – I was reading much too fast. Apologies to Barry, and to those who read the earlier version of the post. I have now re-written it to not refer to (my careless misreading of) Barry’s position. I hope it still provides something helpful.

As a YEC, when listening to opposing positions, I sometimes hear a combination of criticism of the YEC framework, combined with talk of logic and evidence as an alternative to having an interpretative framework. This is philosophically very naive. It is talk which is especially prominent amongst the New Atheist crowd. Listening to them, you get to understand that they (alone!) are the exponents of logic and evidence; everybody else is blinded by their religion (which we might call, their ‘interpretative framework’). The reality is that everybody has an interpretative framework. The only difference is the degrees to which you are a) aware of it and b) consistent with it.

As a YEC, I believe that the correct use of logic is to honour God, who is the source and ultimate, perfect, exemplification of logic. He is a God of order and structure, and wishes his creation to be orderly and structured too. God is the ultimate grounding for logic. To frame the issue in terms of “these guys have an interpretative framework… whereas I use logic and evidence” is a statement right out of the phrase-book of positivism and scientism which should have no place on the side of those of us who oppose both of those as false and busted philosophies. We all have interpretative frameworks. Logic and evidence do whatever work they do, for all of us, within one of those frameworks.

This is not to retreat into a postmodern relativism – not all frameworks are equal, and neither can we simply abandon discussion and comparison of them as if they were all equally valid, or if comparison were impossible. Frameworks can easily be fundamentally false. Someone may believe that the YEC paradigm (which is, at root, that the Bible is the final authority, and that the correct interpretation of any one part of the Bible is provided by other parts of the Bible) is false; but he cannot simply say that it is false because some pile of uninterpreted evidence proves it to be so. There is no uninterpreted evidence. This would be to make the beginner’s mistake of believing that your framework is so obviously true, that it needs no explanation – that which counts as evidence within that framework ought to be evidence for all, because, hey, it’s just evidence!

In an earlier post on UD, I provided the beginnings of an explanation as to why I embrace the framework that I, as a YEC, do. This teases out some of these issues at greater length. On the issue of starlight and time, I am not a specialist, but have written on the reasons why simplistic appeals to uninterpreted evidence do not work on my own personal blog, here.

I’d like also to note in passing that one of the most common appeals to “simple evidence” isn’t quite as simple as it seems. It’s commonly accepted that the edge of the observable universe is approximately around 45 billion light years away; whilst the age is accepted as around 15 billion light years. That’s a 30 billion year difference. The difference in those two figures is explained within the Big Bang paradigm via the expansion of the universe itself. But, when you are in a context where that paradigm itself is being disputed, an appeal to it as the basis for interpreting your evidence is viciously circular. Personally, I see no logical or philosophical problem in appealing to a sequence of unique, extraordinary and unrepeatable events in creation week, and no ultimate conceptual difference compared with appealing to a sequence of such events in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang. The debate is not over to whether there were such events; just which ones. But keep your eyes on the ball: my point here is not to argue that this or that explanation is wrong, or that no plausible solution exists; I am not a cosmologist. Rather, it’s to point out that some kind of explanation is needed, and that explanation will need to rely on further assumptions, which may themselves be open to question. The evidence needed some interpreting, and plenty of nuance. The evidence is complex, not simple, and even in this ‘canonical’ example we can begin to see that.

Returning from that diversion to the basic and underlying issues, if you’ve got time to get your teeth into something longer, then this presentation from 6 years ago, whilst addressing a different audience, is less ad-hoc than my blog posts.

This all makes the debate more complex. Rather than being able to simply pose ‘logic/evidence versus interpretative frameworks’, you have to instead articulate more of your own framework, and to think about how to compare different frameworks, in ways that don’t simply beg the question. I don’t propose to do that now; but if we can at least consider these preliminary points, then it’ll be a good step towards mutual understanding in the camp.

Comments
p.s. The salinity puts an upper limit on the age of the ocean. Not a specific age or lower limit. Young earth model has the global flood (with more turbulent and warmer waters) to account for increased salinity since the original creation ~6000yo.JGuy
October 25, 2013
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Mung @ 73
How does this argue for a 6,000 year old earth?
I'm not certain it's even possible to make a confident conclusion on a specific ages of the earth based on analysis of the world around us - whether it be 6kyo or 4.6byo or some other number. The point in referencing the salinity levels indicates - using a uniformitarian measure - that things aren't AS OLD as the old earth paradigm asserts. It was in response to CentralScrutinizer's position that the uniformitarian framework was more consistent and coherent. Indeed, he said all frameworks have problems. But I'm arguing that the old earth framework has more problems. It needs to explain more uniformitarian clocks that are problematic to the paradigm than the young earth paradigm. Thus, all other things being equal among creationists, it seems the young earth framework wins at being more consistent. Not to mention that it's more consistent with a creation account that reads more literal than figurative.JGuy
October 25, 2013
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New Life-Forms Found at Bottom of Dead SeaMung
October 25, 2013
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JGuy:
Current salinity levels indicate oceans are less than 62 million years old. If it were a billion years old, there would be no life in it, it would be too toxic.
How does this argue for a 6,000 year old earth?Mung
October 25, 2013
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... but God wrote with his own finger in the rock He gave to Moses that He created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested the 7th.
How many fingers per hand does God have?Mung
October 25, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer:
What makes you think there is more than one of these “spirits” that has the ability to “create brains” without having a brain? I.e, what makes you think there is more than one “Most High God”?
Yahweh is the big Kahuna, the God of all Gods. He said so himself. He said that the other Gods all came after him. And we've all read how the Gods (Elohim) of Egypt had a certain amount of creative powers. They could turn sticks into serpents and water into blood, among other things. The Bible acknowledged that there were many other Gods besides Yahweh. It seems that the Gods came down to earth and picked different nations for themselves. Yahweh chose the house of Israel. Yahweh was a jealous God and he was apparently very hurt when the people Israel turned their affection toward the Gods of the Assyrians. It is very clear that the Gods looked at the nations of the world as men look at women. They wanted wives. It was definitely a sexual/love thing to them. They think we're hot. :-) It's in the Bible. Yahweh eventually divorced the house of Israel but remained married to the house of Judah.Mapou
October 25, 2013
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tjguy: Central, this is the result of not allowing God’s Word to have its rightful place in his life. Mappou [sic] says he views the Bible as a research tool, not as God’s truth like Jesus teaches. So this allows him to pick and choose what he likes and dislikes.
Well, I'll let Mapou answer for himself. As for you, do you claim to not "pick and choose?" Are you saying that you don't pick the Bible over the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita?
He believes whatever he wants to believe
So do you. That you pick the Bible over other putative "words of God" doesn't make you any different.
which is fine of course, but that method renders the Bible meaningless by making it subject to the “wisdom” of fallible finite fallen man.
And somehow you are infallible in your choice of which words to accept as the "words of God"?CentralScrutinizer
October 25, 2013
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jguy, the point is that you are being dogmatic. There is no need for that. I personally have no idea how old the earth is. It could be 6k like you believe, it could be billions of years old. Either case doesn't really affect the bible in any way. The bible is full of figurative language and full of literal language. It is my OPINION that the use of the word "day" in Genesis is figurative. Just as the sun doesn't literally set, the day doesn't have to literally be 24 hours. There are many reasons for this, which I have outlined above. I could probably go on and on, but it doesn't seem you are going to do anything but dogmatically stick to the beliefs you feel you must. The point is that when all of science seems to point to the earth and especially the universe being older than 6k years old, does it really hurt to say "possibly so"? Why the need for drama when the bible doesn't require it? If God revealed to you in some way that the word day/evening/morning were not 100% literal, what would you do? You'd realize that you wasted a lot of effort debating and studying something that really doesn't matter that much. It makes perfect sense to me, that God wouldn't be constrained by an "earth day" while he was creating the earth. But maybe I'm wrong. I certainly admit that is a possibility. I think you are wasting your time, to be honest, over something that isn't all that important, when compared to the rest of the bible.shader
October 25, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer @ 34
Which natural clocks “argue” for a younger earth? I’m sure you can find evidence that you think is more consistent with a YEC view. However, for me what’s important is the consistency and coherence of all the available evidence. No paradigm is without its difficulties. But (naturally) I think the one I hold presently is the best one.
I'll give you six here, one for each literal earth day of creation activity :): 1. Salinity of Oceans. With a net input of salt into the oceans via rivers, coastal runoff, hydro-thermal vents, submarine volcanoes for a billion years. Why is the ocean not as salty as the dead sea? Current salinity levels indicate oceans are less than 62 million years old. If it were a billion years old, there would be no life in it, it would be too toxic. http://creation.com/salty-seas-evidence-for-a-young-earth 2. Erosion. One analysis indicate conservative erosion rates would level continents in 50 million years. Why are continents not eroded to sea level? It can't be due to uplift, since fossils of land creatures (e.g. dinosaurs) are radio-isotope dated to ~70 million years ago. http://www.icr.org/articles/view/6309/264/ 3. Receding Moon. The moon recedes from earth. If the earth moon system were a billion years old, the moon would have been in contact with the earth 1.4 billion years ago (far younger than secular theory 4.5BYO). http://creation.com/the-moons-recession-and-age http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/our-created-moon/our-created-moon 4. Helium in Zirons. Too much left over helium in zircons with uranium decay products. It should have diffused out. Why hasn't it? ...also.. Diffusion rates were predicted using a young earth model and competed against an old earth model. After diffusion rates were determined, the young earth model fit perfectly. The old earth model failed by six orders of magnitude. Why did the old model fail and the young fit perfectly? http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/41/41_1/Helium.htm 5. Dinosaur Soft Tissue Soft stretchy tissue extracted from a t-rex fossil. Still in large molecular form as evident by stretchy/elastic tissue and testing for proteins. Well understood science rejects this. Why is it there if it's 70 milion years old? http://creation.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue-and-protein-even-more-confirmation http://creation.com/still-soft-and-stretchy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbdH3l1UjPQ 6. Carbon-14 in "500MYO" Diamonds. Diamonds extracted from strata claimed to be 500 million years old are dated using Carbon-14 dating and indicate the diamonds are ~50k years old. If the earth is old, why is there carbon 14 in these diamonds? There shouldn't be even one atom of C14, and diamonds resist contamination. Bonus: The same problem is with dinosaur fossils. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/radiocarbon-in-diamonds More could be provided. The end point is this. Old earthers come up with two arguments using uniformitarian assumptions to argue against young earth. Radio-active decay and Starlight. I've provided you with six. In fact, one of the six involve radio-active decay problems. And it's important to note that most of these involve physical and chemical processes that we very well understood. In contrast, the nature of light speed and radio-active decay are not well understood. If you're concern is, as you said, 'consistency and coherence of all the available evidence', then I would not expect you to brush under the rug these inconsistencies & incoherence with the old earth paradigm. But keep them in an view as the enigmas with the old paradigm that they are.JGuy
October 25, 2013
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Mung @ 49 You said you wanted to see a review of the Privileged Planet from a YEC perspective. Here is one that you might want to check out: http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j18_3/j18_3_58-60.pdftjguy
October 25, 2013
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Eric @ 60
Then they must have been in an awful hurry if they rushed to create the Earth and everything outlined in Genesis in 6 24-hour Earth days.
Eric, this is silly. Of course God is not bound by time, but creating everything in 6 days when He could have just as easily done it all in an instant does not mean He was in a hurry. What is important here is not whether you think something is fast or slow, but what God Himself tells us. I've never heard of anyone thinking that God rushed to create the universe and it is not a fair evaluation of that point of view. Perhaps you were kind of joking, but God wrote with his own finger in the rock He gave to Moses that He created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested the 7th. This was a direct word from God - not something that Moses Himself told the people or wrote himself and it was etched in the rock there for all to see. I think they knew exactly what He meant!tjguy
October 25, 2013
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Central @ 63
What makes you think there is more than one of these “spirits” that has the ability to “create brains” without having a brain? I.e, what makes you think there is more than one “Most High God”?
Central,this is the result of not allowing God's Word to have its rightful place in his life. Mappou says he views the Bible as a research tool, not as God's truth like Jesus teaches. So this allows him to pick and choose what he likes and dislikes. He believes whatever he wants to believe, which is fine of course, but that method renders the Bible meaningless by making it subject to the "wisdom" of fallible finite fallen man. It robs the Bible of all authority and sets up the reader as the final authority. When a person's view of the Bible is messed up, this is the kind of thing that often happens. I can't understand why he even chooses to follow Jesus when he has no idea what is true or false. ID love to know on what basis he picks what to believe and what to reject. questions much of what He said. He might as well just start his own little Christian cult.tjguy
October 25, 2013
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William Murray
An honest question from a non-Christian: why should we think that the passage in Psalms is referring to the Bible, or anything in writing that existed at the time? OK, I'll give you that one. To be more precise, David's words here are referring specifically to the Mosaic Law or the first 5 books of the Bible, but the same principles apply to all of God's words as the NT reiterates.
tjguy
October 25, 2013
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<blockquote<Mapou: In my opinion, some, like Yahweh, created their own brains. Others, like Lucifer and humans, were given a brain (and body) created and designed by other Gods. The skeptics will ask, how can you create your own brain if you don’t exist yet? To which I will reply, spirits exist in the spiritual realm where nothing is created or destroyed. Some spirits have creative powers. What makes you think there is more than one of these "spirits" that has the ability to "create brains" without having a brain? I.e, what makes you think there is more than one "Most High God"?CentralScrutinizer
October 25, 2013
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Mung @ 57
How much time did God spend planning the Creation?
How do you measure time with God - an eternal being? 2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.JGuy
October 25, 2013
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Eric Anderson:
Unless, of course, one is not bound by time and can see the end from the beginning.
Which would be nonsense, in my opinion.
Then they must have been in an awful hurry if they rushed to create the Earth and everything outlined in Genesis in 6 24-hour Earth days. :) (Not saying that is your position, just pointing it out.)
It's not but it's funny the way you put it. I like it.Mapou
October 24, 2013
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The only way to find out how they turn out is to set them in motion and wait.
Unless, of course, one is not bound by time and can see the end from the beginning.
But the Gods have plenty of time on their hands.
Then they must have been in an awful hurry if they rushed to create the Earth and everything outlined in Genesis in 6 24-hour Earth days. :) (Not saying that is your position, just pointing it out.)Eric Anderson
October 24, 2013
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Mung:
How much time did God spend planning the Creation?
It took eons, of course. There are many processes that are inherently sequential and cannot be computed instantly (using, say, a super parallel computer) by anybody, not even the Gods. The only way to find out how they turn out is to set them in motion and wait. But the Gods have plenty of time on their hands.Mapou
October 24, 2013
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Greetings, Mung. Just in case the question is directed at me at post 57,
How much time did God spend planning the Creation?
I do not know.seventrees
October 24, 2013
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How much time did God spend planning the Creation?Mung
October 24, 2013
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Greetings to all of you. Just some comments on some comments. I will also like it if Barry Arrington also detects where I am possibly wrong. Shader @ 3
I’ve met many YEC’s who believe that day 4 is when the actual sun was created. Yet what is a day? A day is the length of time it takes for the earth to rotate a full revolution, and logically requires the sun for this measurement.
Not really. If the Creator decided a day is Earth's 24 hrs, then on day 4, a plan could be constructed to make sure that the creation of the other objects in space will not violate Earth's 24 hrs for a day.
Why would God measure his day by the arbitrary 24 hour day of the earth itself? The very object he was creating?
Because God started creating. Creating something that has never existed before will require to be initiated with time t = 0. Time here represents the beginning of something. Now, it is up to the Creator to decide whether 1 day = 24 hrs with Earth as the frame of reference, or any other frame of reference. Mapou @ 14
Well, I am a Christian and I am certainly not a poof believer. The scriptures teach me that everything was created via wisdom and understanding. IOW, an awful lot of planning went into creating the universe and life on earth. We were created in the image of the Elohim (the Gods) and if we need a brain to think, so do they.
I don't know much about duration of planning when it concerns the Creator. But suppose the Creator has the power to make things appear the moment He wants it. If it took Him eternity past to think on how to create the universe, it does not mean a “poof” cannot occur in the implementation of the plan. Unless I misunderstand the “poof” idea. I am thinking “poof” to mean “Be – And it was” (If I borrowed correctly from the Quran). Simultaneous causation.seventrees
October 24, 2013
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Mung: Granted. Yet, keep in mind, I'm discussing this as if I'm speaking with old earth creationists and young earth creationists. From there... I think after one identifies the inconsistencies with the old earth paradigm. The young earth paradigm would be the most consistent model - thus the simplest explanation (among creationist peers). imoJGuy
October 24, 2013
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JGuy:
Simplest explanation, imo: Everything was created in six earth days 6000 years ago.
That's not an explanation, it's a statement of faith.Mung
October 24, 2013
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Simplest explanation, imo: Everything was created in six earth days 6000 years ago. Earth is young. And the universe beyond earth may or may not have experienced more time effects. But again all was created from earth perspective 6000 years ago, and in six literal earth days. White Hole Cosmology makes more sense in this regard.
A minor quibble: 6,000 years is quite old. It's certainly young relative to the other age numbers being thrown around, but it's a few orders of magnitude longer than any human can expect to live. Expecting accurate age estimations from 30~100 years of samples/observations is also a bit of a foolish endeavor IMO.SirHamster
October 24, 2013
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correction, I wrote: "Why is the ocean as salty as the Dead Sea? Teh rivers continually pup in salt from the continents." It should read: "Why isn't the ocean as salty as the Dead Sea? The rivers continually pump in [dissolved] salt from the continents."JGuy
October 24, 2013
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Mung @ 49
If God created the universe and the earth and living things on earth to appear as if they are more than 6000 years old who are we to tell Him He can’t do that? And if He did that, why does it matter that carbon dating or any other dating method appears to confirm that appearance of age? Surely God could have kept the illusion of age consistent. Right? The alternative, as I see it, is that God did not make the universe and the earth and living things appear like they have been around longer than 6,000 years and every bit of evidence to the contrary is just not being interpreted correctly. Now let the ad-hoccery begin. Otoh, the simplest explanation is “it looks old because it is old.” imo
Another alternate ad hoc option: The appearance of age is a delusion from being indoctrinated from childhood from watching too many episodes of the Flintstones. --- I think this notion of "appearance of age" is itself misguided. How would one logically say that anything looks 1,000,000 years old. I mean, I can understand if someone says that this particular car looks German. Because we are know from observing things that are made in Germany. But we can't time travel before our lives began. So, to say this any particular thing looks any age older than we have lived our own life is using a basis outside of actual experience. Especially, if one claims something looks millions or billions of years old. --- Another ad hoc possibility: The universe is 6000 years old as measured by time on earth. However, the further from earth you get, the faster clocks tick. --- On carbon 14. Why is it that diamonds that are 500 million years old by old earth models, have detectable C-14, indicating an age less than 50,000 years old? Why do old earthers seem to brush these things under the rug with ad hoc explanations??? Yet, STILL claim science defies youth and indicates old ages? This is VERY inconsistent if you ask me. Thus, the old earth view must make ad hoc explanations. There are only two arguments that YEC wrangle with old earthers on: radioactive decay and star light Yet, old earhers should recognize far more examples to wrangle with. For example they even have radioactive decay problems, like C14 in diamonds. And basic physics problems with the helium diffusion rates in zircons - which refute old ages. These are brushed under the rug with unsatisfying ad hoc explanations. Another... basic chemistry problem... the salinity of the oceans. Why is the ocean as salty as the Dead Sea? Teh rivers continually pup in salt from the continents. Again, old earthers must use unsatisfying ad hoc explanations, or ignore this. The list goes on, old earthers have more ad hoc explanations than old earthers are willing to recognize as inconsistencies in their model. Simplest explanation, imo: Everything was created in six earth days 6000 years ago. Earth is young. And the universe beyond earth may or may not have experienced more time effects. But again all was created from earth perspective 6000 years ago, and in six literal earth days. White Hole Cosmology makes more sense in this regard.JGuy
October 24, 2013
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100 million years is not even a blink of an eye if you have an eternity to live.Mapou
October 24, 2013
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Is anyone aware of any reviews of The Privileged Planet from a YEC perspective? I'd really like to read them. Framtpon71,
Ad hoc is a Latin phrase meaning "for this". It generally signifies a solution designed for a specific problem or task, non-generalizable, and not intended to be able to be adapted to other purposes
If God created the universe and the earth and living things on earth to appear as if they are more than 6000 years old who are we to tell Him He can't do that? And if He did that, why does it matter that carbon dating or any other dating method appears to confirm that appearance of age? Surely God could have kept the illusion of age consistent. Right? The alternative, as I see it, is that God did not make the universe and the earth and living things appear like they have been around longer than 6,000 years and every bit of evidence to the contrary is just not being interpreted correctly. Now let the ad-hoccery begin. Otoh, the simplest explanation is "it looks old because it is old." imoMung
October 24, 2013
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You obviously have thinner skin than I do. You took greater offense on a personal level than I intended. I was merely pointing out what I perceive as an inconsistency between what you expect from evolutionists, and what you give to YEC. If it came off overly harsh, I apologize. Having read your recommended link, its seems I'm not alone in interpreting your writing differently from the intended thesis.Frampton71
October 24, 2013
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Frampton71 @ 38: “I find B Arrington’s frequent writings regarding YECism as profoundly hypocritical . . .” Frampton71 @ 46: “My ‘attack’ if you want to call it that isn’t at you personally.” God help me if you ever decide to get personal. You should read the “update” at the top of the OP and my response to the OP in its original form that prompted the update here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-less-brief-response-to-david-anderson/Barry Arrington
October 24, 2013
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