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YEC, facts and evidence

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This post was originally written as a response to Barry’s recent post; however, Barry correctly pointed out that I had significantly mis-read him – I was reading much too fast. Apologies to Barry, and to those who read the earlier version of the post. I have now re-written it to not refer to (my careless misreading of) Barry’s position. I hope it still provides something helpful.

As a YEC, when listening to opposing positions, I sometimes hear a combination of criticism of the YEC framework, combined with talk of logic and evidence as an alternative to having an interpretative framework. This is philosophically very naive. It is talk which is especially prominent amongst the New Atheist crowd. Listening to them, you get to understand that they (alone!) are the exponents of logic and evidence; everybody else is blinded by their religion (which we might call, their ‘interpretative framework’). The reality is that everybody has an interpretative framework. The only difference is the degrees to which you are a) aware of it and b) consistent with it.

As a YEC, I believe that the correct use of logic is to honour God, who is the source and ultimate, perfect, exemplification of logic. He is a God of order and structure, and wishes his creation to be orderly and structured too. God is the ultimate grounding for logic. To frame the issue in terms of “these guys have an interpretative framework… whereas I use logic and evidence” is a statement right out of the phrase-book of positivism and scientism which should have no place on the side of those of us who oppose both of those as false and busted philosophies. We all have interpretative frameworks. Logic and evidence do whatever work they do, for all of us, within one of those frameworks.

This is not to retreat into a postmodern relativism – not all frameworks are equal, and neither can we simply abandon discussion and comparison of them as if they were all equally valid, or if comparison were impossible. Frameworks can easily be fundamentally false. Someone may believe that the YEC paradigm (which is, at root, that the Bible is the final authority, and that the correct interpretation of any one part of the Bible is provided by other parts of the Bible) is false; but he cannot simply say that it is false because some pile of uninterpreted evidence proves it to be so. There is no uninterpreted evidence. This would be to make the beginner’s mistake of believing that your framework is so obviously true, that it needs no explanation – that which counts as evidence within that framework ought to be evidence for all, because, hey, it’s just evidence!

In an earlier post on UD, I provided the beginnings of an explanation as to why I embrace the framework that I, as a YEC, do. This teases out some of these issues at greater length. On the issue of starlight and time, I am not a specialist, but have written on the reasons why simplistic appeals to uninterpreted evidence do not work on my own personal blog, here.

I’d like also to note in passing that one of the most common appeals to “simple evidence” isn’t quite as simple as it seems. It’s commonly accepted that the edge of the observable universe is approximately around 45 billion light years away; whilst the age is accepted as around 15 billion light years. That’s a 30 billion year difference. The difference in those two figures is explained within the Big Bang paradigm via the expansion of the universe itself. But, when you are in a context where that paradigm itself is being disputed, an appeal to it as the basis for interpreting your evidence is viciously circular. Personally, I see no logical or philosophical problem in appealing to a sequence of unique, extraordinary and unrepeatable events in creation week, and no ultimate conceptual difference compared with appealing to a sequence of such events in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang. The debate is not over to whether there were such events; just which ones. But keep your eyes on the ball: my point here is not to argue that this or that explanation is wrong, or that no plausible solution exists; I am not a cosmologist. Rather, it’s to point out that some kind of explanation is needed, and that explanation will need to rely on further assumptions, which may themselves be open to question. The evidence needed some interpreting, and plenty of nuance. The evidence is complex, not simple, and even in this ‘canonical’ example we can begin to see that.

Returning from that diversion to the basic and underlying issues, if you’ve got time to get your teeth into something longer, then this presentation from 6 years ago, whilst addressing a different audience, is less ad-hoc than my blog posts.

This all makes the debate more complex. Rather than being able to simply pose ‘logic/evidence versus interpretative frameworks’, you have to instead articulate more of your own framework, and to think about how to compare different frameworks, in ways that don’t simply beg the question. I don’t propose to do that now; but if we can at least consider these preliminary points, then it’ll be a good step towards mutual understanding in the camp.

Comments
I don't think thee is such a thing as logic. I think logic like math is a human construction. Instead there are just accurate conclusions in relationship with other accurate conclusions. So logic may fit in this as a special case. However logic works fine even if wrong conclusions are drawn. This because logic works upon presumptions of facts. So logic is not a real thing of truth but only a coincedence if it works. YEC is based on belief in the bible as a memo from God and so origin facts are shown. then the evidence of nature will not contradict this memo. So YEC does two things. It debunks any manmade conclusions, based on claims of natures evidence, contrary to the bible and then it asserts conclusions, from the memo, we can't or have not proven with natures evidence.Robert Byers
October 23, 2013
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I mean, really now, in our contemporary age, do you think God controls every single bolt of lightning? Every microscopic static discharge? Every flutter of a breeze? Or every flip of a coin? He doesn’t have to, if the system is designed “right.” Occasionally he might have to hop in to make sure something goes exactly right (because), like protecting someone from getting killed, or perhaps resurrecting the body of a Messiah.
Well, it apparently interests Him to keep track of the number of hairs on everyone's head, and to track the life of even small animals like the sparrow. He certainly doesn't need to, but apparently he chooses to.SirHamster
October 23, 2013
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vh:
Actually, mapou, everyone ultimately believes in poofs, no matter if you’re YEC or materialist.
Well, I am a Christian and I am certainly not a poof believer. The scriptures teach me that everything was created via wisdom and understanding. IOW, an awful lot of planning went into creating the universe and life on earth. We were created in the image of the Elohim (the Gods) and if we need a brain to think, so do they. I realise there are many here who don't believe we need our brains to think. I think that is pure unmitigated nonsense. We need both our brains and our spirits.Mapou
October 23, 2013
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But the difference is that YEC believes the poofs were purposefully-miraculous and planned events in one week while materialists believe the poofs all happened by chance and over billions of years. These are the competing stories, but only one can be true
YEC or (blind) materialism the only options? There's at least one other possibility, an old universe that was purposefully made, and the creation of earth and life with direct intelligent manipulation at certain points, with periods of "niche"-searching evolution by the intelligently designed system during other periods of time, all of this done over long stretches of time. An intelligently designed system, that has direct invention (miracles) on rare occasion, but otherwise proceeds (evolves) according to the rules that were setup. I mean, really now, in our contemporary age, do you think God controls every single bolt of lightning? Every microscopic static discharge? Every flutter of a breeze? Or every flip of a coin? He doesn't have to, if the system is designed "right." Occasionally he might have to hop in to make sure something goes exactly right (because), like protecting someone from getting killed, or perhaps resurrecting the body of a Messiah.CentralScrutinizer
October 23, 2013
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Actually, mapou, everyone ultimately believes in poofs, no matter if you're YEC or materialist. But the difference is that YEC believes the poofs were purposefully-miraculous and planned events in one week while materialists believe the poofs all happened by chance and over billions of years. These are the competing stories, but only one can be true....nothing else makes a lick of sense.vh
October 23, 2013
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Thanks for the revisions David. Ps 133:1Barry Arrington
October 23, 2013
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Mapou, not much there I can take exception with.CentralScrutinizer
October 23, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer:
Do you have anything better to offer?
Yes. I have some suggestions. Don't be adamant about doctrine. That's what all the poof believers do. YECs are adamant about six-day creation story and the materialists are adamant about methodological naturalism. Both sides are equally wrong and unscientific, in my opinion. I say, keep searching and, eventually, you shall find. Nothing is handed down to us on a platter. If you think you already found everything you need to know, you have already failed. Above all, worship God. Don't worship any book. That would be idolatry. The Bible is a research tool for gaining knowledge and it was written by many authors. It's not infallible. Some of the books that should be in the Bible were excluded. Also, there are other sources of knowledge in the world. Even the Bible acknowledges that the Egyptians had accumulated a body of knowledge and that Moses was fully trained in the wisdom of the land of Egypt.Mapou
October 23, 2013
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Why can't we have a POV that harmonizes YEC with other views such as OEC? In God's timeless POV the Earth is very "new," so the YEC position would be correct. After all, God was the only observer of His Creation - I'm speaking of the creation event itself. If God was the only observer, then perhaps the language found in Genesis is from God's POV. If such is the case, this would render the meaning of "Day" quite different than how humans understand it as a literal 24 hour period. And even if it were a literal 24 hour period, from God's POV, that 24 hour period could have lasted "a thousand years" or more, depending on what the measuring standard was. Our current standard is the rotation of the Earth. Could "Day" in Genesis have a different standard? I'm thinking that God experiences time aligned with ultimate relativity - sort of like how a black hole consumes everyting into nothing. God's time is eternity; which has in it's "nature" the absense of time. 24 hours, 1000 years, what are these to the Creator of the universe? I would rather perceive the Creation in terms of God's perfect ordering of Creation events, so the particulars as to time are less important; but that's just my own POV. :) Mung, in geological time I suppose it was an instant.CannuckianYankee
October 23, 2013
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I don't understand why it took God six days. Couldn't he have just said "let it be so" and "poof" there everything was all at one instant?Mung
October 23, 2013
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Mapou: If everything is based on an “interpretative framework” that cannot be proven correct, what’s the point of debating anything?
I'll answer: some frameworks are more consistent and require less assumptions given the evidence. Of course, that assumes that consistency and "Occam's Razor" are important guiding principles for a given person, which is a "framework" itself. I can't prove that this is the best path to take, but I happen to be built that way. I can't help it. Do you have anything better to offer?CentralScrutinizer
October 23, 2013
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shader: you've conflated the *measurement* of a period of time, with the period of time itself. There is no problem in viewing the sun as describing, rather than defining, the period of time which we have come to know as a day. Or put another way, if I lose my watch, then time doesn't actually come to a standstill.David Anderson
October 23, 2013
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David Anderson, If everything is based on an "interpretative framework" that cannot be proven correct, what's the point of debating anything? On what interpretative framework do you base your interpretation of the Genesis creation week? You wrote:
the YEC paradigm (which is, at root, that the Bible is the final authority, and that the correct interpretation of any one part of the Bible is provided by other parts of the Bible)
There is evidence within scriptures that the Genesis creation story and the account of Adam and Eve are at least partially metaphorical. For example, the book of Revelation, an obviously metaphorical treatise, uses some of the same metaphors:
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
There are many other similar examples in Revelation. In your opinion, which book is using "tree of life" and "paradise of God" metaphorically? If the literalists were not so adamant in their convictions and teachings, we would have made much faster progress in our understanding of scripture, in my opinion. As an example, at the risk of sounding like a heretic, I believe that the tree of life, should be taken to mean exactly what the Darwinists think it means: a hierarchical organization of living organisms. I even think the metaphor should be taken down to the smallest genetic component of life. This is why I believe that soon, we will find that the entire genome or every species is organized hierarchically, like a tree. A similar approach can be used with the tree of knowledge which would give us a better understanding of the organization of intelligence and knowledge. Unfortunately, this type of understanding is forever beyond the grasp of a literalist.Mapou
October 23, 2013
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In the end, what is the point in being a YEC? The bible doesn't require that the Genesis "days" are 24 hours long. I've met many YEC's who believe that day 4 is when the actual sun was created. Yet what is a day? A day is the length of time it takes for the earth to rotate a full revolution, and logically requires the sun for this measurement. Why would God measure his day by the arbitrary 24 hour day of the earth itself? The very object he was creating? The universe is full of planets and stars. Why would a day to God be the amount of time it takes for one of those planets to revolve around the sun? Sure, when he gave commands to humans, and used days, he used human days. But in the creation account, there were no humans. God sitting in a completely different realm as the physical earth and sun...why would he take 6 24-hour earth days to create the entire universe? Now is this possible? I suppose. But why force something that isn't required. Why force a reading in the text that seems to fly in the face of all scientific and logical evidence?shader
October 23, 2013
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...Having said that, I don't judge people for holding fast to different paradigms of reality than I do. The conscious and subconscious factors that lead one to a given conclusion over other conclusions are extremely complicated and diverse. Individuals give certain ideas, evidence and explanations different "weight" based on all sorts of factors. Humans are weird. But in a good way. Well, at least an interesting way. :)CentralScrutinizer
October 23, 2013
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I find Barry's and your post interesting. I was formerly a YEC and am a YEC no longer. So I know what it's like to be one, and not be one. And how it was like to shift from one paradigm to another in my view of the universe.
"But, when you are in a context where that paradigm itself is being disputed, an appeal to it as the basis for interpreting your evidence is viciously circular."
True. However, some paradigms are more self-consistent given the evidence than others. This is reason why people shift from one paradigm to another. It's why I did. Was a YEC and am a YEC no longer. I couldn't help it... if I was to be honest with myself. An old universe paradigm seems to be more consistent given the evidence. I have found that objections to this POV are generally of a religious nature, using the Bible as an authority, as if the Bible itself was not under the same scrutiny as everything else.CentralScrutinizer
October 23, 2013
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