L&FP, 65: So, you think you understand the double slit experiment? (HT, Q & BA77)

_{kairosfocus

February 5, 2023

Academic Freedom, Logic and Reason, Physics}

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So, here we go:

And, the rise of solid state laser pointers makes this sort of exercise so much easier, BUT YOU MUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO GET SUCH A BRIGHT SOURCE INTO YOUR EYE AS THIS MAY CAUSE RETINAL BURNS THUS BLIND SPOTS. (I recall, buying and assembling a kit He-Ne laser to have this exercise for my High School students. We had a ball, using metre sticks stuck to a screen with blu-tack, to observe and measure effects from several metres away.)

So, now, what about, electrons:

Notice, the pattern here builds up statistically, one spot at a time.

Then, HT BA77 way back, here is Dr Quantum:

Now, if you think you have it all figured out, think again, and again, and again. KF

Comments

AD at 136, I would rule out pride. ID cannot win in terms of popular opinion, it can't be taught in classrooms and it should not be part of sermons. So an opponent to ID - called Evolution - needs to stand in the way. People can't be allowed to believe ID is what it claims to be, meaning our bodies are designed. They are not accidents. I think JVL sees the evidence. I think he understands it. But Intelligent Design would "ruin everything" for a lot of people. Why? Who is the Designer? It's God. The Abrahamic God. What does that mean? People will become more religious. They will know that God actually created them and everything else. If you were an atheist, you just have one less reason to not believe in God because the evidence against unguided evolution is 100%. But those against ID have no choice but to put up a fight. Whether it makes sense or not.relatd_{February 9, 2023
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JVL it's baffling to me that as the son of a mech engineer, that design when done by humans in all its intricate beauty and complexity, is easily inferred with our inventions, but cause and effect reasoning when you see the staggeringly complex and intricate mechanisms in nature, and think time plus matter plus chance. That's just box of rocks dumb, in my book, and you strike me as quite bright. It can only mean willful disregard of the evidence. You don't see it because you refuse to see it. The pride is strong with this one...AnimatedDust_{February 9, 2023
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JVL at 134, You know what? Everything can't be a compromise. We can't have a half Evolution and half ID solution. Understand? It CAN'T happen. So your not-honest attempt at some stupid idea can't happen, like 'I don't want 2 + 2 = 4. Let's compromise and make it 4 1/2." Really? That's what you're proposing. It can't work because it doesn't work.relatd_{February 9, 2023
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Jerry: There has never been a constructive response from an anti ID person in 15 years. Unless they can be used as a foil to make a point, they should be ignored. See what I mean Asauber? I'm assumed to be not fair or honest or sincere. Is that my problem or those that, perhaps, just give a knee-jerk reaction to someone that disagrees with them and that they assume holds certain values?JVL_{February 9, 2023
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Asauber: Sorry. Not buying it. You use comments to oppose. The fact that you deny it isn’t helping you. Why can't you just live and let live?JVL_{February 9, 2023
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You use comments to oppose
you are just noticing that now There has never been a constructive response from an anti ID person in 15 years. Unless they can be used as a foil to make a point, they should be ignored.jerry_{February 9, 2023
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Relatd: When dealing with engineering problems and that includes the quantum realm, you throw everything you can at it, see what works and figure out the details later My father is a mechanical engineer and I taught lots of engineers. After three sig-figs they don't care much unless they're working on extremely high-performance stuff or stuff that has to perform in extremely tricky situations. And why not? Do what works. And then try and streamline the production process to make it affordable.JVL_{February 9, 2023
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AnimatedDust: Parsimonious: Frugal to the point of stinginess. Sparing, restrained. Is that really the word you wanted for your last sentence? From Wikipedia:
Occam's razor, Ockham's razor, or Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami) in philosophy is the problem-solving principle that recommends searching for explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements. It is also known as the principle of parsimony or the law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae). Attributed to William of Ockham, a 14th-century English philosopher and theologian, it is frequently cited as Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, which translates as "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity", although Occam never used these exact words. Popularly, the principle is sometimes inaccurately paraphrased as "The simplest explanation is usually the best one."
Works for me.JVL_{February 9, 2023
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For William J Murray with respect. https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/engagedJVL_{February 9, 2023
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"I started out just asking questions and trying to honestly answer the ones posed to me" JVL, Sorry. Not buying it. You use comments to oppose. The fact that you deny it isn't helping you. Andrewasauber_{February 9, 2023
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JVL at 126, I'm going to agree with JVL (write down time and date). When dealing with engineering problems and that includes the quantum realm, you throw everything you can at it, see what works and figure out the details later. Math? Who cares? You design experiments that work, let the math guys in on it and keep going.relatd_{February 9, 2023
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Kairosfocus: I was pounced on as pushing supernaturalism, for the thought crime of quoting Feynman [whose Physics lectures are a treat] on how “nobody” truly understands Q-Mech Yeah, it's a tough crowd. I agree, he was a brilliant science communicator. And it is clear that nobody really understands QM, why else are there two competing interpretations? Shut up and calculate is the only thing that makes sense! The mathematical models work, use them and don't worry so much about why.JVL_{February 9, 2023
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Parsimonious: Frugal to the point of stinginess. Sparing, restrained. Is that really the word you wanted for your last sentence?AnimatedDust_{February 9, 2023
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Asauber: You seem emotionally/personally invested in denying there’s design in biology. That's just you imposing that impression on me. You have zero idea of where I've come from or what I've looked at and considered. You’re here a lot opposing ID. Why not let live and let live? I started out just asking questions and trying to honestly answer the ones posed to me. But people got real belligerent and aggressive, telling me I was a fool and a clown and dishonest and delusional and God-hating. So, slowly, even though I still try and ask questions, I find myself getting more and more defensive. In other words: most people here do not treat me with a live and let live attitude. You assumed I was not humble and honest. Why do you make those assumptions? Just because I disagree with you? Nothing would make me happier that to just have civilised discussions: What does ID say about this or that? Ah, that's interesting. What does unguided evolutionary theory say about this or that? Ah, that's how you think; thanks for explaining that. But it doesn't go that way 'cause I must be here because I "seem emotionally/personally invested in denying there’s design in biology". That's what you think. That's what you assume. You paint my colours in based on your own palate instead of supposing that I maybe I have read the Bible, read lots of material about intelligent design, spent some time trying to find out if I've missed something about it and then, still, decided that I find unguided evolution more parsimonious.JVL_{February 9, 2023
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KF, Unfortunately, I didn't go again this year. The missus started another new job and she couldn't get the time off. I don't travel without her, so it takes two to tango to the March. It pains me to miss it. I always feel called to go. I heard it was great, but haven't read any reports or looked at any pics...yet. Andrew P.S. If my lovely wife doesn't change jobs again, we'll likely be there next year.asauber_{February 9, 2023
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AS, I missed the March, did you go and do you have pics? KFkairosfocus_{February 9, 2023
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JVL, there are some fairly common views that are unnecessarily polarising, which tends to bias discussion even on seemingly unrelated topics. For example some days back, I was pounced on as pushing supernaturalism, for the thought crime of quoting Feynman [whose Physics lectures are a treat] on how "nobody" truly understands Q-Mech. KFkairosfocus_{February 9, 2023
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"Such as?" JVL, You seem emotionally/personally invested in denying there's design in biology. Like whatever culture you align with, that seems to be the M.O of that group. You're here a lot opposing ID. Why not let live and let live? Andrewasauber_{February 9, 2023
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Asauber: There are indications you didn’t do that yet. Such as?JVL_{February 9, 2023
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"Maybe I already did that and came to a different conclusion than yours." JVL, There are indications you didn't do that yet. Andrewasauber_{February 9, 2023
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Oh well, I tried. Free Willy made me laugh. And re second to last reply, it's dripping with pride, so I would venture to say, sorry, not so. Enjoy the day.AnimatedDust_{February 9, 2023
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AnimatedDust: You could be wrong. Yup, that's a possibility. What’s ultimately true about the universe is going to be true once we die. You think you won’t know, because you’ll be done. Or you won’t be. Yup. Tons of EVIDENCE that life doesn’t end at the grave Actually, I've spent quite a few years looking at the evidence for NDEs (near death experiences) especially via the podcast Skeptico. As does Quantum Mechanics. I don't think QM says diddly-squat about life without corporeal form. Quantum Mechanics reveals Free Will in the very nature of the particles that make up our reality. I don't think QM has anything to say about Free Will either. Free Willy maybe. For love. I don't see that at all. In fact, since every human life is chock-a-block full of sham, drudgery and broken dreams (to say nothing of the uncountable number of life forms and individuals that came before us and died) I find it more . . . reflecting the data to assume the universe is profoundly indifferent to us. If your heart has darkened you to think of God only as a cosmic killjoy, who only wants to keep you down, you’ve bought into The Lie. The thing about not finding a cosmic designer a necessary hypothesis is you don't anthropomorphise he/she/it. If there's no supreme being then there's no motivation or intent, good or evil. Could I be wrong? Of course. But when I look at and examine love, justice, relationship, integrity, character and truth, it doesn’t make any logical sense to hold that those immaterial qualities are evolutionary adaptations that emerged from matter. Hey, that's your prerogative. I think it does make sense to think of them that way. Sometimes, it explains aspects of those as well. That case has been successfully made here for decades, despite your protestations. Well, about 1.7 decades. And I disagree. If your worldview doesn’t add up, based on the evidence, it might be time to consider a different one. I think it does add up; that's why I hold it. Your worldview is causing you to decide which evidence you accept and which you don’t. I don't think that's true either. That's just an assumption you make in an attempt to understand why I disagree with you. I MUST not be looking at all the evidence. But that can’t start until you swallow your pride, humble yourself and become wise. Maybe I already did that and came to a different conclusion than yours. Those aren’t my words in that last sentence. You think they were penned by illiterate sheep herders in the Bronze Age. Illiterate people don't 'pen' anything. They can't write.JVL_{February 9, 2023
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I will just add, having caught up, that JVL, your questions could be turned around on you. You could be wrong. And you're pretty sure you're not. And so you spend a tremendous amount of time here trying to get us to see the world your way. For you, when you die, it's lights out. Full stop. What if you're wrong? What's ultimately true about the universe is going to be true once we die. You think you won't know, because you'll be done. Or you won't be. You can't see it, but you have a tremendous amount of blind faith. If BA77's long posts bore you, it's at your peril. Tons of EVIDENCE that life doesn't end at the grave. WJM's MRT worldview shows him that materialism is an untenable position to continue to hold. As does Quantum Mechanics. Neither of the latter two involve Christianity. Quantum Mechanics reveals Free Will in the very nature of the particles that make up our reality. It's all about us, the only conscious observers with the ability and means to unlock what that means. This universe is not an external matter based paradigm, much as our perceptions tell us it is. It was designed that way. In fact, it's exactly the kind of universe that is what we would expect, if the designer wanted, at bottom, for relationship to be possible. For love. And for love, must exist the ability to say no. And all that entails. I would suggest that you give serious consideration to the possibility that you're the one who is wrong, and the consequences of that, after you take your last breath, would be the abject horror that you chose thusly, and are now actualized in that choice forever. You are simply given what you've asked for your entire life. And you will be able to see your life in every detail, including your thoughts, played back in fine detail so that you will be without excuse. If your heart has darkened you to think of God only as a cosmic killjoy, who only wants to keep you down, you've bought into The Lie. Humbling yourself allows you to see the errors in your thinking, and allows you to accept the possibility that you've got a lot more math to do. Could I be wrong? Of course. But when I look at and examine love, justice, relationship, integrity, character and truth, it doesn't make any logical sense to hold that those immaterial qualities are evolutionary adaptations that emerged from matter. The evidence is on our side. And most materialists hold that we are the ones who believe in the absence of evidence. Actually, it's your side. That case has been successfully made here for decades, despite your protestations. If your worldview doesn't add up, based on the evidence, it might be time to consider a different one. Your worldview is causing you to decide which evidence you accept and which you don't. You're a marionette whose strings are pulled by your worldview. But that can't start until you swallow your pride, humble yourself and become wise. Those aren't my words in that last sentence. You think they were penned by illiterate sheep herders in the Bronze Age. Allow for the possibility that they were onto something.AnimatedDust_{February 9, 2023
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Kairosfocus: I just note on a point of balance given a polarising assertion, that it is failure to repent from wrongdoing and refusal to turn to truth and right that renders one subject to Judgement What does that have to do with quantum mechanics?JVL_{February 9, 2023
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WJM, I have decided to put up point of reference posts because of the frequent exchanges on quantum themes. Those interested or needing, will have that. KFkairosfocus_{February 9, 2023
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WJM, JVL, perhaps we can continue our conversation in the new thread 'Whistling Into The Wind: There Is No Consciousness Problem!'? I am not sure, but ...
There is no inside and no outside. There is no here and no there. There is just your existence, you, (...) The mind is identical with the (relative) object. Hence the name of Mind-Object Identity.
... has a familiar ring to it.Origenes_{February 9, 2023
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JVL, Origenes, I'm sorry to say we must discontinue our conversations. Well, they appeared to have reached their natural end anyway, so it's not that big a deal. Apparently KF is expecting a flood of conversation about Quantum physics to occur in this post as soon as we stop talking about this subject. Apparently, it was preventing anyone else from commenting about QM physics in this thread. Obviously, that lack of on-topic conversation here had nothing to do with the fact that KF has made three more recent posts on the same subject. I appreciate the conversation and you guys have a great day. Let the QM conversation commence!!William J Murray_{February 9, 2023
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Can we refocus the quantum themes, please.
ROFL!!! This conversation is the only thing keeping ANY of your 4 recent quantum-themed posts active, KF. You have three more recent posts, another one just going up a few minutes ago on the same subject. But you want to keep the conversation in THIS particular post on theme, when literally nobody else is talking about anything here and there are literally 3 more recent posts you put up ON THE SAME SUBJECT for those "on theme" conversations to be carried on in? BruhWilliam J Murray_{February 9, 2023
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Can we refocus the quantum themes, please.kairosfocus_{February 9, 2023
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JVL said:
It’s a question of whether they are real in any kind of physical sense.
You're conflating two different axiomatic systems. What "real" and "fictional" mean are two entirely different things under the two different worldviews. Which leads us to this:
It’s just hard for me to imagine me only having a reality in your perceptions. From your point of view.
Which makes it difficult to ask meaningful questions or make meaningful criticisms. That can't be done while looking at idealist internalism through an externalist perspective. It's like criticizing someone's choices without having any knowledge of his or her motivations or history. You would be criticizing them on the basis of your motivations and history, not theirs.
IF you’re wrong and there is no astral plane then what was the point of all that pain? When will you know if you’re right or wrong?
As I have said when I pointed out that it's not about proof, it's not about whether or not I'm right or wrong about my model of existence and reality. That's all it is - a model. I don't create models and test them out to see if they are true so I can believe in them as true: I test them out to see if they appear to be successful at producing enjoyment in my life. I have a lifetime of experience working with different models of reality and existence and none of the others produced anything close to the multidimensional depth and forms of enjoyment the mental reality theory has produced. I'm not wrong in stating the fact that my level of daily enjoyment is fantastic. ALL the other existential models I tried out before - atheism, Sant Mat, Methodist Christianity, etc - did not produce anything like this; they produced more misery, confusion, dissatisfaction, stress and angst than anything else. I'm not claiming my model will do that for other people, but it definitely works for me. Materialism, Christianity, other beliefs seem to work better for other people at producing the kind of lives they want to live. I don't think my model can produce the kind of psychological structures that they enjoy by finding deep meaning and value in certain ideas of reality. "Serving the God of Universal Good" and "fighting evil" or "fighting for justice" or "saving the planet" are perspectives that are unavailable under my form of idealist internalism. IOW, MRT undermines those kinds of belief structures. So, obviously my internalist form of MRT is not something those people would flourish under or enjoy.
And, if you are wrong then I find your stance to have an aspect of victim blaming (i.e. your life is bad because you choose it to be that way) and I cannot go along that path personally.
Well, nobody is asking you to :) This isn't a religion where you either convert or go to hell for eternity. You're free to live your life as you see fit, and I respect that. I appreciate the civil conversation. You have a great day! __________ [ED --> WJM, I just note on a point of balance given a polarising assertion, that it is failure to repent from wrongdoing and refusal to turn to truth and right that renders one subject to Judgement. See Rom 2:6 - 8. KF]William J Murray_{February 9, 2023
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