L&FP, 65: So, you think you understand the double slit experiment? (HT, Q & BA77)

_{kairosfocus
February 5, 2023

Academic Freedom, Logic and Reason, Physics

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So, here we go:

And, the rise of solid state laser pointers makes this sort of exercise so much easier, BUT YOU MUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO GET SUCH A BRIGHT SOURCE INTO YOUR EYE AS THIS MAY CAUSE RETINAL BURNS THUS BLIND SPOTS. (I recall, buying and assembling a kit He-Ne laser to have this exercise for my High School students. We had a ball, using metre sticks stuck to a screen with blu-tack, to observe and measure effects from several metres away.)

So, now, what about, electrons:

Notice, the pattern here builds up statistically, one spot at a time.

Then, HT BA77 way back, here is Dr Quantum:

Now, if you think you have it all figured out, think again, and again, and again. KF

Comments

William J Murray: I’m not sure how my particular worldview changes these basic observations about human nature. It's a question of whether they are real in any kind of physical sense. What does “actually” mean? Again, a question of what actually exists outside of your perceptions. I'm not sure why I keep asking that over and over again when you have been pretty clear. It's just hard for me to imagine me only having a reality in your perceptions. From your point of view. I don’t know what this means. I didn't express it very well . . . what I meant was why do you/we go through a period of maturation instead of just becoming mature. As I said, by providing depth, contrast and context that are required for certain kinds of enjoyment experiences. For example, the extreme sadness, grief and despair that occurred for a few months after my wife died is an experience I now treasure. It is one of my most treasured experiences, because it showed me everything that she means to me in all of its terrible beauty. Now, when I see her, I will always carry with me that knowledge, that depth, that understanding. IF you're wrong and there is no astral plane then what was the point of all that pain? When will you know if you're right or wrong? I've been badgering you for quite a while and I appreciate the time and patience you have displayed trying to answer the same basic question(s) over and over again. I don't actually have any more questions except when will you know if you're right or wrong. And, if you are wrong then I find your stance to have an aspect of victim blaming (i.e. your life is bad because you choose it to be that way) and I cannot go along that path personally. Because I am, in some sense, opposite to you: I think there is a physical reality that shaped us, fine tuned us. And, many times, that physical reality doesn't really care about us at all. We do create/find our own happiness and peace in that context not by assuming it's just a construct.JVL_{February 9, 2023
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Calling back to focus, Q-mech is more than enough for this and related threadskairosfocus_{February 8, 2023
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Origenes @103:
Self-defeating proposition.
Well, we can all make assertions, such as: Externalism is a self-defeating proposition. Also, by the way, the dream comparison was an analogy. Sorry, I thought my wording made that clear.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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JVL said:
All judged from your idiosyncratic point of view. You are expressing your values and judgments. As you have to do. Especially based on your belief system.
Does it work differently for you?
You reference categories (like wealthy) that your worldview would label fiction.
Why would I label such things "fiction" because of my worldview?
I don’t understand how you move from creating ones own reality to judging others.
I'm not sure what I said about wealth that isn't basic common sense. Are you saying that you do not think that those born into wealth would be more likely to take that wealth for granted than someone who had to build it from scratch by their own hard work? Are you saying that the having of wealth would be roughly the same experience in both situations? I know that when I am parched, a cool glass of water feels and tastes wonderful. However, the rest of the time I either take it for granted and barely notice it, or must actively remember the "parched" context/contrast to return to that same degree of enjoyment and appreciation. I'm not sure how my particular worldview changes these basic observations about human nature.
Can you judge others if, in the end, they are just constructs in your mind? Are there actually wealthy people in your mind?
What does "actually" mean? Is there some other place (other than my experience) for them to be that I should have access to?
Why should there ever be periods of pain or misery if, indeed, you are in charge?
I just explained it. It adds depth, contrast and context to various structures of enjoyment. I'm in charge of the direction of my experiences, with some degree of control over a certain radius of action which my physical body represents. There is a huge middle area that I am not in direct conscious control over.
How does sadness or depression or despair match up with you deciding and picking what makes you happy?
As I said, by providing depth, contrast and context that are required for certain kinds of enjoyment experiences. For example, the extreme sadness, grief and despair that occurred for a few months after my wife died is an experience I now treasure. It is one of my most treasured experiences, because it showed me everything that she means to me in all of it's terrible beauty. Now, when I see her, I will always carry with me that knowledge, that depth, that understanding.
Is the universe, the reality you perceive just you sorting out your own personal psychological issues?
Well I don't spend that much time sorting them out. I've done most of that work. I'm basically just enjoying life these days.
No matter how petty or stupid they are. It’s all just down to you? All the time?
Petty or stupid compared to what, judged by what system of evaluation? I enjoy it when other people are happy and enjoying life, so that's one of my main activities. Is there something else I should be doing?
Why can’t you just grow up and get on with things?
I don't know what this means. I've lived a full life. I had a couple of careers, helped raise 6 children, retired, took care of my mother as she atrophied and eventually died here at my home, in bed, with dementia from dementia-related issues; took care of my wife as she was ill for two and a half years until she died of cancer. I was able to do those things because of the work-from-home self-employed business I created for myself. I've authored a few books, and established an online group that helps people deal with grief and the death of their romantic partners/spouses. I found the love of my eternal life and, if I do say so myself, I was and still am a good husband to her. I feel like I've accomplished all and more here in this life than I could have reasonably expected or asked for. In this later stage of life I have devoted myself to exploring the realms of mind to see what kind of experiences are possible. Do you see this as "not growing up" for some reason, or "not getting on with things?" What kind of things would I have to do for you to see me as "growing up" or "getting on with things?"
Why do you, personally, have to go through periods of doubt and pain?
I can't say I currently go through periods of doubt, but if I did, as I explained, that and pain are part of context and contrast building.
Is that a lack of understanding on your part? Lack of experience? Why didn’t you choose to manifest the necessary lessons in your life earlier so you didn’t have to have painful and emotional upheaval?
I don't think you've really understood what I said about enjoyment. I have learned how to enjoy my life, what great enjoyments cost in terms of context and contrast. I've described it to you and you're now asking me, why didn't I do something else?
And, in the end, what is the point? Why are you bothering?
Because it's incredibly enjoyable in so many different ways :)William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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WJM @
3. Do you hold that other people have an existence independent from your internal experience of them?
No. They might, but I don’t hold that they do. Unless you call “potential” a form of “existing.” I do, but I’m trying to phrase my answers in a way where they will likely be meaningful to you based on how you are wording your questions, what assumptions you appear to be implying.
Consider also this: I am certain that I exist. Moreover, the ground of my self-aware existence has nothing to do with your internal experience of me.
There are not “other consciousness” because there is only one.
I know for a fact that I am a self-aware person. And I do not share “I” with you or anyone else.
You might think of it as being in a dream where there is only one consciousness at work, but the “you” in the dream are still an individual avatar that appears to be equal in self-ness to all of the other people in the dream. In my view, the dreaming mind is “me,” but that’s what anyone in the dream can accurate say.
If I am dreaming then I can neither trust my mind nor my beliefs—the beliefs 'there is but one consciousness' and 'I am dreaming' included.
None of us are actually external of each other’s mind – we’re all in the same mind using the same consciousness to generate what appear to be individual avatars and experiences.
If my mind generates “what appear to be individual avatars and experiences”, then I can neither trust my mind nor my beliefs. Self-defeating proposition.Origenes_{February 8, 2023
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William J Murray: I can’t speak for why other people do what they do. That makes sense. For myself, this has to do with the difference between hedonism and enjoyment. Enjoyment is a much deeper, much richer category of experience. Many exquisite enjoyments require an enormous amount of context. For example, there is an enjoyable experience to be had when one goes through many years of struggle and hard work until they have built something they are proud of and gives them a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment. All judged from your idiosyncratic point of view. You are expressing your values and judgments. As you have to do. Especially based on your belief system. Another thing to consider is that some enjoyments require contrast to be more fully appreciated. A person born wealthy may not be able to enjoy their wealth as much as person who was born poor, struggled to attain it, and now enjoys deep sense of appreciation for the value wealth offers him or her. The wealthy are more likely to take all of that for granted, and may even focus more on the downsides of wealth, increasing their unhappiness. You reference categories (like wealthy) that your worldview would label fiction. Or maybe just one interpretation. I don't understand how you move from creating ones own reality to judging others. Can you judge others if, in the end, they are just constructs in your mind? Are there actually wealthy people in your mind? There is context and contrast I must experience, that I must gather and collect along the way in order to maximize the potential for future enjoyment. Sometimes that means going through very painful and miserable periods, or losing enjoyable qualities and/or commodities for a time. I have seen this play out in my own life many times, and I trust the pattern will continue. Why should there ever be periods of pain or misery if, indeed, you are in charge? How does sadness or depression or despair match up with you deciding and picking what makes you happy? Is the universe, the reality you perceive just you sorting out your own personal psychological issues? No matter how petty or stupid they are. It's all just down to you? All the time? Why can't you just grow up and get on with things? Why do you, personally, have to go through periods of doubt and pain? Is that a lack of understanding on your part? Lack of experience? Why didn't you choose to manifest the necessary lessons in your life earlier so you didn't have to have painful and emotional upheaval? And, in the end, what is the point? Why are you bothering?JVL_{February 8, 2023
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JVL asks:
Why would you create a reality where your body and mind lessen to some extent? Why do some people go down the path of dementia or serious injury if they don’t have to?
I can't speak for why other people do what they do. For myself, this has to do with the difference between hedonism and enjoyment. Enjoyment is a much deeper, much richer category of experience. Many exquisite enjoyments require an enormous amount of context. For example, there is an enjoyable experience to be had when one goes through many years of struggle and hard work until they have built something they are proud of and gives them a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment. Another thing to consider is that some enjoyments require contrast to be more fully appreciated. A person born wealthy may not be able to enjoy their wealth as much as person who was born poor, struggled to attain it, and now enjoys deep sense of appreciation for the value wealth offers him or her. The wealthy are more likely to take all of that for granted, and may even focus more on the downsides of wealth, increasing their unhappiness. There is context and contrast I must experience, that I must gather and collect along the way in order to maximize the potential for future enjoyment. Sometimes that means going through very painful and miserable periods, or losing enjoyable qualities and/or commodities for a time. I have seen this play out in my own life many times, and I trust the pattern will continue.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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William J Murray: Enjoyment does not reduce everything into the false dichotomy of pain and pleasure, especially not down to pains and pleasures of the flesh. Some very enjoyable things are conceptual and abstract, and often involve foregoing the pleasures of the flesh or even the pleasure of immediate gratification. Okay. The concept of “disproving” my beliefs is not applicable to my perspective. I don’t hold my beliefs by whether or not they can be proved or disproved. I hold them because of the life enjoyment they provide. If you can give a more enjoyable belief, then I’ll switch, but frankly I don’t see how that would be possible. So their truth (or not) is not a consideration. Okay. I’ve spent literally decades honing in on what is, for me, the most enjoyable belief system possible. It relieves me from all stress, allows me to enjoy virtually anything, puts me at ease in any situation, provides a constant sense of being whole and satisfied, and fills my heart with love, joy, wondrous anticipation, and other sensations and experiences I cannot adequately describe. Why on Earth would I change my beliefs for something else, when this belief has literally been responsible for bringing into my life everything I could possibly want, and much, much more that I never dreamed was even remotely possible? Hey, if you're not actually interested in reality then whatever trips your trigger(s). I guess. I assume you've considered the possibility that everyone else is doing the same thing to some extent or another. They are 'creating their reality' as they see fit or as they want it to be. This does all remind me of Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts. Well, of course you think everyone else is doing the same thing because you think that's how stuff works. I assume you have memories of ageing, of being different now than you were several decades ago. And I assume that some of your physical and perhaps mental abilities are somewhat diminished from the time you perceived yourself to be, say, 23 years old. Why would you create a reality where your body and mind lessen to some extent? Why do some people go down the path of dementia or serious injury if they don't have to?JVL_{February 8, 2023
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Seversky: As I believe they say in North Dakota, oh, ja, you Betje-man. Well done! I may have to Fargo a witty reply.JVL_{February 8, 2023
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JVL/94
Seversky: It’s called Slough. Is that where the friendly bombs fall?
As I believe they say in North Dakota, oh, ja, you Betje-man.Seversky_{February 8, 2023
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JVL asks:
How is that different from hedonism?
Enjoyment does not reduce everything into the false dichotomy of pain and pleasure, especially not down to pains and pleasures of the flesh. Some very enjoyable things are conceptual and abstract, and often involve foregoing the pleasures of the flesh or even the pleasure of immediate gratification.
So, if there was a way to disprove your beliefs are you saying that you wouldn’t change your behaviour?
The concept of "disproving" my beliefs is not applicable to my perspective. I don't hold my beliefs by whether or not they can be proved or disproved. I hold them because of the life enjoyment they provide. If you can give a more enjoyable belief, then I'll switch, but frankly I don't see how that would be possible. I've spent literally decades honing in on what is, for me, the most enjoyable belief system possible. It relieves me from all stress, allows me to enjoy virtually anything, puts me at ease in any situation, provides a constant sense of being whole and satisfied, and fills my heart with love, joy, wondrous anticipation, and other sensations and experiences I cannot adequately describe. Why on Earth would I change my beliefs for something else, when this belief has literally been responsible for bringing into my life everything I could possibly want, and much, much more that I never dreamed was even remotely possible?William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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JVL at 94, No. That would be Ubombistan.relatd_{February 8, 2023
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Origenes asks:
1. Do you hold that something exists outside of, and independent from, your internal experience?
I think there is an infinite number of things that are possible for me to experience that I am not currently experiencing in any conscious, aware way. However, it is my perspective that all of those possible things are internal, like aspects of what one would call the subconscious or in the vast potential of the unconscious.
2. Do you hold that the sun has an existence independent from your internal experience of it?
No. It might, but I don't hold that it does.
3. Do you hold that other people have an existence independent from your internal experience of them?
No. They might, but I don't hold that they do. Unless you call "potential" a form of "existing." I do, but I'm trying to phrase my answers in a way where they will likely be meaningful to you based on how you are wording your questions, what assumptions you appear to be implying. BTW, another way to look at this is by thinking of all of us being within each other; that we are all using one universal consciousness to explore the available potential within universal mind, if that makes more sense to you. There are not "other consciousness" because there is only one. You might think of it as being in a dream where there is only one consciousness at work, but the "you" in the dream are still an individual avatar that appears to be equal in self-ness to all of the other people in the dream. In my view, the dreaming mind is "me," but that's what anyone in the dream can accurate say. None of us are actually external of each other's mind - we're all in the same mind using the same consciousness to generate what appear to be individual avatars and experiences. As I've said before, this form of Idealism cannot be understood from the externalist perspective because it doesn't make any sense under the fundamental premises of that perspective. The language we're using is deeply externalist and makes it difficult to formulate accurate descriptions of internalist idealism.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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Seversky: It’s called Slough. Is that where the friendly bombs fall?JVL_{February 8, 2023
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William J Murray: That doesn’t really matter to me because it is very, very enjoyable. I’m unaware of any perspective that would render my life more enjoyable at this point. How is that different from hedonism? So, if there was a way to disprove your beliefs are you saying that you wouldn't change your behaviour?JVL_{February 8, 2023
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Seversky at 91, Your college professor just called. He confirmed you failed Christianity 101. :)relatd_{February 8, 2023
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JVL/77
Well, the poof should be in the pudding. So I’ve heard.
I believe there's a special place in Hell reserved for for people who make jokes like that. It's called Slough.Seversky_{February 8, 2023
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WJM @82
Ori: Your experience of the sun is internal and you are agnostic about the sun itself having an independent existence of your experience. However, you do hold that other people exist.
WJM: I equally hold that the sun exists, so there is no difference between the two in where and how I hold that they exist.
For the sake of clarity, the following questions: 1. Do you hold that something exists outside of, and independent from, your internal experience? 2. Do you hold that the sun has an existence independent from your internal experience of it? 3. Do you hold that other people have an existence independent from your internal experience of them?Origenes_{February 8, 2023
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JVL said :
If there is no astral plane and ‘you’ die when your body dies then it doesn’t matter what you believe.
True :) There's always the possibility that everything I believe is 100% untrue and all my experiences are explicable in other ways, like hallucinations, delusion, etc. That doesn't really matter to me because it is very, very enjoyable. I'm unaware of any perspective that would render my life more enjoyable at this point.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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William J Murray: IOW, reality is ultimately something I am in general directorial control over. I deliberately reprogram or “brainwash” myself into whatever beliefs I desire. If there is no astral plane and 'you' die when your body dies then it doesn't matter what you believe. Second, though, that is not to say that I can’t supply traditional forms of evidence from an externalist perspective. I can, but I want to make it clear that it is not that evidence which “convinces” me of anything. Okay. Personally, I have visited my astral home a few times and have been in my astral body, so I have personal experience. This happened through a process generally called “astral projection.” There are many testimonial reports of people that have also used astral projection to visit what we call the astral realm or plane, talked to the dead there, and have reported back their observations and experiences. Okay. Then there are multiple different categories of afterlife research which provides some basic corresponding and in some cases identical descriptions of what happens at death, how the “dead” live in the astral, what the various regions of the astral are like, etc. Okay. However, that multi-discipline, multi-categorical depth of afterlife and astral research, which has been going on for over a hundred years, has convinced several scientists and former materialists who took the time to examine the available evidence. "Several" seems about right. Again, if you're wrong and you've 'brainwashed' yourself into believing something that isn't true and 'you' die when you body dies . . . what would that say about your view of 'reality'?JVL_{February 8, 2023
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JVL @86 aks,
What convinces you that you have an astral body and an astral home?
First, let me say that under my version of idealism, it's not a matter of what convinces me of an idea or proposition; it's a matter of "what idea or proposition do I choose to guide my experience into?" IOW, reality is ultimately something I am in general directorial control over. I deliberately reprogram or "brainwash" myself into whatever beliefs I desire. Second, though, that is not to say that I can't supply traditional forms of evidence from an externalist perspective. I can, but I want to make it clear that it is not that evidence which "convinces" me of anything. Personally, I have visited my astral home a few times and have been in my astral body, so I have personal experience. This happened through a process generally called "astral projection." There are many testimonial reports of people that have also used astral projection to visit what we call the astral realm or plane, talked to the dead there, and have reported back their observations and experiences. Then there are multiple different categories of afterlife research which provides some basic corresponding and in some cases identical descriptions of what happens at death, how the "dead" live in the astral, what the various regions of the astral are like, etc. Like I said, it's not that evidence which "convinces" me personally; that's not how my mind works. However, that multi-discipline, multi-categorical depth of afterlife and astral research, which has been going on for over a hundred years, has convinced several scientists and former materialists who took the time to examine the available evidence.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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William J Murray: I expect that my consciousness will find itself in my astral body in my astral home much like waking up from a very intense and consistent dream. What convinces you that you have an astral body and an astral home?JVL_{February 8, 2023
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JVL @74 said:
I’m curious . . . what do think will happen to ‘you’ when your ‘body’ dies?
I expect that my consciousness will find itself in my astral body in my astral home much like waking up from a very intense and consistent dream.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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Kairosfocus: recall your complaints? I am thread owner and had a comment go poof in toto, irrecoverable. I get that, just couldn't resist the joke.JVL_{February 8, 2023
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Vividblue said:
Warning you cannot believe anything coming from WJM according to his own words he puts out arguments for the fun of it, it’s strictly entertainment.
This is not exactly true. While it is true that I operate from a fundamental motivation of enjoyment, I have said repeatedly that I strive to be absolutely truthful about what I experience and believe here - even to the point (obviously) of being attacked and ridiculed. The reason for this, as I have said, is that I like to get honest, well-informed feedback and challenges to my perspective because it helps me understand it better by examining aspects or angles that other people may bring to light. This has happened on many occasions here. It's probably the only reason I still participate at all from time to time.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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Origenes said:
Your experience of the sun is internal and you are agnostic about the sun itself having an independent existence of your experience. However, you do hold that other people exist.
I equally hold that the sun exists, so there is no difference between the two in where and how I hold that they exist.
If your ‘argument from internal experience’ is valid against the existence of matter, why is it not equally valid WRT other people?
Because people and things in my experience are not made of matter doesn't mean they do not exist. Do you claim that the experiences that occur in your mind are made of matter?William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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AnimatedDust asked:
WJM, have you been able to spend time with your wife consistently since we last spoke about it?
Well thank you for asking! That's very pleasant of you. I appreciate it. Yes, we are doing extremely well and we spend a lot of time together on a daily basis, mostly exploring and experimenting (in a fun way) various classically "internal" spaces. Fortunately I'm in a situation where I can devote all the time and effort I want to this kind of study of and experimentation with consciousness/mind.William J Murray_{February 8, 2023
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WJM, have you been able to spend time with your wife consistently since we last spoke about it?AnimatedDust_{February 8, 2023
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JVL, recall your complaints? I am thread owner and had a comment go poof in toto, irrecoverable. KFkairosfocus_{February 8, 2023
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WJM @
Ori: ... do you experience the sun as something external to you?
WJM: Of course not. All my experiences of the sun are internal experiences.
Your experience of the sun is internal and you are agnostic about the sun itself having an independent existence of your experience. However, you do hold that other people exist. I am curious to learn why that is, since, like the sun, other people appear to you as internal experiences only. Why is it that you only argue against the existence of matter, to the point that you conclude that we should reject the existence of matter: “Realism has also been scientifically disproved” and “... all we have left, ontologically speaking, is idealism.”? So, my question is: If your ‘argument from internal experience’ is valid against the existence of matter, why is it not equally valid WRT other people?Origenes_{February 8, 2023
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