Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

_{Dave S.
December 20, 2006

Religion

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Religion}

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I found the images of young people in “The Blasphemy Challenge” giving up their immortal souls on a dare disturbing enough to make me weep for them. I’m not rationally convinced we have immortal souls to give up but certainly the possibility exists. Imagine on judgement day that was you in the video and it was being replayed. There’s nothing to gain and everything to lose in this. Please join me in a simple prayer for the young victims of this stunt.

“Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

Comments

Bob OH re Pascal's Wager. Good comparison. If I'd ever read about before it was 30 years ago in Philosophy 101. After reading this I'd have to say I'm essentially in agreement with Pascal.DaveScot_{December 20, 2006
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TerryL: "As one who has made the journey from believer to unbeliever back to believer" Wow! That's interesting. I'd be curious to hear your story.jb_{December 20, 2006
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Austinite There's nothing to lose and everything to gain in saying a little prayer for someone else. If God isn't listening nothing is lost. If God is listening there's much to be gained. Try it and see.DaveScot_{December 20, 2006
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It's BECAUSE they know not what they do that they will not really be damned forever. You have to have undeniable experience of the Holy Spirit and then deny it to be unforgiven. Regarding the comment about the bible not mentioning an immortal soul; here is only one of a pretty long list of references: Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Would that be Richard Dawkins?;)) This isn't the place to get into it but the bible does support the concept of existence before and after this life.dacook_{December 20, 2006
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The athiest ID supporters are hanging out with the Loyal Opposition. They're... somewhere. I'm sure of it. As one who has made the journey from believer to unbeliever back to believer, I can only say I seriously doubt there's a sin God won't forgive. God, who understands all things, understands all too well that we often don't know what we do. Make that "ever."TerryL_{December 20, 2006
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Erasmus, As is plain to anyone with eyes, those young people responding to the Blasphemy Challenge are deluded and parrot verbatim the atheistic tripe as a simple act of juvenile rebellion. Most people who don't believe in the Holy Spirit have better things to do than to make silly videos that propagandize to the benefit of nobody. The Blasphemy Challenge is cud for the stupid and ignorant of modern society that look hopefully to our "atheistic future," when the current 90% of human population that are religionists will repent of their evil ways and blindly follow a senseless proposition that logically leads to meaninglessness, and inevitably to nihilism.Inquisitive Brain_{December 20, 2006
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On the subject of blasphemy: One interpretation of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is that this represents a heart that has become so hardened that one no longer has an interest in seeking God. In this case, when the desire to seek Him is irrevocably atrophied, one is irrevocably lost. Thus, a simple statement like Ã¢â‚¬Å“I deny the Holy SpiritÃ¢â‚¬Â would not constitute blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and would certainly not be irrevocable. In this interpretation, the Ã¢â‚¬Å“unforgivableÃ¢â‚¬Â part is thus an intentionally self-inflicted wound that is invited and comes about through a process. I was an atheist for 43 years and still recovered from it, however, I believe that the older one gets the more likely it is that a state of irrevocability will be reached. On the subject of immortal souls: I found a book by Michael Sabom very interesting: Recollections of Death, A Medical Investigation. This is not the typical near-death experience anecdotal case history collection. Sabom did a carefully controlled medical investigation and came to some surprising conclusions. I don't draw any specific theological conclusions from NDEs, but explaining them away in purely materialistic terms requires an awful lot of fancy footwork.GilDodgen_{December 20, 2006
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Where are the atheist ID supporters I keep hearing about? Seems like some of them should be represented on the Blasphemy Challenge. And the Hindu. And Jew. and all the other big tent members. Something's fishy.Erasmus_{December 20, 2006
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austinite, Dave is consistent in that he acknowledges the possibility of something, even if mentally he is not sure about it. This is called honesty and sincerity, and sure beats dogmatism and cockiness resting on a foundation of marshmallows. Besides, we all do it every day. Do we know for certain how the equity or bond markets will behave in the future? No, but I bet just about everyone reading this is invested in a 401(k) or some equivalent. Students, do you know for certain that your college degree will pay off for you? No, but some of you study hard anyway. So in the end, it is far more important how we live and believe and make decisions based on limited knowledge than filing away some set of dogmatic beliefs in our mental database, to be retrieved only when getting into a debate.Ekstasis_{December 20, 2006
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austinite - This isn't Occam's razor (that could cut both ways). Rather, it's Pascal's wager. BobBob OH_{December 20, 2006
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Dave, There is frequent mention in the Christian Bible of an immortal soul. Immortality is a common element of the Jewish and Christian traditions. If you or realgm would like, I could provide a laundry list of citations from the Christian Bible that conclusively demonstrate this.Inquisitive Brain_{December 20, 2006
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I'm not rationally convinced we have immortal souls to give up but certainly the possibility exists. Imagine on judgement day that was you in the video and it was being replayed. There's nothing to gain and everything to lose in this. That is a very odd mix of beliefs you have there, Dave. You're not sure that there is even such a thing as an immortal soul, but you appear convinced enough about very specific tenets of Christianity that you worry that somehow these people are seriously endangering theirs just by quoting a specific phrase? Biggie Smalls, Biggie Smalls, Biggie Sm.... There's nothing to gain and everything to lose in this. Placing one's faith in the care of Occam's Razor is not recommended. As others have pointed out, most scholars will tell you that "blashpheming the Holy Spirit" is a very specific act that can only be done if you have full knowledge of what such an act entails. i.e. that you believe in the existence of a Judeo-Christian God (as defined by the Bible) and then explicitly reject God and everything He stands for with a full understanding of the consequences. So if they "know not what they do" then there is no chance they are really committing an unpardonable sin.austinite_{December 20, 2006
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jb, Well, to answer your question, since it is so close to Christmas, um, I mean holiday, time, perhaps a bit of the Christmas Carol experience. Oh yes indeed, Sir Dawkins may be visited by the the ghost of Charles Darwin. Instead of being bound in iron chains he will be wrapped in a double helix, of which was not yet discovered. And instead of restlessly roaming the earth, he will be endlessly searching for that warm scummy pond, which he was sure existed in which humanity's first precursor got its jumpstart. Oh yes, old man Charles will announce the visitation of three ghosts. The ghost from the past will feature Plato and the other early ID pioneers. And they will point out such high points of Darwinian evolution such as eugenics, and the recapitulation hoax, and the many fossil frauds. Next will come the ghost of the present, featuring such events that are elevating our intellectual freedom such as the Dover decision. And finally, for the grand finale, the future will unfold. Yes, it will show that someday Darwinian evolution will go the way of the other infamous icons of the past, such as Vladimir Lenin's once gloriously preserved and venerated body -- into the ground. Darwinian evolution will be there in the history books right next to those old, dusty maps of the U.S.S.R -- once not to be messed with, now only to be pitied that so many spent so much on so big a fraud.Ekstasis_{December 20, 2006
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I've started praying for Richard Dawkins. I'm convinced that despite his bewildering beliefs, he is passionate, articulate, savvy, and truly committed to his cause, and if only God could somehow open his eyes, he'd be one of our greatest spokespersons! If only more Christians were as committed to their beliefs as Dawkins is to his.... BTW, I don't think saying "I deny the Holy Spirit" is the blasphemy that the Bible talks about, since these folks don't believe in satan either -- which is the alternative source of power Jesus was referring to. This is just a pathetic gimmick to shock Christians and make headlines. I have no doubt that some of those people could very well believe in God someday and be forgiven. Another thing to pray about.... :)Jared White_{December 20, 2006
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Matteo: "I look at every person like Dawkins as a potential St. Paul, setting himself up for a Damascus moment." I've had the same thought. What an event that would be! Can you imagine.....jb_{December 20, 2006
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Dave, there is no mention anywhere in the Christian Bible of an immortal soul. That is a common element of many pagan religions but it has no place in Christianity. Even if they never change their minds, those kids won't roast forever because they won't live forever.realgm_{December 20, 2006
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It's far more likely that the kids in these videos end up coming to true faith than any number of those who are too indifferent to care either way. The thing I give credit to the militant atheists for is that it matters to them greatly whether God exists or not. I look at every person like Dawkins as a potential St. Paul, setting himself up for a Damascus moment. In the Book of Revelations, the Lord says " I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." I'd say that indifference puts you at far greater risk than open enmity.Matteo_{December 20, 2006
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I couldn't bring myself to watch any of those vids. I took an uncomfortably long look at the home page, trying desperately to convince myself that I wasn't seeing what I was seeing. Obviously, I had to concede the truth. I'll join in your prayers for them. But I'll remind anyone who is a Christian on this board that these poor folks CAN undo thisÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ it's not necessarily permanent. They might, at some point in their lives, change their minds. And that's all it takes. TRoutMacTRoutMac_{December 20, 2006
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