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Shroud of Turin continues to baffle researchers

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In “Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural” (The Independent, 20 December 2011), Michael Day reports,

After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists.

However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax.

Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic.

Actually, anyone familiar with mediaeval technologies (rush lights and donkey power) would discount such claims immediately. Put another way, if mediaeval technologies could produce the Shroud of Turin, the Middle Ages would have been a vastly different time to live in.

But the Independent’s headliner is a bit misleading: What the Enea report said was, “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.”

That’s science working as it should. No fatuous claims are dredged up to explain it away. If we don’t know, we don’t know. Maybe some day we will know all.

Incidentally, the Catholic Church does not claim that the Shroud is authentic (because there is no sure way of doing that). Even if it is a remarkable piece of cloth and no one ever determines how the image was created prior to the twentieth century, that does not prove it is the burial cloth of Christ. The Church says only that it is permitted to Catholics to venerate the Shroud if they wish, on account of the fact that no one has shown that it is not authentic, and it may help someone’s spiritual life.

See also: The Shroud of Turin makes way more sense than water on Mars

Comments
The empirical findings relating to the imprint on the Holy Shroud make this, and a video on YouTube I saw some months ago, rather redundent. The YouTube video is unequivocal about the fraud, citing chapter and verse re the British Museum man's duplicity, as I recall. Nevertheless, it is interesting article: http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/reviews/detail/articolo/sindone-18725/Axel
October 30, 2012
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An important thing to note in the Body of Christ defying gravity as testified to by the Shroud in the resurrection event, is that entropy, the primary (only?) reason why things grow and die in this universe is now shown to be inextricably bound together with gravity.,,,
Entropy of the Universe - Hugh Ross - May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh! Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-is-a-fact-just-like-gravity-is-a-fact-uhoh/
Further notes: Also of interest is the following
“But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.” Roger Penrose - How Special Was The Big Bang? The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462 Condensed notes on The Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin https://docs.google.com/document/d/15IGs-5nupAmTdE5V-_uPjz25ViXbQKi9-TyhnLpaC9U/edit
bornagain77
October 15, 2012
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Surely, the Shroud only continuous to baffle researchers in the sense that event an horizon in the proximity of a Black Hole baffles them. However, in both cases, nothing less than an event horizon has been empirically established in relation the Shroud. And what's more, at least, two miracles apparently took place: 1. The photographic negative, long before photography had been invented; 2. The body of the man defied gravity.Axel
October 15, 2012
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'Even as ‘bull in a china shop’ indelicate humans can be to such gentle and ‘whispered’ loving guidance.' Tee hee. I was talking about God's personal, physical relationship with each of us, bornagain. Like it or lump it, atheists!Axel
October 14, 2012
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The power of the Big Lie resides in the power of most secretive and powerful worldlings who, effectively, run the World. Similarly, the power of the obfuscation of the Big Truth resides with the same people, and for the same reason. Who owns the media and their opulent peers states what 'goes' and what doesn't. But courts love small items of hard evidence that are irrefutable. And honest men are murdered for possessing them. How hilarious then that this event-horizon that occurred to the Shroud, should have been empirically established beyond all peradventure, and be absolutely irrefutable by any insensately furious, atheist scientist!Axel
October 14, 2012
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I hate to be late posting here, but jguy you are incorrect. What ray Rogers proposed was called the maillard reaction and it was based on a theory which was flimsy at best. It was t just the fact that there was 3d information on the shroud, but that it was spatial 3d information which dissipated when the body was more than 10 centimeters (or 2 inches) away from the shroud. In other words the shroud image wasn't formed by body to shroud contact. Another problem with the maillard reaction is it can't explain why there are no side images on the back or frnot of the shroud. If there was a maillard reaction there should be image formation on both sides of the body image. The maillard reaction also doesn't take into account the xray qualities that are on the hands, wrist, jaw, parts of the head and the femur. The maillard reaction wasn't ray Rogers at his scientific best . Ray Rogers was an agnostic that wouldn't allow himself to believe in the supernatural and the maillard reaction was a desperate attempt by Rogers to try to come up with a natural, materialistic explanation of the image of the shroud. If you want to see Rogers at his best read his peer reviewed research that was published in thermochimica acta invalidating the c14 tests that were done in 1988 on the shroud . There has never been a naturalistic explanation of how that image got on the shroud. And no, it's nothing like a portrait whatsoever. It's the only 2d image on earth with 3d spatial information encoded into it. Forensic science has determined that this image was made from a real body. The most reasonable explanation is that the image is of our Lord and it was caused as Jesus went through the resurrection process.wallstreeter43
August 15, 2012
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OT: Here is a very recently uploaded Dr. Craig debate from his UK tour;
William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins: "Does God Exist?", University of Manchester, October 2011 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssq-S5M8wsY
bornagain77
April 10, 2012
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Axel, as to
The centrality of each observer also predicates a personal God, does it not, bornagain?
I certainly find it to be so. Whether one chooses to answer the 'knock at the door' is another matter. But the mechanism, as far as what the best of science can tell us, is certainly in place for each of us to have a personal relationship with God.,,, Even as 'bull in a china shop' indelicate humans can be to such gentle and 'whispered' loving guidance.
Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US
Music:
Flyleaf - All Around Me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN0FFK8JSYE
bornagain77
April 10, 2012
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Part of the strange, LOGICALLY BINDING mosaic of indications and prompts thereof.Axel
April 10, 2012
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The centrality of each observer also predicates a personal God, does it not, bornagain?Axel
April 10, 2012
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bornagain, from what you say about it, I think the vimeo video you linked must be very similar to the one of the female particle-physicist and artist. Must watch it, anyway. I had a nasty turn a bit earlier, watching a video in which they brought out the light and shade of the photographic positive a bit better, but then they morphed Christ's face from the mature, ultra noble and dignified face of the heroically-crucified God/man, into the face of a callow, young, Hollywood film-star type, with very curly, blow-dried (or permed?) hair!Axel
April 10, 2012
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You were reading on the shroud? Were you having a snack on the shroud too? How did you get access to it? (kidding DLH) Just this past weekend, of all weekends (no idea why they picked it), the History Channel had a few shows about the Shroud. They can most likely be viewed on-line.Joe
April 10, 2012
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Having read extensively on the Shroud since the mid '70s, and especially the original scientific investigations, I have found no supportable evidence that it is a forgery. Rather, all original evidence I have seen points to an authentic artifact that shows evidence of events like those described in the gospels. See: See Shroud.com Furthermore, no hypotheses of human formation have held up. The 3D image formed by the density concentration of fibers colored on the outer surface has been discovered but cannot be reproduced. Natural but invisible plasma flows were also found with UV signatures. See also books on the Shroud of Turin.DLH
April 10, 2012
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Jguy, I like the reasoning of b. c. and d., As to a 'contributing' source for light on top of 'biophoton laser light', and granting for the sake of argument that the shroud is authentic, i.e. granting for the sake of argument that Christ was God incarnate in human flesh and granting that death was defeated by God in the resurrection event as witnessed to by the shroud, I submit this additional 'source of light' to resolve the some issues of distortion that you mentioned may occur with 'natural' biophotons (bps): I suggest we look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that we find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as emitting a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light' while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth.
In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ "The Light was brighter than hundreds of suns, but it did not hurt my eyes. I had never seen anything as luminous or as golden as this Light, and I immediately understood it was entirely composed of love, all directed at me. This wonderful, vibrant love was very personal, as you might describe secular love, but also sacred. Though I had never seen God, I recognized this light as the Light of God. But even the word God seemed too small to describe the magnificence of that presence. I was with my Creator, in holy communication with that presence. The Light was directed at me and through me; it surrounded me and pierced me. It existed just for me." - testimony taken from Kimberly Clark Sharp's Near Death Experience http://www.near-death.com/sharp.html
As to the establishing the credibility of NDE's, here is a short overview of the evidence;
The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627
and as to establishing another contributing factor that may help explain the lack of distortion witnessed on the shroud, as well as establishing the physical reality of the tunnels described in NDE's, please note the distortion of 4-D space-time, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when this 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a 'hypothetical' observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)
Approaching The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/
Music and verse
Toby Mac (In The Light) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
bornagain77
April 10, 2012
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bornagain. bold are amendments to prior post: "1. EVIDENCES on SHROUD IMAGE SHAPE. – A.The image shows gradients that correlate well with expected the view depth. – B.The shape of the image does not appear distorted as would be the case with the amine diffusion scenario."JGuy
April 10, 2012
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bornagain. BTW: I mentioned before, but would like to see what you can add... Just to consider what you mentioned before about bio-photons. Start with this assumption & evidence set on the shape of the image: 1.ASSUMPTIONS: -- A.No extra rules were applied during the 3D rendering process than allowing shade density to indicate view depth. 1.SHROUD IMAGE SHAPE. -- A.The image shows gradients that correlate well with expected the view depth. -- B.The shape of the image does not appear distorted as would be the case with Questions... Assuming bio-photons emitting from any organic matter, and int he case of assuming this was Jesus body and the release of photons was unprecedented. If the image on the cloth was formed by bio-photons(hereafter: "bp"), what must be true? I will pose some thoughts... For the image to carry observed detail, it seems that the source of bp must be either: a. In contact with the cloth (or extremely close as in a few millimeters). b. The cloth is parallel to the body, and bp are traveling parallel paths from the source. c. The medium between the body and cloth have a in it the property of a lense. d. Some combination of the above. Objections to these bp scenarios: scenario a. The image [esp. face] shape would be distorted by being stretched out, and depth would be nearly homogenized and thus not congruent with the face observed in evidence 1.A and 1.B. scenario b. Image would be faithful to the evidence 1.B, but there seems to be no reason that depth would be indicated with varying densities of bp. i.e. Why/how would bp densities change? scenario c. This has the same problem as scenario b., but is a more complicated speculative mechanism. Occams rasor seems favorable. scenario d.??? From this, I think the thing that needs to be addressed is why would bp densities change across the image. Any ideas on how this would occur? One problem seems to be that bp would not coincidentally emit more from a part of the body close to the cloth versus one further way...assuming bp are traveling parallel paths, the densities would not change from the source to the cloth. This would give a detailed silhouette but lack any gradients to indicate depth. Thoughts?JGuy
April 10, 2012
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bornagain. My approach to this thread was with no background on having read any papers on the shroud. Though I was familiar with it about as much as one is familiar with an acquainted person. So, no significant time or effort invested in this to be embarrassed. Posted comments were geared, from the start, at conclusions on the shroud based on what seemed like facets that could be possible by some other natural process or forgery - since forgers have existed throughout time with various motivations. I posted at least one link to a possible method sans UV light, and I was hoping from the context of when and how I posted it, that anyone reading [you or others] could see that I was probing and not making positive assertions... here was the preface to that link above:
Just perusing some online stuff. Has anyone here considered this explanation for the image?
So, don't take me as close minded on this. If anything, my approach should be helpful - at least to me - as I am asking questions, throwing out potential rebuttals and dismissing claims that are not so fantastic. If the conclusion of the shroud is valid, then those making the conclusions should not come off as hostile or demeaning towards attempts at critical suppositions or questions. I would rather be dismissive of subjective reasoning and those that may not actually be as fantastic as suggested. Emotionalism goes nowhere fast, I hope you agree... For example, but not that you held these positions: -the technique(s) to render a 3D image are not fantastic exclusive evidence. -that an image can be rendered into a 3D image is not fantastic evidence. -making an 2D image that can be rendered to 3D does not yet seem fantastic either. However, I concede that to produce an image that can be readily rendered with such a process would be difficult to produce, and admittedly I can not identify or conceive of a process..yet. Though it does not lead to a conclusion of any sort yet, the field seems to be narrowed. Being particularly difficult to make or at least difficult to conceive is the reason I would be more biased against the shroud as forgery. In retrospect, as you were indicating, I agree the amine approach would lead to a blurred image. And if the shroud was wrapped around the body it would probably lose most of the gradients to indicate depth. I'll think about it some more, and propose some ideas. BTW: I could have googled [errr...searched!] for the "LAMB" info. One of the reasons I asked you for a link was because you have obviously put more time and effort into this. I'd rather bypass amateurish websites, and see where you find the evidence most compelling..to start. Thanks for the link, I will check it out.JGuy
April 10, 2012
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Jguy, let's just for the sake of argument hold that the Shroud is authentic, and that it bears witness of the most momentous, miraculous, event to ever occur on the face of earth, indeed that it bears witness to the most momentous, miraculous, event to ever occur in this universe. The defeating of death itself by incarnate God. Our Lord Jesus Christ! If this audacious claim is so then we should witness certain characteristics on the Shroud. One thing we should witness is we should see gravity being defied. You may ask, 'why should we see gravity being defied?'. The reason why is that entropy, the primary reason why things grow old and die in this universe, in inextricably bound up with the 4-D space-time of gravity:
Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh! Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged. Entropy of the Universe - Hugh Ross - May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)."
And as was also noted in post 32 we find gravity being 'defied' in the evidence gleaned from the Shroud: As well as is noted here:
Particle Radiation from the Body - M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit?hl=en_US
Moreover a event horizon is something else we would 'naturally expect' to see if this 4-D space-time of death and decay was truly overcome by Christ, and this is also inexplicably found in the evidence gleaned from the Shroud
THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. - Isabel Piczek - Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation
Moreover, to add a little more icing on the cake, the number one problem in physics today is a reconciliation of Quantum Mechanics and the 4-D space-time of General Relativity into a 'theory of everything':
Quantum Mechanics and Relativity – The Collapse Of Physics? – video – with notes as to plausible reconciliation that is missed by materialists http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6597379/ THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to today's physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics. However, these two pillars of modern science were bound to be incompatible. "The universe of general relativity is a smooth rubber sheet. It is continuous and flowing, never sharp, never pointy. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, describes a jerky and discontinuous universe. What the two theories have in common - and what they clash over - is zero.",, "The infinite zero of a black hole -- mass crammed into zero space, curving space infinitely -- punches a hole in the smooth rubber sheet. The equations of general relativity cannot deal with the sharpness of zero. In a black hole, space and time are meaningless.",, "Quantum mechanics has a similar problem, a problem related to the zero-point energy. The laws of quantum mechanics treat particles such as the electron as points; that is, they take up no space at all. The electron is a zero-dimensional object,,, According to the rules of quantum mechanics, the zero-dimensional electron has infinite mass and infinite charge. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htm
Yet Godel showed that you can't have a 'complete' 'theory of everything' without God:
THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.
Yet if we allow consciousness its 'proper' role in Quantum Mechanics,,,
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
,,,and if we allow that Christ was God incarnate who actually did defeat the death inherent in the entropic space-time of General Relativity,,,
The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” – Kurt Gödel – (Gödel is considered by many to be the greatest mathematician of the 20th century) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
,,,then we find a compelling reconciliation between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics within the resurrection event as testified to by the Shroud that agrees with Godel's incompleteness theorem!
General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin - updated video http://vimeo.com/34084462
further notes:
Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US
Verse and Music:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Revelation Song - Phillips Craig & Dean W/Lyrics Christ-Passion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X14tv9QJT94
bornagain77
April 9, 2012
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jguy, and all you have to do is prove that a diffusing gas emitting from a corpse can produce a fairly concise 3-D photographic negative hologram on a linen clothe. Good luck with that since one problem is that distortion will be introduced once you wrap the shroud around the face to try to prevent to much distortion from the diffusing gas. Here are some other techniques you might want to check out if that one doesn't cut it for you (which it won't):
Camera obscura light-sensitive silver compounds applied to the cloth autooxidation scorching Shadow Shroud Hypothesis - Sunlight thru glass etc. etc.
Yet jguy, these all fail for one reason or another. But, You are welcome to try! Brilliant men have literally racked their brains trying to figure it out. The Shroud is literally the most studied artifact by science. Here is a sample of the papers and studies published thus far:
Bibliography of Published STURP Papers http://www.shroud.com/78papers.htm More Shroud Peer Review references: http://shroud.wikispaces.com/REFERENCES Scientific Papers and Articles on Shroud http://www.shroud.com/papers.htm etc.. etc.. etc..
And after all this research, scientists, and the public at large, are STILL absolutely confounded as to how the Shroud image formed! This should give you a big hint jguy!!! It all comes down to this jguy;
How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581
Verse and Music:
John 20: 3-8 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. Third Day - Creed - Acoustic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxEFqjH9G9Y
bornagain77
April 9, 2012
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jguy, I also find it funny that the one piece of evidence you actually did submit (the paper by Rogers) was so embarrassing for you since Rogers was the one who overturned the Carbon Dating.
Embarrassing? Really? I have not even discussed radiocarbon dating in this thread. The topic I was submitting was about chemical reactions on the cloth.JGuy
April 9, 2012
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wgbutler and Axel, I just uploaded this:
Shroud Of Turin In 3-D Hologram - Face and Body - Both Front And Back - video http://vimeo.com/40036132
Please note that both the front and back of the Body present fairly undistorted views. As well, please note how the back and buttocks of the Body are not flattened as would be expected if the Body had been laying flat on a stone slab. As well, please note the fairly undistorted high quality view of the Body. This fairly undistorted, anatomically correct, high quality view is not to be expected if the shroud had been wrapped around the body. Thus this is what gives us reason to believe that 1. The Shroud had to be flat on both sides of the Body when the image was made. And 2. Light was emitted from The Body when the image was made. And 3. The Body was 'defying' gravity when the image was made.bornagain77
April 9, 2012
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Sorry. One of those Youtube links I must have got from one of bornagain77's posts above.Axel
April 9, 2012
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You guys should find these video clips interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRB16BARvz0&feature=relatedAxel
April 9, 2012
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BA77, I'm 99.9% certain that JGuy is just another internet atheist masquerading as a Christian trying to plant seeds of doubt in the minds of believers. If I had any doubt that he wasn't this type of person, the whole "common cause" remark about Chimpanzees and humans pretty much outed him. Athiests love to do this, especially around major Christian holidays. It's amazing how 2,000 years after the advent of Christianity we still see non-believers masquerading as Christians (as they did in the times of Paul the Apostle) attacking the faith. The more things change, the more they stay the same. I have to confess curiosity as to why the atheists are so fixated on the Shroud of Turin. An atheist group paid Italian chemist Garlashelli to create a fake replica in an attempt to discredit the Shroud just a few years ago. This is clearly something that is on their minds. The problem for them is, even if they are successful in convincing a bunch of people that the Shroud is a fake or that it has nothing to do with the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, the fact still remains that Jesus died and was crucified, and they will have to stand before Him in the Great Judgement and give an account of all of their deeds. BTW, here is a link which discusses the evidence by Hebrew University botanist Avinoam Danin which found that the Shroud contains pollen from plants that only grow in the Jerusalem area and blossom in the Passover season. He also found pollen from the plant that was used to make the crown of thorns. This is pretty remarkable stuff.wgbutler
April 9, 2012
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As to your request for a photograph with the letters on it. A little search would have given you this: http://cdn-3-service.phanfare.com/images/external/3644101_4771140_107498364_Web_3/0_0_788c671963c6f9f210a07114d04fac37_1 Here is another readily accessible site that you should have easily found yourself if you were honestly seeking instead of just being defensively argumentative: The Shroud of Turin in 3-D http://shroud3d.com/ FINDINGS IN THE THREE DIMENSIONAL MATERIALS http://shroud3d.com/findings/findings-in-the-three-dimensional-materialsbornagain77
April 9, 2012
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well jguy, like I said before, you are welcome to all your doubts, but as for myself, a picture is worth a thousand words:
Shroud of Turin in 3-D – The Holographic Experience – Face & Body – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5889891/ Shroud Of Turin – Photographic Negative – 3D Hologram – The Lamb – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/
jguy, I also find it funny that the one piece of evidence you actually did submit (the paper by Rogers) was so embarrassing for you since Rogers was the one who overturned the Carbon Dating. ,,, Moreover just a little research on your part would have saved you this embarrassment. Thus why did you jump so quickly to put it forth? There again comes the question of your motives. You simply have not put forth the honest effort that would be indicative of someone who was truly open to the possibility that the Shroud may be real and seeking for the truth, but instead you have actions that are indicative of someone who is less than forthright!. And from your subsequent responses, after your embarrasment with Rogers, I see you are even more inclined to try to raise doubts than to ever honestly investigate the evidence. Because of such consistent action on your part, this scripture comes readily to mind; Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.bornagain77
April 9, 2012
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(amazingly I’ve been through exactly this same type of argumentation many times before with neo-Darwinists!)
Funny. Other than finding it amazing, I actually felt the same about your fervent argumentation. Because nothing presented [yet], that I have read, has any real objective substance that leads me to conclude, "Whoa, that must be supernatural!" -- And this is a case where one must not assume it true to interpret the data. About the 3D video. I've seen that video before. I don't find it amazing that the image lifts off better or worse than the photo and sketch. However, because the depth is better defined. It seems less likely that it was the result of an artistic forger, but rather does represent the image a real body, where distance from the cloth was the cause of varying levels of discoloration. By the way, the method they used is nearly as I described. Except for the assumptions I proposed to associate the relative depth regions. If assumptions were not used in the rendering, this is why I would tend to believe it was an actual body image. But that would still be far from a conclusion that it is the burial cloth of Jesus. Excerpt:
THE GRAYSCALE A densitometer measures the differences in density in a photograph. In a black and white photograph, black areas are dense with information and white areas are void of information. The in-between areas are many shades of gray, from almost white to almost black. You can assign a different number, or value to each shade of gray, for example on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 represents black and 10 white, all numbers between 1 and 10 represent various shades of grays. This is a grayscale or gray map, where different numbers represent different densities. Subsequently, these numbers are translated mathematically into vertical height on the Z axis.
Regarding the two observations:
1. The image appears more distinct at a distance and fades when viewed at certain angles, particularly as one comes closer to the Shroud. The image is faint, without well-defined boundaries so the eye has no point of reference and it appears simply as variation of the background density.
This is true for almost any art where a contained image is composed of degree's of shading. i.e. Up close I can expect no identifiable features. But further away, the entire structure in the image will seem to just appear. If this image was formed the way one man supposed many years ago by amines reacting with substances on the cloth [hypothetically :. notwithstanding that he retracted later]. I suspect the discoloration would have a better chance than the DaVinci sketch to indicate depth.
2. After the fire in 1997, Aldo Guerreschi, a professional photographer who is very familiar with the image, was asked to photo-document the examination of the Shroud. He observed the following: “Moving around the table, (with the Shroud laid out horizontally) I saw this image so faded as if to practically disappear, while from other angles, it seemed as if the figure were almost outside the sheet”.
That is just a subjective observations. This is the kind of stuff that reminds me of the type of Darwinist argumentation, such as the same number of digits on human hands and chimps as evidence of common descent. What does it exactly prove? At least with the Darwinist's argument, we probably at least agree the cause must be common. Anyway, the image may very well appear to have depth, but so does red shapes appear to stand out against blue shapes. And perhaps the art I described above may have the same effect if laid out on a table. I don't have such art near me, neither do I have the shroud to look at for myself either. Even so... what conclusions could I reasonably derive from that if I made the same observation on my perception of an images depth? That it must be supernatural?! :/ At best, I will give more credence that this is likier the result of an actual body. About the "LAMB" evidence. I could not see what they were seeing in the video. Nothing struck me as a symbol. i saw blobs of shading at best. If you know of any better visuals that distinguish any Hebrew characters in the shroud, please post a link.JGuy
April 9, 2012
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wgbutler, it does make you wonder of motives. ,,, As well wgbutler you may be interested in this Shroud Documentary, that I recently found, and that was recently uploaded to youtube, which is a overview of the evidence on the Shroud before the carbon dating was overturned. Though a bit dated, and not particularly comprehensive, I still thought the documentary was very well done:
The Shroud Of Turin Documentary (Burial Cloth Of Christ?) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHUGi6pLN8k
bornagain77
April 9, 2012
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BA77, I have to admit, there does seem to be a bit of that perverse denial of extraordinary evidence that we typically see from the Darwinists. I'm starting to wonder if JGuy really is a Christian or simply some atheist masquerading as a Christian in an attempt to gain credibility in being skeptical about the Shroud. (And note that I am NOT saying that all Christians have to believe that the Shroud is authentic. But I think that most people who do not think it is authentic are either a) simply ignorant of the overwhelming evidence for it, or b) hyper skeptical about anything that they cannot personally see and touch, or c) biased against the Shroud because of their worldview, these people WANT the Shroud to be a fraud or at least no big deal. This is clearly the bias I am reading in JGuy's messages). I find it puzzling how an informed person like JGuy can just sweep all the evidence aside (the pollen evidence, the forensic evidence, the blood patterns, etc) as no big deal and then claim that any old process can create a 3D holographic image in photo-negative without spelling out how that works. The simplest way to claim that any old process can do this is to produce another artifact that has these same sorts of properties, and to date I'm not aware of any other object that has those special properties. Even if those properties were not there, all the other evidence (the bilirubin in the blood, the pollen from Jerusalem area plants, the exact matching of the forensic evidence with the narrative from the gospels, the anatomical match with the Sudarium of Oviedo) would give us a compelling artifact that validated the crucifixion narrative in the gospels.wgbutler
April 9, 2012
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Well jguy, you keep saying the 'photographic negative-3-D hologram image 'can' have a simple explanation yet you never produce a simple explanation. (amazingly I've been through exactly this same type of argumentation many times before with neo-Darwinists!) In fact it seems you are trying to say that the Shroud is not really all that special and that any ole photograph or painting can produce such a 3-D hologram in such a way as the Shroud has. Yet you have offered no such comparable examples of a photograph or painting producing 3-D holographic information such as the shroud:
Shroud Of Turin's Unique 3 Dimensionality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041182
So once again I beg to differ from you on your seeming gross lack of appreciation for what you are actually dealing with, and with your simplistic 'rationalizations' that have no merit to the evidence at hand. ,,, Here is the paper on how the hologram was derived for the Shroud from the '3-D' information' on the shroud if you care to actually look at the 3-D hologram evidence instead of just dismissing it with whatever convenient excuse you can find.
THE SHROUD OF TURIN, THE HOLOGRAPHIC EXPERIENCE There were two observations in particular that caught my attention 1. The image appears more distinct at a distance and fades when viewed at certain angles, particularly as one comes closer to the Shroud. The image is faint, without well-defined boundaries so the eye has no point of reference and it appears simply as variation of the background density. 2. After the fire in 1997, Aldo Guerreschi, a professional photographer who is very familiar with the image, was asked to photo-document the examination of the Shroud. He observed the following: “Moving around the table, (with the Shroud laid out horizontally) I saw this image so faded as if to practically disappear, while from other angles, it seemed as if the figure were almost outside the sheet”. These two observations hint at holographic qualities, indicating that apart from the grayscale with the built-in 3D information, there might be holographic information present. In order to investigate this possibility, I decided to form a team of experts and to produce holograms, based on the scientifically proven 3D information in the grayscale of the image. That led us in a different direction of the 3D research with some unexpected results. http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p24.pdf
This is perhaps the most 'unexpected' result to came from the hologram:
Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205
bornagain77
April 9, 2012
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