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Shroud of Turin continues to baffle researchers

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In “Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural” (The Independent, 20 December 2011), Michael Day reports,

After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists.

However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax.

Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic.

Actually, anyone familiar with mediaeval technologies (rush lights and donkey power) would discount such claims immediately. Put another way, if mediaeval technologies could produce the Shroud of Turin, the Middle Ages would have been a vastly different time to live in.

But the Independent’s headliner is a bit misleading: What the Enea report said was, “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.”

That’s science working as it should. No fatuous claims are dredged up to explain it away. If we don’t know, we don’t know. Maybe some day we will know all.

Incidentally, the Catholic Church does not claim that the Shroud is authentic (because there is no sure way of doing that). Even if it is a remarkable piece of cloth and no one ever determines how the image was created prior to the twentieth century, that does not prove it is the burial cloth of Christ. The Church says only that it is permitted to Catholics to venerate the Shroud if they wish, on account of the fact that no one has shown that it is not authentic, and it may help someone’s spiritual life.

See also: The Shroud of Turin makes way more sense than water on Mars

Comments
(though you don’t mention a method, you just hold to the belief that there may be a method)
It's not a baseless belief. It's actually fairly to understand how this would work. If it is possible to measure gradients in images, it is possible to assign meaning to the gradients [such as changes in depth]. If we know the nature of the structure of what the image is of [in this case a human body], we can relate gradient regions to each other using only a handful of reasonable assumptions. Examples: - Regarding the face: the image peak is obviously enough the tip of the nose. - Cheeks gradients toward the outside take us further into the depth field. - Eye gradients are deeper than the peak of the cheeks. - etc.. And this works into a simple 3D image. The ability to rotate is a simple enough with any 3D software like 3D-Max, Lightwave, etc.. The new 3D image will have a limited rotational range, and this is because the depth is only derived a single side view. This is why the 3D image that seems to get raves here is only shown to rotate a few degree's in the video. Again. Let me re-iterate that I hold no position on the authenticity of the cloth. I simple choose to squelch any conclusions based on things that appear uniquely extraordinary, but actually can have simple explanations.JGuy
April 9, 2012
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semi OT:
Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video http://vimeo.com/39982578
bornagain77
April 8, 2012
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Jguy, as to your dismissal of the significance, and uniqueness, of the 3-D nature of the image, and trying to come up with some 'natural way to make the 3-D image (though you don't mention a method, you just hold to the belief that there may be a method) all I can say is that I went the complete opposite way as you are going and tried to understand the 3-D image on the 2-Dimensional surface of the linen from the 'spiritual' angle:
Speed Of Light - Near Death Experience Tunnel - Turin Shroud - video http://vimeo.com/18371644
bornagain77
April 8, 2012
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Jguy, you mention a paper that was coauthored by the late Raymond Rogers. Perhaps you should look more closely at Rogers subsequent work on the Shroud after that paper:
Raymond Rogers' letter to the editor, skeptical inquirer magazine http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/Joe-Nickell/rogers.htm
Indeed jguy, it seems that Rogers had a complete change of heart towards what he called 'the lunatic fringe', after that paper you cited, as this following video makes clear:
New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE
The following is the main peer reviewed paper, by Rogers, which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating:
Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm
Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory:
Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/
This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers' paper:
“Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. - Robert Villarreal - Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193
bornagain77
April 8, 2012
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Just perusing some online stuff. Has anyone here considered this explanation for the image? http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n74part2.pdf Excerpt:
In this work Rogers and Arnoldi have been able to show that the image could have been formed through a sequence of well known scientific steps and without any mystery or unproven scientific theory. Their hypothesis provides an explanation for every aspect of the image that has been noted
BTW: A question on the 3D images found in some online videos about the shroud. What is it about the 3D imaging that some seem to find remarkable? Yes, the effect is cool, but I don't think it is one that requires intelligent coding of the image. Moreso, it seems to requires intelligent manipulation of the image. I imagine it is possible to produce such 3D imagery with almost any image where shading indicates at depth.JGuy
April 8, 2012
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jguy as to 'alien abduction', well I'm not, and never have been, big on any of that. Though my belief that they were 'demonic' was tempered by a passage of scripture that is uncannily 'UFO-like':
Ezekiel 1:16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.
Yet despite this passage of scripture, my view of 'Alien Abductions' has basically remained the same as yours, but not so much 'demonic, but that the vast majority of them are of a 'paranoid/delusional' nature, Much like the type of Alien Abduction reflected in this song:
AWOLNATION - "SAIL" (Official Video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPtSKimbjOU
bornagain77
April 8, 2012
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jguy as to
Regarding your thoughts & links on NDE’s and how they seem to be reported differently globally.
Indeed, contrary to what is popularly believed, I have found that NDE's of foreign cultures are very different from the extremely pleasant NDE's commonly reported in Judeo-Christian cultures. I've referenced this following study before:
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm
But also, I have these following studies that reveal a stark contrast between foreign NDE's and Judeo-Christian NDE's:
A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm Near-Death Experiences of Hindus Pasricha and Stevenson's research Except: "Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] "I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener.,,, In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the "black man" had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts: Excerpt: "When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you." When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains. http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/NearDeath.html Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE's reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE's to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Zhi-ying/Zhi-ying-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1992-11-39-48.pdf Researching Muslim NDEs, on the web at the NDERF home page, I find that there are only a handful of Muslim NDE experiences out of the thousands of NDE's they have listed on their web site. There is only one really deep Muslim NDE in which there is a reference to "the Light". Not surprisingly, this NDE occurred to a teenage boy. In the handful of somewhat deep adult Muslim NDEs that I have read about, the Muslim NDES never mentioned "the Light", "Supreme Being" or a "Being of Light". If this holds steady for all adult Muslim NDEs, then this will fall into stark contrast to the majority of deep Judeo/Christian NDE testimonies of adults for the western world.
As well, I found that the rare exceptions, besides the children, of a positive NDE in foreign cultures, that were often touted as proof that foreign cultures have the same type of extremely pleasant NDE's as Judeo-Christian cultures have, were most often had by people who had grown up in a Judeo-Christian culture and then moved to the foreign culture. ,,, Here is a overview of the typical Judeo-Christian NDE:
Near Death Experience - The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/
Verse and Music:
Luke 23:42-43 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Fastball - The Way - Near Death Experience(NDE) - Song http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4193448/
bornagain77
April 8, 2012
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JGuy, I'm a devout Christian who has for years fervently believed in the crucifixion and divine resurrection of the historical Jesus. Up until a few years ago, I believed that the Shroud of Turin was a fraud based on the 1988 carbon dating testing. I fell into the trap of dismissing it outright and stopped reading and researching as soon as I read that line in any number of newspaper articles. Then a few years ago I went to an apologetics conference where the Shroud of Turin was being discussed by Gary Haberman. This greatly piqued my interest and I became obsessed and started researching this non-stop. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that this is the authentic burial shroud of Jesus Christ. There is no conceivable explanation of how something like this could have been forged or created by natural processes. Off the top of my head, experts have determined that it is forensically accurate down to the smallest detail. Even the blood samples have the presence of biluribin, which is a hormone produced in the blood when someone is tortured. Anatomically, it perfectly matches up with the Sudarium of Oviedo, and leading botanists have traced the pollen on the Shroud of plants that only grow in the Jerusalem area in the Spring. The victim on the Shroud has wounds that perfectly match the injuries inflicted on Jesus as recorded in the gospels (and keep in mind that Jesus was a unique crucifixion). The vast majority of crucified people did not experience all the things that Jesus experienced in the gospels. Furthermore, the image (created by the resurrection event) is on top of the blood stains, and even the the Italian chemist who was paid by the atheist organization to duplicate the Shroud of Turin was confounded by this detail. Then there is the rather unusual fact that the Shroud contains 3 dimensional information and the image shows up in the photographic negative. I'd be interested in hearing your explanation of the Shroud. If it is not a forgery, then what is it? And how did this occur naturalistically? Finally, it is worth noting that non-Christian scientists who have studied the Shroud have come to the conclusion that it is authentic, and many of them have converted to Christianity as a result of their research.wgbutler
April 8, 2012
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jguy as to:
'It was not meant to in-authenticate the shroud, but to raise a question about for any coherent explanation between the various sources [one was you, the other was a video that depicted a floating sheet]. In my view one was not ‘extremely close’.'
Sorry for the ambiguity that led to your confusion. I meant 'extremely close' as to mean in an order of a few inches as opposed to a few, or several, feet as was once suggested by the camera obscura method proposed to be used by DaVinci. I will correct for that ambiguity to make it clear. Though I'm certainly no expert on the Shroud, in my studies of the Shroud literature, I am impressed by the pattern that has emerged. The Shroud simply refuses to be falsified. Much like the proposed evidence for neo-Darwinism, every evidence proposed against the Shroud, that holds it is a forgery, simply falls apart on scrutiny. Time and again the skeptics are shown to be wrong in their proposals. But perhaps the one thing that has made me side strongly in favor of authenticity is the clarity of the 'photographic negative-3-D holographic' image, which wasn't even entirely discovered until the 1970's, as was referenced here:
Shroud Of Turin – Photographic Negative – 3D Hologram – The Lamb – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/
It is beyond incredible for me to believe that some anonymous genius would make a forged image that would take the best of modern science to reveal the secrets of! Especially when madern science cannot replicate the image in 'all its facets'! The image on the shroud simply cannot be made by hand. The clarity of the image clearly reflects reality and does not reflect forgery. The details noted by forensic pathology are uncannily accurate. Here is a small glimpse of the evidence from that angle:
Forensic evidence of the shroud of turin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYG6wETAxjI
There is much more evidence available on the web that can be attained with not too much effort at a search. The evidence is simply overwhelming that the shroud reflects reality. Now once one accepts that the evidence supports the fact that the shroud is authentic, then the question becomes, "Well, if it was not forged then how did the image form on the shroud?". Here once again modern science, as is so often the case with modern science, offers clues as well deepening our wonder. I've referenced 'biophotons' here,, https://uncommondescent.com/religion/shroud-of-turin-continues-to-baffle-researchers/#comment-423370 ,,,which point out that the biophotons, which 'we are swimming in' at the molecular level, are described as thus,,,
Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light.
As well, as to establishing a plausible mechanism, it is noted here that consciousness is integral to reality:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
And when consciousness is allowed it 'proper role' in reality, we find:
How the Power of Intention Alters Matter - Dr. William A. Tiller Excerpt: "Most people think that the matter is empty, but for internal self consistency of quantum mechanics and relativity theory, there is required to be the equivalent of 10 to 94 grams of mass energy, each gram being E=MC2 kind of energy. Now, that's a huge number, but what does it mean practically? Practically, if I can assume that the universe is flat, and more and more astronomical data is showing that it's pretty darn flat, if I can assume that, then if I take the volume or take the vacuum within a single hydrogen atom, that's about 10 to the minus 23 cubic centimeters. If I take that amount of vacuum and I take the latent energy in that, there is a trillion times more energy there than in all of the mass of all of the stars and all of the planets out to 20 billion light-years. That's big, that's big. And if consciousness allows you to control even a small fraction of that, creating a big bang is no problem." - Dr. William Tiller - has been a professor at Stanford U. in the Department of materials science & Engineering http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/williamtiller.shtml
And indeed we find a 'new event horizon" on the shroud very similar to the Big Bang:
A Particle Physicist Looks at the Turin Shroud – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg
Perhaps you will imagine that a 'Big Bang' type even would disintegrate the shroud, yet the common picture that is imagined for the Big Bang is actually not the type of event it was:
"The Big Bang represents an immensely powerful, yet carefully planned and controlled release of matter, energy, space and time. All this is accomplished within the strict confines of very carefully fine-tuned physical constants and laws. The power and care this explosion reveals exceeds human mental capacity by multiple orders of magnitude." Prof. Henry F. Schaefer
jguy, the evidence of how the image could have possibly formed 'supernaturally', like a gigantic puzzle, starts to become easier and easier to see once the pieces start falling in place for a person. Amazingly the 'pattern of evidence includes the reconciliation of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics: A shortened form of the overall pattern of evidence is here:
Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US
overview here:
Let There be light http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2012/02/let-there-be-light.html
Verse and Music:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Natalie Grant - Alive (Resurrection music video) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX
bornagain77
April 8, 2012
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@bornagain77 OFF TOPIC: Regarding your thoughts & links on NDE's and how they seem to be reported differently globally. I can't recall the source(s), but maybe you know something of this claim: That alien abduction claims appear across all demographics - by sex, age, nationality, etc - except one: born-again Christians. I first read that as a statistic in a book, but I can not recall the title. It was about 7 or 8 years ago. I accept the stat since I am compelled that such encounters (i.e. the fourth+ kind) are demonic - if not simply explained as psychological. Psychological here imply materialistic(e.g. chemical) causes and/or self deluded. Would you share what you know or think on this statistic and/or topic?JGuy
April 8, 2012
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@bornagain77
jguy, the ‘extremely close’ I noted and wrapped around which you imagined inauthenticates the shroud are two very different points. My point of extreme closeness arises from direct observation of the shroud, and your ‘wrapped around’ arises from your a-priori imagination of how it should have ‘naturally’ occurred.
My question on the 'closeness' was about the literal distance of the shroud to the body [assuming a body]. It was not meant to in-authenticate the shroud, but to raise a question about for any coherent explanation between the various sources [one was you, the other was a video that depicted a floating sheet]. In my view one was not 'extremely close'. But as I confessed, this is really a matter of reference frame [i.e. it's partially subjective]. The use of 'extremely close' that you used above, in it's context, pertains to this distance...not the distance of observation: 'since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made' Rather than get further drawn into such details at this point, let me clarify that I do not see this as a forgery or authentic. I merely surmised a generic approach on how it might be forged. Anyway, I see it more of a controversial historical cloth, that so far, for me, deems no claim of what it actually is. I suppose the scientists are correct to state essentially to each his own view. It may very well be an image of a body or some elaborate forgery with some simple techniques we might be overlooking. Images seem compelling for some reasons. But leave uncertainty that it was the cloth associated with Christ's resurrection.
I find your laser intensity point of ‘vaporizing silicon’ to be a bit superfluous, since the laser experiments were conducted in a optics laboratory and clearly they were not just trying to be sensational but were referencing a specific characteristic of intensity that needed to be achieved to accomplished the effect on the cloth they were seeking to attain.,,,
I'm not trying to be argumentative. But what specific characteristic of intensity regarding UV light is there than the energy dose rate and/or perhaps spectral range? It seems like it would be great if we could prove this was the actual burial cloth of Jesus. Maybe though, it wouldn't be? For example, it would be bad if then people would fixate on the cloth and venerate the image. I don't know. Anyway, still I don't think we can be sure, and the various re-compilations on how to view the image don't seem to prove it, though they can be interesting to view.JGuy
April 8, 2012
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I'm enjoying this conversation immensely. I haven't been updated on the Shroud since the old days at ARN, when Leonard kept us informed of the latest news.Bilbo I
April 7, 2012
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jguy, the 'extremely close' I noted and wrapped around which you imagined inauthenticates the shroud are two very different points. My point of extreme closeness arises from direct observation of the shroud, and your 'wrapped around' arises from your a-priori imagination of how it should have 'naturally' occurred. But no one ever claimed Jesus rising from the dead was a 'natural' event! In fact it has been repeated referred to as the most momentous miracle to ever happen in human history. I find your laser intensity point of 'vaporizing silicon' to be a bit superfluous, since the laser experiments were conducted in a optics laboratory and clearly they were not just trying to be sensational but were referencing a specific characteristic of intensity that needed to be achieved to accomplished the effect on the cloth they were seeking to attain.,,, As to your other doubts of it being a forgery, well you are welcome to them, but as for myself, a picture is worth a thousand words,,, Shroud of Turin in 3-D - The Holographic Experience - Face & Body - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5889891/ Shroud Of Turin - Photographic Negative - 3D Hologram - The Lamb - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/bornagain77
April 7, 2012
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I concede then that they admit they did not replicate the effect exactly. But not that this somehow necessitates a supernatural explanation. I really didn't want to get into a research project on a cloth that has been dragged through centuries of controversy. We don't even have the original scriptures available in such a fashion. What strikes me most is how some people seem sure that this IS the image of Jesus burnt(?) into a cloth. A cloth that we do have knowledge of as having a debated/unverifiable origin by scholars [e.g. Calvin] a half a millennium ago or more. So, should we know for certain? Because it is too hard to replicate the effect exactly? Oh, funny, regarding the shadows of my mind...
jguy, your other objection is not even referenced ,,,
In one of the videos an expert of some sort talks about the sheet floating parallel to explain the image above the body and the light then having to emitting I guess perpendicular to the sheets, but in another view I vaguely recall the sheet needed to be very close to the body…which is it?
,,, save to some ‘vague recollection”,,, exactly how is this helpful, jguy, since you provide no source for me to refute? Am I suppose to refute what you ‘vaguely recall’? Sorry jguy, I shall not chase shadows of your mind!
Funny that I found the reference was you :P
Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right:
I did not think extremely close would be a sheet floating over a body (i.e. and not touching it)...unless one were to imagine a relatively large reference frame. Was the sheet floating or not? Full circle?:
Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at Pavia University, told The Independent: "The implications are... that the image was formed by a burst of UV energy so intense it could only have been supernatural. But I don't think they've done anything of the sort."
Regarding the UV explanation. If mere UV couldn't generate the effect sufficiently, then why would he say this? Doesn't this imply back that mere UV [albeit intense] would be sufficient? Also, I'm a little perplexed at why it's said a UV source today could not generate sufficient intensity to produce the effect. But we can generate UV with enough intensity to vaporize silicon, make holes in printer heads and build plasma screens. I've worked on high powered UV laser systems. Surely, we already have the capability to not just discolor linen, but to blast through it. Perhaps, I'm missing something. I hope it's not an explanation invoking particle physics. :SJGuy
April 7, 2012
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Further note:
General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462
excerpt from video description:
Thus, when one allows God into math, as Godel clearly indicated must ultimately be done to keep math from being 'incomplete', (and when one accepts that the shroud may very well be authentic) then there actually exists a very credible reconciliation between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into a the much sought after 'Theory of Everything'! Yet it certainly is one that many dogmatic Atheists will deny the relevance of (as they do with anything and everything else that remotely points to God).,,,
As a footnote; Godel, who proved you cannot have a mathematical 'Theory of Everything', without allowing God to bring completeness to the 'Theory of Everything', also had this to say
The God of the Mathematicians - Goldman Excerpt: As Godel told Hao Wang, 'Einstein's religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza's god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.- Kurt Godel - (Godel is considered by many to be the greatest mathematician of the 20th century) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
-------- A shortened form of the overall pattern of evidence is here:
Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US overview here; Let There Be Light http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2012/02/let-there-be-light.html
bornagain77
April 7, 2012
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The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating:
Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm
Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory:
Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/
This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers’ paper:
“Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case……. LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. – Robert Villarreal – Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/
Music and Verse:
Natalie Grant - Alive (Resurrection video) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX John 20: 4-8 The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; 5and stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in. And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed.
bornagain77
April 7, 2012
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jguy you object:
'What we have then is a disagreement with the Italian scientists quoted in the above article, that states the researchers ‘managed the effect’ with a high intensity UV laser. ‘Managed the effect’ means they replicated the image, and it was with a UV source.'
Yet you neglect to take note of a key thing:
Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic, Italian Study Suggests – December 2011 Excerpt: ,,, Since the shroud and “all its facets” still cannot be replicated using today’s top-notch technology, researchers suggest it is impossible that the original image could have been created in either period. http://www.thegopnet.com/shroud-of-turin-is-authentic-italian-study-suggests-87037 a similar image has been created by the scientists. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many (NOT ALL) of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Thus the Italian scientists never claimed to have reproduced the Shroud in 'all its facets'! Thus jguy, your objection is left hanging until you can provide evidence that this particular characteristic mentioned by Moran,,,
“It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique.
,,was reproduced in 'all its facets'! jguy, your other objection is not even referenced ,,,
In one of the videos an expert of some sort talks about the sheet floating parallel to explain the image above the body and the light then having to emitting I guess perpendicular to the sheets, but in another view I vaguely recall the sheet needed to be very close to the body…which is it?
,,, save to some 'vague recollection",,, exactly how is this helpful, jguy, since you provide no source for me to refute? Am I suppose to refute what you 'vaguely recall'? Sorry jguy, I shall not chase shadows of your mind! further notes:
THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE – Evidence of Authenticity http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Shroud Of Turin – Sewn From Two Pieces – 2000 Years Old – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109101 The Sudarium of Oviedo http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm
Here is a interesting video interview with Bruno Barberis, director of the International Center of Sindonology in Turin, Italy, who states that the Shroud is the ‘actual burial cloth of Jesus’;
Expert: Shroud ‘actual burial cloth of Jesus’ – interview with video http://www.wnd.com/2010/05/151025/
Moreover, in a fairly recent breakthrough, prior to this ‘laser test’ the carbon dating question has been thoroughly addressed and refuted by Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford in 2000. Their research, with textile experts, showing the carbon testing was done with a piece of the Shroud which was subject to expert medieval reweaving in the 1500’s had much historical, and photographic, evidence behind it. Their historical, and photographic, evidence was then scientifically confirmed by chemical analysis in 2005 by Raymond Rogers. Thus, the fact that a false age was shown by the 1989 carbon testing has been accepted across the board as far as the scientific evidence itself is concerned.
New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating – Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4222339 Discovery Channel – Unwrapping The Shroud of Turin New Evidence – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyiZtagxX8
bornagain77
April 7, 2012
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lex parsimoniaeJGuy
April 7, 2012
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It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique.
What we have then is a disagreement with the Italian scientists quoted in the above article, that states the researchers 'managed the effect' with a high intensity UV laser. 'Managed the effect' means they replicated the image, and it was with a UV source. This notion is further re-enforced since the article goes on to argue the technology was not available to the medieval forgers [if that is even the cause/source], not that it was insufficient. See, I won't say what the image source really is, I don't know. I appreciate your views on bio-photons etc... I have some idea's of a similar nature about other things. But if this was the body of Jesus bursting into light, or something like that, then why any image? Note the discolorations that show eyes and beard in the image. Wouldn't you rather expect a discolored area looking like a filled in silhouette than a defined image with internal features. And there seems to be contradicting ideas on how the light emitted from the body. In one of the videos an expert of some sort talks about the sheet floating parallel to explain the image above the body and the light then having to emitting I guess perpendicular to the sheets, but in another view I vaguely recall the sheet needed to be very close to the body...which is it? Also, note form a full view of the shroud that the edges are very discolored where it was folded. Why is it discolored on the folded edges? So, needless to say, I am far from convinced this is the image of Jesus. The shroud has a scattered history, and controversial one. A wiki sourced reference to John Calvin's comment is noteworthy here:
John Calvin on the shroud In 1543 John Calvin, in his Treatise on Relics, wrote of the shroud, which was then at Nice (it was moved to Turin in 1578), "How is it possible that those sacred historians, who carefully related all the miracles that took place at Christ's death, should have omitted to mention one so remarkable as the likeness of the body of our Lord remaining on its wrapping sheet?" He also noted that, according to St. John, there was one sheet covering Jesus's body, and a separate cloth covering his head. He then stated that "either St. John is a liar," or else anyone who promotes such a shroud is "convicted of falsehood and deceit".[35]
JGuy
April 7, 2012
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Also of note as to providing a viable 'mechanism' for the apparent 'burst of light' emanating from the body of Christ:
Cellular Communication through Light Excerpt: Information transfer is a life principle. On a cellular level we generally assume that molecules are carriers of information, yet there is evidence for non-molecular information transfer due to endogenous coherent light. This light is ultra-weak, is emitted by many organisms, including humans and is conventionally described as biophoton emission. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005086 Biophotons - The Light In Our Cells - Marco Bischof - March 2005 Excerpt page 2: The Coherence of Biophotons: ,,, Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light. Such light is very quiet and shows an extremely stable intensity, without the fluctuations normally observed in light. Because of their stable field strength, its waves can superimpose, and by virtue of this, interference effects become possible that do not occur in ordinary light. Because of the high degree of order, the biological laser light is able to generate and keep order and to transmit information in the organism. http://www.international-light-association.eu/PDF/Biophotons.pdf The Real Bioinformatics Revolution - Proteins and Nucleic Acids 'Singing' to One Another? Excerpt: the molecules send out specific frequencies of electromagnetic waves which not only enable them to ‘see' and ‘hear' each other, as both photon and phonon modes exist for electromagnetic waves, but also to influence each other at a distance and become ineluctably drawn to each other if vibrating out of phase (in a complementary way).,,, More than 1 000 proteins from over 30 functional groups have been analysed. Remarkably, the results showed that proteins with the same biological function share a single frequency peak while there is no significant peak in common for proteins with different functions; furthermore the characteristic peak frequency differs for different biological functions. ,,, The same results were obtained when regulatory DNA sequences were analysed. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/TheRealBioinformaticsRevolution.php Are humans really beings of light? Excerpt: "We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.",,, "There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon... Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions... We are swimming in an ocean of light." http://viewzone2.com/dna.html Coast to Coast - Vicki's Near Death Experience (Blind From Birth) part 1 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y Quote from preceding video: 'I was in a body and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head. It had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And 'it' was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.' - Vicky Noratuk "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature." St. Augustine
Verse and Music:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth." "In Christ Alone" / scenes from "The Passion of the Christ" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDPKdylIxVM
bornagain77
April 6, 2012
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as to:
but sunlight has a very significant UV component.
Yet:
"It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was "lifted cleanly" from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state." - Kevin Moran - Optics Engineer
as to:
'Finally, why does the image on the shroud seem like a portrait, rather than appear as a distorted/stretched face. i.e. an image from a cloth wrapped around a person’s head?'
Yet, In the following video, new findings link the 'event horizon' of the Resurrection (as recorded on the Shroud of Turin) and the 'event horizon' of the Dawn of Creation (Big Bang)
A Particle Physicist Looks at the Turin Shroud - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg Particle Radiation from the Body - M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit?hl=en_US THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. - Isabel Piczek - Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation
Further notes;
Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review – Robert Villarreal – Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Front and Back 3-D images - articles and videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg
This following recent video revealed a very surprising holographic image that was found on the Shroud:
Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205
If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light' while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth.
In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560
It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's:
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm
Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right:
THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!!
God's crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something which should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about.
Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread."
bornagain77
April 6, 2012
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I'm a Christian and doubt the shroud is a legitimate artifact connected to Jesus' resurrection. No need to invoke the supernatural.
Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic.
Maybe so, about access to technology, but sunlight has a very significant UV component. It is largely parallel light, and can be easily used to discolor clothing with a cast image as crude as the shroud exhibits. UV lasers are used today for micro-lithography purposes, but this image is crude in comparison. Discoloration can be done with UV masked by possible several ways w/ someone of artistic skill of course - e.g. with crude stained glass, light silk or a simple topical solution (e.g. honeysuckle). In place of intensity one need only use longer exposure times for the same effects. No need for modern "high-intensity ultra violet lasers". Why spell that out instead of high intensity "UV" lasers? Just asking. Finally, why does the image on the shroud seem like a portrait, rather than appear as a distorted/stretched face. i.e. an image from a cloth wrapped around a person's head?JGuy
April 6, 2012
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