Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Uncommon Descent Contest Question 8: Do the “new atheists” help or hurt the cause of Darwinism?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The prize?:  A free copy of Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell (Harper One, 2009).

Judged: Go here for winner.

You may wish to note this discussion on the new atheists and the problem of evil.

Admin Note: Re contest 7: Endoplasmic Messenger needs to send me a real world address at oleary@sympatico.ca, in order to collect his prize. It will NOT be added to a database for any further purpose.

My own view – and not meant to prejudice yours:

That is a fascinating subject, and one on which I have written. But let philosopher Michael Ruse have the floor now, complaining about the new atheists:

“Why I think the new atheists are a bloody disaster” In the past few years, we have seen the rise and growth of a group that the public sphere has labeled the “new atheists” – people who are aggressively pro-science, especially pro-Darwinism, and violently anti-religion of all kinds, especially Christianity but happy to include Islam and the rest. Actually the arguments are not that “new,” but no matter – the publicity has been huge. Distinctive of this group, although well known to anyone who studies religion and the way in which sects divide and proliferate, is the fact that (with the possible exception of the Catholic Church) nothing incurs their wrath than those who are pro-science but who refuse to agree that all and every kind of religious belief is wrong, pernicious, and socially and personally dangerous. Recently, it has been the newly appointed director of the NIH, Francis Collins, who has been incurring their hatred. Given the man’s scientific and managerial credentials – completing the HGP under budget and under time for a start – this is deplorable, if understandable since Collins is a devout Christian.

I am not a devout Christian, yet if anything, the things said against me are worse.

Oh? Indeed? Why, exactly, is what is said about Francis Collins “understandable?” Why are atheists given a worldwide passport and “get out of jail free” card for bad behaviour? Anyway, Jerry Coyne replied, removing all doubt about the atheist agenda.

I have never figured Ruse out. He was raised a Quaker and lost his faith in his early twenties. I know for a fact that he hangs around the ID guys. Not that there is anything the matter with that, except that he has said,

… I think intelligent-design theory and its companions are nasty, cramping, soul-destroying reversions to the more unfortunate aspects of 19th century America. Although I am not a Christian, I look upon these ideas as putrid scabs on the body of a great religion …

 But he was at the head table at a dinner given in honour of Phillip Johnson in 2004. I was there.

I suspect that Ruse never figured himself out either. He is not like Larry Krauss, a determined atheist, who dines on well-fed “Catholic” profs who never get their rotting ships in tackle, and maybe don’t even care, as long as the taxpayer or the devout believer fronts their bills anyway.

No, Ruse wants us to know that he somehow cares about the people he really, obviously, despises, while he explains, in hearty “English” terms, why these new atheists are a bloody disaster.

But are they really? If so, to whom? Not to the new totalitarians in government, of whom many of us have had a way bigger dose than we are prepared to stomach. And this new totalitarianism advances in the name of theories of government birthed explicitly in atheism.

Still, despite Ruse, I can think of three reasons the new atheists could indeed be a bloody disaster – but mainly for themselves:

1. People realize that the new atheists’ theories are not true. Consider the endless kvetching from tax-funded science orgs that we don’t believe the crap they feed us about Darwinism. That’s because we know something is wrong. So we are all wrong and they are all right? We’ve heard that enough times from tax-funded orgs before, when the evidence just didn’t add up, to raise suspicion.

2. Many Darwinists, like Richard Dawkins, invested heavily in Darwinism’s unfortunate offspring, “evolutionary psychology”, a predictable disaster, given what we know today about the plasticity of the human brain. Still, every yap, whine, or therapy scream in the popular press’s weekend “Relationships” section somehow “proves” [hush! hush! respectful silence here!] Evolution! That brings the whole discipline of evolutionary biology – if it is indeed a discipline – into disrepute. Significantly, evolutionary biologists rarely denounce this nonsense. Would medical doctors refuse to denounce a supposed treatment based on “space rays”? So why the continued silence?

3. Ruse seems to think that some form of Christianity would be compatible with Darwinism. This is false and known to be so by almost every serious Christian. No form of Darwinism is compatible with Christianity or any other type of theism, because Darwin developed his theory precisely to rule that out. His serious followers understand that. Telling people things that they know are false is hardly a good way to convince them. (Note: Of course, there are numerous confused, nice, well-meaning reverends and bible school profs who do not understand this, and just want everyone to be “nice.” I have dealt with enough of them myself.)

But is Ruse vs. Coyne just a pretend squabble, a good cop/bad cop routine? I think so myself. Just a way of distracting attention and getting nice, well-meaning reverends and bible school profs to agree with Ruse and not Coyne, and – above all – not to see the big picture. Like taking candy from a baby, actually.

Anyway, that’s my view, but I am not in the contest. I only mail the prizes . The floor is yours. Here’s the question again:

Uncommon Descent Contest Question 8: Do the “new atheists” help or hurt the cause of Darwinism?

Comments
I will articulate the point in one sentence so there will be no misunderstanding. Science pursues truth because there is nothing else to pursue. Materialist/Darwinists {Radical Empiricists, if you like] don’t understand this, so they can’t articulate why they even bother to conduct the investigation. There is nothing incomprehensible about that.
StephenB, I believe I am the best judge of what is comprehensible to me, and I think that we are talking at cross-purposes. You are venting considerable spleen against persons whom you deem reprehensible, which is your privilige, but you are not addressing an issue that I care much about (my current issue is defining science, see below), so I'll let you off the hook of this thread.
Incidentally, this thread was supposed to be about whether new atheists hurt or help Darwinism. Some of us have already weighed in on that. Why not have go at it. You may even win the prize.
OK, I will say that this particular cultural-religious conflict is irrelevant to the conduct of biological research and the position of evolution among its paradigms. The new atheists can shout all they want and if they discredit themselves in the eyes of their opponents, it bothers the scientists not a whit. They will continue to practice their craft in blissful ignorance of the storms that rage outside of their ivy-encrusted, cloistered laboratories. (What's the prize?)Adel DiBagno
August 23, 2009
August
08
Aug
23
23
2009
06:26 AM
6
06
26
AM
PDT
Jerry @ 92:
Instead they use mainly negative arguments against religion with the hoped for implication that they will be the winner by default. This is a strategy that could work if they had a good product.
There are countless posts on UD arguing (mistakenly) that all ID has to do is show that orthodox evolutionary theory fails, and ID "wins" by default. And countless more that attempt to deny that ID needs to become a "good product" on its own merit (ie., needs to generate unique testable predictions of its own, and then test them) before it can be taken seriously as a science. Sauce, goose, gander, etc.Diffaxial
August 23, 2009
August
08
Aug
23
23
2009
06:12 AM
6
06
12
AM
PDT
Folks, it appears that Oramus cannot figure out which side he's on... From #36:
Anyone that puts ‘credence’ in ‘darwinian evolutionary mechanisms’ will tell you that they are not explaining how life came into existence. That’s abiogenesis, a totally different animal! There is aaaaabsolutely no linkage whatsoever. It’s hard to keep it straight I know. But it IS very important to remember. Read my lips: NDE and Abio did NOT, I repeat, did not have relations
Then, in #47:
Contrary to ND assertions, you cannot break down the development of life into separate, unconnected events....the origin of the human species cannot be pinpointed to a specific location and time...it can only be understood to have originated at the moment of abiogenesis.
It's admittedly hard to argue against someone who himself argues both sides (and ends up contradiciting himself). I myself was arguing neither in favor of nor against neo-Darwinian evolution. I was merely pointing out that one cannot logically be both a "serious" Christian AND a "serious" proponent of NDE. But I guess some people would rather be antagonistic at any cost rather than discuss the issue(s) at hand.C Bass
August 23, 2009
August
08
Aug
23
23
2009
05:07 AM
5
05
07
AM
PDT
I believe the new atheists hurt the cause of Darwinism. Let us define Darwinism in two ways and in either case the new atheists hurt Darwinism. Darwinism has two common usages; first, a theory that says essentially evolution happened by descent with modification, through gradualistic processes and natural selection. The second is a philosophical/metaphysical one specifying as Darwin did that there is no need for non naturalistic input in any of evolution. This is not required by the theory but Darwin insisted on it and it is demanded just as strongly by his current day adherents. The key thing is, that the new atheist arguments never strengthen the grounds for accepting either one of these two concepts. Instead they use mainly negative arguments against religion with the hoped for implication that they will be the winner by default. This is a strategy that could work if they had a good product. But when they use such a negative approach they open themselves up for an examination of their own underlying rationale and the weakness of their own foundation will have the effect that their negative arguments will be lost. Their philosophical argument requires that both of these definitions be correct in terms of how the world works. And the more noise they make, the more this key part of the foundations for their beliefs will be exposed as baseless. Neither meaning of Darwinism has merit. There is no logical or scientific reason that all evolution must have happened by naturalistic means let alone gradualistic means. In fact it is patently illogical. Just one intelligent act in the history of the universe would obviate this assumption and make their position baseless and there is good reason to believe intelligent actions have occurred. Secondly, the theory itself has no support in the real world when the inquiry is focused on the complexity of life and its transitions through the last 3.5 billion years. For this latter reason, Darwinian macro evolution (origin of complex functional novelties), a key part of their philosophical foundation, should not even be considered a science and should be removed from the textbooks and curriculum . The new atheists are marketing their product very aggressively. Marketing of anything involves four processes. First, there is the product and both scientifically and philosophically, Darwinism is a bad product. So the new atheists have a bad product and bad product don't succeed. Second, there is the price and the price required while not financial is steep. It is that one must abandon a belief system that supported the world for several thousand years for one that has no track record of producing good and many instances of producing extremely harmful results for its adherents. Because of the steep product price more and more people will examine the actual product and this means an intense scrutiny of this obviously bad product. Third, there is the communication of the product benefits. As the communication level rapidly increases there will be further emphasis on its negatives as well as its so called benefits. It will be harder to hide the negative side of their product. The aggressive communication has provoked competitive communication and the competition has the stronger message for the belief for its product. The competition's message is based on science while it become clearer and clearer that the basis for the new atheism is based solely on philosophy, and one that has failed when implemented on a wide scale. The fourth aspect of marketing is the distribution of the product. As the new atheists extend the distribution of their ideas they also open up the distribution channels for their competition as well and the competition have the stronger product. They are extending their product into areas that heavily support the competition and as such the competition will push back with both a better product and more effective advertising because they have a product that works. There is an old maxim in marketing. Nothing kills a bad product faster than extensive advertising and good distribution. The faster people realize how bad a product is, the quicker it is rejected. The new atheist movement has accelerated the communication and distribution of their product but in the process open themselves up for intense scrutiny. Witness what has happened on this site. The baseless and irrelevant arguments of the anti ID people are making the acceptance of ID much easier. The more aggressive they are with their bad arguments the easier it gets to make the ID case.jerry
August 22, 2009
August
08
Aug
22
22
2009
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT
I will articulate the point in one sentence so there will be no misunderstanding. Science pursues truth because there is nothing else to pursue. Materialist/Darwinists {Radical Empiricists, if you like] don't understand this, so they can't articulate why they even bother to conduct the investigation. There is nothing incomprehensible about that. Incidentally, this thread was supposed to be about whether new atheists hurt or help Darwinism. Some of us have already weighed in on that. Why not have go at it. You may even win the prize.StephenB
August 22, 2009
August
08
Aug
22
22
2009
11:00 AM
11
11
00
AM
PDT
StephenB, I don't mind addressing your original points above. Indeed, I applaud your invitation to turn down the temperature and explore these issues calmly. At the time I first read those points, I passed them by, because I didn't understand them. I should have asked for clarification. First, I am unclear about truth as a "destination." I can grasp this as an abstract concept, but I can't put flesh on it. Respecting the theory of evolution, it is to me a working paradigm (in the Kuhnian sense) that is now well-integrated among the other working paradigms in biology, for example, population genetics, ecology, molecular biology, paleontology, epidemiology. As long as the evolutionary paradigm is useful to biologists, they will continue to employ it to direct investigations and to interpret data. This is what I meant by "moving on." When the existing paradigm is replaced by a more useful and fruitful paradigm, the new paradigm will attract practitioners and they will then "move on" to exploit it. So, truth as a "destination" is unimaginable to me. I view truth-seeking as an endlessly evolving process. That process is the joy of science: it keeps yielding delightful surprises. I hope that explains why your statement, "Darwinists ...chose to stop moving by declaring that the matter has been settled once and for all," didn't resonate with me. If science is a process, how can there be any permanently settled matters? Now, on further reflection, I should have realized that "the matter" is, for you, the issue of special creation. If so, then I can see no basis for a scientist to decide that the issue of special creation has been permanently settled. However, he can determine that special creation is currently not a fruitful hypothesis. That is the state of affairs. The challenge for the ID community is to demonstrate the contrary.Adel DiBagno
August 22, 2009
August
08
Aug
22
22
2009
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
---Adel: "Perhaps you have forgotten your original challenge @69:" [No scientist have ever shown that naturalistic forces can produce macro evolution.] No, actually, my original challenge was of quite a different texture, so I think I will return to it. Challenging fbeckwith, you wrote, ---"Surely you know better, being something of a philosopher. ---“Materialists,” at least those of the empiricist (scientific) stripe, are not looking for “Truth.” ---"They are testing hypotheses. If their tests support their hypotheses, they move on. ---"If their test do not support their hypotheses, they move on. ---"Moving on is key, whereas the anti-empiricist camp wants closure (are you not certain of you viewpoint?), and is content to stop at whatever resting point " I responded: They are, or should be, trying to get closer and closer to the truth, which is why they move on. If there was no truth to pursue, there would be no reason to “move on.” Without a destination [truth], there is no reason to undertake the journey [science and reason]. Under those circumstances, one stopping place is a good as any other. It is the Darwinists who chose to stop moving by declaring that the matter has been settled once and for all. You addressed none of this, except to falsely claim that I was arguing by definition, which, of course, I was not, as I made clear. So, if you don't mind, I think I will return to the my original points, none of which were ever addressed.StephenB
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
“Scientist” works for me. However, a scientist can be either a professional researcher, following where the evidence leads no matter what the result, or a non-professional ideologue, promoting an agenda and using evidence to get the results he wants.
That's a relief. We're all off the hook except for an ideological few (who may or may not be nameless). Back to the labs with StephenB's blessing! (Except I'm not clear how a nonprofessional ideologue qualifies as a scientist.)Adel DiBagno
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
02:37 PM
2
02
37
PM
PDT
In any case, the issue is not who I had in mind; the issue is who Dawkins had in mind and chose to rule out apriori, namely a personal God that may or may not be Abrahamic.
Why is it important to you that Dawkins chose to rule out a personal God? The original question you posed was:
Do you know of any Darwinists who admit that life could have been designed?
Do you deny that extraterrestrials qualify as possible designers? If you don't, then Dawkins has admitted that "life could have been designed," and your question has been answered, your suppositions about his motives and inner beliefs notwithstanding.
—-“Are you claiming that a demonic force has purposefully introduced diversity into the human genome? Including all those bad mutations that I mentioned: the ones that cause congenital diseases, mental illnesses and cancer?” You are confusing philosophy/theology [arguments about good design bad design] with science [inferred design detected by observation without respect to its quality].
Forget good/bad design. The money question was: Which is it: unplanned, random mutation or demonic intervention? Perhaps you have forgotten your original challenge @69:
No one on this site has ever provided a shred of evidence that naturalistic, unplanned forces can create biodiversity. Would you like to break precedence and assume the burden of that task?
I provided an example: human genetic/phenotypic diversity, based on unplanned mutation. You later claimed, in response to one of my questions:
Science supports the idea that random variation and natural selection causes “micro” changes [change within a species] over time. Science does not support the idea that these naturalistic forces can generate new body plans.
May I conclude from the above that you accept a naturalistic explanation for human genetic/phenotypic diversity? (That would be progress.) If so, I now ask: What empirical or other test did you use to distinguish scientific support for change within a species from scientific support for generation of new species or "body plans"?Adel DiBagno
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
02:30 PM
2
02
30
PM
PDT
----"Thank you for your helpful definition of the term empiricist. So, I reckon that there exist at least some persons who merely believe in the use of scientific empirical methods when doing science. Not Materialists, not Empiricists; what are they? Methodological materialists and methodological empiricists? Or might one simply say “scientists”? "Scientist" works for me. However, a scientist can be either a professional researcher, following where the evidence leads no matter what the result, or a non-professional ideologue, promoting an agenda and using evidence to get the results he wants.StephenB
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
11:20 AM
11
11
20
AM
PDT
----Adel Dibagno: “Regarding Dawkins, how does appeal to the extraterrestrial “avoid the prospect of design”? That would only be the case if you have a particular designer in mind who is not extraterrestrial. (Is that designer the Abrahamic God?)” When Dawkins appeals to the extraterrestrial, he is really trying to avoid the “designer” more so than the prospect of design per se. His position is consistent unless he is grilled by a logical interviewer who can easily expose his errors. To be sure, he posits that design is an illusion. You will recall that I even provided you with Dawkins’ definition of biology in that context. That should have been the end of the matter. When pressed by Ben Stein, however, and in an attempt to avoid the prospect of a personal God, Dawkins admitted believing that life on earth may have been “seeded” by extraterrestrials, whatever he means by seeded. Darwinists are notorious for not defining their terms. [Or, perhaps he was fearful that you would accuse him of “arguing by definition.”] In effect, Dawkins was trying to deny God as creator and was searching for any other explanation for the origin of life. If you are having problems with Dawkins’ logic take it up with him. It was you introduced the idea of the “extraterrestrial,” not me. The fact remains that Dawkins definitive position is the position of all Darwinists----design is an illusion. That’s part of the definition that you keep confusing with an argument. In any case, the issue is not who I had in mind; the issue is who Dawkins had in mind and chose to rule out apriori, namely a personal God that may or may not be Abrahamic. ----“Regarding Crick, watch those goal posts zooming by as StephenB creates another argument by definition. Google “no true scotsman.” I did not “argue” by definition; I simply defined my terms and asserted that Crick does not fully fit the description. Hint: To argue by definition is to attempt to provide a reasoned argument that something must be the case. On the other hand, to define one’s terms is to simply let the other party know what he means by them. -----“Please identify what kind of evolution (if any) is supported by science.” Science supports the idea that random variation and natural selection causes “micro” changes [change within a species] over time. Science does not support the idea that these naturalistic forces can generate new body plans. ----“Are you claiming that a demonic force has purposefully introduced diversity into the human genome? Including all those bad mutations that I mentioned: the ones that cause congenital diseases, mental illnesses and cancer?” You are confusing philosophy/theology [arguments about good design bad design] with science [inferred design detected by observation without respect to its quality]. ----“I assume you have a position on the issue, since you posed the question. Kindly set an example of good argumentation by stating your position and supporting it. Which is it: unplanned, random mutation or demonic intervention? Neither. Your world is too small and your options are too limited. [A] Science can easily detect the presence of intelligence by observing the presence of patterns in nature. [B] Philosophy holds that designs can be optimal without being perfect, meaning that what appears to be a bad design is, in reality, a means of coordinating multiple functions, some of which require a less-than-perfect design in one area to accommodate design in another area. [C] Theology [of the Christian variety] holds that the design was once perfect but, after mankind sinned by offending the creator, the design was compromised and the order in the universe was disturbed. Hence, the “bad” mutations.StephenB
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
StephenB,
An empiricist is not one who merely believes in the use of scientific empirical methods, but rather one who insists, philosophically, that only sense experience can play a role in obtaining knowledge.
Thank you for your helpful definition of the term empiricist. So, I reckon that there exist at least some persons who merely believe in the use of scientific empirical methods when doing science. Not Materialists, not Empiricists; what are they? Methodological materialists and methodological empiricists? Or might one simply say "scientists"?Adel DiBagno
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
08:42 AM
8
08
42
AM
PDT
I see from 72 that BillB is probably not serious about a real exchange of ideas and analyses.
WOW. Now try reading my post and engaging in some honest and open minded debate rather than crude and empty rhetorical dismissals.BillB
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
Onlookers: I have had net access headaches overnight. I see from 72 that BillB is probably not serious about a real exchange of ideas and analyses. That is sad, but it has been unfortunately typical of darwinist critics who come to UD over the past several years. I will remark on a few pints for the record: 1 --> I used the 'search engine" imagery in the context of the trajectory of our cosmos through its phase space, associated with some 10^80 atoms. Across its thermodynamically credible lifespan -- as already pointed out -- this can only access 10^150 states, so it cannot credibly access sufficient of the number of states for an entity storing just 1,000 bits, to make chance and necessity alone credible explanations for specific functionality that uses that little information. Life systems of consequence start at 600 k bits. 2 --> And while playing word games over imagery will not change that fact, it might just distract attention from it. 3 --> Similarly, he insists on speaking of probability intuitions as though that responds properly to the fact that even for a config space of 1,000 bits only, the cosmos' dynamic path through its space of configs will at best access 1 in 10^150 states. So, it will not be able to search the space of configs for even a modest protein, much less observed life systems. 4 --> Similarly, BillB refuses to address the fact of censorship in science, by imposition of the materialist magisterium. 5 --> His proposed simulation is of course in a designed environment, and reeks of design. he seems to join those who refuse to acknowledge the fact that design often leaves empirically characteristic traces, from which we may credibly infer per such evidence to its presence as an activity. Not to mention, that such is abundantly routine in many fields of scientifically based praxis. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
Darwinian evolution is an ideology, unsupported by science.
Is this an ideological conflict? If it is, are there any ideologues on the anti-evolution side?Adel DiBagno
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
08:09 AM
8
08
09
AM
PDT
StephenB,
—-“Assuming anyone in science fits your mold, how about Crick and Dawkins? Didn’t both of them publicly admit the possibility of extraterrestrial design of life?” For Dawkins, the appeal to the extraterrestrial element is to avoid the prospect of design. He describes biology as the study of those things that “appear” to be designed but aren’t. Crick, on the other hand, was not a full fledged Darwinist.
Regarding Dawkins, how does appeal to the extraterrestrial "avoid the prospect of design"? That would only be the case if you have a particular designer in mind who is not extraterrestrial. (Is that designer the Abrahamic God?) Regarding Crick, watch those goal posts zooming by as StephenB creates another argument by definition. Google "no true scotsman."
I wrote: Darwinian evolution is an ideology, unsupported by science.
As someone said, "That is not an argument. It is an assertion." Please identify what kind of evolution (if any) is supported by science.
—Adel: “Although I think you have dismissed and maybe even scoffed at many presentations of evidence on behalf of unplanned forces creating biodiversity, let me give you an example of my own: —”Human beings. Whether you hold that the human population is entirely descended from Adam and Eve or not, the current biodiversity of the human genome appears to have resulted from unguided random mutation.” That is not an argument. It is an assertion.
Are you claiming that a demonic force has purposefully introduced diversity into the human genome? Including all those bad mutations that I mentioned: the ones that cause congenital diseases, mental illnesses and cancer? I assume you have a position on the issue, since you posed the question. Kindly set an example of good argumentation by stating your position and supporting it. Which is it: unplanned, random mutation or demonic intervention?Adel DiBagno
August 21, 2009
August
08
Aug
21
21
2009
08:05 AM
8
08
05
AM
PDT
kairosfocus (#51)
Mr Darwin’s only diagram in Origin was the tree of life.
Hardly relevant to my original point, which, quite simply, is that there is dichotomy between the xtian explanation and the darwinian explanation for our presence (the word "existence" got oramus in a tizzy, not sure what set you off. These rabbit trail tangents are as annoying as they are tedious.) Whether OOL is formally a part of NDE is not the issue I was addressing. If oramus and kf wanna duke it out, fine by me, but I am totally apathetic, as y'all aparently are to my original point, so I guess we're even.C Bass
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
07:18 PM
7
07
18
PM
PDT
I wrote: Darwinian evolution is an ideology, unsupported by science. ----Adel responds, "Bingo." Bingo, indeed.StephenB
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
11:48 AM
11
11
48
AM
PDT
---Adel: "Although I think you have dismissed and maybe even scoffed at many presentations of evidence on behalf of unplanned forces creating biodiversity, let me give you an example of my own: ---"Human beings. Whether you hold that the human population is entirely descended from Adam and Eve or not, the current biodiversity of the human genome appears to have resulted from unguided random mutation." That is not an argument. It is an assertion.StephenB
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
11:44 AM
11
11
44
AM
PDT
---Adel Dibagno: “Arguing by definition, again, StephenB? Of course I fit your definition, as do most biologists, inasmuch as the alternative, a guided, directed historical process, has not yet proven amenable to empirical investigation. But, let me emphasize, we are open to the possibility.” Yes, you do fit my definition, but you tried to deny it. After I characterized you as a Darwinst, you said, “hardly.” Now you say, “you betcha.” In any case, I wasn’t arguing by definition I was describing by definition. In your attempt to play gotcha, you made yet another logical error. ----“But, let me emphasize, we are open to the possibility.” [of design] No, Darwinists are not open to the possibility. Those who are open to other possibilities argue in good faith, and Darwinists typically do not argue in good faith. Indeed, I once explained to a Darwinist on this site the principle that that a whole is always greater than any one of its parts. That is why an automobile cannot be a part of a crankshaft. His response was, “sure it can.” Get the idea? ----“The word I used was “scientist.” Are you now defining all scientists as “Darwinists”? Here is yet another logical error. I used the word “Darwinist,” you changed my word to “scientist,” and then ask me if I am defining scientists as Darwinists. I asked if you knew of any Darwinist who publically and unmistakably admits that he/she could be wrong about Darwinism. ----“Assuming anyone in science fits your mold, how about Crick and Dawkins? Didn’t both of them publicly admit the possibility of extraterrestrial design of life?” For Dawkins, the appeal to the extraterrestrial element is to avoid the prospect of design. He describes biology as the study of those things that “appear” to be designed but aren’t. Crick, on the other hand, was not a full fledged Darwinist. ----“I don’t follow you. My original comment was, I believe: “Materialists,” at least those of the empiricist (scientific) stripe, are not looking for “Truth.” It would be interesting to ask them what exactly it is that they are looking for. That is the irony that I keep pointing to. Darwinists deny that truth exists and then promptly start investigating nature as if it did. That is one of their incredible contradictions. Indeed, Darwinists not only reject the destination, [truth], they also reject the vehicle [reason] by denying the self-evident truths that undergird the logical process. They do it daily on this site. The obvious question, then, is this: Since they reject the possibility of a destination and renounce the vehicle by which we arrive at it, why do they presume to undertake the journey? ----“It seems to me that I was extracting empiricist scientists from materialists in general as the group that does not seek Truth with a capital T. (That was the distinction I was trying to make to fbeckwith) As I understand current usage, the set = materialists includes philosophical materialists, a subset that I was deliberately excluding. Am I correct in concluding from your comments that you, like fbeckwith, want to blur the distinction by characterizing empiricist scientists as ideologues? (For all I know, philosophical materialists do believe in Truth with a capital T, are therefore not empiricists, and are ideological.)” Materialism [metaphysics] leaves no room for truth, nor does radical empiricism [epistemology]. On the other hand, a scientist who uses “empirical methods” need not deny truth at all. Radical empiricism, a philosophy, holds that only the sense faculty can bring knowledge and that the intelligence faculty plays no role. That is an error. In fact, we gain knowledge both through the senses and through the intellect [realism]. Yet, when Darwinists use the word “empiricism,” [philosophical concept], they mistakenly think it means empirical methods[scientific concept], which do indeed bring knowledge because they do not rule out the role of the intellect in obtaining it. Materialism is metaphysical, but empiricism is epistemological. That means that a materialist will most likely be a radical empiricist, yet a scientist who uses empirical methods, that is, a scientist who observes data and draws conclusions, need not be either a materialist or a radical empiricist, both of which rule out design prior to the investigation. Summary: An empiricist is not one who merely believes in the use of scientific empirical methods, but rather one who insists, philosophically, that only sense experience can play a role in obtaining knowledge.StephenB
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
10:28 AM
10
10
28
AM
PDT
"Human beings. Whether you hold that the human population is entirely descended from Adam and Eve or not, the current biodiversity of the human genome appears to have resulted from unguided random mutation." I believe the average human differs from another human in about 1.4 million base pairs. If we assume that there are two possibilities at each base point that means there are about 2^1.400,000 varieties of humans possible. Supposedly humans differ by 10,000,000 base pairs from Chimps. Sounds like a lot of base point changes in 5 million years with a relatively low number of offspring each generation and error correction and natural selection winnowing out all the bad mutations. Now most of the differences in the current human genomes can probably be explained by micro evolution which few dispute but the differences between other mammals and other classes are not so easy to explain. In fact some of the changes defy any explanation. Lots of speculation. We will see this addressed a lot in the next 10 years as it only takes a couple weeks to map a genome these days and the expense has come way down.jerry
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
08:35 AM
8
08
35
AM
PDT
No one on this site has ever provided a shred of evidence that naturalistic, unplanned forces can create biodiversity. Would you like to break precedence and assume the burden of that task?
Although I think you have dismissed and maybe even scoffed at many presentations of evidence on behalf of unplanned forces creating biodiversity, let me give you an example of my own: Human beings. Whether you hold that the human population is entirely descended from Adam and Eve or not, the current biodiversity of the human genome appears to have resulted from unguided random mutation. But I am open to the possibility that a non-natural force has generated every mutation, including those that cause congenital diseases, mental illness and cancers.
While you are at it, support your claim that some Darwinists have admitted that they can be wrong. If you could find such an animal, it would be a marvel since it would violate the Darwinist “no concession policy.”
I don't remember making that claim - could you provide the quote? But since it seems that whoever disagrees with you is a Darwinist ideologue, I have admitted freely above that I can be wrong. And if I remember correctly, I think that at least one other commenter here (Diffaxial?) has owned up to the possibility of error.Adel DiBagno
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT
My assumption is confirmed by your insubstantial response. If you were not a Darwinist, you would protest or describe your world view as a counter to my charge. Just to get you up to speed, a Darwinist is someone who posits an unguided, undirected, evolutionary process. It that isn’t you, speak now or forever hold your peace.
Arguing by definition, again, StephenB? Of course I fit your definition, as do most biologists, inasmuch as the alternative, a guided, directed historical process, has not yet proven amenable to empirical investigation. But, let me emphasize, we are open to the possibility.
The question is not, do you know any Darwinist who was asked to fine tune his Darwinism by another Darwinist.
The word I used was "scientist." Are you now defining all scientists as "Darwinists"?
The question is, do you know of any Darwinist who publically and unmistakably admits that he/she could be wrong about Darwinism, period. Do you know of any Darwinists who admit that life could have been designed?
Assuming anyone in science fits your mold, how about Crick and Dawkins? Didn't both of them publicly admit the possibility of extraterrestrial design of life?
Well, how conveniently you change your definitions after being called on your error. Originally, you alluded to materialist/empiricists, who, by definition, rule out design in principle. Now you use the word empiricist in isolation and drop the word materialist. When dealing with Darwinists, I pay attention to little things like that.
I don't follow you. My original comment was, I believe:
“Materialists,” at least those of the empiricist (scientific) stripe, are not looking for “Truth.”
It seems to me that I was extracting empiricist scientists from materialists in general as the group that does not seek Truth with a capital T. (That was the distinction I was trying to make to fbeckwith) As I understand current usage, the set = materialists includes philosophical materialists, a subset that I was deliberately excluding. Am I correct in concluding from your comments that you, like fbeckwith, want to blur the distinction by characterizing empiricist scientists as ideologues? (For all I know, philosophical materialists do believe in Truth with a capital T, are therefore not empiricists, and are ideological.)
Darwinian evolution is an ideology, unsupported by science.
Bingo!Adel DiBagno
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
06:47 AM
6
06
47
AM
PDT
the observable universe acting as a search engine would sample less than 1 in 10^150 of such a number across its working life.
Do you honestly believe that the universe acts as a search engine? Your examples all rely on blanket assumptions about the nature of configuration spaces and the way that the laws of physics operate. A large basis for scientific OOL research is the hypothesis that natural processes produce environments (certain types of planet, comets etc.) that, through natural processes again, generate some of the complex chemistry that underlies life. How do your probability 'intuitions' change when some naturally occurring environments may have been bubbling around these shores of functionality for a few billion years? I suspect they don't but we already know that your position on this is fixed regardless. I'm don't have an a-priori commitment to natural explanations, like most scientists I do science in order to understand the mechanisms that underlie the workings of the world. I have no objection to you arguing that an entity that we are not allowed to hypothesise about intervenes in the world in ways that can not be reliably distinguished from natural forces or the actions of human beings, I just regard the study of such an entity and its actions to be beyond the scope of science. How can you tell if the laws of physics and the complex chemical processes that sit atop them, and which might be responsible for generating life, are not the direct actions of a deity operating throughout the universe, constantly, consistently, and predictably? Does the apple fall because of a physical force that we call gravity, because of the actions of a god, or are they one and the same? Moving on... Onlookers should note that KF's response to my simple question was to produce clouds of obfuscation. I won't ask the same question again as it will simply lead to more of the same mildly insulting retorts. Instead, consider a simulated environment which, in simple terms, contains a number of agents, each can produce morphologically varied copies of themselves, each can 'die out' if they fail to gather enough resources from their virtual environment, and their ability to gather resources and to generate offspring is a product of their behaviour and morphology in their environment. We have intelligently designed a scenario where these agents can evolve and this would be regarded from a scientific point of view as an example of evolution - not biological evolution but a simple instance of the same basic process. Now lets do the same thing but with physical matter rather than computer code. We create a planet suitable for life and seed it with single celled organisms. Will evolution occur? And if you are still having problems with the topic, let me put it in different terms: If we discover that all life descended from a common pool of single celled ancestors, which were placed on earth billions of years ago by an intelligent agent, does this mean that, between then and now, nothing has evolved?BillB
August 20, 2009
August
08
Aug
20
20
2009
02:40 AM
2
02
40
AM
PDT
PS: Going the second mile. If we were to take a sample of the atoms in our observed cosmos, which has 10^80 or so by the usual accounts, a sample of scope 1 in 10^150 would be (by many orders of magnitude below 1 in 10^80) ZERO.kairosfocus
August 19, 2009
August
08
Aug
19
19
2009
05:22 PM
5
05
22
PM
PDT
BillB: Perhaps, it will help to highlight the difference between making a probability calculation per a probability model, and a simple, even intuitive demonstration of the patent inadequate degree of a search. When we have just 1,000 bits of information storage capacity, we specify 10^301 or so possible states. Per previous calculations, the observable universe acting as a search engine would sample less than 1 in 10^150 of such a number across its working life. This is so minuscule a fraction of the number of cells in a config space, that no search on that scope can be reasonably expected to detect islands of function in the space -- the search is far too minute in scope. At least, if the search is not intelligently directed; i.e traces to forces of chance and/or blind mechanical necessity [without needing to specify such in any details]. Indeed, to a first practical approximation, the searched fraction of the space is ZERO. That is, chance or blind mechanical necessity are not feasible mechanisms for carrying out such a search. And, I have already repeatedly given a more than adequate answer to your "repeat endlessly as though not answered" -- seems this is the latest trick in the bag of Darwinist advocate rhetorical tricks, Clive -- question on purpose and evolutionary mechanisms. Finally, are you pretending that the question has not been answered on its relevant context, as far as I can see that context -- that Lewontinian materialism which demonstrably dominates institutionalised evolutionary thought? [So, if my answer is in your opinion inadequate, by now you need to show why; and why it is inadequate as relative to the line of thinking that dominates say the US National Academy of Sciences and the National Science Teachers' Association. Otherwise, your behaviour in itself says a lot; about evident willful obtuseness and possibly the fallacy of the closed mind. Worse, in defense of thought-police censorship that has already led to the holding of children hostage to the impositions of today's magisterium.] It is plain that you know already what Darwinian mechanisms and the various supplements are. In the relevant context, they are evolutionary materialistic, which is necessarily a-telic. Thus, unintelligent, tracing to chance and/or blind mechanical necessity. Such mechanisms are simply wholly inadequate to scan the relevant config spaces. But, intelligent designers routinely produce such systems. So, on inference to best, empirically based explanation . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 19, 2009
August
08
Aug
19
19
2009
05:15 PM
5
05
15
PM
PDT
---Adel Dibagno: "I say that “they,” (meaning empiricists) are consistent in considering ALL empirical propositions about the universe to be hypotheses." Well, how conveniently you change your definitions after being called on your error. Originally, you alluded to materialist/empiricists, who, by definition, rule out design in principle. Now you use the word empiricist in isolation and drop the word materialist. When dealing with Darwinists, I pay attention to little things like that. Atheist materialists are, indeed, inconsistent. Virtually every Darwinist that visits this site insists that there is no such thing as absolute truth. All the luminaries say the same thing. On the other hand, Darwinists are so sure that they have the truth that the persecute non-Darwinists regularly, as documented in the movie, "Expelled." That's what I call irony. No unsupported claims from this end. ---"Darwinian evolution has been, is now, and will always be…[drumroll]… an hypothesis!" You need louder and more reliable drums. Darwinian evolution is an ideology, unsupported by science. No one on this site has ever provided a shred of evidence that naturalistic, unplanned forces can create biodiversity. Would you like to break precedence and assume the burden of that task? While you are at it, support your claim that some Darwinists have admitted that they can be wrong. If you could find such an animal, it would be a marvel since it would violate the Darwinist "no concession policy."StephenB
August 19, 2009
August
08
Aug
19
19
2009
04:27 PM
4
04
27
PM
PDT
----Adel Dibagno: “Me, a Darwinist? Hardly. There goes StephenB, onlookers, making unsupported assertions again.” My assumption is confirmed by your insubstantial response. If you were not a Darwinist, you would protest or describe your world view as a counter to my charge. Just to get you up to speed, a Darwinist is someone who posits an unguided, undirected, evolutionary process. It that isn’t you, speak now or forever hold your peace. ----Adel: “I say, any scientist who submits her work to peer review is painfully aware of the possibility of error. Having committed her manuscript to the mails, she can be confident of having her errors pointed out by her peers (and superiors).” The question is not, do you know any Darwinist who was asked to fine tune his Darwinism by another Darwinist. The question is, do you know of any Darwinist who publically and unmistakably admits that he/she could be wrong about Darwinism, period. Do you know of any Darwinists who admit that life could have been designed?StephenB
August 19, 2009
August
08
Aug
19
19
2009
04:03 PM
4
04
03
PM
PDT
Frost122585: Unguided evolution, as you put it, can occur even if the origonal common ancestor was designed. The origin makes no difference to whether the proceeding processes can occur.BillB
August 19, 2009
August
08
Aug
19
19
2009
03:25 PM
3
03
25
PM
PDT
...mechanisms based on chance and/or blind mechanical necessity (the alternatives to intelligence) will be swamped by the combinatorial explosion
Followed by:
I need make no probability calculations to show that our observed universe is incapable of accessing sufficient of the configs of just 1,0000 bits, to make a difference: a blind search of 1 in 10^150 or less of a space is simply not a credible search.
Your argument is based on an idea that it is too improbable to happen yet you claim to not require the use of probability calculations to make this claim. I think that sums up your position nicely. Now, will you answer the question, rephrased for clarity: For evolution to occur, as defined by science, is it necessary that the first living organisms had a non-teleological origin? Please try and avoid any more ad hominem straw men or teleological a-priori assumptions in your reply and instead try and address the issue on its merits.BillB
August 19, 2009
August
08
Aug
19
19
2009
03:22 PM
3
03
22
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply