That inconvenient US State Dept memo on mass correspondence voting — in Ukraine

_{kairosfocus

October 25, 2022

Defending our Civilization, rhetoric}

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Yes, they had to know the fire they were playing with — notice, testimony to congress:

Now, you try to tell me that this time and place it’s different. All you will do is raise the question whether you are an empty headed talking point parrot or something worse. Much worse. END

PS, here is my basic political analysis, for those willing to learn from hard bought history:

F/N Oct 26: In for a penny, in for a pound. Here — for reference — is my 2020 analysis of dirty, McFaul style colour revolutions vs the SOCOM insurgency escalator:

Where, here is the Russian Chief of General Staff’s view on dirty colour revolution games as 4th gen war operations:

Also, he maps the locations he has in mind in the first instance:

Notice, Ukraine 2004 as well as 14.

Comments

F/N: Notice, no one has a sound innocent explanation for alterations to US election practices given the context of Ukraine 2004. That is a sobering warning, one that implicates the movements, institutions and influences involved. KFkairosfocus_{October 28, 2022
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NB: AmHD, "as·pect (?s?p?kt) n.1.a. A way in which something can be viewed by the mind: looked at all aspects of the situation. b. A characteristic or feature of something: a novel with many unusual aspects."kairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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PPS, once we recognise just how rare truly competent breakthrough political, military/naval and civil leaders of high character and great prudence are, then it naturally leads to a certain prudent conservativism. The sort brought out by the product of those rare moments of genuine advance:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God [--> natural law context is explicit] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind [--> they were consciously universal in their appeal] requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15; note, law as "the highest reason," per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [--> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [--> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Which, BTW is my personal political credo.kairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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By the way, on a more positive note, I appreciate Pyrrhomaniac1 very refreshing commentary from what I’m used to seeingAaronS1978_{October 27, 2022
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AF You are strong with the lib side of the force.AaronS1978_{October 27, 2022
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PM1: It is clear that no one can counter the primary observation in the OP that we see very dangerous election patterns. That such patterns are being pushed, then backed by move along, nothing to see here and now reichstag fire incident tactics further flashes warning signs. Turning to Plato [and to Luke in Ac 27 who cites a microcosm real world case of money corruption of decision making], we can always, always, always assess various aspects of his case. It is not all or nothing, I add overnight, we go further, an inductive, key case study texts approach allows us to interact with and balance our overall themes or systematic view, an issue that has revolutionised Bible Study and Theology including hermeneutics, study of interpretation. For instance if and when we detect a sense of despair that even among students of phil most will fail the true test, that should/will constrain and temper much onward . . . and it does with this text. That is obvious to the point that it is sad to have to state it for record, as is the Peloponnesian war context and at other times and places I have discussed Alcibiades and co as part of that. We have mutiny in the ship of state with incompetent, factional looter state emerging, heading for shipwreck. For Athens, the Sicilian expedition and the onward path to final defeat speak for themselves. The problem of the manipulated body politic speaks for itself. The general incompetence of pols, profs, generals and civil servants also speaks. Especially in an increasingly lawless polarised community. Defeat loomed and then ruled the roost. These dynamics, historically, have played out over and over again. As to philosopher kings, the passage is actually on why they are exceedingly rare and in the parable there is a subtle but once noticed undeniable scent of despair. Most of the students of philosophy will fail too. So, the underlying message is, in part, government in a corrupt culture will fail, the generals will fail and the money interests who do the bribing will be caught up in the sinking ship too. There are far too many, too close historical examples to list. Of philosopher king candidates I can only think of Marcus Aurelius as a possible serious case in our civilisation. Alfred the Great was not an original thinker. In India, I think Ashok may be an even better candidate. Coming back, pure democracy was so discredited by the failure of Athens that it was what2300 years before we saw the Glorious Revolution and its step child the American Revolution, and these hedged about democratic elements. Constitutional monarchies and Republics with a measure of democratic character work more or less once buttressed from the culture. But once the BATNA of lawlfulness is eroded, things slide into the normal condition of government. Lawless oligarchy. Coming further back, it is a responsible and healthy state for the community to be aware of history and the dangers highlighted by Plato and for that matter, Luke. Politicians need to be held to tests of character, capability, soundness, prudence, lawfulness and more. Which, today, they will on the whole fail. Returning to focus, it is very clear that after warning, the US has destabilised the credibility of its electoral system through putting in place substantially equivalent mechanisms to Ukraine c 2004. If sober reform does not happen very soon, we will only be left to crisis, with sobering geostrategic consequences. KF PS, as for civil servants and the like, I have two phrases, regulatory capture and ideological blinkers.kairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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Appreciate that analysis, PM. Makes me feel better about civil servantsAlan Fox_{October 27, 2022
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@37
Beats me how judicial and administrative posts are political appointments in the US.
Briefly put, it's because the US was founded early on in the history of the modern bureaucratic state. In UK and Europe, centralized monarchy deprived regional lords of their power. This eventually got transformed into a powerful centralized administrative apparatus, which became progressively democratized in the 20th century, leading to the modern welfare state. In the US, the wealthy landowners and merchants took advantage of the distance from the UK to declare political independence. But since they didn't want to replicate in the US the same problem they had just escaped, they deliberately created a very weak state. The idea of "checks and balances" was that each branch of the government would so jealously guard its own power that the government would be permanently divided against itself. But then the economic incentives of the first, second, and now third Industrial Revolution necessitated a drastic expansion of the administrative state, far beyond what the Constitution allows for, and so the result is a chimera that grafts a 18th century political structure onto a 21st century bureaucracy.PyrrhoManiac1_{October 27, 2022
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Beats me how judicial and administrative posts are political appointments in the US.Alan Fox_{October 27, 2022
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Random forensic audits of elections by a trusted and independent body is not a bad idea.
A trusted and independent body? That would indeed be a good idea. That used to be said of the Supreme Court, but not now.Alan Fox_{October 27, 2022
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That’s kinda what’s been going on the past 2 years
Not hearing much in the way of evidence. Is Sidney Powell still defending her claims? The pillow guy?Alan Fox_{October 27, 2022
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2020 election was corrupted by widespread voter fraud then they should bring the evidence before the courts or provide it to law That’s kinda what’s been going on the past 2 yearsAaronS1978_{October 27, 2022
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William J Murray/20
If a major contingent of the US public believes – for whatever reason – that an election was not fair and call for forensic, investigatory audits to resolve the matter, any resistance to such audits should, IMO, be taken as a de facto admission of cheating
People hold all manner of beliefs. If some believe the 2020 election was corrupted by widespread voter fraud then they should bring the evidence before the courts or provide it to law enforcement Without such evidence there is no need for an investigation as they have not shown there is anything to investigate. Pandering to fantasists only encourages them.
Forensic audits of elections should be common, even routine, in order to assure the public of the validity of the election.
Random forensic audits of elections by a trusted and independent body is not a bad idea.Seversky_{October 27, 2022
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“KF reinforces my point.“ You have also done a pretty go job at reinforcing mineAaronS1978_{October 27, 2022
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@30
Mutiny and voyage of folly on the ship of state are serious things. That needs to be faced squarely, whatever one may think of philosopher kings.
I must say, I quite strongly disagree: Plato's metaphor is not separable from his critique of democracy. Plato envisions the polis as a unified, organic whole -- this is why the analogy between the polis and psyche works at all in the first place, and that's what structures the whole dialogue. The 'ship of state' is another way of impressing upon us the idea that the polis is a unified thing that has a unifying purpose (as ships do). The main problem that Plato sees with democracy is that the people are hugely vulnerable to charismatic demagogues (like Alcibiades): people who will lie to them, flatter them, tell them what they want to hear and not what is true or justified, indulge their fantasies of conquest and rule, stoke their hopes and fears, and use their adulation of him to enrich himself and the cronies that attach themselves to him. This is very much how Thucydides depicts people like Alcibiades and Creon. With that context in mind, Plato's project is this: how to describe what a society must be like if it is to be ensured against the kinds of charismatic demagogues whose war-mongering led Athens into humiliating defeat. It's a further question whether Plato's project succeeds. I myself think that Plato's project is a complete and utter failure and that Plato was too smart not to notice this, and that's why he restarts the entire project of political philosophy when he writes Laws. But that's a whole separate topic!PyrrhoManiac1_{October 27, 2022
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F/N: Plato's critique of democracies has sobering points, which is why the project to create modern constitutional government was so hard. Here is what I am specifically pointing out:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
Mutiny and voyage of folly on the ship of state are serious things. That needs to be faced squarely, whatever one may think of philosopher kings.kairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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PM1, they played games with audits. A forensic audit by people qualified to investigate in ways that produce evidence that is court-worthy is a whole 'nother animal than in effect a half baked recount that implicitly assumes no material wrongdoing happened. KFkairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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@20
If a major contingent of the US public believes – for whatever reason – that an election was not fair and call for forensic, investigatory audits to resolve the matter, any resistance to such audits should, IMO, be taken as a de facto admission of cheating.
I think this "for whatever reason" needs to be a bit more nuanced. Suppose that a sizeable contingent of the electorate believes that the election was unfair because they have been lied to. Suppose, further, that attempts to debunk the lie are ignored. (This is quite easy to do, given how polarized we are with regard to the sources of information we consume.) Under those conditions, would you still content that a refusal to conduct an audit is an implicit admission of guilt? @27
This is the precise problem highlighted by Plato in his ship of state parable.
Plato's main point in that parable is that democracy is a terrible form of government (indeed, the second-to-worst): the ignorant, uneducated masses lack knowledge of the Good, insist on their own opinions, are unable to cooperate because they cannot agree on what is good, and refuse to acknowledge the presence of knowledge of the Good in their midst (the navigator, who represents the properly educated philosopher-king). But unless you are endorsing Plato's criticism of democracy, I'm not sure why Plato is relevant to the discussion of what can go amiss in modern elections.PyrrhoManiac1_{October 27, 2022
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AF, instead, you reinforce my point by your willful blindness in the face of concrete historical case which BTW is also key background to the current flare up in Ukraine. This is the precise problem highlighted by Plato in his ship of state parable. Which of course you and others have refused to take to heart. There is no responsible doubt that powerful factions in the US willfully put in place changes to elections they could not not have known are conducive to fraud, and what is more now the pandemic excuse is fading they are trying to make them permanent. It is time to draw due, harsh conclusions in defence of civilisation. That includes recognising that those who refuse to recognise danger are making themselves part of the danger. KFkairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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DUPLICATEAlan Fox_{October 27, 2022
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And, it is a clear, documented case that highlights that something went very wrong in 2020.
KF reinforces my point.Alan Fox_{October 27, 2022
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AS78, there has always been fraud, but the issue is breakdown of the integrity of the system. If the US could survive 1876, it can survive this, but they/you need to fix the flaws. Ukraine 2004 is no model for any sane political system. And, it is a clear, documented case that highlights that something went very wrong in 2020. Which, was debated live here at UD; indeed, the two main diagrams put up for record were created at that time. The Russian General Staff's view on colour revolutions as in effect 4th gen war operations also should be pondered. KFkairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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WJM, I agree. KFkairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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AF, fail, I have lived long enough to observe the ebb and flow of elections under responsible and irresponsible management in several jurisdictions. I have seen spoiler candidates trigger a split vote loss, I have seen elections won on hope and lost on dissatisfaction, I have even seen loss of a winnable election by party split just before the vote leading to suppression of supporter turnout. All of these were legitimate outcomes as is the ongoing drama in the UK that saw resignation of a PM, royal reception of a new one two days before HM died (I suspect she had a booster blood transfusion, judging by a blue hand), then a fresh resignation and new prime minister six weeks or so later. That too is a legitimate process in the Westminster system. What is described for Ukraine 2004 is different, a mass use of lower integrity voting systems opened up material fraud and caused chaos. BTW, a material contributory cause to the Russian incursions since 2014. The US Congress was advised of same in testimony and went ahead with setting up the same low integrity systems. As for the notion that proper ID cards should be presented before voting is racist, that's rubbish, highly suspicious rubbish. In my region, it is standard to have id's, and there are even specific voter ID cards. The Afro-Caribbean belt, FYI. The patterns I see in the US point to willful intent to enable material fraud and to marginalise calls or evidence to reform what is wrong. The result is erosion of the credibility of the system, now compounded by obvious reichstag fire incident lawfare. The only thing that will really restore integrity and confidence is photo id cards backed, in person voting using paper ballots with close scrutineering and open hand counts also closely scrutineered. Voter registration should also be scrutineered. A truth and reconciliation commission might allow for resolving major wrongdoing, backed by court cases. And, more. KFkairosfocus_{October 27, 2022
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My side wins: an honest election. My side loses: it was stolen. Democracy (if it ever existed for the majority of citizens in the US) is doomed. Doomed, I tells ya!Alan Fox_{October 27, 2022
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If a major contingent of the US public believes - for whatever reason - that an election was not fair and call for forensic, investigatory audits to resolve the matter, any resistance to such audits should, IMO, be taken as a de facto admission of cheating. Forensic audits of elections should be common, even routine, in order to assure the public of the validity of the election.William J Murray_{October 26, 2022
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I don’t really think there’s ever been honest election at anytime of my life, and the people that think this previous election was honest are completely insane. It’s almost a matter of what presidential hopeful cheats better Nixon got caught but I guarantee you people have been cheating far before that Ross Perot was the whole reason George W. Bush Senior didn’t win the election and we got that bullshit President Clinton, I doubt this was just coincidence It is highly likely that G-DUBS, George W. Bush son won through dishonest electoral college shenanigans. Brobama conveniently ran against two crap quality presidential hopefuls which is was probably staged Similar to G-DUBs and Slobama Trump got in through electoral vote shenanigans and well, he was running up against an evil pile of crap And Joebama (literally the worst of the 5 mentioned) magically acquired an enormous number of votes that came out of nowhere that managed to help him win, and more people voted in this election and they were actual voters….. If you really believe that, this particular liberal win in 2020 was honest then: 1.) you are a liberal 2.) you are biased 3.) you’re insane 4.) you are drinking the koolaid We have progressively gotten worse and worse presidents since George W Senior, and I don’t think a single one of them got in honestlyAaronS1978_{October 26, 2022
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Relatd, refusal to attend to relevant cases and lessons bought at horrible cost has a name. Folly. Here, compounded by the presentation of testimony to the US Congress, so they were duty bound to know and act better. KFkairosfocus_{October 26, 2022
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Sev, my general opinion of the reliability of the media if fully stated would likely get me sued and these days with out of control juries assessed for hundreds of millions or more, possibly swatted and subjected to kill zone ambush 5 am arrest. Rather than trying to derail into side discussions on what you think of Gateway Pundit or Alex Jones, there is a horrific, sobering reality on the table anchored on a telling historic case and testimony to Congress. Deal with it. KF PS, here is the underlying document on PA, https://www.scribd.com/document/602969873/PA-Officials-Sent-Out-240-000-Ballots-to-Unverified-Voters#from_embedkairosfocus_{October 26, 2022
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Seversky at 15, Alex Jones is a non-entity to me. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't exist, along with a bunch of similar commentators.relatd_{October 26, 2022
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