Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

For record: Questions on the logical and scientific status of design theory for objectors (and supporters)

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Over the past several days, I have been highlighting poster children of illogic and want of civility that are too often found among critics to design theory – even, among those claiming to be standing on civility and to be posing unanswerable questions, challenges or counter-claims to design theory.

I have also noticed the strong (but patently ill-founded) feeling/assumption among objectors to design theory that they have adequately disposed of the issues it raises and are posing unanswerable challenges in exchanges

A capital example of this, was the suggestion by ID objector Toronto, that the inference to best current explanation used by design thinkers, is an example of question-begging circular argument. Here, again is his attempted rebuttal:

Kairosfocus [Cf. original Post, here]: “You are refusing to address the foundational issue of how we can reasonably infer about the past we cannot observe, by working back from what causes the sort of signs that we can observe. “

[Toronto:] Here’s KF with his own version of “A concludes B” THEREFORE “B concludes A”.

(Yes, as the links show, this is a real example of the type of “unanswerable” objections being touted by opponents of design theory. Several more like this are to be found here and here, in the recent poster-child series.)

But, it should be obvious that the abductive argument pioneered in science by Peirce addresses the question of how empirical evidence can support a hypothesis or explanatory model (EM) as a “best explanation” on an essentially inductive basis, where the model is shown to imply the already known observations, O1 . . . On, and may often be able to predict further observations P1 . . . Pn:

EM = > {O1, O2, . . . On}, {P1, P2, . . . Pm}

Now, the first problem here is that there is a counterflow between the direction of logical implication, from EM to O’s and P’s, and that of empirical support, from O’s and P’s to EM. It would indeed be question-begging to infer from the fact that EM – if true – would indeed entail the O’s and P’s, plus the observation of these O’s and P’s, that EM is true.

But, guess what: this is a general challenge faced by all explanatory models or theories in science

For, in general, to infer that “explained” O’s and P’s entail the truth of EM, would be to commit a fallacy, affirming the consequent; essentially, confusing that EM being so is sufficient for O’s and P’s to be so, with that the O’s and P’s also therefore entail that EM is so.

That is, implication is not equivalence.

(One rather suspects that, Toronto was previously unaware of this broad challenge to scientific reasoning. [That would be overwhelmingly likely, as the logical strengths and limitations of the methods and knowledge claims of science are seldom adequately taught in schools and colleges . . . and to call for this – as has happened in Louisiana etc, is too often treated by advocates of evolutionary materialism with talking points that this is “obviously” an attempt to inject the Creationism bogeyman into the hallowed halls of “science” education.] So, quite likely, Toronto has seen the problem for the first time in connexion with attempts to find objections to design theory and has assumed that this is a problem that is a peculiar challenge to that suspect notion. But, plainly, it is not.)

The answer to this challenge, from Newton forward, has been to acknowledge that scientific theories are to be empirically tested and shown to be reliable so far, but are subject to correction in light of new empirical evidence and/or gaps in logic. Provisional knowledge, in short. Yet another case where the life of reason must acknowledge that trust – the less politically correct but apt word is: faith – is an inextricable, deeply intertwined component of our systems of knowledge and our underlying worldviews.

But, a second challenge emerges.

For, explanatory models are often not unique. We may well have EM1, EM2, . . . EMk, which may actually be empirically equivalent, or may all face anomalies that none are able to explain so far. So, how does one pick a best model, EMi, without begging big questions?

It is simple to state – but far harder to practice: once one seriously compares uncensored major alternative explanatory models on strengths, limitations and difficulties regarding factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power, and draws conclusions on a provisional basis, this reasonably warrants the best of the candidates. That is, if there is a best candidate. (Sometimes, there is not. In that case, we live with alternatives, and in a surprising number of cases, it has turned out on further probing that the models are mathematically equivalent or are linked to a common underlying framework, or are connected to underlying worldview perspectives in ways that do not offer an easy choice.)

Such an approach is well within the region of inductive reasoning, where empirical evidence provides material support for confidence in – but not undeniable proof of – conclusions. Where, these limitations of inductive argument are the well known, common lot we face as finite, fallible, morally struggling, too often gullible, and sometimes angry and ill-willed human beings.

When it comes to explanatory models of the deep past of origins, we face a further challenge.

For, we cannot inspect the actual deep past, it is unobservable. (There is a surprisingly large number of unobserved entities in science, e.g. electrons, strings, the remote past and so forth. These, in the end are held on an inference to best explanation basis in light of connexions to things we can and do observe. That is, they offer elegantly simple unifying explanatory integration and coherence to our theories. But, we must never become so enamoured of these constructs that we confuse them for established fact beyond doubt or dispute. Indeed, we can be mistaken about even directly observable facts. [Looks like that just happened to me with the identity of a poster of one comment a few days ago, apologies again for the misidentification.])

So, applying Newton’s universality principle, what we do is to observe the evident traces of the remote past. We then set up and explore circumstances in the present, were we can see if there are known causal factors that reliably lead to characteristic effects that are directly comparable to the traces of the past. When that is so, we have a basis for inferring that we can treat the traces from the past as signs that the same causal factor is the best explanation.

Put in such terms, this is obviously reasonable.

Two problems crop up. First, too often, in origins science, there is a resort to a favoured explanation despite the evident unreliability of the signs involved, because of the dominance of a school of thought that suppresses serious alternatives. Second, there can be signs that are empirically reliable that cut across the claims of a dominant school of thought. Design theorists argue that both of these have happened with the currently dominant evolutionary materialist school of thought. Philip Johnson’s reply to Richard Lewontin on a priori materialism in science is a classic case in point – one that is often dismissed but (kindly note, Seversky et al) has never been cogently answered:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  

. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

This example (and the many others of like ilk) should suffice to show that the objectors to design theory do not have a monopoly on scientific or logical knowledge and rationality, and that they can and do often severely and mistakenly caricature the thought of design thinkers to the point of making outright blunders. Worse, they then too often take excuse of that to resort to ad hominem attacks that cloud issues and unjustly smear people, polarising and poisoning the atmosphere for discussion. For instance, it escapes me how some could ever have imagined – or imagined that others would take such a claim as truthful – that it is a “lighthearted” dig to suggest that I would post links to pornography.

Such a suggestion is an insult, one added to the injury of red herrings led away to strawmannish caricatures and dismissals.

In short, there is a significant problem among objectors to design theory that they resort to a habitual pattern of red herring distractors, led away to strawman caricatures soaked in poisonous ad hominem attacks, and then set alight through snide or incendiary rhetoric. Others who do not go that far, enable, tolerate or harbour such mischief. And, at minimum, even if there is not a resort to outright ad hominems, there is a persistent insistence on running after red herrings on tangents to strawman caricatures, and a refusal to accept cogent corrections of such misrepresentations.

That may be angrily brushed aside.

So, I point out that the further set of problems with basic logic, strawman caricatures and personal attacks outlined in the follow up post here. Let us pick up a particular example of the evasiveness and denial of well-established points, also from Toronto:

Physics both restricts and insists on different combinations of “information”.

Why is the word information in scare quotes?

Because, believe it or not, as has been repeatedly seen at UD, many objectors to design theory want to contend that there is no algorithmic, digitally – i.e. discrete-state — coded specifically functional (and complex) information in D/RNA. In reply, I again clip from Wikipedia, speaking against known ideological interest:

The genetic code is the set of rules by which information encoded in genetic material (DNA or mRNA sequences) is translated into proteins (amino acid sequences) by living cells.

The code defines how sequences of three nucleotides, called codons, specify which amino acid will be added next during protein synthesis.

Hopefully, these examples should suffice to begin to clear the air for a serious focus on substantial issues.

So, I think the atmosphere has now – for the moment – been sufficiently cleared of the confusing and polarising smoke of burning, ad hominem soaked strawman caricatures of design theory to pose the following questions. They are taken from a response to recent comments (with slight adjustments), and were – unsurprisingly, on track record – ignored by the objector to whom they were directed.

I now promote them to the level of a full, duly headlined UD post:

1: Is argument by inference to best current explanation a form of the fallacy of question-begging (as was recently asserted by design objector “Toronto”)? If you think so, why?

2: Is there such a thing as reasonable inductive generalisation that can identify reliable empirical signs of causal factors that may act on objects, systems, processes or phenomena etc., including (a) mechanical necessity leading to low contingency natural regularity, (b) chance contingency leading to stochastic distributions of outcomes and (c) choice contingency showing itself by certain commonly seen traces familiar from our routine experiences and observations of design? If not, why not?

3: Is it reasonable per sampling theory, that we should expect a chance based sample that stands to the population as one straw to a cubical hay bale 1,000 light years thick – rather roughly about as thick as our galaxy – more or less centred on Earth, to pick up anything but straw (the bulk of the population)? If you think so, why (in light of sampling theory – notice, NOT precise probability calculations)? [Cf. the underlying needle in a haystack discussion here on.]

4: Is it therefore reasonable to identify that functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information (FSCO/I, the relevant part of Complex Specified Information as identified by Orgel and Wicken et al. and as later quantified by Dembski et al) is – on a broad observational base – a reliable sign of design? Why or why not?

5: Is it reasonable to compare this general analysis to the grounding of the statistical form of the second law of thermodynamics, i.e. that under relevant conditions, spontaneous large fluctuations from the typical range of the bulk of [microstate] possibilities will be vanishingly rare for reasonably sized systems? If you think not, why not?

6: Is digital symbolic code found to be stored in the string-structure configuration of chained monomers in D/RNA molecules, and does such function in algorithmic ways in protein manufacture in the living cell? If, you think not, why not in light of the generally known scientific findings on transcription, translation and protein synthesis?

7: Is it reasonable to describe such stored sequences of codons as “information” in the relevant sense? Why or why not?

8: Is the metric, Chi_500 = Ip*S – 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold and/or the comparable per aspect design inference filter as may be seen in flowcharts, a reasonable quantification or procedural application of the set of claims made by design thinkers? Or, any other related or similar metric, as has been posed by Durston et al, or Dembski, etc? Why, or why not – especially in light of modelling theory?

9: Is it reasonable to infer on this case that the origin of cell based life required the production of digitally coded FSCI — dFSCI — in string data structures, together with associated molecular processing machinery [cf. the vid here], joined to gated encapsulation, metabolism and a von Neumann kinematic self replicator [vNSR]? Why or why not?

10: Is it reasonable to infer that such a vNSR is an irreducibly complex entity and that it is required before there can be reproduction of the relevant encapsulated, gated, metabolising cell based life to allow for natural selection across competing sub populations in ecological niches? Why or why not? (And, if you think not, what is your empirical, observational basis for thinking that available physical/chemical forces and processes in a warm little pond or the modern equivalent, can get us, step by step, by empirically warranted stages, to the living cell?)

11: Is it therefore a reasonable view to infer – on FSCO/I, dFSCI and irreducible complexity as well as the known cause of algorithms, codes, symbol systems and execution machinery properly organised to effect such – that the original cell based life is on inference to best current explanation [IBCE], credibly designed? Why, or why not?

12: Further, as the increments of dFSCI to create dozens of major body plans is credibly 10 – 100+ mn bits each, dozens of times over across the past 600 MY or so, and much of it on the conventional timeline is in a 5 – 10 MY window on earth in the Cambrian era, is it reasonable to infer further on IBCE that major body plans show credible evidence of design? If not, why not, on what empirically, observationally warranted step by step grounds?

13: Is it fair or not fair to suggest that on what we have already done with digital technology and what we have done with molecular nanotech applied to the cell, it is credible that a molecular nanotech lab several generations beyond Venter etc would be a reasonable sufficient cause for what we see? If not, why not? [In short, the issue is: is inference to intelligent design specifically an inference to “supernatural” design? In this context, what does “supernatural” mean? “Natural”? Why do you offer these definitions and why should we accept them?]

14: Is or is it not reasonable to note that in contrast to the tendency to accuse design thinkers of being creationists in cheap tuxedos who want to inject “the supernatural” into science and so to produce a chaotic unpredictability:

a: From Plato in The Laws Bk X on, the issue has been explanation by nature (= chance + necessity) vs ART or techne, i.e. purposeful and skilled intelligence acting by design,

b: Historically, modern science was largely founded by people thinking in a theistic frame of thought and/or closely allied views, and who conceived of themselves as thinking God’s creative and sustaining thoughts — his laws of governing nature — after him,

c: Theologians point out that the orderliness of God and our moral accountability imply an orderly and predictable world as the overwhelming pattern of events,

d: Where also, the openness to Divine action beyond the usual course of nature for good purposes, implies that miracles are signs and as such need to stand out against the backdrop of such an orderly cosmos? [If you think not, why not?]

15: In light of all these and more, is the concept that we may legitimately, scientifically infer to design on inductively grounded signs such as FSCO/I a reasonable and scientific endeavour? Why or why not?

16: In that same light, is it the case that such a design theory proposal has been disestablished by actual observations contrary to its pivotal inductions and inferences to best explanations? (Or, has the debate mostly pivoted on latter-day attempted redefinition of science and its methods though so-called methodological naturalism that a priori undercuts the credibility of “undesirable” explanatory models of the past?) Why do you come to your conclusion?

17: Is it fair to hold – on grounds that inference to the best evolutionary materialism approved explanation of the past is not the same as inference to the best explanation of the past in light of all reasonably possible causal factors that could have been at work – that there is a problem of evolutionary materialist ideological dominance of relevant science, science education, and public policy institutions? Why or why not?

The final question for reflection raises issues regarding the ethical-cultural implications for views on the above for origins science in society:

18: In light of concerns raised since Plato in The Laws Bk X on and up to the significance of challenge posed by Anscombe and others, that a worldview must have a foundational IS that can objectively ground OUGHT, how does evolutionary materialism – a descriptive term for the materialistic, blind- chance- and- necessity- driven- molecules- to- Mozart view of the world – cogently address morality in society and resolve the challenge that it opens the door to the rise of ruthless nihilistic factions whose view is in effect that as a consequence of living in a materialistic world, knowledge and values are inherently only subjective and/or relative so that might and manipulation make ‘right’?

 (NB: Those wishing to see how a design theory based view of origins would address these and related questions, (i) cf. the 101 level survey here on. Similarly, (ii) you are invited to look at the UD Weak argument correctives here, (iii) at the UD Glossary here, at UD’s definition of ID here, (iv) at a general purpose ID FAQ here, (v) at the NWE survey article on ID here (the Wikipedia one being an inaccurate and unfair hit piece) and (vi) at the background note here on.)

So, objectors to design theory, the ball is in your court. (NB: Inputs are also welcome from design theory supporters.)

How, then, do you answer? On what grounds? With what likely consequences for science, society, and civilisation? END

Comments
Kairosfocus- It appears that dr who is falsely claiming that you claimed life was just a chemical phenomenon:
Joe still seems to want to try and make the case that life isn’t a chemical phenomenon on two more U.D. posts. I wonder whether he’ll realise that he’s undermining something that Kairosfocus claimed earlier on the same thread.
I don't know of any IDist who thinks a living organism is reducible to chemical reactions, well because translation isn't reducible to chemical reactions and neither is fCSI. However it is very telling that dr who didn't produce your claim that he now sez I am undermining. And it is sweet that he didn't respond to my exposiong his ignorance but rather tried another round of bait-n-switch. And now petrushka has chimed in with his usual misunderstanding...Joe
August 29, 2012
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For the record, the translation of nucleotides into amino acids is not a chemical reaction and cannot be described by chemical reactions. Therefor what dr who sez about "that's all we observe when we actually physically examine life" demonstrates either deception or ignorance on his part.Joe
August 29, 2012
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CR: Whether “design” is the best explanation is based on implicit assumptions about knowledge, such as if it is complex, whether it is genuinely created, etc. KF: That boils down to dismissively saying that I am begging questions, without substantiating that rather loaded implication. I'm suggesting that the argument you presented in parochial. Specifically, it's narrow in scope because that it fails to take into account our best, current explanations, including epistemology. KF: Now, I have pointed out how this is a major problem with objectors to design theory, and have taken time to show how IBCE works in science as an inductive pattern of reasoning. Do you or do you agree with that analysis, why or why not. Except, using empirical observations to test theories isn't induction. What you described is more along the lines of Critical Rationalism, which is based on criticism and rejects Justificationism. Nor can we use observations to prove any theory is more probable because any piece of evidence is compatible with an infinite number of theories we have yet to propose. Some other theory could turn out more "probable", which we have yet to conceive. As such, probability is simply invalid in the sense you're trying to use it. The validity of probability is another aspect of human knowledge which people have difficult recognizing as an idea that would be subject to criticism. To reiterate: the fundamental flaw in creationism (and its variants) is the same fundamental flaw in pre-enlightenment, authoritative conceptions of human knowledge: its account of how the knowledge in adaptations could be created is either missing, supernatural or illogical. No one has managed to formulate a "principle of induction" that actually works in practice. Nor is inductivism a form of adductive reasoning. So, induction in the sense you're appealing to exhibits the same flaw. The assumption in your argument is that knowledge, including observations from experimental testing, can be derived from experience or mechanically extracted from experience. However, progress doesn't come to us in this form. For example, the evidence for Einstein's GR isn't a picture of space-time but a dot here on a screen, rather than somewhere else. The conjectured explanation came first. Einstein then tested his conjecture for internal consistency, before even bothering to test it experimentally. Previous conjectures were discarded before testing even occurs. It's only then do empirical observations come into play. In other words, theories are tested by observations, not derived from them. That an abstract designer with no defined limitations "did it" is a bad explanation because… - It fails to actually solve the question at hand (see my previous comment) - It's a bad explanation because it's easily varied. What method did the designer use? How did the designer know which genes would result in which proteins, etc.? As such, we need not bother with experimental tests. We discard an infinite number of mere logical possibilities every day in every field of science. It's unclear why your designer is any different. KF: Such an approach is well within the region of inductive reasoning, where empirical evidence provides material support for confidence in – but not undeniable proof of – conclusions. Where, these limitations of inductive argument are the well known, common lot we face as finite, fallible, morally struggling, too often gullible, and sometimes angry and ill-willed human beings. As Popper would say, you only think you're using induction. Experimental testing is theory laden. Explanations use the unseen to explain the seen. So, they cannot be derived from observations. The idea that a microscope gives you an accurate view of a sample is based on an explanatory theory of how microscopes work; which itself is based on further explanatory theories. In addition, it's a hard to vary explanation as it outlines specific ways by which you can get the wrong answer. Failure to setup the microscope or sample incorrectly and the observations are not accurate. This too is an explanation, which, as you pointed out, can be wrong and is accepted tentatively. So, not only is it a problem for all theories in science, but it's a problem for all observations, including those we use to test theories. Nor do observations tell us where to look as means to criticize theories. Rather, we look for evidence that can be explained by one theory, but not another. This information simply isn't present in experience nor can it be mechanically derived from it, either. Tests tell us where to look, which cannot be devised in the absence of theories. Theories do not come from observations. So, in the case of creationism, the account of how the knowledge in adaptations could be created is supernatural. In the case of the current crop of ID, the account is absent. And in the case of induction, the account is illogical. Note, that in the above paragraph, I specifically said the "current crop of ID" as there could be good explanations regarding how the biosphere was designed. However, an abstract designer with no defined limitations is not one of them.critical rationalist
August 29, 2012
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Well dr who has responded to me but the response is totally evidence-free. Earth to dr who- "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"- hitchens As for the authors of the books in the Bible, well the OT was authored by Moses and the NT was authored by various people. see torahJoe
August 29, 2012
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Earth to dr who:
Kairosfocus asks whether or not abductive reasoning can be valid in science in his first point. I’ve agreed that it can be, and shown him how it’s done to effect, and what the results would be in relation to the OOL. I know what I’m doing, and why. I’ll explain in detail sometime.
What is the evidence that life is ONLY a chemical phenomenon? Oh, that’s right there isn’t any such evidence so your “reasoning” fails at the start. Also Christians are OK with humans authoring the Bible. But please keep ignoring that and pressing on anyway. You make my point for me-> that it is a waste of time trying to reason with you.Joe
August 29, 2012
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Great stuff guys, keep up the great work! They certainly are seated at the edge of the fence, biting nails.wateron1
August 29, 2012
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Just think, if you posted your OP over on TSZ it would be ignored by your opponents in TWO places and your invitation would still be open! Face it TSZ, you can't make a positive case for your position with or without IDists posting there. And seeing that you are unwilling and unable to do so do you really think Kairosfocus is going to waste his time on you? We know there isn't anything we can say to convince you of the merits of ID. All we can do is keep pointing out the logic, reasoning and evidence that supports the design inference. Then sit back and watch you get your panties in a knot because you know your position doesn't have any of that and it bothers you.Joe
August 29, 2012
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Onlookers, the invitation to answer to the matters in the original post is still open. Let us see if any objector is able to address them on the merits instead of on derail attempts. KFkairosfocus
August 29, 2012
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onlooker- You are obviously confused. YOU have been corrected on your nonsensical allegations time and again, yet you persist. KF does not employ double-standards. I am only uncivil to the uncivil, whereas you and your ilk are uncivil, period. That you keep refusing to acknowledge that exposes your agenda of deception and dishonesty. As for Elizabeth Liddle it is obvious to any objective observer that she was banned due to her continued lies, misrepresentations, equivocations and insipidity.Joe
August 29, 2012
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Onlooker, please leave this thread and any other thread that I own. I have already laid out the reason you requested and you have chosen to try to derail discussion in spite of having adequate information -- and current incidents further back it up, including a case of outright insult -- to answer any reasonable query, and a repeated request to focus on topic. Your disruptive conduct has removed you from the circle of the civil. Good day. KFkairosfocus
August 29, 2012
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kairosfocus,
You have been given already, adequate information for any reasonable person to understand the matter you have chosen as a useful lever to try to pull this thread off topic.
I am not trying to pull this thread off topic [False], I am trying to get answers to questions raised in other threads which you have chosen to continue discussing here. [False] If you would like to start yet another thread specifically for those questions, I will be happy to continue there. [You have insisted on derailing in the teeth of specific warning, and have disregarded answers on your tangential point hat should be satisfactory for a reasonable person; and now blandly deny that this is what you are doing.] You have not, by any objective standard, provided adequate information. [False] If you disagree, I challenge you to link to exactly where you have done so. [You need no links, as you know the current remarks and can easily research the history, which will show just what the "enabling" by going along quietly with slander and worse in outright hate sites was.] There are two points under discussion. [No, you are being disruptive and have chosen to ignore both the topic for this thread where you are a guest, and have brushed aside TWO warnings to stop] The first is your claim that
The notion that a serious and genuinely civil objector cannot post over an extended period at UD is patently false.
I have repeatedly asked you to demonstrate exactly why Elizabeth Liddle was so offensive, relative to the ID proponents here, that she deserved to be banned. You have not directly addressed this question. In your interjection into my comment above you say that
You further know or should know that the critical issue with EL was, and is, enabling behaviour for the uncivil....
Are you asserting that starting The Skeptical Zone was the reason for her banning? [no and you know that] If so, do you have any evidence to support that? The second issue is your demonstrated double standard. [This is a turnabout false accusation, in the teeth of an ongoing demonstration that I am in fact not exerting a double standard] You claim that you are refusing to participate at The Skeptical Zone because one or more participants there behave in what you consider to be an uncivil manner at a site other than The Skeptical Zone. [False, there is more than enough incivility there and I have for good reason no confidence that there will be any discipline that will restrain the known denizens of hate sites who freely participate there] Yet, you continue to be active at Uncommon Descent despite having it repeatedly pointed out to you that at least one participant here behaves grossly uncivilly on both his own blog and The Skeptical Zone. [You KNOW that he person who has misbehaved has been publicly rebuked by me, and that he is under probation and investigation as we speak.] This has nothing to do with whether or not you criticized one of your allies. [On the contrary, you are trying here to deflect the evidence that you just made a willful false accusation] So long as he remains an active participant here, you cannot use one measure for Uncommon Descent and another for The Skeptical Zone without opening yourself to charges of hypocrisy. [You and your ilk will always try to drag those who are of a different standard down to your own level. You know someone is being investigated and has been publicly rebuked, and no that is not enough, you want to keep on going to distract from dealing with the substantial issues that you are ever so eager to avoid.] You have been repeatedly, clearly, and unambiguously corrected on these matters. [No, YOU have been corrected for insistent derailing] Your failure to respond to this correction [No, having already answered a question in enough detail that a serious person could follow up, and having asked to return to focus on a main issue in the entire debate, you wish to derail] demonstrates a clear abdication of your duty of care to honesty and intellectual integrity. For shame. [A classic turnabout false accusation] Good day, sir. _________ Onlookers, I will leave this post up, to document the pattern of disruptive behaviour that has so often been used to try to distract, derail and poison discussion on substantial matters. (I add: Where, they knew that I do not hold responsibility for moderation at UD, and should have known that their questions, if they were genuine, could have easily been directed to the Blog Owner in any one of several active threads. They chose instead to try to derail this thread from a serious focus, poisoning the atmosphere for serious discussion. They should not be rewarded with success.) Let the record stand that when a serious set of responses to irresponsible commentary and distortions were on the table, the sock puppet known as "Onlooker" and others of like ilk chose to resort to derail attempts. Ask yourselves what they are so afraid of and/or are unable to respond to on the merits. KFonlooker
August 29, 2012
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kairosfocus,
The notion that a serious and genuinely civil objector cannot post over an extended period at UD is patently false.
Please then demonstrate exactly why Elizabeth Liddle was so offensive, relative to the ID proponents here, that she deserved to be banned. As an observer, it looked to me like her only sin was to argue effectively against some of the regulars here.
O/L, you have already been answered on the matter, and are resorting to one of the trollish tactics, drumbeat repetition of already adequately answered points in attempts to drag serious threads off track into endless crocodile death rolls. (Take this as a warning.)
Could you please respond in a seperate comment so that I can see it in the new comments listing? I just saw your interjection into my comment accidently. Such are easily missed. To the meat of your response: I have not seen any explanation from you as to why Elizabeth Liddle was so offensive that she deserved to be banned. Your claim that UD is a viable venue for civilized discussion of ID is therefore still unsupported. You have a duty of care to the truth that you are not upholding. You have also been repeatedly corrected on the double standard you demonstrate by refusing to comment on The Skeptical Zone while continuing to participate on UD. You cannot use one excuse to avoid substantive discussion there while ignoring exactly the same situation here. Either a forum is guilty by association with the other fora in which its participants post or it is not. I must warn you, as a courtesy, that ignoring these corrections opens you to charges of hypocrisy (or, equally regretably, lack of intellectual courage). I look forward to your references to Elizabeth Liddle's uncivil behavior and to your participation at The Skeptical Zone. ________ Onlooker, final warning. You have been given already, adequate information for any reasonable person to understand the matter you have chosen as a useful lever to try to pull this thread off topic. You have repeatedly chosen to ignore the focal issue here, and to try to drag the thread off track again and again; pointedly ignoring the focal issues that were specifically raised to you. You also know that there is a present investigation of someone else who is under probation with an inch of leeway or less. You further know or should know that the critical issue with EL was, and is, enabling behaviour for the uncivil; which is also the context in which -- for cause -- I refuse to participate in her blog, or other sites that are even worse. As can easily be seen above, there is opportunity for you and for other objectors here to raise substantial issues [even, by simply linking], but by and large they have not done so. That itself speaks volumes on the real balance on the merits. Your repeated, insistent attempts to derail this thread off into personalities show why. Nor will I dignify your repeated misbehaviour with a full comment response. Now, here is the final warning: either deal with the focal matter for this thread -- which was to begin with specifically directed to you -- or leave this thread and keep out of any other thread where I am thread owner. In short, for cause, you have now passed strike two. KFonlooker
August 29, 2012
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And Alan Fox chimes in:
3 Assume all members are posting in good faith!!!
That is a bad assumption to make given the regular posters there. And it is obvious to see that the regulars do NOT follow that rule.Joe
August 29, 2012
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This is TOO funny: dr who:
Let’s do abductive reasoning. Life is a chemical phenomenon.
What is the evidence that life is ONLY a chemical phenomenon? Oh, that's right there isn't any such evidence so your "reasoning" fails at the start. Toronto:
Our side has a mechanism to offer, yours doesn’t.
Yes, we do. Our mechanism is "design by an agency". And your mechanism has never been observed to construct anything.Joe
August 29, 2012
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CR: I do not have time just now to go on with a point by point. I will snip instead your first point and show how you are going off the rails by refusing to answer the pivotal questions 1 - 5:
Whether “design” is the best explanation is based on implicit assumptions about knowledge, such as if it is complex, whether it is genuinely created, etc.
That boils down to dismissively saying that I am begging questions, without substantiating that rather loaded implication. Now, I have pointed out how this is a major problem with objectors to design theory, and have taken time to show how IBCE works in science as an inductive pattern of reasoning. Do you or do you agree with that analysis, why or why not. Next I have applied this to the pivotal OOL context as this is the one where the favourite side track on how natural selection can do wonders is off the table. You need to explain on demonstrated observed cause in the present how codes, code string structures, algorithms and functionally specific and complex data expressed in codes, execution machinery properly organised, and the associated gated, encapsulated, metabolic automaton with a vNSR originated by chance and necessity in some warm little pond or the like environment. Once you do that, you are entitled to infer that such could cause the same in the past and is what is showing up in the traces we see in the present. Absent that -- and it is absent that -- it is you who are begging big questions. We know where we routinely observe codes, algorithms, execution machinery and the like coming from. Design. We have serious analysis on needles in haystacks that show why it is maximally unlikely that such would happen by blind chance and mechanical necessity. Yes, we have not built a full vNSR yet, but the design studies have been done. We have rep rap in hand, a 3-d printer that is showing the general feasibility of self replication. This is also known to be designed. There are simply no good examples of FSCO/I based entities coming about in our observation by blind chance and blind necessity. If there were, we can be assured that this would be headlined far and wide and design theory would have been dead long since. If there were, this thread would have been inundated with definitive counter-examples. You have not got them. That is why we see the resort to a priorism of materialism in OOL and OO body plan discussions from your side. That is why we are seeing the gerrymandering of definitions of science and its methods. That is why we see the ruthless nihilist agit prop tactics. That is why, on the actual merits, we are taking FSCO/I as an empirically reliable sign of design. On that base, we can confidently infer that things which have it are designed and predict that per the needle in the haystack analysis, the hoped for counter examples will remain elusive, just like how perpetual motion machines seem to be ever so elusive. In that light, it is a reasonable inference that cell based life shows abundant signs of design. Going to a higher level, it is also a reasonable inference that he observed cosmos shows strong signs of being set up to provide a habitat for such life. If you are going to properly address these issues, take some time and clear the questions, especially the first cluster on methods and logic. Failing that, all that is likely to happen is embroiling yourselves in the usual ad hominem laced strawman caricature games that we are sick and tired of. KFkairosfocus
August 29, 2012
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F/N: I don't have time to bother with a point by point rebuttal to the sort of tangential discussions that are happening in TSZ. I will however headline a key case of willfully ignorant strawmannish distortions and deflections, this from JF in the same thread:
KF misunderstands Dembski’s argument. It is not about islands of function, and it is intended to apply to evolution after the Origin Of Life.
Evidently, JF has not even bothered to read the clip from WmAD in the linked intro page to the IOSE, where I cite from No Free Lunch, pp. 144 and 148:
p. 148: “The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [[cf. here below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole] . . .” p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
T, being an independently specifiable, hot or target zone in the wider field of possibilities, W, of at least 2^500 elements. This is expanded in later writings on specification, especially the work he did in 2005. In short Wm AD is indeed speaking of target zones of complex and specific function in large config spaces, i.e. islands of function. And I believe I have run across that term or the near equivalent in an early paper from WmAD. Next, the OOL context allows us to focus the matter most specifically because at that stage the confusing issue often injected by objectors is off the table. The question there is, the ORIGIN of encapsulated, gated, metabolic automata with vNSR self-replication on coded symbol strings. Where until the vNSR is in place, there is no genetically based reproduction to have differential reproductive success with through chance variation and environmental culling. What JF does not want to discuss is that this then focusses the issue on where does FSCO/I come from, especially coded, complex, specifically functional algorithmic info and associated execution machinery. And surely the point here is that we have to have clusters of mutually matched parts comprising a specific and complex, functionally co-ordinated cluster in the wider space of possibilities. FSCO/I is definitely relevant, and Dembski's wider CSI applies. That is the issue with questions 6 - 11 & 13 above. Then, we have resort to a further misrepresentation by snide almost implicit suggestion that I am not dealing with the onward issue of the rise of FSCO/I for the development of body-plan level biodiversity. But, of course, the very next question puts that in focus:
12: Further, as the increments of dFSCI to create dozens of major body plans is credibly 10 – 100+ mn bits each, dozens of times over across the past 600 MY or so, and much of it on the conventional timeline is in a 5 – 10 MY window on earth in the Cambrian era, is it reasonable to infer further on IBCE [inference to best current explanation] that major body plans show credible evidence of design? If not, why not, on what empirically, observationally warranted step by step grounds?
Notice, in each case the issue is not moving around within islands of function on an incremental basis, but the arrival at new shores of function on novel islands; i.e. the crossing of vast intervening seas of non-function by blind chance and mechanical necessity that cannot provide the sort of active information that cuts down such searches to manageable proportions. Which is what Weasel does by using a hotter colder oracle. And, observe the lack of responsible response to corrections to the root accusations, on the logic of induction. KF PS: This, from Patrick (the former Mathgrrl) is a classic of dismissive slander. I will markup within the comment:
The fact is that there is no scientific theory, or even hypothesis, of intelligent design.
[--> Big lie propaganda tactic refusal to acknowledge reality, probably driven by an a priori commitment to evolutionary materialism such that, by definition, if something does not kowtow to a priori materialism it is not to be accepted as science., That is, question-begging censorship.]
It explains no observations and makes no predictions.
[--> Another big lie false declaration. The observational base for the causal source of FSCO/I is all around us, with billions of instances. The crucial prediction is that there is a cluster of identified signs of design as cause, cf Q's 1 - 4 above, and that they will continue to be reliable signs of design as cause, per observation and needle int eh haystack analysis as to why. This last being similar tot he grounding of the statistical form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics as addressed in Q 5. There are also several subsidiary predictions that for instance bring up the debate over what was confidently and routinely dismissed as junk dna but is now increasingly seen to have function.]
There is no reasonable doubt after this many years that ID is anything other than a fundamentalist Christian political movement.
[ --> Another big lie, and the use of a term taken hostage and turned into a smear with implications of potentially violent terrorism etc. P knows or should know that the leading cluster of design thinkers come from a wide spectrum of beliefs and even diverse worldviews, and can by no means be equated with Young Earth Creationist, Bible-believing Christians or even Old Earth Creationist Christians of the Hugh Ross sort etc.]
The only reason to pay any attention to the IDCists is because of the political power their base wields.
[--> Yet another falsehood. The dozens of published peer-reviewed ID-supportive papers in the teeth of ruthless opposition say different to the above, and the exposure of ideological captivity of science and science education to a priori materialism associated with radical and unjustifiable attempted redefinitions of science and its methods is a significant issue, one that the wider public needs to consider. So are the sorts of threats to hold hostage children educated under the historically well established definition of science. Cf here on if you do not know what I am discussing. This rather reflects the recent agenda to tag those who stand for marriage as it has historically been understood for excellent and naturally obvious reasons, of "hate." In short we have slander here, associated with projection of "he hit back first."]
It is important to prevent them from destroying science education.
[--> The truth is that science and science education are -- as the linked just above shows -- being taken ideological captive to a priori evolutionary materialism, and that radical and unjustified redefinitions of science and its methods are being imposed by ideologues. Cf the declarations of NAS and NSTA here on, in context.]
If they didn’t pose that threat, they’d be of no more intellectual interest than the flat earthers or Velikovskyites.
[--> Dismissal by inapt invidious and unwarranted associations]
So you’re [profanity deleted] right — our focus has to be on winning.
[--> this is a sign of Plato's ruthless nihilistic might makes right nihilistic evolutionary materialism influenced factions pushing to have their way at any cost. We were warned about that 2350 years ago.]
kairosfocus
August 29, 2012
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Whether "design" is the best explanation is based on implicit assumptions about knowledge, such as if it is complex, whether it is genuinely created, etc. The evidence for the appearance of design is not only that its parts all serve a purpose, but if they were slightly altered they would serve that purpose less well, or not even at all. IOW, a good design, which is adapted for to serve a purpose, is hard to vary. So it's these adaptations by which it serves that purpose need to be explained. You recognize the need to explain the knowledge (as found in the genome) of how to transform matter into adoptions that serve a purpose, but then attempt to explain these features using a designer which serves the purpose of designing organisms. If we varied this designer, would it serve the purpose of designing organisms just as well? Doesn't this designer exhibit the signs of design, which you recognize as requiring an explanation? Specifically, the fundamental flaw in creationism (and its variants) is the same fundamental flaw in pre-enlightenment, authoritative conceptions of human knowledge: its account of how the knowledge in adaptations could be created is either missing, supernatural or illogical. In some cases, it's the very same theory, in that specific types of knowledge, such as cosmology or moral knowledge, was dictated to early humans by supernatural beings. In other cases, parochial aspects of society, such as the rule of monarchs in governments or the existence of God, are protected by taboos or taken so uncritically for granted that they are not recognized as ideas. What explanation does ID present as to how the knowledge found in adaptations was created? For example, merely saying some designer "just was" complete with the knowledge of how to build biological adaptations serves no explanatory purpose. This is because one could more economically state organism's "just appeared", complete with the knowledge of how to build biological adaptations. In other words, the current crop of ID does not actually explain how the knowledge, as found in the genome, was created. It merely pushes the problem into some supposedly unexplainable realm. ______ CR: Kindly, have the good manners to begin your response to an agenda of quite specific questions by actually addressing the questions on the table, say, starting with no 1 instead of pushing in a string of tangential talking points. Had you begun with Q 1 you would not have tangled up yourself in tangents and distortions as above. KFcritical rationalist
August 29, 2012
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F/N: Folks, let us focus on the issue in the main. If we allow tangents to pull us off-track, they will achieve their purpose. KFkairosfocus
August 29, 2012
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Upright Biped, pardon? sock? sergio _________ S, sometimes socks are made into puppets slipped over the hand and used to entertain children. The term has been extended to the setting up of a web identity used as a front for an agenda that is hidden from view, This is different from protective anonymity, or the use of a web name to diminish email and spamming problems. KFsergiomendes
August 29, 2012
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Is commenter the sergio mendes the sock not? _________ UB: Sergio is a young member of the LDS sent here to study the design theory by a leader. English is not his first language. KFUpright BiPed
August 28, 2012
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kairosfocus, "O/L, you have already been answered on the matter, and are resorting to one of the trollish tactics, drumbeat repetition of already adequately answered points in attempts to drag serious threads off track into endless crocodile death rolls. (Take this as a warning.)" warning equals possibility disappear of onlooker statements without explanation comparable of Barry arrington, o change into words of nonsense comparable of scordova? need do i should concern of statements of mine submitted improperly? sergio ___________ S: You have very little to be concerned over. O/L has been using abusive tactics, and has been warned to get back in line. He is the actual person to whom the list of questions was first addressed. He ignored it to try to derail this thread through a piling- on game with someone else who has been publicly rebuked and warned that he is on probation, with an inch or less of leeway, under judgement that may well issue in suspension or permanent banning; though that final decision is in other hands. (I believe, BTW, in suspension as a first step in cases that are likely to be redeemable. But, it is an open question whether this one has gone too far and may be showing himself incorrigible.) That is an act of animosity, against a man who has the mitigating factor that Darwinist thugs tried to get him fired, interfering with the reputation of a company that person worked for. O/L has therefore been told to stop dumping garbage on my lawn, and if he continues -- and I suspect he is a sock puppet of one of the more abusive objectors out there, quite possibly associated with publishing of defaced photographs used to mock and delineate targets for the lunatic fringe, as well as threats against my family -- O/L will at first level be told to remove himself from threads I post for disruptive behaviour. Beyond that, insistent abuse of the privilege of commenting will lead to banning. You see that the situation is one of action for cause, not the arbitrary censorship in light of inability to handle issues on the merits that spiteful objectors to design theory -- O/L being a specific exemplar -- slanderously pretend and project. As for Mr Arrington's removal of insistently distractive comments in recent threads, he has in fact served prior notice, having had long experience of the use of side-tracking to derail threads of commentary. I suspect Sal may be doing a convert to Lorem Ipsum or the equivalent to deal with much the same but have not been tracking. I do have a brewing multidimensional national crisis to deal with. In the meanwhile, do look at the larger picture of the pretence that design theory rests on basic logical fallacies that I have exposed in the OP, and the list of questions I have put as a challenge to objectors who are ever so fond of making ad hominem laced strawman attacks against design theory and thinkers. Look carefully at the sort of objector responses that are happening live while we speak, and see if now that I have decided enough is enough and am putting up poster children of irresponsible behaviour and am now putting the issues that seem pivotal in the form of a syllabus of pointed questions to substantiate assertions, there is a ready and responsible response from the other side. Let Petrushka's distortion of the nature of design theory in a debate counter-offer help you understand what is really going on, and just how irresponsible and disruptive too many objectors to design theory are. KFsergiomendes
August 28, 2012
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BA: A real book-let, that! Good catch and useful reading. I note: Made simple --> For dummies --> For complete idiots. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2012
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Petrushka: It is obvious that the problem at stake starts from understanding the logic of inductive reasoning, and goes on to the usual scientific and linked issues then onwards to implications for society. Remember, it is your side that has pretended to the world for a long time that we are begging questions and distorting the nature of logic and science. If you cannot show that this is so, on a fair and open examination in light of the issues put in the OP above and others that may be linked to them, then your side needs to admit to a severe mischaracterisation and to boasting of a degree of warrant that it did not have. Just go back over thread after thread at your blogs and see if you have not falsely accused us and misrepresented us as being illogical and question begging on the basics of induction. And this false accusation was specifically cast in my teeth. Simple justice therefore demands that the record be laid out, the wrongful claims be acknowledged and retracted. By your side, which made false, accusatory and denigratory assertions on matters of inductive logic, with scarcely any correction. Indeed, it reached the point where this seems to have been the imagined conventional wisdom and consensus. Further to this, you need to think very hard about what you were doing to create such an aura of false invincibility and arrogantly smug presumption that you had cornered the market on rationality. In addition there are linked questions that go on across a wide range of linked issues, on each of which your side has made severe accusations and misrepresentations fully as loaded as the accusations of illogical circularity that I have headlined and publicly corrected. That is why there are eighteen questions that take us across that range and it is why trying to duck the full range of issues will only help to promote the all too common red herring and ad hominem soaked strawman tactics that we have seen year after year. As a concession to objectors who cannot address the full range, they may wish to take up individual questions, but the range still stands. Only when there is a clear understanding of why the two sides take different positions across the range will we be able to resolve the matter properly. So, no, your hope to divert down all too familiar ruts is refused. And, Joe is right, ID is not the antithesis of evolution, whether micro or body-plan level macro. That is why the No 2 ID scientist, Behe, accepts Universal Common Descent. So, the very phrasing of your rhetorically loaded counter-offer pivots on a strawman distortion. That is why there is need to address the questions, as there is a cloud of poisonous misunderstandings and outright smears that have to be cleared away. It is time to seriously, cogently answer the questions, or stand exposed as indulging in rhetorical smear jobs. Surely, you have more than enough manpower to do so. (And of course, the OP links to answers from our side that have been on the table long since, just ignored and caricatured in the haste to erect ad hominem soaked strawmen and burn them with snide rhetoric.) Enough is enough. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2012
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Joe: the difference between justice -- which properly involves the community -- and revenge is proportion of response on an objective and impartial test. That is why we need to hear ONLY an eye for an eye (where in fact compensation is in view). The civil peace of justice is not a war zone, but a zone of mutual respect, civility and rule of just law impartially enforced with a modicum of understanding and mercy. Which virtue is conspicuously absent as the civilisation spins out of control. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2012
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DK: Inference to BEST current explanation implies a comparative process that is an argument. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2012
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KF and others, you may appreciate this article that just came up at ENV:
Conservation of Information Made Simple - William A. Dembski August 28, 2012 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/conservation_of063671.html
bornagain77
August 28, 2012
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Daniel, Allegedly, if you have formed an inference, that would include hypothesis testing (or some reasonable fascimile thereof).Joe
August 28, 2012
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kairosfocus wrote:
1: Is argument by inference to best current explanation a form of the fallacy of question-begging (as was recently asserted by design objector “Toronto”)? If you think so, why?
I think it is not question-begging. But it is also not an argument. It is, in my opinion, a form of hypothesis generation. Once an inquirer has posed an hypothesis, the hard work of testing that hypothesis commences.Daniel King
August 28, 2012
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petrushka just refuses to get it- petrushka, your "challenge" is EMPTY because you are an EQUIVOCATOR who delights in misrepresenting ID. You really need to grow up before you qualify for a debate. Just sayin'...Joe
August 28, 2012
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The equivocation never stops- petrushka's empty challenge:
The topic I suggest is whether ID or evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life.
What "evolution" is petrushka referring to seeing that Intelligent Design is NOT anti-evolution? Continued misrepresentations, lies, equivocations and insipidity are what gets evos banned. They are also a case of incivility. Unbelievable, you guys just don't get it- sad but trueJoe
August 28, 2012
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