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Philosopher offers six signs of “scientism”

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Non-materialist neuroscientists must often deal with the claim that their work is “unscientific,” despite the fact that, for example, the placebo effect, for example, is one of the best attested effects in medicine and the fact that there Is mounting evidence for researchable psi effects. The problem arises because, as Susan Hack puts it, “scientism” enables assessors to avoid evaluating evidence in favor of evaluating whether the evidence “counts as science”. Here are her six signs: 1. Using the words “science,” “scientific,” “scientifically,” “scientist,” etc., honorifically, as generic terms of epistemic praise.

And, inevitably, the honorific use of “science” encourages uncritical credulity about whatever new scientific idea comes down the pike. But the fact is that all the explanatory hypotheses that scientists come up with are, at first, highly speculative, and most are eventually found to be untenable, and abandoned. To be sure, by now there is a vast body of well-warranted scientific theory, some of it so well-warranted that it would be astonishing if new evidence were to show it to be mistaken – though even this possibility should never absolutely be ruled out.

Always remember that Ptolemy’s model of the solar system was used successfully by astronomers for 1200 years, even though it had Earth in the wrong place.

2. Adopting the manners, the trappings, the technical terminology, etc., of the sciences, irrespective of their real usefulness. Here, Hack cites the “social sciences”, quite justifiably, but evolutionary psychology surely leads the pack. Can anyone serious believe, for example, that our understanding of public affairs is improved by the claim that there is such a thing as hardwired religion or evolved religion? No new light, just competing, contradictory speculation.

3. A preoccupation with demarcation, i.e., with drawing a sharp line between genuine science, the real thing, and “pseudo-scientific” imposters. The key, of course, is the preoccupation. Everyone wants real science, but a preoccupation with showing that a line of inquiry is not science, good or bad – apart from the evidence – flies in the face of “The fact is that the term “science” simply has no very clear boundaries: the reference of the term is fuzzy, indeterminate and, not least, frequently contested.”

4. A corresponding preoccupation with identifying the “scientific method,” presumed to explain how the sciences have been so successful. ” we have yet to see anything like agreement about what, exactly, this supposed method is.” Of course, one method would work for astronomy, and another for forensics. But both disciplines must reckon with evidence, to be called “science”.

5. Looking to the sciences for answers to questions beyond their scope. One thinks of Harvard cognitive scientist Steve Pinker’s recent claim that science can determine morality. Obviously, whatever comes out of such a project must be the morality of those who went into it.

6. Denying or denigrating the legitimacy or the worth of other kinds of inquiry besides the scientific, or the value of human activities other than inquiry, such as poetry or art. Or better yet, treating them as the equivalent of baboons howling for mates, or something. It discredits both arts and sciences.

Here’s Hack’s “Six Signs of Scientism” lecture.

Comments
BA77: It appears you ahven't bothered to look at the data contained in Table 3 of the study you cite as evidence of objective improvement. In Table 3 the data is reported on the objective assessment of the physical functioning tests (stair climbing). Note that the placebo group did no better after the placebo than at the beginning of the study. That is not a indication of objective improvement of mobility from initial conditions. Where in the study are your 'objective improvements' cited and presented?Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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BA77: Again I must request that you read the studies your are citing. Nowhere in the studies do the authors report increased mobility attributed to a placebo treatment. Thus, it is not a dodge to state the truth of the matter which easily seen if one reads the study. It is also no dodge to identify that there is no 'no treatment' group present for comparison with the placebo treatment arm of the study. How do you know that a 'no treatment' arm would perform poorly in comparison to the placebo arm? Gut feeling? Data? Or speculation to enable one to cling to a philosophical bias? here is something from the study you should take note of: Two self-reported measures of physical function subjective reporting by the patients are not objective measurements.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, you said no 'objective improvement' of mobility was ever reported. I directly cited two studies that reported increased mobility, and you try to dodge by saying 'well people with no treatment whatsoever could have improved as well as those who received treatment, ????? EXCUSE ME acipenser you are clearly grasping mightily for any justification whatsoever to maintain your preconceived bias, thus it is clear, to me at least, that the REAL answer to this question,,, Well acipenser what ARE YOU going to believe? The evidence or your philosophical bias? is,,, your philosophical bias!!!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77:Results At no point did either of the intervention groups report less pain or better function than the placebo group. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259 What am I going to believe acipencer? You or my own eyes? Which underlies the conclusion of the study that lavage and debridement are no better than placebo treatment. With a complete lack of a 'no treatment' arm that is all that can be said for the study. In this study the 'no treatment arm' is the placebo group. You, I, and the authors have no way of telling how the placebo treatment would fair in comparision to no treatment whatsoever. If you wish to speculate beyond the limitations of the data/study at least recognize the inherent limitations of the conclusions of the study. Also recognize the thin ice you venture out on if you wish to read more into the study than is present. BA77:The placebo worked. Six months after surgery, still unaware of whether they had real surgery or not, all ten reported much less pain. Yes, subjective self-reporting of pain assessment by the patient. That is not a objective measurement and has everything to do with perception and expectations and not related to improved status of a disease state. BA77: Well acipenser what ARE YOU going to believe? The evidence or your philosophical bias? Why the evidence of course. I have no bias concerning placebo effects but I do recognize that no objective improvements have ever been attributed to placebo effects. For example what ramifications are there to release of endogenous opoids? What types of stimulus causes these releases? What effects may be attributed to the release of endogenous opiods?Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipenser, you state: 'Read the study you are citing. The authors make no statement that icreased motion/mobility were found in the placebo group.' And the study I cited states: Results At no point did either of the intervention groups report less pain or better function than the placebo group. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259 What am I going to believe acipencer? You or my own eyes? further note: 'The placebo worked. Six months after surgery, still unaware of whether they had real surgery or not, all ten reported much less pain. All were happy with the outcome of the operation. One of the patients who had been assigned to the placebo group, a seventy-six year old from Beaumont, Texas, was interviewed several years after the experiment. He now mows his lawn and walks whenever he wants. “The surgery was two years ago,” he says, “and the knee has never bothered me since. It’s just like my other knee now. I give a whole lot of credit to Dr. Moseley.” further note: The endogenous opioids, endorphins, were discovered in 1974 and act as pain antagonists. Benedetti’s suggestion of a placebo-induced release of endorphins was supported by findings produced with MRI and PET scans.30 Placebo-induced endorphin release also affects heart rate and respiratory activity.31 As researcher Jon-Kar Zubieta described, “…this [finding] deals another serious blow to the idea that the placebo effect is a purely psychological, not physical, phenomenon”.32 http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/the-placebo-effect/ Well acipenser what ARE YOU going to believe? The evidence or your philosophical bias?bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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karo: I simply note that subjectivity of an assessment done across a wide enough study under the conditions described (especially backed up by improved mobility of a joint) is also credibly objectively real. Improved mobility of a joint has never been attributed to a placebo. If you have such a citation please provide it or at least acknowledge you know of none. Expensive wine tastes better than cheaper wine even if it is the same wine....perception and expectations drive the placebo effect and there is a multi-billion dollar industry which exploits this aspect of human behavior.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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Onlookers: Came back by for a moment. Tangent in full cry. I simply note that subjectivity of an assessment done across a wide enough study under the conditions described (especially backed up by improved mobility of a joint) is also credibly objectively real. Subjectivity does not mean non-objective, or non-real. If that were imagined so, then our experience of he world as conscious creatures would vanish, and with it all knowledge. All this reminds me of that old song about he bright college kid returned for holidays and spouting rhetoric about the lack of objective evidence for God. Then, he has a toothache. Invisible, intangible, but a very real qualia. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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BA77: Read the study you are citing. The authors make no statement that icreased motion/mobility were found in the placebo group. the only assessment for the placebo group is 'does it hurt more or less' which is a subjective assessment done by the patient. So no I did not falsly state anything at all but did point out what the study actually reported. Objective measurements may be made to assess if a placebo is effective but to date there are no data that demonstrates any objective changes in any endpoint where placebo might be involved. As I stated before if you have a study that documents objective improvments, i.e., pathology ect, from a placebo I would really be interested in reading them. I've also addressed the limitations of the McRea study as well (above). No objectively measured parameter in the study could be attributed to placebo. However, the objective endpoint that was documented showed no response from the placebo group while the surgery group showed improvement in the objective measure of improvement of movement.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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karo: posted last reply too soon. Macrea also cannot say that the placebo effect was 'strong' since the study lacked a 'no treatment' arm for comparison.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acispencer: A Controlled Trial of Arthroscopic Surgery for Osteoarthritis of the Knee Excerpt: Methods A total of 180 patients with osteoarthritis of the knee were randomly assigned to receive arthroscopic débridement, arthroscopic lavage, or placebo surgery. Patients in the placebo group received skin incisions and underwent a simulated débridement without insertion of the arthroscope,,, Results At no point did either of the intervention groups report less pain or better function than the placebo group. Furthermore, the 95 percent confidence intervals for the differences between the placebo group and the intervention groups exclude any clinically meaningful difference. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259 acipencer one of the main reasons I listed the arthritis study is because 'movement' is one of the main objective criteria used to measure improved health for arthritic patients, and you had falsely stated this: That is a false caricature of palcebo effects. What you describe could be objectively measured, i.e., increased motion, but objective improvment is never seen with placebo effects and all effects remain subjective assessments by the ‘patient’. but when I pointed that out the 'objective' aspect to you you merely restated this,,,
The assessments in the study and follow up study you cite are all subjective assessments, i.e., does it hurt. The most telling point of the studies is that surgery is contraindicated for osteoarthritis in the knee. No objective measurements were attributed to placebo effects.
Yet despite you restating the same false assertion of the placebo being merely subjective, the fact is that it also trespasses onto 'objectively' measurable physical responses!!! further note: MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Comparison of the actual transplant and sham surgery groups and the perceived treatment groups on QOL and medical outcomes. We also investigated change over time. RESULTS: There were 2 differences or changes over time in the transplant and sham surgery groups. Based on perceived treatment, or treatment patients thought they received, there were numerous differences and changes over time. In all cases, those who thought they received the transplant reported better scores. Blind ratings by medical staff showed similar results. CONCLUSIONS: The placebo effect was very strong in this study, demonstrating the value of placebo-controlled surgical trials. 28. McRae C, Cherin E, Yamazaki TG, Diem G, Vo AH, Russell D, Ellgring JH, Fahn S, Greene P, Dillon S, Winfield H, Bjugstad KB, Freed CR, “Effects of perceived treatment on quality of life and medical outcomes in a double-blind placebo surgery trial”, Arch Gen Psychiatry 2004 Apr; 61(4):412-20; Erratum in Arch Gen Psychiatry 2004 Jun; 61(6):627. https://uncommondescent.com/science/philosopher-offers-six-signs-of-scientism/#comment-371903 etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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karo: The Macrea study (Parkinson) also documented subjective assessments by patients and staff. The objective endpoints demonstrated a far different view. From the paper: "patients who had the actual transplant surgery showed improvement in movement while, on average, patients who had sham surgery did not" No objective improvment with placebo effects.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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karo: Pardon, but if you look above [82, 83, 93], you will see that I am actually alluding to a test on veterans where that is just what happened. No objective assessment. Does it hurt is what was assessed and that is a subjective reporting from the patient. karo: On aspirin, I was “lightheartedly” tossing off a remark on the issue that modern drugs testing normally requires knowledge of mechanisms. as I "lightheartedly" pointed out that your remark was steeped in error. The cost of bringing a new drug to market is driven by the data requirements to satisfy agencies like the FDA. Is there somewhere you think they should be able to cut corners? karo: I find it interesting that you chose to pick at peripheral and tangential points instead of engaging the main issues and arguments, which you can simply scroll up above to find. I've read through the thread and what is apparent, to me at least, is that there are a great deal of misconception about placebo effects. Your reference to increased motion of the knee was a classic example of this misunderstanding as well as referencing a study where only subjective endpoints were evaluated and trying to claim they are objective assessments. Placebo effects are nothing more than a change in expectation of the individual. Certainly, in some instances it is desirable, i.e., better ability to cope with the pain and suffering of . A classic example is the dramatic effect mommy's kiss can have on a boo boo......does the kiss make the actual pain go away or does the child hurt less because of the distraction.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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BA77: The assessments in the study and follow up study you cite are all subjective assessments, i.e., does it hurt. The most telling point of the studies is that surgery is contraindicated for osteoarthritis in the knee. No objective measurements were attributed to placebo effects. If you have a study that actually demonstrates objectively evaluated endpoints attributed to placebo effects I'd be more than interested in reading them. Youtubes don't count.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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PS: I do take your point on the FDA's specific testing protocols and requirements. Thanks for a heads up.kairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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Aci: Pardon, but if you look above [82, 83, 93], you will see that I am actually alluding to a test on veterans where that is just what happened. On aspirin, I was "lightheartedly" tossing off a remark on the issue that modern drugs testing normally requires knowledge of mechanisms. (At least as of last time I checked; IIRC, the context was one where the hurdle for new drugs was so high that only giant firms could afford the sort of testing now required, especially when compounded by the steps to get to that stage. I claimed no expertise on the matter.) Aspirin, is a legacy from the past, an upgrade to oil of wintergreen; a traditional remedy. What is central, though is the issue that we seem to be facing a scientism based on a priori evolutionary materialism, that makes what would otherwise not look very credible, the only game in town. I find it interesting that you chose to pick at peripheral and tangential points instead of engaging the main issues and arguments, which you can simply scroll up above to find. Why not go to 107 above, and explain to us how per evolutionary materialist mechanism, we have an adequate and coherent account of mind, consciousness, cognition, and knowledge (the amorality issue is important but it depends on the prior one of accounting for mind); starting from Crick's pack of neurons. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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Acipencer you falsely state: That is a false caricature of palcebo effects. What you describe could be objectively measured, i.e., increased motion, but objective improvment is never seen with placebo effects and all effects remain subjective assessments by the ‘patient’. Yet as was pointed out to markf @83 ‘The results were replicated: arthroscopic surgery was equal therapeutically to the placebo effect.27 The placebo had found its way into surgical rooms.,,, https://uncommondescent.com/science/philosopher-offers-six-signs-of-scientism/#comment-371889 Thus acipenser, though you built your entire post, references and all, on the presupposition that placebo effects are ONLY subjective, the fact is that they are now proven to be objectively measurable! If you want to contend that 'objective' fact please contend with the study I referenced @83 as well as the follow up studies.bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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[blockquote] kairosfocus: No need to go fetch an aspirin. (Which BTW, it seems we do not know how it works! Aspirin would not pass FDA tests today . . . ){/blockquote] this is completely false. there are many drugs approved by the FDA that we do not know how they work (aspirin is not one of them). What is required for approval by the FDA is demonstration of safety, efficacy, metabolic pathway, i.e. metabolites and route of excretion, non-teratogenic...but not mechanism of action. Any quality textbook on Pharmacology should clear up any confusion. My suggestions would be classic textbooks by Goodman and Gillman or Katzung.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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mf "#129 I should have made it clear that this was addressed to Vivid, StephenB and BA77. I also want to say I appreciate StephenB’s and Vivid’s honesty, clarity and politeness and BA77?s honesty and politeness (I still haven’t the foggiest idea what he is saying)." Back at you mf. I will respect your desire to not go down the morality free will road. I also want to agree with Stephen when he stated "I commend you for articulating your view. " My Best Vividvividbleau
February 6, 2011
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[blockquote]karosfocus: As in, my knee works better than it should, since I did not really have the surgery I thought I had?[/blockquote] That is a false caricature of palcebo effects. What you describe could be objectively measured, i.e., increased motion, but objective improvment is never seen with placebo effects and all effects remain subjective assessments by the 'patient'. Placebo effects represent a change in expectations and little more. Take for instance these examples (from a blog site but easily trackdownable via the links): [blockquote]The experiment, led by researchers at Cal-Tech and Stanford, was simple. [A free version of the study is here.] Twenty subjects tasted five wine samples which were distinguished solely by their retail price, with bottles ranging from $5 to $90. Although the subjects were told that all five wines were different, the scientists had actually only given them three different wines. This meant that the first two wines were used twice, but given two different price labels. For example, Wine 1 was labeled as a $35 dollar wine and a $5 wine. The subjects sipped the wines inside an fMRI machine. Not surprisingly, the subjects consistently reported that the expensive wine tasted better. They preferred the taste of the $90 bottle to the $10 bottle, and thought the $45 bottle was more delicious than than the $5 wine. What's interesting is that the brain scans reflected these subjective reports. In fact, when people drank more expensive wines a part of the prefrontal cortex called the medial orbitofrontal cortex (mOFC) got significantly more excited. The scientists argue that the activity of mOFC can be used as a neural correlate for pleasure, so that more expensive wines not only tasted better but actually provided us with more "subjective utility," as an economist might say. Of course, these wine preferences aren't really valid. In a follow-up experiment, the subjects again tasted all five wine samples, but without any price information. This time, they thought the $5 dollar wine tasted the best. The best way to think of this experiment is as the economic equivalent of the placebo effect. Consider a 2005 experiment by Tor Wager of Columbia. His experiment was brutally straightforward: he gave college students electrical shocks while they were stuck in an fMRI machine. Half of the people were then supplied with a fake pain-relieving cream. As expected, people given the pretend cream said the shocks were significantly less painful. The placebo effect eased their suffering. Wager then imaged the specific parts of the brain that controlled this psychological process. He discovered that the placebo effect depended entirely on the prefrontal cortex. When people were told that they'd just received a pain-relieving cream, their frontal lobes responded by inhibiting the activity of the emotional brain areas (like the insula) that normally respond to pain. However, when the same people were informed that the same cream was "ineffective" at blocking pain, their prefrontal cortex went silent. Because people expected to experience less pain, they ended up experiencing less pain. Just as our expectations about expensive wine influenced the taste of the wine itself - expensive wine is supposed to taste better - so do our expectations about pain affect our experience of pain. Baba Shiv, a co-author on the recent wine study, has previously shown how price can warp our consumer decisions. He supplied people with an "energy" drink that was supposed to make them feel more alert and energetic. Some participants paid full price for the drinks, while others were offered a discount. The participants were then asked to solve a series of word puzzles. To Shiv's surprise, the people who paid discounted prices consistently solved fewer puzzles than the people who paid full price for the drinks. The subjects were convinced that the stuff on sale was much less potent, even though all the drinks were identical. "We ran the study again and again, not sure if what we got had happened by chance or fluke," Shiv says. "But every time we ran it we got the same results." Why did the cheaper energy drink prove less effective? According to Shiv, consumers typically suffer from a version of the placebo effect. Since we expect cheaper goods to be less effective, they generally are less effective, even if they are identical to more expensive products. This is why brand-name aspirin works better than generic aspirin, or why Coke tastes better than cheaper colas, even if most consumers can't tell the difference in blind taste tests. "We have these general beliefs about the world -for example, that cheaper products are of lower quality - and they translate into specific expectations about specific products," said Shiv. "Then, once these expectations are activated, they start to really impact our behavior." [/blockquote] http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/01/expensive_wine_tastes_better.phpAcipenser
February 6, 2011
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#129 I should have made it clear that this was addressed to Vivid, StephenB and BA77. I also want to say I appreciate StephenB's and Vivid's honesty, clarity and politeness and BA77's honesty and politeness (I still haven't the foggiest idea what he is saying).markf
February 6, 2011
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This seems to have turned into a debate about morality and free will. I am sorry I am not playing that game. I have been down that road too many times. It is tedious and unrewarding. The proposition I started with was that the placebo effect provides no evidence for dualism. If you want to believe that materialism implies no free will and no morality then I am not going to attempt to change your mind. Nevertheless a brain (whether it have free will or not) is just as capable of demonstrating all the behaviour we associate with the placebo effect as a brain plus the extra mystery ingredient (think of the android). Ergo the placebo does not help us decide between dualism and materialism.markf
February 6, 2011
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DrBot “Your brain state is bad” How can molecules be good or bad?
Comprehension fail! Objective morality is defined by God, behaviours (and their underlying states of mind) can therefore be good or bad. IF, as good seems to have willed, our minds are the product of the functioning of our brains then 'brain states' can be good or bad. In this context individual cells aren't being 'good' or 'bad' it is their collective activity - your brain/mind in action - that can and is judged by God to be bad. Of course as the source of all objective morality God could also have defined moral constraints for individual cells, but that doesn't seem to be the case. And if you think that the mind being the result of a functioning brain rules out the preservation of yourself after bodily death then you're wrong, firstly mind is not soul, secondly, upon death all that we were is transmuted into an eternal afterlife. Dualism for the living is not required, but for some it is desired.DrBot
February 6, 2011
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bornagain 77, whose preternatural sensors always manage to find a relevant scientific study for just about any topic] submits these findings @94 on near death experiences. “The study of patients with NDE, however, clearly shows us that consciousness with memories, cognition, with emotion, self-identity, and perception out and above a life-less body is experienced during a period of a non-functioning brain (transient pancerebral anoxia). And focal functional loss by inhibition of local cortical regions happens by “stimulation” of those regions with electricity (photons) or with magnetic fields (photons), resulting sometimes in out-of-body states.” If one reads the study carefully, it is evident that these events are not being caused by some kind of dream state. On the contrary, we have scientific evidence that something other than the brain is in play. We need not specify whether the entity in question is an immaterial mind or an immortal soul of which an immaterial mind is a faculty. All we need to know is that the material brain is not calling all the shots and, therefore, that materialism is an implausible explanation for the phenomenon being observed.StephenB
February 6, 2011
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BA: What does "I" mean? How does a pack of neurons find it to have a sense, much less a sense of personal identity? Much less, an enduring, sense of identity with a name -- and even an Internet Handle? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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markf, one thing you have ignored, among many things you have ignored, is this experiment: "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://eugene-wigner.co.tv/ Here is the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries: Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center'. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” ,,, thus markf, to put it in language you can understand,, Why does the material state of the experiment even care that a different 'brain state' is looking at it???bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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thanks, kf, I'll take two brain states and call you in the morning :)bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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Now, all these loops within loops are giving me a headache . . . and my eyes want to cross over . . .kairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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So, BA: your little headache is not r5easl, it is just neurons firing away in networks. No need to go fetch an aspirin. (Which BTW, it seems we do not know how it works! Aspirin would not pass FDA tests today . . . ) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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As in, my knee works better than it should, since I did not really have the surgery I thought I had?kairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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ba re 116 Sorry brother my brain state made me do it :) Vividvividbleau
February 6, 2011
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