Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Philosopher offers six signs of “scientism”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Non-materialist neuroscientists must often deal with the claim that their work is “unscientific,” despite the fact that, for example, the placebo effect, for example, is one of the best attested effects in medicine and the fact that there Is mounting evidence for researchable psi effects. The problem arises because, as Susan Hack puts it, “scientism” enables assessors to avoid evaluating evidence in favor of evaluating whether the evidence “counts as science”. Here are her six signs: 1. Using the words “science,” “scientific,” “scientifically,” “scientist,” etc., honorifically, as generic terms of epistemic praise.

And, inevitably, the honorific use of “science” encourages uncritical credulity about whatever new scientific idea comes down the pike. But the fact is that all the explanatory hypotheses that scientists come up with are, at first, highly speculative, and most are eventually found to be untenable, and abandoned. To be sure, by now there is a vast body of well-warranted scientific theory, some of it so well-warranted that it would be astonishing if new evidence were to show it to be mistaken – though even this possibility should never absolutely be ruled out.

Always remember that Ptolemy’s model of the solar system was used successfully by astronomers for 1200 years, even though it had Earth in the wrong place.

2. Adopting the manners, the trappings, the technical terminology, etc., of the sciences, irrespective of their real usefulness. Here, Hack cites the “social sciences”, quite justifiably, but evolutionary psychology surely leads the pack. Can anyone serious believe, for example, that our understanding of public affairs is improved by the claim that there is such a thing as hardwired religion or evolved religion? No new light, just competing, contradictory speculation.

3. A preoccupation with demarcation, i.e., with drawing a sharp line between genuine science, the real thing, and “pseudo-scientific” imposters. The key, of course, is the preoccupation. Everyone wants real science, but a preoccupation with showing that a line of inquiry is not science, good or bad – apart from the evidence – flies in the face of “The fact is that the term “science” simply has no very clear boundaries: the reference of the term is fuzzy, indeterminate and, not least, frequently contested.”

4. A corresponding preoccupation with identifying the “scientific method,” presumed to explain how the sciences have been so successful. ” we have yet to see anything like agreement about what, exactly, this supposed method is.” Of course, one method would work for astronomy, and another for forensics. But both disciplines must reckon with evidence, to be called “science”.

5. Looking to the sciences for answers to questions beyond their scope. One thinks of Harvard cognitive scientist Steve Pinker’s recent claim that science can determine morality. Obviously, whatever comes out of such a project must be the morality of those who went into it.

6. Denying or denigrating the legitimacy or the worth of other kinds of inquiry besides the scientific, or the value of human activities other than inquiry, such as poetry or art. Or better yet, treating them as the equivalent of baboons howling for mates, or something. It discredits both arts and sciences.

Here’s Hack’s “Six Signs of Scientism” lecture.

Comments
Now, now, BA: How can a bundle of neurons in a network firing away have the qualia "headache," much less configure themselves into a loop firing away and generating the conscious, subjective awareness of "headache," much less generate the language based coded statement, " . . . your brain state gave my brain state a headache"? What do ion potentials, micro-currents and synapses have to do with perceptions, concepts and coded expressions? How do such then give rise to logical inferences of form, IF P is so, then that warrants that Q must be so, so I SHOULD accept Q as the logical implication of P? And, why, then do I accept Q, and on the strength of that, just the experience of being in the rituals of treatment, has healing effect? As in, in response to surgery I think I have had, and the results of surgery I expect? Only, I was in a double-blind test and never really had the surgery, the doctor just made three pricks with the scalpel, per the envelope he opened. So, why is it that years later, I feel good, as a result of surgery I thought I had, but never did?? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
Dr.Bot, you state; 'I’m a deist' Which explains the origination of the universe, but 'being a deist' does not let you off the hook for the 'sustaining' of the universe; BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (personally I feel the word "illusion" was a bit too strong from Dr. Henry to describe material reality and would myself have opted for his saying something a little more subtle like; "material reality is a "secondary reality" that is dependent on the primary reality of God's mind" to exist. Then again I'm not a professor of physics at a major university as Dr. Henry is.) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html ,, i.e. DrBot, what is the 'cause' of quantum wave collapse to each unique point of 'conscious' observation in the universe if the universe is indeed 'self-sustaining' since its creation as you, as a Deist, must maintain???bornagain77
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
01:01 PM
1
01
01
PM
PDT
DrBot "Your brain state is bad" How can molecules be good or bad? DrBot "Do you believe that God was incapable of creating intelligent, moral and free willed creatures that fulfilled these criteria by operating within the laws of the universe that God created?" No. Vividvividbleau
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
12:59 PM
12
12
59
PM
PDT
markf & vivid your brain state gave my brain state a headache :)bornagain77
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
12:39 PM
12
12
39
PM
PDT
---markf: "I believe that the mind is a configuration of the brain. So the physician’s brain formulates a plan, which it causes his body to carry out. This in turn affects the brain of the patient creating a belief (a state of the brain) which causes the patient to feel better and possibly do things which make the patients body healthier. Does that explain my position?" Yes, very good. Seriously, I mean that. I commend you for articulating your view. For now, I will allow others to demonstrate why this is unworkable except, for starters, to ask you a question: Is the physician free to make a choice in this matter, that is, can he decide either to formulate this plan and share it with the patient or to negate that option and go with another medical strategy?StephenB
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PDT
Vivid, Your brain state is bad. Unless of course you think my God is wrong ... --- I'm a deist but I have never seen the need to argue that Mind requires anything more than the bodies god deemed to give us. Do you believe that God was incapable of creating intelligent, moral and free willed creatures that fulfilled these criteria by operating within the laws of the universe that God created?DrBot
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
12:19 PM
12
12
19
PM
PDT
---markf: "I am a compatabilist. I believe free will is compatible with determinism (to be strictly accurate – determinism plus random results). So it is not a problem for me." Mark, there is a big, big problem with compatibilism. Clearly, determiminsm and free will are not compatible at all, unless the compatibilist redefines free will to mean something less that it is. In fact, the compatibilist manipulates the language to confuse the issue and muddy the debate waters. Free will, properly understood, provides that the individual who possesses it can influence his own destiny and take it in one of many directions by exercising his free-will choices. He can influence future outcomes and make them different than they would have been had he not made those choices. Put another way, he is free not to make those same choices and may well have influenced future outcomes in a different way. Neither compatibilism nor determinism allow for these multiple possible outcomes. Determinism = no control or influence over the outcome of future events Free will = control or influence over the outcome of future events. As is evident, those two world views cannot be reconciled. I feel a little guilty piling on since you are trying to play chess with so many people, but, as they say in the south, that dog [compatibilism] will not hunt.StephenB
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
12:14 PM
12
12
14
PM
PDT
mf Re 111 That means that I am a theist and you a materialist because of the configuration of our brain states. I am pro ID and you anti ID becuae of the configuration of our brain states. What causes the difference in our brain states are previous brain states. What causes brain states "are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Nerve cells and molecules are neither good or bad, better or worse. My brain state ( belief) is nor better or worse than your brain state ( belief). My percepion of the world, my peception of what is good, what is evil, what I percieve as reality is neither good, bad, better or worse than those whose perception of these things are the exact opposite of mine. I could ask why you bother to make a case for the various brain states you exhibit when your brain state is neither good or bad, better or worse than the brain states that are different than yours? I could ask but then I know the answer already your brain state makes you do it. Vividvividbleau
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
#110 Vivid "Or your nothing but a pack of brain states. What am I missing Mark?" Nothing - you got it.markf
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
11:02 AM
11
11
02
AM
PDT
mf "I believe that the mind is a configuration of the brain." What your saying here is all there is are changes in brain states. mf "So the physician’s brain formulates a plan," Not really to be precise the physician has a change in brain states. mf "which it causes his body to carry out." The change in brain states causes certain actions of the body. mf "This in turn affects the brain of the patient creating a belief (a state of the brain)" Cerain actions of the preceding change in brain states cause another change in brain states. mf"which causes the patient to feel better and possibly do things which make the patients body healthier." A change in brain state causes a change in brain states that causes a change in brain states. mf "Does that explain my position?" I guess if you call a change in brain states causes a change in brains states causes a change in brain states an explanation To quote Crick from KF's post in 88 . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” Or your nothing but a pack of brain states. What am I missing Mark? Vividvividbleau
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
F/N 2: Nor is this analysis exactly news. Here is Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 360 BC, 2300+ years ago: ____________________ First, an introduction in which Plato carefully distances himself from classical paganism: >>Ath. At Athens there are tales preserved in writing which the virtue of your state, as I am informed, refuses to admit. They speak of the Gods in prose as well as verse, and the oldest of them tell of the origin of the heavens and of the world, and not far from the beginning of their story they proceed to narrate the birth of the Gods, and how after they were born they behaved to one another. Whether these stories have in other ways a good or a bad influence, I should not like to be severe upon them, because they are ancient; but, looking at them with reference to the duties of children to their parents, I cannot praise them, or think that they are useful, or at all true. [[Notice Plato's own carefully stated skepticisms and moral concerns regarding classical paganism.] Of the words of the ancients I have nothing more to say; and I should wish to say of them only what is pleasing to the Gods. But as to our younger generation and their wisdom, I cannot let them off when they do mischief. For do but mark the effect of their words: when you and I argue for the existence of the Gods, and produce the sun, moon, stars, and earth, claiming for them a divine being, if we would listen to the aforesaid philosophers we should say that they are earth and stones only, which can have no care at all of human affairs, and that all religion is a cooking up of words and a make-believe . . . >> Next, he speaks more, in the voice of the Athenian Stranger, and exposes the core failures of evolutionary materialism. And yes, this philosophy is ancient, never mind its latest guise, a lab coat: >> [[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . [[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . . >> ____________________ We were warned, by one of the leading lights of our civilisation, 2,300+ years ago. Why is it that every high school or at least College student does not know this warning, and the companion parable of the cave -- especially the false enlightenment of the manipulative shadow shows (a show is a deliberate thing not an accident of mis-perception! [nb cf video at the linked]) confused for reality? Should we not take time, and think again? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT
markf, your 'belief' that characteristics of mind can be reduced to abilities of brain is a false belief i.e. your 'brain state', to use your words, is a lie! The Mind and Materialist Superstition - Six "conditions of mind" that are irreconcilable with materialism - Michael Egnor - neurosurgeon: Excerpt: 1. Intentionality, 2. Qualia, 3. Persistence of Self-Identity, 4. Restricted Access, 5. Incorrigibility, 6. Free Will http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html further notes: Mind-Brain Interaction and Science Fiction (Quantum connection) - Jeffrey Schwartz & Michael Egnor - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2008-12-01T17_28_39-08_00 In The Wonder Of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, Eccles and Robinson discussed the research of three groups of scientists (Robert Porter and Cobie Brinkman, Nils Lassen and Per Roland, and Hans Kornhuber and Luder Deeke), all of whom produced startling and undeniable evidence that a "mental intention" preceded an actual neuronal firing - thereby establishing that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but is a separate entity altogether. http://books.google.com/books?id=J9pON9yB8HkC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28 “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Eccles "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834bornagain77
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
09:55 AM
9
09
55
AM
PDT
F/N: Comment 89, point 19: _______________ >> 19 –> But, as the onward linked discussions at 59 above show, that lands one in all sorts of self-referential reductions to absurdity. Excerpting: a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick’s claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as “thoughts,” “reasoning” and “conclusions” can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And — as we saw above — would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent “delusion” is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it “must” — by the principles of evolution — somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, “must” also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this “meme” in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. i: The famous evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark:
“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]
j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the “thoughts” we have, (iii) the beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt and (v) the “conclusions” we reach — without residue — must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or logical validity. (The conclusions of such “arguments” may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or “warranted” them.) . . . . o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists’ theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists — just like the rest of us — in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.) >> _______________ Right down to the closing off remark on the likely response. Let us hope that MF will work through the implications of his "compatibilism" on chance plus necessity/determinism, and will think again. If he does not, we should have every right to dismiss his views as:
. . . on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, “must” also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this “meme” in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence.
Sad, but maybe after such a reductio ad absurdum, there will be willingness to think again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
Onlookers, Pardon, but I could not but help notice MF @ 103:
I am a compatabilist. I believe free will is compatible with determinism (to be strictly accurate – determinism plus random results). So it is not a problem for me.
This is of course precisely the problem, not the solution [as determinism plus chance utterly undermines the credibility of mind as it reduces thought to forces that are irrelevant to truth, logic or responsibility in thought]; as has been pointed out all along, and as I excerpted on this morning at 89, in context. But of course, MF studiously ignores such and has stated above that he is unwilling to look at this issue, as he has done so previously. (In fact, as far as I can recall, from several threads over years now, regrettably, he has consistently ducked or obfuscated rather than resolved, the issue.) I will leave this post short, and will excerpt again what appears at 89, to call attention to the fatal, self referential incoherence flaw in such "compatibilism." GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
09:36 AM
9
09
36
AM
PDT
#104 markf, you keep trying to slip characteristics of mind into abilities of the brain. i.e. you are trying to pull yourself out of a swamp by pulling on your own hair! BA77 - I believe they are the same thing. So this is not surprising!markf
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
09:29 AM
9
09
29
AM
PDT
markf, you keep trying to slip characteristics of mind into abilities of the brain. i.e. you are trying to pull yourself out of a swamp by pulling on your own hair!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
09:24 AM
9
09
24
AM
PDT
Allanius
Having said that, the placebo effect does seem to pose a problem for Mark in the area of free will. Patients can be made to change their minds about their physical well-being through a little sleight of hand by physicians. I wonder, is Mark saying that the information imparted by the physician causes a physical change in the brain? Even if that is the case, BA77 et al are correct—the mind is causing the change. Mind in this case is antecedent to matter, not the other way around, as the materialist paradigm suggests. Or is he suggesting something else? And if so, what?
I believe that the mind is a configuration of the brain.  So the physician’s brain formulates a plan, which it causes his body to carry out.  This in turn affects the brain of the patient creating a belief (a state of the brain) which causes the patient to feel better and possibly do things which make the patients body healthier.  Does that explain my position?
The patient, it seems, has free will—he is free in some sense to change his mind about his condition, based on information he receives. Mark would need to demonstrate how this freedom is consistent with strict materialism, which is deterministic.
I am a compatabilist.  I believe free will is compatible with determinism (to be strictly accurate – determinism plus random results).  So it is not a problem for me.  markf
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
08:57 AM
8
08
57
AM
PDT
#99 StephenB - no problem pressing this. "Do you, as a materialist, believe in accordance with your philosophy that the Doctor’s positive suggestion [and the patient's positive conviction, which is the product of the doctor's suggestion] have size, shape, and mass?" I believe that suggestion and the patient's conviction are configurations of their respective brains. They have size, shape and mass in the same sense that software in RAM has size, shape and mass. It occupies some physical space which under other circumstances would be occupied in some other role (including not doing much at all).markf
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
mark, Oops, sorry, I notice that you did respond @86. I must go. I hope to respond later today.StephenB
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
08:42 AM
8
08
42
AM
PDT
Mark, forget my comment at 98. I misread your post. Sorry. Please focus on @99StephenB
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
mark, please forgive me for pressing this, but I also need to know your answer to my question at a 85. Do you, as a materialist, believe in accordance with your philosophy that the Doctor's positive suggestion [and the patient's positive conviction, which is the product of the doctor's suggestion] have size, shape, and mass?StephenB
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
08:03 AM
8
08
03
AM
PDT
--mark: @84 "My whole point is that mind and brain are the same thing so it is nonsense to talk of one influencing the other." I refute that point by showing that the mind and brain have to be different and do, indeed, influence one another. You respond with this: ---mark @86 "The two way mind/body interaction seems rather simple. The brain effects the body, the body effects the brain. In addition the brain at one time effects the brain at a later time. Where is the problem?" Please reconcile the first statement [the mind and body cannot influence one another] with your second statement [the mind and body can influence one another]StephenB
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
markf, to try to be a little more clear, you have yet to even begin to try to explain, in purely materialistic '3-D' processes, a phenomena which clearly cries out for a higher dimensional 'mind' as a explanation. Yet I showed, in the previous post, the fact that ALL life has a 'four dimensional power scaling'. This four dimensional power scaling is simply inexplicable to your materialistic framework. i.e. why should all life scale to a 'higher dimension' unless there is a higher dimensional component within life, constraining the 'material' of life to that higher dimension, that materialists are missing? Though you, as a materialist, simply have no recourse to explain why this 4-D scaling is so, ID holds that this higher dimensional scaling is cause by 'transcendent information'; Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? A.C. McINTOSH – May 2010 Excerpt: It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. http://journals.witpress.com/journals.asp?iid=47 And yet, though energy and matter can be shown to be constrained by 'transcendent' information as ID postulates,,, Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint Excerpt: “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ ,,, materialism, until very, very, recently has denied that transcendent information even existed (Aspect), much less did materialists concede that 'transcendent' information was the primary, and dominate, influence in life that was constraining life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium:,,, But to bring this all around to the placebo effect. Here we fairly clearly have a cause that is 'information theoretic(4-D)' in its origination, i.e. the patient is told the 'information' that he will get better if such and such course of action is taken. The patient 'believes' the information is 'true' and, as a result, gets better when the course of action is taken! And yet the course of action is known not to be the cure for the illness or disease.,,, ID has a very plausible mechanism for explaining the placebo effect in that ID holds that 'information' is more foundational to life than matter or energy are, thus ID can readily appreciate what is happening with the placebo effect, though not fully explaining the exact details, while materialism has no hope whatsoever of ever explaining the placebo effect!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
Now you guys are doing the impossible—you’re making me sympathetic to Mark. You need to come up with a viable blinded study from a good journal showing your “strong” placebo effect on physical parameters. So far, all you’ve shown us the well-known effect on perception. (A patient with arthritis who reports improvement in pain and mobility is not the same thing as actual reduction in inflammation and inflammatory processes). Also I wonder where you are going with this mind vs body argument. One thing ID should not waste its time doing, in my humble opinion, is replaying the sorry history of philosophy, which equated intellect with the good. I’ve seen some posts on UD in recent days that almost seem to take us back to Berkeley. That doesn’t strike me as a very good way to move forward. Having said that, the placebo effect does seem to pose a problem for Mark in the area of free will. Patients can be made to change their minds about their physical well-being through a little sleight of hand by physicians. I wonder, is Mark saying that the information imparted by the physician causes a physical change in the brain? Even if that is the case, BA77 et al are correct—the mind is causing the change. Mind in this case is antecedent to matter, not the other way around, as the materialist paradigm suggests. Or is he suggesting something else? And if so, what? The patient, it seems, has free will—he is free in some sense to change his mind about his condition, based on information he receives. Mark would need to demonstrate how this freedom is consistent with strict materialism, which is deterministic.allanius
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
06:48 AM
6
06
48
AM
PDT
#94 I’m sure StephenB can explain this much clearer than I can I hope so because I am afraid I haven't the foggiest idea what you are saying. Sorry.markf
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
05:44 AM
5
05
44
AM
PDT
markf, sorry here is the Link to the paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15066900 Moreover markf, for you the 'scientific' problem for you is not merely that you are postulating a material cause for the placebo effect, The problem for you, as StephenB keeps pointing out, is that you have yet to elucidate any plausible mechanism for your postulated material cause. Indeed since it has been impossible to specifically locate where 'information/memories' in the brain reside,,, A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation. After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories (information) inside the brain.,, http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm ,,, then markf, since no one has any clue where, or even if, information is stored in the brain, how in the world do you propose to elucidate a materialistic mechanism for your postulated materialistic cause??? markf you can't even get to first base as to scientifically substantiating your claim in the least coherent way!!!! Whereas at least the dualist, since he holds there is a 'higher dimensional' component to man, (i.e. the mind/soul) can point to many lines of evidence. particularly this one line of evidence: The Four Dimensions Of Living Systems The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, in 'What Darwin Got Wrong' offer an interesting example of the ‘fourth dimension’ of living systems: 'The body masses of living organisms vary between 10^-13 grams (bacteria) to 10^8 grams (whales)..., that is, by 21 orders of magnitude. It’s interesting to see how other physico-chemical and biological properties and processes, and their ratios, scale with mass. How, for instance, surfaces and internal rates of transport, rates of cellular metabolism, whole organism metabolic rate, heartbeat, blood circulation, time and overall lifespan scale with mass. These are, of course, all three-dimensional systems, so it seems astounding that all the scaling factors, encompassing microorganisms, plants and animals, are multiples of a quarter, not a third.' “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological a...s the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/ Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for 'random' Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this 'four dimensional scaling' of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional 'expectation' for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an 'emergent' property of the 3-D material realm. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y markf, I'm sure StephenB can explain this much clearer than I can, but from my perspective markf, YOU AIN"T EVEN STARTING IN THE RIGHT DIMENSION AS TO EXPLAINING THE PLACEBO EFFECT!!!!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
04:16 AM
4
04
16
AM
PDT
markf, here is the McRae paper: Effects of perceived treatment on quality of life and medical outcomes in a double-blind placebo surgery trial. - McRae C CONTEXT: This study was part of a large double-blind sham surgery-controlled trial designed to determine the effectiveness of transplantation of human embryonic dopamine neurons into the brains of persons with advanced Parkinson's disease. This portion of the study investigated the quality of life (QOL) of participants during the 1 year of double-blind follow-up. OBJECTIVES: To determine whether QOL improved more in the transplant group than in the sham surgery group and to investigate outcomes at 1 year based on perceived treatment (the type of surgery patients thought they received). DESIGN: Participants were randomly assigned to receive either the transplant or sham surgery. Reported results are from the 1-year double-blind period. SETTING: Participants were recruited from across the United States and Canada. Assessment and surgery were conducted at 2 separate university medical centers. PARTICIPANTS: A volunteer sample of 40 persons with idiopathic Parkinson's disease participated in the transplant ("parent") study, and 30 agreed to participate in the related QOL study: 12 received the transplant and 18 received sham surgery. INTERVENTIONS: Interventions in the parent study were transplantation and sham brain surgery. Assessments of QOL were made at baseline and 4, 8, and 12 months after surgery. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Comparison of the actual transplant and sham surgery groups and the perceived treatment groups on QOL and medical outcomes. We also investigated change over time. RESULTS: There were 2 differences or changes over time in the transplant and sham surgery groups. Based on perceived treatment, or treatment patients thought they received, there were numerous differences and changes over time. In all cases, those who thought they received the transplant reported better scores. Blind ratings by medical staff showed similar results. CONCLUSIONS: The placebo effect was very strong in this study, demonstrating the value of placebo-controlled surgical trials.bornagain77
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
03:48 AM
3
03
48
AM
PDT
F/N 3: Leibniz also has some ideas we should reckon with, in his The Monadology: __________________ >> 1. The monad, of which we will speak here, is nothing else than a simple substance, which goes to make up compounds; by simple, we mean without parts. 2. There must be simple substances because there are compound substances; for the compound is nothing else than a collection or aggregatum of simple substances. 3. Now, where there are no constituent parts there is possible neither extension, nor form, nor divisibility. These monads are the true atoms [i.e. "indivisibles," the original meaning of a-tomos] of nature, and, in a word, the elements of things . . . . 6. We may say then, that the existence of monads can begin or end only all at once, that is to say, the monad can begin only through creation and end only through annihilation. Compounds, however, begin or end by parts . . . . 14. The passing condition which involves and represents a multiplicity in the unity, or in the simple substance, is nothing else than what is called perception. This should be carefully distinguished from apperception or consciousness . . . . 16. We, ourselves, experience a multiplicity in a simple substance, when we find that the most trifling thought of which we are conscious involves a variety in the object. Therefore all those who acknowledge that the soul is a simple substance ought to grant this multiplicity in the monad . . . . 17. It must be confessed, however, that perception, and that which depends upon it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is to say, by figures and motions. Supposing that there were a machine whose structure produced thought, sensation, and perception, we could conceive of it as increased in size with the same proportions until one was able to enter into its interior, as he would into a mill. Now, on going into it he would find only pieces working upon one another, but never would he find anything to explain perception. It is accordingly in the simple substance, and not in the compound nor in a machine that the perception is to be sought. Furthermore, there is nothing besides perceptions and their changes to be found in the simple substance. And it is in these alone that all the internal activities of the simple substance can consist.>> _________________ We may bring this up to date by making reference to more modern views of elements and atoms, through an example from chemistry. For instance, once we understand that ions may form and can pack themselves into a crystal, we can see how salts with their distinct physical and chemical properties emerge from atoms like Na and Cl, etc. per natural regularities (and, of course, how the compounds so formed may be destroyed by breaking apart their constituents!). However, the real issue evolutionary materialists face is how to get to mental properties that accurately and intelligibly address and bridge the external world and the inner world of ideas. This, relative to a worldview that accepts only physical components and must therefore arrive at other things by composition of elementary material components and their interactions per the natural regularities and chance processes of our observed cosmos. Now, obviously, if the view is true, it will be possible; but if it is false, then it may overlook other possible elementary constituents of reality and their inner properties. Which is precisely what Liebnitz was getting at. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
03:35 AM
3
03
35
AM
PDT
F/N 2: John Gregg has some choice words: __________________ >>Not only do I not have a knock-down theory of consciousness, I don't even have a clear definition of it. Different people mean different things by the term. In any kind of philosophical inquiry, you can always cheat by defining your problem away . . . As we inquire into some aspect of the world or ourselves, on one hand we must respect the sense in which people commonly use the words they use to talk about these aspects. On the other hand, we have some latitude to define the terms we use in such a way that they get to the heart of what is mysterious or interesting about whatever it is we are asking about. I subscribe to a characterization of consciousness that I believe gets to the meat of the matter. In my opinion, the meat of the matter is the Hard Problem . . . . The hard problem refers to the fact that you will never be able to tell me a story about information processing, or about biochemistry, or about anything based on physics as currently construed, which will come close to explaining why green looks green to me, or why middle C sounds like middle C. These basic ineffable sensations are called qualia (singular quale) in the literature of philosophy of mind. Subjective consciousness itself is sometimes characterized at the most basic what-it-is-like to be you or to have some sensation or another. We are taught that the entire universe and everything in it is made up of atoms and molecules and photons and things like that, all interacting according to the laws of physics. The claim of the Hard Problem as I understand it is that a) the redness of red as it appears to me is an absolute, objective1 fact of the universe, and b) that no account of atoms and molecules interacting, no matter the complexity of their interactions, will predict or explain the redness of red as it appears to me. So in the redness of red we are faced with an absolute, true fact of the universe, but one that no theory of physics, or information, or computation will ever be able to explain. That consciousness in this sense is real, and that it is utterly unexplainable in any terms familiar to science, is at its heart an intuition, and one not everyone shares . . . . The point here is that if you think of the brain as a big information processor, even being as generous as your wildest dreams will let you in terms of its sheer processing capacity, future physics, etc. you still leave something out. The information processor does not see red. It counts pixel values on its visual grid, it accesses memory locations, it does data smoothing and runs comparisons, but it does not have subjective experience. Perhaps when thought of in a certain way, from the point of view of a certain level of abstraction (projected onto the system by the observer), the information processor may be seen as seeing red, but there is no reason to believe - none in the world - that it really is seeing red, objectively, the way I (and presumably you) do . . . . The arguments about the inability of information processing or physical theories to explain subjective consciousness apply to the human brain itself. Just as the silicon, flipping bits, will never see red, we have no principled reason to derive the fact of our seeing red from the bit flipping in our own neurons. This point is illustrated by another thought experiment, that of the notion of a zombie. A zombie, in this context, is basically a person who has no phenomenal consciousness, that is, who experiences no qualia, but whose brain and cognitive machinery otherwise works just fine. A zombie has the same neural connections that you do, acts and talks like a normal person, but is "blank inside". A zombie brain essentially is a human brain, but considered only as an information processor. Note that a zombie would claim to see red, and seem to fall in love, and would in fact do all the things with its brain that we do with ours, producing all the same reactions, except that it would not be like anything to be the zombie. The zombie thought experiment is extremely controversial. I happen to find it compelling, in that I find zombies logically conceivable. I think that, given our current understanding of brains, it makes sense to speak of a brain that worked exactly as mine does now, producing the same output responses to the same input stimuli, and employing the same neural mechanisms, but which skipped the phenomenal conscious part. The zombie thought experiment is intended to stimulate the same intuition that the Mary experiment does: we do not have, within current science, any principled, theoretical way (other than brute correlation) to get from a complete description of how the parts of the brain function to the fact of subjective consciousness and the existence of qualia. A failure of prediction of this sort is a sign that your science is incomplete at best, and quite possibly seriously flawed. With regard to the Hard Problem, this lack of a principled way of deriving facts about consciousness from facts about brain processing has been called the explanatory gap . . . . There are some people however, who think that the whole notion of zombies is incoherent. If something talks, thinks (if by "thinking" we mean only the sort of processing that could be modelled on a computer, the pure information processing manifested in us by our neural firings), and acts like a conscious person, then that entity is conscious, and to speculate about the conceivability of something that talks, thinks (in the limited way mentioned above) and acts like a person but is not conscious is like speculating on the conceivability of married bachelors. There is nothing extra about consciousness besides the functional mechanisms of information processing, and any claims to the contrary are just spooky mumbo-jumbo, the products of sloppy thinking. Nevertheless, I find the thought experiments convincing. While it is often hard to draw a distinct line between qualia and cognitive, functional information processing (a fact I believe is underexplored), there is something going on when I see red that is in principle unexplainable by any theory of mentation that allows for minds being implemented by computers. The redness of red as I experience it is real, and can not be inferred from information processing alone. Thus it stands as an extra fact about the universe that demands explanation. To define consciousness as the functional information processing is to define away the real mystery of consciousness, to sweep it under the carpet . . . . Another possible response to the problem of consciousness might be, "who cares?" If my zombie twin or a suitably programmed computer could write poetry that stirred the soul, or compose operas, or carry on lively cocktail party chatter as well as anyone else could; if, in fact, there were no externally observable differences between my zombie twin and me, why not just use Occam's razor and forget the whole consciousness business? For all practical purposes, the universe runs quite well without any mention of it. This, however, is an intellectual abdication - the stick your head in the sand approach. Science does not progress by sweeping things under the rug which do not fit conveniently into the established order. In fact, in any scientific era, the science of the day seems complete and perfect, except for one or two minor anomalies. It is these little anomalies that end up bringing down the entire edifice. Further, every time there is a true scientific revolution, not only are the existing theories overturned in favor of new ones, but inevitably the old methods and criteria for what constitutes a good theory are revised as well, often radically. People who resist the Hard Problem because it has no meaning within the bounds of third person, objective scientific exploration are making a dogma of their methodology. They are generals fighting the last war . . . . My seeing of red is not a philosophy; it is not a way of thinking about or interpreting some theory or idea; it is not an abstraction; it is not an inference I have drawn or some metaphysical gloss I have put over reality. It is a brute fact about the universe, a fact of Nature. It is really, really there. It is not a theory - it is explanandum, not explanation. As such, it is incumbent upon our natural science to explain it. If my seeing of red is not amenable to the currently accepted methods of natural science, then so much the worse for those currently accepted methods. Those who deny the existence of qualitative consciousness remind me of the church officials who refused to look through Galileo's telescope because they did not want their neat and tidy theological world upset by what they might see. So where do we go from here? Loopy as it sounds, consciousness, or something that scales up to consciousness in certain kinds of systems, must be built in at the ground floor, as part of the fundamental furniture of the universe. Someday, after we have pinned it down a bit, it will stand right up there with mass, charge, and spin. This view is traditionally called panpsychism, but some people prefer pan-protopsychism to emphasize that it is not consciousness as we know it that stands as a fundamental building block of the universe, but some tiny crumb or spark that, when scaled up, aggregates into full-blown human consciousness under certain conditions or in certain types of systems. Also, "panpsychism", to some people has medieval, vitalist connotations; most contemporary panpsychists want to dissociate themselves from the belief that "rocks think". No one knows (yet) the principles according to which proto-consciousness aggregates into full-blown human consciousness, or what is so special about brains that they support this aggregation. In the range of potential answers to these questions there is room for many different versions of panpsychism, some more conservative (for lack of a better term) than others. It may well be that consciousness scales up only under very particular circumstances, not normally found in nature, but which natural selection has stumbled upon and exploited as it "engineered" brains. _________________ 1 It is not really a contradiction to say that my subjective experience is an objective fact of the universe. >> __________________ of course, I don't necessarily buy panspsychism. But the point is that he ontological ground of mindedness is at least as fundamental to the nature of reality as is that of matter. And in a cosmos where between dark matter and dark energy we are only addressing 4% of the evident cosmos, we should be open minded. Remember, dark matter is interacting gravitationally but not electromagnetically, at least when we look at major cluster collisions. We must be open to think afresh. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
03:31 AM
3
03
31
AM
PDT
F/N: There is an old saying about how the Greeks said that whenever they set out in a particular path of thought, they meet Plato and Aristotle on the way back. In that spirit, it may be worth our while to examine Plato's remarks in his The Laws, Bk X, on the self-moved ensouled being: ________________ >> Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? >> _________________ So, the question becomes: are we willing to accept that experiential fact no 1, that we are self-moved intelligent and volitional beings, should be a start-point for our thinking? (We must be open to, and may even may later find a way to explain it on other things, but given the evident roots of the cosmos, that points to mind before matter too.)kairosfocus
February 6, 2011
February
02
Feb
6
06
2011
01:57 AM
1
01
57
AM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6 7 8

Leave a Reply