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Philosopher offers six signs of “scientism”

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Non-materialist neuroscientists must often deal with the claim that their work is “unscientific,” despite the fact that, for example, the placebo effect, for example, is one of the best attested effects in medicine and the fact that there Is mounting evidence for researchable psi effects. The problem arises because, as Susan Hack puts it, “scientism” enables assessors to avoid evaluating evidence in favor of evaluating whether the evidence “counts as science”. Here are her six signs: 1. Using the words “science,” “scientific,” “scientifically,” “scientist,” etc., honorifically, as generic terms of epistemic praise.

And, inevitably, the honorific use of “science” encourages uncritical credulity about whatever new scientific idea comes down the pike. But the fact is that all the explanatory hypotheses that scientists come up with are, at first, highly speculative, and most are eventually found to be untenable, and abandoned. To be sure, by now there is a vast body of well-warranted scientific theory, some of it so well-warranted that it would be astonishing if new evidence were to show it to be mistaken – though even this possibility should never absolutely be ruled out.

Always remember that Ptolemy’s model of the solar system was used successfully by astronomers for 1200 years, even though it had Earth in the wrong place.

2. Adopting the manners, the trappings, the technical terminology, etc., of the sciences, irrespective of their real usefulness. Here, Hack cites the “social sciences”, quite justifiably, but evolutionary psychology surely leads the pack. Can anyone serious believe, for example, that our understanding of public affairs is improved by the claim that there is such a thing as hardwired religion or evolved religion? No new light, just competing, contradictory speculation.

3. A preoccupation with demarcation, i.e., with drawing a sharp line between genuine science, the real thing, and “pseudo-scientific” imposters. The key, of course, is the preoccupation. Everyone wants real science, but a preoccupation with showing that a line of inquiry is not science, good or bad – apart from the evidence – flies in the face of “The fact is that the term “science” simply has no very clear boundaries: the reference of the term is fuzzy, indeterminate and, not least, frequently contested.”

4. A corresponding preoccupation with identifying the “scientific method,” presumed to explain how the sciences have been so successful. ” we have yet to see anything like agreement about what, exactly, this supposed method is.” Of course, one method would work for astronomy, and another for forensics. But both disciplines must reckon with evidence, to be called “science”.

5. Looking to the sciences for answers to questions beyond their scope. One thinks of Harvard cognitive scientist Steve Pinker’s recent claim that science can determine morality. Obviously, whatever comes out of such a project must be the morality of those who went into it.

6. Denying or denigrating the legitimacy or the worth of other kinds of inquiry besides the scientific, or the value of human activities other than inquiry, such as poetry or art. Or better yet, treating them as the equivalent of baboons howling for mates, or something. It discredits both arts and sciences.

Here’s Hack’s “Six Signs of Scientism” lecture.

Comments
19 --> But, as the onward linked discussions at 59 above show, that lands one in all sorts of self-referential reductions to absurdity. Excerpting:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. i: The famous evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt and (v) the "conclusions" we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or logical validity. (The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them.) . . . . o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)
20 --> Coming back to the Smith model, we can now freely examine the possibility of mind interacting with brain and CNS as supervisory, imaginative, creative, volitional controller, and having an intimate interface such that there is two-way interaction. 21 --> On that model, it is unsurprising that genuine belief can indeed affect the body. That is, the model is at least arguable. 22 --> It fits in a wider context, where the experienced and observed world as a whole shows signs of design that cumulatively strongly point to mind before matter. So, it is empirically supportable. 23 --> But what about the idea that the placebo effect can be explained on CNS state 1 affecting CNS and body at a later time, say CNS state 2? 24 --> Whereby, mindedness is a perception that we are subjectively aware of [however that happens, not yet understood or explained], but has no effect in itself on the actual causal chain CNS t1 --> CNS t2. 25 --> 24 of course highlights the yawning gap in the middle of the materialistic account of effects of mind. Namely, it simply ignores -- sounds familiar? -- what it cannot explain. 26 --> As GP and SB etc have pointed out, we experience the world, and become aware of matter, through our conscious experience. Conscious mindedness as self-moved, intelligent and volitional creatures is empirical fact no 1 of our existence. 27 --> To ignore or dismiss that fact, and to propose a frame of thought that depends on it for the frame of thought to exist, but which frame of thought insistently ignores that central fact, is highly dubious. 28 --> Especially where we have good reason to infer that mind is in fact prior to matter. 29 --> In short, apart from the self-referential absurdity it implies, and apart from its amorality etc, the materialistic approach, whether emergentist or reductionist, is blatantly simplistic. It fails to account for reality as we experience it, and so the way it tries to treat the placebo effect etc, is suspect. 30 --> In short, the problem of he hard problem of consciousness is fatal for materialism, as is implied [but not acknowledged] by Wiki's summary:
"The term hard problem of consciousness, coined by David Chalmers[1], refers to the "hard problem" of explaining why we have qualitative phenomenal experiences." . . . . "Phenomenal consciousness (P-consciousness) is simply experience; it is moving, coloured forms, sounds, sensations, emotions and feelings with our bodies and responses at the center. These experiences, considered independently of any impact on behavior, are called qualia. The hard problem of consciousness was formulated by Chalmers in 1996, dealing with the issue of "how to explain a state of phenomenal consciousness in terms of its neurological basis" (Block 2004)."
31 --> The question-begging loop imposed by a priori materialism is obvious. As is the astonishing fact that there is simply no credible materialistic explanation of consciousness. Which is a condition of being able to conceive the worldview of materialism. Oops! 32 --> And in the end, we see that the matter is one that scientism [the subject of the thread's original post] happens to be institutionally dominant in our day, in no small part through the impact of evolutionary materialism as a perceived adequate account of life and the cosmos. 33 --> But as that a priori materialism unravels, the materialistic attempted account -- dismissal, really -- of mind, falls with it. ______________ GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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Onlookers: Pardon some remarks on brains, bodies and minds, in light of the significance of the placebo effect. Given the way the thread above is affected by MF's ongoing (rather convenient for him) boycott of anything I have to say [usually, on the increasingly threadbare claim that he has not the time to see or follow up what I have to say . . . ], this will only have effect through your interventions or your quiet observations. But of course, we are not forced to follow MF's boycott. Now, we have a fair body of evidence above, on how the placebo effect documents the old principle and saying that "belief kills and belief cures." In the negative sense, I can add to the above the observation of the manner of execution reported for certain tribes in New Guinea. Namely, the condemned was simply pointed at with a bone by the witch doctor for the tribe. And, apparently, within hours the victim would die. Belief in the power of a witch doctor could be fatal. Similarly, we are all aware of he concept of someone dying of heartbreak. That is, after sufficiently massively damaging blows to the psyche, some people can lose their will to live, and die as a result. More positively, above, thanks to BA, we see where even in the case of surgery, the ritual of surgery and the context of trust in the medical man as healer, can function as a case of faith in the Healer. All of this points strongly to two-way effects, where mentality and embodiment interact, sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad. But, is this all accountable for on materialistic models, whether emergentist ones or the Crick-style reductionism to neural networks summed up in his The Astonishing Hypothesis of 1994? Since MF seems to be of the Crickian stripe of reductionist materialist, it is useful to pause and cite Crick again:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
Johnson's rebuke that Crick should be willing to preface his books etc with the note that his own works were nothing more than neurological networks firing away on electro-chemistry, is enough to highlight the fatal self-referential incoherence involved. That was discussed in 59 above, and of course never answered by MF (who consistently will not address the multiple ways in which materialism reduces to self-referential incoherence). Now, too, let us look at the Derek Smith two-tier controller cybernetic loop model [and diagram] here, in the immediate context of a discussion of neurons, brains and minds in bodies. Once we see that a two-tier controller is potentially involved, the materialist's imagined difficulties of an alternative view by and large vanish: 1 --> The brain/CNS-body system obviously incorporates a first level in-the-loop controller. 2 --> But, just as with an ordinary technological control loop, the behaviour of a controller is not self-explanatory. 3 --> A control loop is an example of functionally specific and complex organisation, which has to be tuned, and it has to have a set-point as target, which may move along a path [think of a ship or aircraft on autopilot, where the succession of points to be at given times falls along a path]. 4 --> So, the existence of such a functional loop is best explained on a designer, and its path across time is best explained on a supervisory input that sets the desired path. 5 --> In turn, this raises issues of adaptability, self-adjustment for robustness, and learning. All of which add to the complexity of the design. 6 --> Now, Smith's model incorporates a higher order, supervisory controller that sets up the path across time, and interacts informationally with the lower order controller, thus also the loop. 7 --> This allows us to open our minds to consider various ways of implementing such an approach. 8 --> Technologically, we may consider how we might design a futuristic robot that somehow captures the imaginative, general cognitive and volitional functions that are required at the higher level for the defined functions. 9 --> This indeed points to a sophisticated hardware and software entity that continually monitors the situation of the robot in itself and in the world, through inbuilt proprioceptors and sensors that address the external world, creating a tracking model of where the robot is in the world just now, that can be linked to a stored record of where it has been, and where it is targetted to go. 10 --> This last raises the issue of targetting. Whence, the target path across time, space and activities? Can such be programmed to be learning, imaginative/creative and even volitional, in any meaningful sense? 11 --> Such are challenges for an artificially intelligent system. I believe the answer to such is open at this time. 12 --> But equally, the existence of such a sophisticated architecture and its expression points to design as its best explanation. 13 --> For, such an entity is a manifest case of that FSCO/I that points to design, on grounds of both induction from a large body of experience and the sort of "infinite monkeys" analysis that is made in this current ID foundations thread's original post. 14 --> As has been discussed starting here, that in turn points to the intelligent design of body plans for life forms, and the original, self-replicating, metabolising cell. 15 --> Beyond that, we may note how the complex, finely tuned function of the physics that sets up the cosmos as we observe it, provides a base for C-chemistry, cell based life. 16 --> THAT IS, THE BEST EXPLANATION FOR MATTER AS WE OBSERVE IT AS INTELLIGENT,C-CHEMISTRY, SELF-REPLICATING, METABOLISING CELL BASED LIVING CREATURES, IS MIND. 17 --> Once we have gone there and seen that point, the underlying materialistic attempt to dismiss the reality of mind above and beyond matter, is revealed for the question-begging that it is. we have here good reason, on empirically based inference to best explanation, to trace matter to mind. 19 --> So, that mind and matter in the form of brains and bodies can interact, even informationally -- and in the context of each of us experiencing him/her self as a self-aware, self-moving, intelligent and purposing creature -- should not be particularly surprising, then. 18 --> Similarly, to believe only in what one sees, feels or touches physically or by means of physical instruments, is to first assume that one's mindedness is real and puts one in touch with the real world. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
February 6, 2011
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BA77 I am open to the possibility that there is an "strong" placebo effect that goes beyond subjective reports of pain. Indeed, I thought that 2 days ago before I started to read more about it. It doesn't have anything to do with atheism or materialism. Even if there were a strong placebo effect it is not evidence for dualism. I already knew about the Moseley study. Two points. (1) It is based on patients' subjective reports of pain relief. So it is an example of a "weak" placebo effect. (2) There is no control group i.e. a group who had no treatment and knew they were not being treated. This is a common problem with studies that are mean't to show a placebo effect. In any group of sick people some get better, go into remission or at least report less pain in any case. Indeed the BMJ paper arising from the Moseley study only concludes that the operation is no better than placebo - not that the placebo is better than no treatment. I would want to read the McRae at al paper before coming to any conclusions. These blogs can be very misleading.markf
February 5, 2011
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StephenB The two way mind/body interaction seems rather simple. The brain effects the body, the body effects the brain. In addition the brain at one time effects the brain at a later time. Where is the problem? Can the patient's convictions be measured? Not with current technology - but in principle yes. They would not add additional weight to the brain because they would correspond to a rearrangement of the existing matter. Think of it this way. Imagine that some apparent humans were actually manufactured androids. The androids could show all aspects of the placebo effect. They could have speech detectors which created patterns in their neural circuitry corresponding to a belief they were being treated. These patterns could then have an impact on their behaviour which in turn had an impact on their recovery processes. The presence of a mind which is some other kind of thing adds nothing and indeed raises awkward questions about how that mind is influenced by and influences physical things.markf
February 5, 2011
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That should read, "If so, how are they (suggestions) transmitted into a patient's [brain] which has no extra room for any more mass or weight."StephenB
February 5, 2011
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---markf: “I don’t think I have ever said they are different things. If so, it was a mistake and will gladly correct it.” Fair enough. I now understand that you, unlike many materialists, are not arguing that the mind is a product of matter. I assumed that you were presenting classic argument for epiphenomenalism. Sorry ---“My whole point is that mind and brain are the same thing so it is nonsense to talk of one influencing the other.” ---“The placebo effect is an example of the brain/mind influencing other parts of the body.” ---“I do feel this is rather a one-way interrogation. How about an account of how the placebo effect happens under dualism? I can understand your last point very well, since I often make the reverse complaint to Darwinists who will not subject their views to scrutiny. So, I will cover all three of your points with the same answer: The materialist, by acknowledging that the brain changes the body, feels that he is being reasonable. However, what he does not take into account is the fact that the brain is also being changed. What caused the brain to change? For the dualist, the answer is not hard to conceive: It must be an immaterial mind that changes both the brain and the body. Or, it could be that the mind changes the brain which, in turn, changes the body. We know that positive thinking can affect positive changes in the brain and that negative thinking can cause negative changes in the brain. [Recall that in The Spiritual Brain, the authors provide evidence that mental activity causes changes in the brain]. We also know that rigorous mental exercises affect changes in the brain. Medical professional recommend that older people keep exercising their minds to stave off dementia. In a reciprocal sense, we also know that the body/brain can influence the mind. A man can, for example, improve his attitude and his sense of well being by simply improving his posture. In this case, either the body influences the mind, or else the body influences the brain which, in turn, influences the mind. Thus, the mind can influence the brain, and the brain can influence the mind. Obviously, that means that they are two different entities. Returning to the placebo effect, per se, the materialist’s explanatory problems do not end with the patient’s mind/body dynamic. He also has to account for the origin of the suggestions that begin the change process, which includes the mind and brain of the physician who conceived them. For the dualist, everything falls into place. I have already presented the flow chart earlier, which names which things are material [the brain of the doctor and the patient and the improved body condition of the patient] and those things that are immaterial [the doctor’s mind, his suggestions, and the convictions they produce in the patients mind, which often, but not always, produce physical changes in the patient’s body. The materialist [of the mind=brain variety] has no answers for any of these things. How does he explain the two-way mind/body interaction? How does he explain the changes in the patient’s brain that result from the placebo effect? He can’t resort to the patient’s mind because he has already ruled out that faculty. He can’t resort to the patient’s convictions or the doctor’s suggestions that prompted them without also reducing both to material entities. So, what about that? Can they be measured? Do they have mass? If so, how are they transmitted into a patient’s mind which has no extra room for any more mass or weight? Or, is it the case that suggestions made of a material substance, complete with size, shape, and mass, add to the weight of the patient's brain? Until you can address these questions, you have not really provided an explanation. No one is asking you to prove them. I, for one, just want to know how you think such a sequence is even conceivable from a materialist point of view.StephenB
February 5, 2011
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markf, here is another study of the placebo effect intruding on the surgical world; 'The results were replicated: arthroscopic surgery was equal therapeutically to the placebo effect.27 The placebo had found its way into surgical rooms.,,,Perhaps the most impressive aspect of surgical placebo arose in a groundbreaking 2004 study. In the innovative field of stem-cell research, a new approach was taken with Parkinson’s disease. Human embryonic dopamine neurons were implanted through tiny holes in the patients’ brains. Once again, the results were encouraging. And once again, the procedure failed to do better than a placebo. In this case, the placebo involved tiny holes incised in the skull without implantation of stem cells. As the researchers confessed, “The placebo effect was very strong in this study”.28 But how can it be that the therapeutic expectancy alone often produces results equal to those from actual surgery? It appears that the mind is exerting control over somatic processes, including diseases. http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/the-placebo-effect/ Pretty neat huh?bornagain77
February 5, 2011
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Marf, seeing that you are trying to argue for a 'limited' placebo effect, I thought you might be interested in this experiment which argues for a much more dramatic effect than you would feel comfortable with from your atheistic perspective:: The Placebo Effect Excerpt: Take, for example, the experiment conducted by surgeon Bruce Moseley in the summer of 1994. Moseley had ten patients scheduled for an operation intended to relieve arthritis pain in their knees. The patients, all men and military veterans, were wheeled into an operating room at the Houston Veterans Affairs Medical Center. All ten were draped, examined and anesthetized. All ten were dispatched the next day with crutches and a painkiller. What happened while they were under anesthesia, however, differed greatly. Two of them underwent the standard arthroscopic surgery, three had a rinsing alone, and five had no surgical procedure at all. Moseley simply stabbed the patients’ knees three times with a scalpel to give the illusion of surgery. I should add at this point that all ten patients were aware that they were part of a unique experiment; however they did not know who would receive the real surgery and who would not. Neither did Moseley, since he recognized that if he knew in advance what he was going to do with each patient he might somehow give it away. It wasn’t until he was actually in the operating room that he opened an envelope telling him whether he was doing a genuine procedure or a fake one. The placebo worked. Six months after surgery, still unaware of whether they had real surgery or not, all ten reported much less pain. All were happy with the outcome of the operation. One of the patients who had been assigned to the placebo group, a seventy-six year old from Beaumont, Texas, was interviewed several years after the experiment. He now mows his lawn and walks whenever he wants. "The surgery was two years ago," he says, "and the knee has never bothered me since. It’s just like my other knee now. I give a whole lot of credit to Dr. Moseley." Credit for what prompted Dr. Moseley to embark upon such an unorthodox experiment can be given to another doctor, Nelda Wray. One day she confronted him with a startling question: "How did he know that the results he was getting from the surgery weren’t just due to the placebo effect?" "It can’t be," Moseley remembers responding, but without missing a beat Doctor Wry responded, "It can be. The bigger and more dramatic the patient perceives the intervention to be, the bigger the placebo effect. Big pills have more effect than small pills, injections have more effect than pills, and surgery has the greatest effect of all." And she was proved right, which has given birth to a whole new area of investigation, the "placebo surgery." It seems the whole symbolic act of surgery—the shedding of blood, the knowledge and wisdom of the surgeons, even the scars that focus the mind to the dramatic act are all part of the healing process. http://www.learnmindpower.com/articles/placebo-effect/bornagain77
February 5, 2011
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StephenB   I am sorry.  I obviously haven’t explained myself very well.
[a] The placebo effect is a cause/effect relationship or if it isn’t.
It is. I have learned during the course of this discussion that it is much weaker than I thought and restricted to subjective reports such as pain. This may the source of confusion.
[b] If you are going deny its validity or accept it.
I don’t understand this.  What does valid/invalid mean in this context? 
[c] If you are going to keep describing the sequence of events known as the placebo effect, or if you are going to explain how a materialist can account for it.
I don’t see the difference. If I describe the sequence of events using well established causal chains for which there are materialistic explanations then what more can I do?
[d] If you are going to argue on behalf of body-to-mind materialism, which says that mind cannot influence matter, or if you are going to argue on behalf of the mind-to-body placebo effect.
See below.
Or, if you are going to try to escape from all these materialistic implications by
[e] saying that the mind and brain are, in effect, the SAME THING, then you need to explain how one can influence the other. How does the mind change the brain if it is the same thing as the brain?
I don’t think I do.  My whole point is that mind and brain are the same thing so it is nonsense to talk of one influencing the other.  The placebo effect is an example of the brain/mind influencing other parts of the body.
(By the way, I do appreciate your dilemma. Materialists really do say that the mind and the body are the same thing and are ALSO different things, depending on which argument they are trying to answer. That is one of many reasons why their world view is irrational).
I don’t think I have ever said they are different things.  If so, it was a mistake and will gladly correct it. I do feel this is rather a one-way interrogation.  How about an account of how the placebo effect happens under dualism?markf
February 5, 2011
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Mark @70 and @76: As all materialists do, you contradict yourself with every new turn. First, you say that the placebo effect is not in dispute. I point out that for dualists, the mind can influence the body and the body can influence the mind, while materialism is a one way street and permits only a body/mind influence ***You respond by questioning the very same placebo effect that you originally assumed as true. Now, you go back to affirming it again. Back an forth we go. I ask you for a materialist account of the sequence, and ***you provide another description of the sequence and call it a hypothesis. We already know the sequence and we already know about the causal chain, which by the way you both affirm and deny depending on which point you are trying to defend. I ask you to explain how the materialist can explain the placebo effect [mind influences brain] if, as the materialist says, it is only the case that the brain can influence the mind. ***You respond by saying that the mind and brain are different ways of understanding the SAME THING, which, of course, would mean that one cannot influence the other. If A influences B, then A cannot be B. If A is the same thing as B, then A cannot influence B nor can B influence A. Thus, if mind and brain are the same thing, there can be no placebo "effect." You have to make up your mind whether you believe [a] The placebo effect is a cause/effect relationship or if it isn’t. [b] If you are going deny its validity or accept it. [c] If you are going to keep describing the sequence of events known as the placebo effect, or if you are going to explain how a materialist can account for it. [d] If you are going to argue on behalf of body-to-mind materialism, which says that mind cannot influence matter, or if you are going to argue on behalf of the mind-to-body placebo effect. Or, if you are going to try to escape from all these materialistic implications by [e] saying that the mind and brain are, in effect, the SAME THING, then you need to explain how one can influence the other. How does the mind change the brain if it is the same thing as the brain? (By the way, I do appreciate your dilemma. Materialists really do say that the mind and the body are the same thing and are ALSO different things, depending on which argument they are trying to answer. That is one of many reasons why their world view is irrational).StephenB
February 5, 2011
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allanius, the main point is not the potency of the placebo effect, for markf concedes that the placebo effect is 'real', though like you he argues for a 'limit' to the effect, the main point is that markf must deny the existence of mind completely in order to explain whatever limited placebo effect he concedes, thus no matter what may be argued as to potency of the placebo effect, the burden is on markf to explain the effects we witness for mind by purely material processes, yet, as StephenB pointed out markf provides no detailed account whatsoever, just an appeal to his 'belief' that it is so!bornagain77
February 5, 2011
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I wouldn't go overboard with this placebo-effect thing. It is interesting that SSRIs are no more effective than placebo in mildly to moderately depressed patients, but only because it exposes the drug company blather about serotonin--not because the placebo effect somehow demonstrates the immateriality of mind. Mark is right on this one. The placebo effect is most marked in drug studies where the outcomes are based on subjective measurements. The real story is that "science" is not always knowledge. Sometimes it's perception and wishfull thinking. Just a few years ago, "science" was telling us that SSRIs are wonder drugs that cure depression. There was almost a pure consensus in the medical community. This consensus was clearly wrong, and the same may turn out to be true about other "scientific" verities, such as AGW and Natural Selection.allanius
February 5, 2011
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markf, you state: 'For a materialist the mental is not the result of physical and chemical activities in the brain – it is physical and chemical activities in the brain.' Yet material and physical is reducible to information; The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to teleportation: Of note: An ion is an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge. Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts ,,, reducible to infinite information at that,,, Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf and yet 'information' always comes from a mind: Stephen C. Meyer - The Scientific Basis For Intelligent Design http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4104651/ ,,, i.e. Information NEVER comes from a material process; The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf ,,, Thus the source for all the material in the universe MUST BE a Mind, moreover the Mind which created this universe must possess infinite information so as to explain the origination of even one photon of the universe. Scientific Evidence For God (Logos) Creating The Universe - 2008 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995300 ,,, So basically Markf, to stay 'scientific', you must prove that my assertions are false, you can do this by creating a photon by material processes, or by falsifying Abel's Null hypothesis! Until then your arguments will reduce to nothing more than appeals to emotion and/or deception, much like Richard Dawkins arguments reduced here: Richard Dawkins Lies About William Lane Craig AND Logic! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cfqV2tuOIbornagain77
February 5, 2011
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#67 StephenB
If, as the materialists tell us, the human mind is simply the result of chemical and electrical activity in the brain, then the physical is the cause of the mental and the mental cannot be the cause of the physical. For the materialist, there is only a one way street. The mental component cannot influence the physical component. That is one of several reasons why the placebo effect renders materialism implausible. What is your answer to that problem?
This is not specific to the placebo effect.  It is an old objection to the materialist view of the mind which is completely generic. Many activities other than the placebo effect imply two-way interaction between the physical and the mental.  It is based on a misunderstanding of the materialist view of the mind (or at least my view). For a materialist the mental is not the result of physical and chemical activities in the brain - it is physical and chemical activities in the brain. The mental and the  physical are different views of the same thing. So there is no question of one influencing the other.  But you are luring me into that old time-wasting dispute.markf
February 5, 2011
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Gpuccio #72 I don't deny that there is such a thing as placebo effect and did not intend to imply that.  The important point is that:
In general, placebo treatments produced no major health benefits, although on average they had a modest effect on outcomes reported by patients, such as pain
i.e. they are subjective effects which are just the kind of thing that can be explained by increased motivation etc.  I don’t get the significance of:
“Larger effects of placebo were also found in trials that did not inform patients about the possible placebo intervention.
All that shows is that the stronger the belief the stronger the effect. #73
For all that I know, that is a very unlikely explanation.
Why?  Each step in the process is well-established individually.  We do believe doctors, believe in getting better is motivating, taking more exercise does relief arthritis symptoms.
I do believe that the placebo effect must be explained at the level of subtle body regulations (immune system, endocrine system, cytokines), which are the networks that are more directly connected to the nervous system
On the other hand you provide zero evidence for this assertion.
Yes and no. I would say: yes, but many of the issues in those 2000 years of debate may also be relevant issues in the specific debate about placebo. You cannot completely separate the two things
If there is something relevant let’s hear about that specific thing and why it is relevant instead of trying to boil ocean before we examine anything else. I would add that even if turns out that there are more dramatic objective placebo effects and we have no idea what causes them - this still no more plausible under a dualist assumption than a materialist assumption. I am still waiting for an account of how dualist minds cause the placebo effect which is not equally applicable to materialist minds.markf
February 5, 2011
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Mark: All you “big picture” guys. Clearly it is possible to debate: Is the placebo effect evidence against materialism? without having to replay 2000 years of debate over the mind body problem. We will have to disagree over which is the more useful debate. Yes and no. I would say: yes, but many of the issues in those 2000 years of debate may also be relevant issues in the specific debate about placebo. You cannot completely separate the two things.gpuccio
February 5, 2011
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Mark: (a) The doctor prescribes a sugar pill but tells the patient it is a new effective treatment for arthritis. (b) This causes the patient to believe that the pill will cause them to recover. (c) This belief causes them to take more exercise. (d) The exercise relieves their arthritis symptoms. For all that I know, that is a very unlikely explanation. I do believe that the placebo effect must be explained at the level of subtle body regulations (immune system, endocrine system, cytokines), which are the networks that are more directly connected to the nervous system.gpuccio
February 5, 2011
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Mark: The Cochrane report certainly does not falsify the placebo effect. Indeed, the fact that the effect remains well documented even in such a large meta analysis is proof of its strong reality. We could open a long discussion about the general meaning and relevance of this kind of meta analyses, but it's probably not worthwhile. The important point is: the effect remains statistically well documented, especially in continuous studies, and certainly not only in patient reporting studies. Finally, I would point to you an important statement in the meta analysis, which IMO reinforces the validity of the effect, and its pure cognitive nature: "Larger effects of placebo were also found in trials that did not inform patients about the possible placebo intervention." QED.gpuccio
February 5, 2011
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All you "big picture" guys. Clearly it is possible to debate: Is the placebo effect evidence against materialism? without having to replay 2000 years of debate over the mind body problem. We will have to disagree over which is the more useful debate.markf
February 5, 2011
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#67 StephenB #67
We have already done that. The placebo effect requires the existence of a two-way street, meaning that the mind can influence the brain and the brain can influence the mind.
I can’t see any dualist account of how you go from Doctor prescribes sugar pill to person recovers.  However, as you also think my account is not complete I will spell it out in more detail. Three important points.  1) As the recent Cochrane report makes clear the evidence for the placebo effect is fairly weak and pretty much confined to subjective reports of feeling better (I found this out as a result of researching in response to this thread).
We studied the effect of placebo treatments by reviewing 202 trials comparing placebo treatment with no treatment covering 60 healthcare problems. In general, placebo treatments produced no major health benefits, although on average they had a modest effect on outcomes reported by patients, such as pain.
2) Where the placebo effect is established the cause is not yet known.  All we have are hypotheses. 3) There may well be multiple causes for the placebo effect. My case is that these hypotheses work just as well if you have a materialist theory of mind as if you have a dualist theory. Here is one such  hypothesis. (a) The doctor prescribes a sugar pill but tells the patient it is a new effective treatment for arthritis. (b) This causes the patient to believe that the pill will cause them to recover. (c) This belief causes them to take more exercise. (d) The exercise relieves their arthritis symptoms. You think that the belief in (b) is immaterial.  I think it is material.  But this does not affect the plausibility of the causal chain. Now perhaps you can give an explanation at a similar level of detail which shows why the placebo effect can only be explained by dualism?  markf
February 4, 2011
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vivid and tgp, I agree with the '"Big Picture', although markf is presented with many lines of evidence, from the consciousness centered quantum mechanical basis of reality, to the ability of 'intention' to effect random number generators, that 'Big Picture' evidence is ignored. It seems that markf ignores what reality is telling us about the importance of consciousness to the basis of reality, and has instead chosen to believe whatever he can imagine to be true,,, IN SPITE of what the evidence says. As StephenB has clearly pointed out, markf has yet to elucidate any plausible materialistic mechanism whatsoever for the placebo effect, save other than what he 'wishes/imagines' for it to be true. What markf is doing is simply not even in the ballpark of science!bornagain77
February 4, 2011
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tgp RE 65 "That is not true. If you don’t have the BIG PICTURE correct (think rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic) then smaller scale issues don’t matter. Says the moth…" Exactly!!!!! Vividvividbleau
February 4, 2011
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---mark: "Perhaps you might describe how this process differs in the case of a dualist mind?" We have already done that. The placebo effect requires the existence of a two-way street, meaning that the mind can influence the brain and the brain can influence the mind. If, as the materialists tell us, the human mind is simply the result of chemical and electrical activity in the brain, then the physical is the cause of the mental and the mental cannot be the cause of the physical. For the materialist, there is only a one way street. The mental component cannot influence the physical component. That is one of several reasons why the placebo effect renders materialism implausible. What is your answer to that problem?StephenB
February 4, 2011
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--markf: "I provided several explanations of how the placebo effect might work in #60 above. Perhaps you might describe how this process differs in the case of a dualist mind?" Your "explanation" @60 was not an explanation, it was simply a claim: As you wrote, "They [the points listed] apply equally whether you hold that belief is materialist or dualist perspective." But that is precisely the point that is being disputed. How can the placebo effect "apply" to a materialistic perspective? Several of us have already provided an explanation from the dualist perspective. We are waiting for yours.StephenB
February 4, 2011
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markf @ 58 "It is much more useful to discuss smaller scale precise issues such as whether the placebo effect is evidence for dualism." That is not true. If you don't have the BIG PICTURE correct (think rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic) then smaller scale issues don't matter. Says the moth...tgpeeler
February 4, 2011
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#62 StephenB I provided several explanations of how the placebo effect might work in #60 above. Perhaps you might describe how this process differs in the case of a dualist mind?markf
February 4, 2011
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---markf: "The reason I dodge the materialism discussion is because I have been round that loop more times than I care to count." The placebo effect is a special case and is offered as evidence of a phenomenon that materialism cannot explain. Your old arguments for materialism as a global world view [I, for one, do not remember them] do not speak to this specific issue. ---"The same arguments come up. People get very cross. And no one learns anything or changes their mind." Frankly I have better things to do." If you have the time and the disposition to scrutinize everyone else's arguments, it would seem that you would also have the time and the disposition to subject your own arguments to scrutiny. --"It is much more useful to discuss smaller scale precise issues such as whether the placebo effect is evidence for dualism." Useful to whom? Personally, I find straight answers to straight questions to be very useful. How does a materialist even imagine that his world view can be reconciled with the placebo effect? Take us through the process, beginning with the Doctor [as matter], his suggestion [as matter] the patient's conviction [as matter] and its capacity to change matter's momentum [the brain reversing its previous course, which was also caused by matter]. I want to experience this fantastic voyage.StephenB
February 4, 2011
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Here is the key experiment that lead Wigner to his Nobel work on symmetries:
Eugene Wigner Excerpt: -- When I returned to Berlin, the excellent crystallographer Weissenberg asked me to study: why is it that in a crystal the atoms like to sit in a symmetry plane or symmetry axis. After a short time of thinking I understood: being on the symmetry axis ensures that the derivatives of the potential energy vanish in two directions perpendicular to the symmetry axis. (In case of a symmetry plane the derivative of the potential energy vanishes in one direction.) This is how I became interested in the role of s y m m e t r i e s i n q u a n t u m m e c h a n i c s . I spent the holidays -- Christmastime and summertime -- in Hungary, in Budapest and in Alsógöd, on the shore of the Danube. There I wrote the book on "Group Theory and its Application to the Quantum Mechanics of Atomic Spectra." [To the author 1983.] -- The intrusion of group theory into quantum mechanics was not received with applause. Wolfgang Pauli called the idea Gruppenpest. Albert Einstein and Erwin Schrödinger also expressed their uneasiness. Max Born and Max von Laue were more encouraging. John von Neumann and Leo Szilard enthusiastically encouraged Wigner's efforts. It was worth to do so: these efforts later resulted in a Nobel Prize. If an experiment is repeated elsewhere in another laboratory under similar conditions, it will give identical result. The experiment today yields the very same result as it yielded yesterday. If we turn the whole equipment by 300, it will not influence the result. The outcome depends neither on the location and timing of the experiment, nor on the spacial orientation of the equipment. Even speed (e.g. that of the Earth) does not influence the way the laws of Nature work. To express this b a s i c e x p e r i e n c e in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector. possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using an other clock, perhaps being lefthanded), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another.
http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm i.e. the world does not have a 'privileged center' in the experiment, yet the conscious observer does! Thus Wigner's dramatic statement here: “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wignerbornagain77
February 4, 2011
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Gpuccio The difference is that, while the body can be interpreted algorithmically, and its procedures, although complex, can be seen as the result of previous design, consciousness, instead, is a fresh originator of perceptions, feelings and purposes. This seems to me to be more about free will than consciousness. The materialist account and the dualist account both accept that a false belief that something will causing the body to recover may cause that body to recover. The only difference you seem to have identified is that on the dualist account the false belief is in some sense "freshly originated". Why on earth should this make a difference? It appears to me to be an assumption with no justification. As a doctor you must know that there are a number of proposed explanations for the placebo effect. Examples include: * Believing that you have taken a relaxing agent is in itself relaxing. * Believing that you have taken a stimulant (and are about to be stimulated) is in itself stimulating. * Believing that you are being effectively treated is motivating and will cause you to try harder at other supportive activities such as taking exercise. * We want to believe that we are recovering and so emphasise any subjective feelings of improvement. I imagine that these and others are all true in different circumstances. These are reasonable explanations of how a false belief might lead to such a result. They apply equally whether you hold that belief is materialist or dualist. To say that the belief is originated adds nothing. (Incidentally, I am sure you are also aware that the Cochrane metastudy on the placebo effect found that evidence for it was much weaker than commonly supposed and almost entirely limited to subjective reports.)markf
February 4, 2011
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Mark: Whatever our prior beliefs about dualism and materialism, I wonder do you now accept that the placebo effect provides no more evidence for dualism than it does for materialism? Your account in #45 said several things about the placebo effect which are equally true under either view and argued that the placebo effect was evidence of design, but did not at any point show how the placebo effect was evidence for dualism. No, my position remains different, even if I can understand your point of view. My position is that the placebo effect is by far best explained by an interface model, where consciousness acts on the body according to its inherent principles and laws (cognition being one of them). An explanation based on materialistic assumptions, while logically possible, is by far extremely stretched and non credible. You have showed that all the features of the placebo effect can in principle be explained by a materialistic model. I do agree with that. But again, yours is a philosophical and logical discourse, not an empirical search for the best explanation. Your explanation rests on so many unwarranted assumptions that it has to pay an extremely heavy price to credibility just to build a semi consistent scenario. You have to assume that some state corresponding to some specific cognition (a judgement about reality) is for some unknown reason connected as a trigger to specific and purposeful procedures of healing. Why that would be so remains a mystery, unless you invoke darwinian mechanisms, engaging in even more mythological contexts. Moreover, I don't agree that you can separate so easily the "dualism" and design aspects of the issue. The design aspects of what happens are obviously much more consistent with an interface model, where consciousness has its purposes and feelings, and reacts to things according to the intrinsic laws of conscious representations, and then outputs the resulting representations to the bodily system. The difference is that, while the body can be interpreted algorithmically, and its procedures, although complex, can be seen as the result of previous design, consciousness, instead, is a fresh originator of perceptions, feelings and purposes. The intrinsic importance of a judgmennt about reality is an intrinsic property of the cognitive nature of consciousness, and cannot be explained algorithmically. It is a feeling, rather than a cognition: the feeling that we have to know truth, and not some simulacre of truth. That's why no "cheat" is possible in the placebo effect. The mind cannot act by mere opportunity, saying: well, I will believe that, because so I will heal. That just does not work. The mind has to be really sincere in its conviction about reality, because the mind has a spontaneous faith in the laws of reality. That is something that no materialistic model can explain. We want to know truth, because we feel intuitively that only truth can really help us, that only truth is really good and worthwhile. Even our body cannot really respond to representations we believe to be false in the same way as it responds to representatitons we believe to be true. OK, this basic respect for the truth a of judgement, which remains in the body even when the mind has become accustomed to cheat and to believe falsities, can probably be explained by some materialistic model based on darwinism (I have no doubt of that). But how credible is that explanation?gpuccio
February 4, 2011
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