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RVB8 and the refusal to mark the difference between description and invention

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. . . (of the concept, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I)


Sometimes, a longstanding objector here at UD — such as RVB8 — inadvertently reveals just how weak the objections to the design inference are by persistently clinging to long since cogently answered objections. This phenomenon of ideology triumphing over evident reality is worth highlighting as a headlined post illustrating darwinist rhetorical stratagems and habits.

Here is RVB8 in a comment in the current Steve Fuller thread:

RVB8, 36: >> for ID or Creationism, I can get the information direct from the creators of the terminology. Dembski for Specified Complexity, Kairos for his invention of FSCO/I, and Behe for Irreducible Complexity.>>

As it seems necessary to set a pronunciation, the acronym FSCO/I shall henceforth be pronounced “fish-koi” (where happily, koi are produced by artificial selection, a form of ID too often misused as a proxy for the alleged powers of culling out by differential reproductive success in the wild)

For a long time, he and others of like ilk have tried to suggest that as I have championed the acrostic summary FSCO/I, the concept I am pointing to is a dubious novelty that has not been tested through peer review or the like and can be safely set aside. In fact, it is simply acknowledging that specified complexity is both organisational and informational, and that in many contexts it is specified in the context of requisites of function through multiple coupled parts. Text such as in this post shows a simple form of such a structure, S-T-R-I-N-G-S.

Where of course, memorably, Crick classically pointed out to his son Michael on March 19, 1953 as follows, regarding DNA as text:

Crick’s letter

Subsequently, that code was elucidated (here in the mRNA, transcribed form):

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins and specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

Likewise a process flow network is an expression of FSCO/I, e.g. an oil refinery:

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

This case is much simpler than the elucidated biochemistry process flow metabolic reaction network of the living cell:

I have also often illustrated FSCO/I in the form of functional organisation through a drawing of an ABU 6500 C3 reel (which I safely presume came about through using AutoCAD or the like):

All of this is of course very directly similar to something like protein synthesis [top left in the cell’s biochem outline], which involves both text strings and functionally specific highly complex organisation:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

In short, FSCO/I is real, relevant and patently descriptive, both of the technological world and the biological world. This demands an adequate causal explanation, and the only serious explanation on the table that is empirically warranted is, design.

As the text of this post illustrates, and as the text of objector comments to come will further inadvertently illustrate.

Now, I responded at no 37, as follows:

KF, 37: >>Unfortunately, your choice of speaking in terms of “invention” of FSCO/I speaks volumes on your now regrettably habitual refusal to acknowledge phenomena that are right in front of you. As in, a descriptive label acknowledges a phenomenon, it does not invent it.

Doubtless [and on long track record], you think that is a clever way to dismiss something you don’t wish to consider.

This pattern makes your rhetoric into a case in point of the sociological, ideological reaction to the design inference on tested sign. So, I now respond, by way of addressing a case of a problem of sustained unresponsiveness to evidence.

However, it only reveals that you are being selectively hyperskeptical and dismissive through the fallacy of the closed, ideologised, indoctrinated, hostile mind.

I suggest you need to think again.

As a start, look at your own comment, which is text. To wit, a s-t-r-i-n-g of 1943 ASCII characters, at 7 bits per character, indicating a config space of 2^[7 * 1943) possibilities. That is, a space with 2.037*10^4094 cells.

The atomic and temporal resources of our whole observed cosmos, running at 1 search per each of 10^80 atoms, at 10^12 – 10^14 searches per s [a fast chem reaction rate] for 10^17 s [time since big bang, approx.] could not search more than 10^111 cells, a negligibly small fraction. That is, the config space search challenge is real, there is not enough resource to search more than a negligibly small fraction of the haystack blindly. (and the notion sometimes put, of somehow having a golden search runs into the fact that searches are subsets, so search for a golden search comes from the power set of the direct config space, of order here 2^[10^4094]. That is, it is exponentially harder.)

How then did your text string come to be? By a much more powerful means: you as an intelligent and knowledgeable agent exerted intelligently directed configuration to compose a text in English.

That is why, routinely, when you see or I see text of significant size in English, we confidently and rightly infer to design.

As a simple extension, a 3-d object such as an Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel is describable, in terms of bit strings in a description language, so functional organisation is reducible to an informational equivalent. Discussion on strings is WLOG.

In terms of the living cell, we can simply point to the copious algorithmic TEXT in DNA, which directly fits with the textual search challenge issue. There is no empirically warranted blind chance and mechanical necessity mechanism that can plausibly account for it. We have every epistemic and inductive reasoning right to see that the FSCO/I in the cell is best explained as a result of design.

That twerdun, which comes before whodunit.

As for, oh it’s some readily scorned IDiot on a blog, I suggest you would do better to ponder this from Stephen Meyer:

The central argument of my book [= Signature in the Cell] is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .

The central problem facing origin-of-life researchers is neither the synthesis of pre-biotic building blocks (which Sutherland’s work addresses) or even the synthesis of a self-replicating RNA molecule (the plausibility of which Joyce and Tracey’s work seeks to establish, albeit unsuccessfully . . . [[Meyer gives details in the linked page]). Instead, the fundamental problem is getting the chemical building blocks to arrange themselves into the large information-bearing molecules (whether DNA or RNA) . . . .

For nearly sixty years origin-of-life researchers have attempted to use pre-biotic simulation experiments to find a plausible pathway by which life might have arisen from simpler non-living chemicals, thereby providing support for chemical evolutionary theory. While these experiments have occasionally yielded interesting insights about the conditions under which certain reactions will or won’t produce the various small molecule constituents of larger bio-macromolecules, they have shed no light on how the information in these larger macromolecules (particularly in DNA and RNA) could have arisen. Nor should this be surprising in light of what we have long known about the chemical structure of DNA and RNA. As I show in Signature in the Cell, the chemical structures of DNA and RNA allow them to store information precisely because chemical affinities between their smaller molecular subunits do not determine the specific arrangements of the bases in the DNA and RNA molecules. Instead, the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) forms between the backbone and each one of the four bases, allowing any one of the bases to attach at any site along the backbone, in turn allowing an innumerable variety of different sequences. This chemical indeterminacy is precisely what permits DNA and RNA to function as information carriers. It also dooms attempts to account for the origin of the information—the precise sequencing of the bases—in these molecules as the result of deterministic chemical interactions . . . .

[[W]e now have a wealth of experience showing that what I call specified or functional information (especially if encoded in digital form) does not arise from purely physical or chemical antecedents [[–> i.e. by blind, undirected forces of chance and necessity]. Indeed, the ribozyme engineering and pre-biotic simulation experiments that Professor Falk commends to my attention actually lend additional inductive support to this generalization. On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information. That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process. Thus, the discovery of functionally specified, digitally encoded information along the spine of DNA, provides compelling positive evidence of the activity of a prior designing intelligence. This conclusion is not based upon what we don’t know. It is based upon what we do know from our uniform experience about the cause and effect structure of the world—specifically, what we know about what does, and does not, have the power to produce large amounts of specified information . . . .

[[In conclusion,] it needs to be noted that the [[now commonly asserted and imposed limiting rule on scientific knowledge, the] principle of methodological naturalism [[ that scientific explanations may only infer to “natural[[istic] causes”] is an arbitrary philosophical assumption, not a principle that can be established or justified by scientific observation itself. Others of us, having long ago seen the pattern in pre-biotic simulation experiments, to say nothing of the clear testimony of thousands of years of human experience, have decided to move on. We see in the information-rich structure of life a clear indicator of intelligent activity and have begun to investigate living systems accordingly. If, by Professor Falk’s definition, that makes us philosophers rather than scientists, then so be it. But I suspect that the shoe is now, instead, firmly on the other foot. [[Meyer, Stephen C: Response to Darrel Falk’s Review of Signature in the Cell, SITC web site, 2009. (Emphases and parentheses added.)]

Let me focus attention on the highlighted:

First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals.

The only difference between this and what I have highlighted through the acronym FSCO/I, is that functionally specific organisation is similarly reducible to an informational string and is in this sense equivalent to it. Where, that is hardly news, AutoCAD has reigned supreme as an engineers design tool for decades now. Going back to 1973, Orgel in his early work on specified complexity, wrote:

. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . .

[HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [–> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant “wiring diagram” for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [–> so if the q’s to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [–> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]

So, the concept of reducing functional organisation to a description on a string of y/n structured questions — a bit string in some description language — is hardly news, nor is it something I came up with. Where obviously Orgel is speaking to FUNCTIONAL specificity, so that is not new either.

Likewise, search spaces or config spaces is a simple reflection of the phase space concept of statistical thermodynamics.

Dembski’s remarks are also significant, here from NFL:

p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology.

I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity, or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . .

Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism’s subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites:

Wouters, p. 148: “globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms,”

Behe, p. 148: “minimal function of biochemical systems,”

Dawkins, pp. 148 – 9: “Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction.”

On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel’s famous remark from 1973, which exactly cited reads:

In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .

And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”] . . .”

p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”

So, the problem of refusal to attend to readily available, evidence or even evidence put in front of objectors to design theory is significant and clear.

What it in the end reflects as a case of clinging to fallacies and myths in the teeth of correction for years on end, is the weakness of the case being made against design by its persistent objectors.

Which is itself highly significant.>>

Now, let us discuss, duly noting the highlighted and emphasised. END

Comments
@UBP,KF: At the beginning, this was just a tangent (as Bob said) - I, too, became interested whether there was a kind of merkvers which KF used. KF could have answered Bob's question just by saying: "Well, I use acrostic as an adjective of acronym" Some of us onlookers would have shaken our heads, but the general reaction would have been "meh, if he wishes to..." The problem starts when KF made up a new etymology for acrostic
Thus ACRO + . . . is a framework, for prefixes speaking to an extremity or dominant high point or extremity comparable to a citadel or a key port. So, too, we readily see how the suffix -ic can be used to create adjectival forms and/or nouns.
, thereby claiming that the word has been used in KF'S sense all the time by everyone. How can you discuss with someone who suddenly uses words so unconventionally, but isn't aware of it? PS: I see "wortgeklingel" and raise "motive mongering rhetoric"...Orloog
March 6, 2017
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Question: "How did the first cell become specified before the organization required to specify something?" ... Answer: Verbiage Foul !! Wortgeklingel !! Tautology !!Upright BiPed
March 6, 2017
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KF, acrostic has always been a noun (well, since the 1580s), you abuse it as an adjective ! An "acrostic poem" is a tautology, as acrostic itself is a kind of poem.... I repeat - as you obviously haven't read it:
acrostic isn’t just acro + ic (acroic?), but acro + stikhos, the latter meaning “line of verse”.
Orloog
March 6, 2017
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Orloog, All you have done is point to acrostic poetry, for which the no 1 exemplar is Psalm 119, which lays out the Heb Alphabet . . . just possibly, the original one (per those Sinai turquoise mine inscriptions of what may be Manasseh and co. Ltd) . . . to teach the significance of Scripture. I simply point out that the core concept is in the prefix, Acro, extremity. As a result, structurally, an acronym is an acrostic name and what I see in dictionaries as "acrostic" seems to be a contracted phrase: acrostic poem. (By which adjective becomes noun as is common in English.) Poetry is secondary, these days -- FBI, NSA, CIA, KGB/NKVD, USSR, USA, HTML, SQL etc -- show how acronyms have become dominant. Likewise, being able to call the letters in sequence conveniently as a word (such as laser, radar and sonar or asdic) has taken a back seat -- as the M-W example directly implies. So, no, the whole side tracking has been needless if you and others had simply taken Merriam Webster in no 3 above seriously: "also : an abbreviation (such as FBI) formed from initial letters : initialism" -- notice, how "initialism" is here synonymous. I spoke further for record, in order to show that there is method to madness as perceived. And, given what was there from 3 above per Merriam-Webster, all of this majoring on minors is patently eloquent testimony by evasive silence that the key point of FSCO/I has force to be reckoned with. Not, what does acro mean, but the empirically reliable inference to design as key causal process, on seeing FSCO/I as sign. KF PS: I expanded and put into paras. I find, too, you seem to miss the significance of chiasm as a rhetorical structure [descending then re-ascending the steps], of mnemonics and of how acronyms interact with both. Acronyms are the high ground citadel here.kairosfocus
March 6, 2017
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KF, if you hadn't just looked up acro-, but acrostic, you would have found that acrostic isn't just acro + ic (acroic?), but acro- + stikhos, the latter meaning "line of verse". So, an acrostic is literally:
a series of lines or verses in which the first, last, or other particular letters when taken in order spell out a word, phrase, etc.
The acrostic is the whole poem, not just the letters at the beginning - though, obviously, it can be used as a pars-pro-toto....
Functionally Specific, Complex Organisation and associated / Information
is no poetry, regardless what your teachers have taught you. If you had looked up the definition of acrostic after you read Bob's comment, you could have avoided the whole tangent! That would have been a pity, as it would have deprived us from wortgeklingel like : "Acrostic poems, inscriptions and names would then be closely related forms, with the further influence that this interacts with the memory-aiding power of the mnemonic and may interact with rhetorical forms such as the chiasm, which criss-crosses a descending and ascending sequence of points."Orloog
March 6, 2017
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DS, sigh. I first note on how studiously the focal matter is side-stepped; which itself speaks volumes. On the insisted upon tangent I have been quite puzzled; as I am simply reporting what I learned long ago in grade school from my teachers (admittedly, notoriously of the old school), and which accords with the pattern in my name, that of my brother and my father. Acro- is a Gk-origin prefix used e.g. in acro-polis [a high-point citadel -- fortification -- in a city such as . . . per historical significance . . . Athens, Corinth and Jerusalem, and some key ports have borne the same], which per Dictionary.com means "a combining form with the meanings “height,” “tip end,” “extremities of the body" . . . . [fr.] Greek, combining form of ákros topmost, highest; akin to Latin acer sharp. [--> I wonder on connexion to names for steel here] Cf. acme, ear2." Patently, the initial letter of a word is an extremity; readily pointing to its use, including possibly independently as there has been a longstanding literary habit of going to Gk or Lat to create new words in English. Thus ACRO + . . . is a framework, for prefixes speaking to an extremity or dominant high point or extremity comparable to a citadel or a key port. So, too, we readily see how the suffix -ic can be used to create adjectival forms and/or nouns. Acrostic poems, inscriptions and names would then be closely related forms, with the further influence that this interacts with the memory-aiding power of the mnemonic and may interact with rhetorical forms such as the chiasm, which criss-crosses a descending and ascending sequence of points. Often, creating a natural focal point at the pivot where the sequence turns back: ask not what country can do for you but instead what you can do for country: C--> Y, Y --> C, focus, Y. Acrostics, then are a significant cluster that are a literary and/or rhetorical high-point that then dominates a lot of conceptual ground even as the Acra in Jerusalem dominated its history at a crucial time as the Maccabees took so long to break it. So, no I do not believe I am speaking loosely, save insofar as I have been led to understand that being able to readily pronounce has yielded to the ubiquity of such abbreviations. Note, again, Merriam-Webster from no 3 above (which should have settled the side-track at the outset): "also : an abbreviation (such as FBI) formed from initial letters : initialism" -- where the exemplar given has no ready pronunciation save the sounding of the letters; likewise for HTML (hit-mal tempts me . . .), etc. That is the context in which I have given a way to sound FSCO/I, fish-koi in part as an answer to the puerile schoolyard taunt that has been inflicted by way of irresponsible, sneering dismissal of a rather inconvenient phenomenon for ideological evolutionary materialism. Namely, FSCO/I is ubiquitous in language and in technology as well as the world of cell based life, where for every independently observable case it reliably comes about by design, with a base of trillions of examples. This, being backed up by the needle in haystack blind search challenge. Now, let us return to focal concerns. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2017
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KF,
I simply point out that an acronym is a type of acrostic, an acrostic name; that’s why it tends to be made up from initial letters.
That's quite a flexible definition of acrostic you are using, where the initial letters can "spell" something as arbitrary as FSCO/I.daveS
March 5, 2017
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RVB8 and the refusal to mark the difference between description and invention I'm a bit perplexed about the expectation coming from the convinced materialist... Which way the author of this post expected RVB* to respond? According to his beliefs or yours?J-Mac
March 5, 2017
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DS, BO'H and Orlog: It seems you are insistent on tangents. In reply to the latest, I simply point out that an acronym is a type of acrostic, an acrostic name; that's why it tends to be made up from initial letters. Obviously, there are also acrostic poems and inscriptions etc in which initial letters are cleverly arranged to spell out a message or word (and yes there are complexities beyond this first level). The willingness to expend so much on trying to find me in the wrong on a minor point while studiously avoiding the substantial matter speaks for itself on the actual force of the design inference on FSCO/I -- "fish-koi" -- as empirically reliable sign. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2017
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timothya @17:
Are you saying that the design inference only works above a certain level of “complexity”[?]
Welcome to the debate! Of course a certain level of complexity is required. We can't call any two-bit relationship "complex". Right from the outset Dembski proposed his universal probability bound as a specific number. There are many, many designed things that exist below that level of complexity, but the bound is proposed in order to eliminate false positives. It is a rational and rigorous approach to the complexity side of the equation. Even if we required a higher level of complexity, a vast number of biological systems qualify for that level of complexity. Again, this is exceedingly basic and foundational to the design inference, so worth spending some time on if you are still unclear about what "complex" means in the context of intelligent design.Eric Anderson
March 5, 2017
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KF, Somewhat tangential, although not wholly, given the original point of the OP. You used the word acrostic. You cited a definition of acronym These words have different meanings. Please, just acknowledge that you made a rather trivial error in the OP.daveS
March 5, 2017
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kf @ 36 - yes, I did. But it didn't help, but you called FCSI/O an acrostic, and I'm intrigued about that, not about the acronym.Bob O'H
March 5, 2017
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@KF: you wrote in your article:
or a long time, he and others of like ilk have tried to suggest that as I have championed the acrostic summary FSCO/I, the concept I am pointing to is a dubious novelty that has not been tested through peer review or the like and can be safely set aside.
Please don't harass DS, Bob OH and others just because you don't remember what you have been writing....Orloog
March 5, 2017
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DS, please read the Merriam-Webster definition clipped at no 3: " also : an abbreviation (such as FBI) formed from initial letters : initialism." And, we don't need to be off on a tangent. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2017
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KF, Come on, it's just a mixup of two similar words. No one will think worse of you if you acknowledge the error.daveS
March 5, 2017
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Origines, yes. That is one power of inductive reasoning and inference on tested, reliable sign. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2017
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Bob, did you read no 3 above on acronyms? Looks like no, link: https://uncommondescent.com/complex-specified-information/functionally-specified-complex-information-organization/rvb8-and-the-refusal-to-mark-the-difference-between-description-and-invention-of-the-concept-functionally-specific-complex-organisation-and-associated-information-fscoi/#comment-626274 KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2017
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Eric Anderson: The real point for present purposes is not whether “life can be coaxed from inanimate matter”. Let’s assume that it can for a moment. The real point is that this “coaxing” will be done through detailed, purposeful planning and engineering. It will not occur through mere dint of physical/chemical processes on their own. Thus, the conclusion of design stands firmly grounded, regardless of whether living organisms are just particular arrangements of matter or whether there is something to their nature beyond the material and the physical.
Behold the great strength of Intelligent Design: it can gracefully grant materialism all its assumptions. Sure, dear materialist, everything biological may very well be entirely physical, but you cannot deny the existence of design and intelligent designers. And, sure, also these intelligent designers may very well be entities who are entirely physical, but you cannot deny that the relationship between intelligent designers and design is a clear distinct class of causation. And most surely, dear materialist, you must admit that intelligent design is the best explanation for all the fancy stuff in life.Origenes
March 5, 2017
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kf - sorry, where did you post the definition of 'acrostic'. I can't find it!Bob O'H
March 5, 2017
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Bob O'H, unresponsive to the focal issue, which is pivotal. That speaks volumes; esp as I cited dictionary authority that backs up my usage and provided a pronunciation if that was desired. Again, you are underscoring the want of serious response on the part of too many longstanding design inference objectors. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2017
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OK, kf @ 3 - a more substantive question. If FSCO/I is an acrostic (as you still state, what are the other lines, that include FSCOI? I'm genuinely interested to know what it means (assuming it is genuinely an acrostic).Bob O'H
March 5, 2017
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Seversky, we are all familiar with string data structures and no informed person would deny that such are informational. Such are everywhere in our digital age. Such text, notoriously, is sensitive to corruption, i.e. it reflects functional specificity and organisation that is informational. The point then is, since 1953, with more and more detail across the years, we have known DNA is also a string data structure. One that is informational, null state being two bits per base in the chain, as it can take up A/C/G/T as states. We know such tapes are transcribed and edited to form mRNA, which is threaded into ribosomes and used, step by step, to create proteins, the workhorse molecules of the cell. All of this is commonplace now. Your attempt to dismiss the impressing of information into the organisation of DNA based on codes as tabulated in the OP, simply shows us that the point is strong and runs against where you wish to go ideologically. By in effect trying to deflect a major fact, you show that your ideology of evolutionary materialist scientism does not sit well with the facts of DNA. Thanks for confirming the strength of the design inference on seeing DNA etc in the heart of the cell. Which, I think we can safely take, is long prior to issues of consciousness in a certain multicellular upright non-feathered bipedal species that loves to pretend to wisdom and brilliance. KF PS: The motive mongering rhetoric doubly fails. First, as too many objectors to design have adherence to ideologies, including self-refuting evolutionary materialism, which is thus inherently and irretrievably irrational. Second, you are committing an error of projection. Just because evolutionism was used to make it seem that God was out of a job does not mean that the motivation of design thinkers looking at the world of life runs more or less like: the cell is designed, therefore God is its designer. On the contrary ever since Thaxton et al in the 1980's, the explicit point has repeatedly been made that an inference to design of observed cell based life on earth does not instantly lead to a conclusion as to who such a designer is, much less whether that designer is within or beyond the cosmos. The insistence of objectors on pretending otherwise strongly implies that they are desperate to appeal to anti-religious sentiment to taint the atmosphere. If you want to look at a design inference that DOES point beyond the observed cosmos, fine tuning of the physics and circumstances of the cosmos that sets up a world in which C-chemistry, aqueous medium, terrestrial planet cell based life is possible is a much better candidate, That's why there are nervous jokes about the First Church of God, big bang sponsoring faculty talks from its base in astrophysics departments, with guest lecturer the lifelong agnostic Sir Fred Hoyle. The 1980-81 remarks by Sir Fred give sharp point to the jokes. And the fine tuning challenge has only grown since. PPS: If I ponder my own case, I have to start from the fact that by rights I should have died from out of control asthma 46 years ago. It is desperate prayer of surrender of my mother that led to a miracle of guidance THAT VERY MORNING, which saved my life. This incident is foundational to my family. Next, I am deeply struck by the force of the historic witness of the C1 Christians, starting with the 500 who stod unflinchingly for what they directly knew to be true, regardless of dungeon, fire, sword and worse. Then I see the positive transformation in my life, in that of millions, and in the course of civilisation, and I know delusions are ruinous, not integrative. Then, I see the metaphysical implications of being a rationally and responsibly free, morally governed thinking being, including on logic. That points to the only serious candidate world root level IS capable of grounding OUGHT: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty [I owe him my LIFE!] and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (If you doubt this, simply put up another serious candidate that is not prone to spectacular collapse. For sure, evo mat scientism fails the coherence test and is necessarily false.)kairosfocus
March 5, 2017
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Seversky @ 27, "If life cannot arise from inanimate matter through some sort of naturalistic process then the only rational alternative is intelligent agency." Correct! So far so good -- except that while the materialist holds to a religious hope against hope that the impossible naturalistic path to life from non-life will be revealed, the path becomes more difficult with every revelation of a new layer of complexity that tops the already multiple layers of complexity in a working cell. Here's Crick 40 years ago: “To produce this miracle of molecular construction all the cell need do is string together the amino acids (which make up the polypeptide chain) IN THE CORRECT ORDER [emphasis in original]. This is a complicated biochemical process, a molecular assembly line, using instructions in the form of nucleic acid tape (the so called messenger RNA) which will be described in outline in Chapter 5. Here we need only ask, how many possible proteins are there? If a particular amino acid sequence was selected by chance, how rare an event would that be? “This is an easy exercise in combinatorials. Suppose the chain is about two hundred amino acids long; this is, if anything, rather less that the average length of proteins of all types. Since we have just twenty possibilities at each place, the number of possibilities is twenty multiplied by itself some two hundred times. This is conveniently written as 10^260, that is a one, followed by 260 zeros! “This number is quite beyond our everyday comprehension. For comparison, CONSIDER THE NUMBER OF FUNDAMENTAL PARTICLES (ATOMS, SPEAKING LOOSELY) IN THE ENTIRE VISIBLE UNIVERSE, NOT JUST IN OUR OWN GALAXY WITH ITS 10^11 STARS, BUT IN ALL THE BILLIONS OF GALAXIES, OUT TO THE LIMITS OF THE OBSERVABLE SPACE. THIS NUMBER WHICH IS ESTIMATED TO BE 10^80 IS QUITE PALTRY BY COMPARISON TO 10^260 [emphasis mine]. Moreover, we have only considered a polypeptide chain of a rather modest length. Had we considered longer ones as well the figure would have been even more immense. It is possible to show that even since life started on earth, the number of different polypeptide chains which could have been synthesized during all this long time is only a minute fraction of the number of imaginable ones. The great majority of sequences can never have been synthesized at all, at any time. “ Francis Crick, Life Itself -- Its Origin and Nature (Simon and Schuster, 1981), 51-52. Life is more complex than even Crick knew back in '81 making the, "rational alternative," that much more plausible, and dismissing overwhelming evidence is not a paean to science, it is the exact opposite -- it is anti-science. "Now, while it is possible to discuss intelligent agency without specifying the agent, there is a huge amount of content in the comments on this blog which make it quite clear who most here believe that agent to be and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise." Wrong! Patently wrong! Crick saw the impossible complexity and came to the same exact conclusion -- intelligence -- but Crick's intelligent designer was alien (and not the illegal type). "From this point on we must leave behind quantitative considerations, however approximate, and allow our imagination a somewhat freer hand. We shall postulate that on some distant planet, some four billion or so years ago, there had evolved a form of higher creature who, like ourselves, had discovered science and technology, developing them far beyond anything we have accomplished, since they would have had plenty of time and it is most unlikely that their society would have stopped at exactly the stage at which we are now." Crick saw that the machine like, specified, coded, programed, impossible, complexity of life pointed toward an intelligent designer. In that regard, he was at least honest, which is far more than can be said for most materialists today who simply ignore the science when it flies in the face of their religion. As Crick demonstrates, who or what the designer might be, is irrelevant to the science that points toward design. Was Crick wrong about the complexity of the cell because he accepted the straight forward implication that it required a designer even though his designer was a space alien? No, of course not. Who or what the designer is and what our relationship is to him/her/it, is a separate question that has nothing much to do with the unmistakable implication that the utter impossible complexity of life must require a designer. To believe anything else is to hold to an irrational faith that rejects straight forward science.Florabama
March 4, 2017
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Seversky @28: I agree with you there are some interesting open questions about the nature of life -- certainly if we are willing to consider the hard questions, such as consciousness, awareness and the like. I may be at odds with some of my colleagues, but my personal assessment is that it is still an open scientific question whether life -- certainly sentient life -- can arise from just a specific arrangement of matter. We will have to see how that plays out in the coming decades -- probably going far beyond creating a bacterium or other single-celled organism before we have an inkling of an answer. In either case, for purposes of the debate over materialistic evolution and intelligent design, the primary issue is not whether there is something else above and beyond the specific arrangement of matter found in living organisms. It is sufficient to look at this specific arrangement of matter to draw a conclusion of design. So the initial inquiry is not whether "life can be coaxed from inanimate matter". Intelligent design doesn't argue against that possibility. It may well be possible, and many design proponents might adopt such a position. Indeed, as a working assumption it is perfectly compatible with intelligent design. The real point for present purposes is not whether "life can be coaxed from inanimate matter". Let's assume that it can for a moment. The real point is that this "coaxing" will be done through detailed, purposeful planning and engineering. It will not occur through mere dint of physical/chemical processes on their own. Thus, the conclusion of design stands firmly grounded, regardless of whether living organisms are just particular arrangements of matter or whether there is something to their nature beyond the material and the physical. And if it turns out that there is indeed something else required for life -- something above and beyond the particular arrangement of matter, some consciousness or intelligence or soul or spirit (or whatever we want to call it) -- if something above and beyond physical matter is required, that fact will certainly cut further against the materialist narrative not in favor of it.Eric Anderson
March 4, 2017
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Eric Anderson @ 25
And if we are ever able to create life, you’d better believe it will be the result of detailed, purposeful planning and engineering, not a bunch of particles accidentally bumping into each other . . .
Yes, it will. But it will also prove that it is possible for life to be coaxed from inanimate matter. If it isn't, then all the abiogeneticists are wasting their time.Seversky
March 4, 2017
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kairosfocus @ 24
no one is positing a creator here; this is not a matter of postulating. (We would appreciate it if you would stop trotting out this long mummified, moldy strawman caricature.)
If life cannot arise from inanimate matter through some sort of naturalistic process then the only rational alternative is intelligent agency. Now, while it is possible to discuss intelligent agency without specifying the agent, there is a huge amount of content in the comments on this blog which make it quite clear who most here believe that agent to be and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
The issue as you know from many years of objecting to it, is that functionally specific organisation of high information content and high complexity exists as a commonplace phenomenon.
You also know that I reject the notion that information - at least in the commonly understood meaning of the word - is a property of the natural world rather than the mental models we use to describe that world. Yes, depending on your assumptions, you can calculate that some event is so improbable as to be impossible for all practical purposes, yet highly improbable events happen all the time. You and I are both astronomically improbable events, yet we are just two of over seven billion equally improbable events that populate this planet. As I've written many times, do I know how the Universe began or how life emerged? No, I don't and neither does anyone else. They are still profound mysteries. I can't rule out intelligent agency but unless it is an agent functionally indistinguishable from a god then it doesn't help with those most fundamental questions.Seversky
March 4, 2017
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EA, my guess is, across this century, building on Venter et al. KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2017
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Seversky @23:
And the fact we haven’t done it so far doesn’t necessarily mean we never will.
Quite right. And if we are ever able to create life, you'd better believe it will be the result of detailed, purposeful planning and engineering, not a bunch of particles accidentally bumping into each other . . .Eric Anderson
March 4, 2017
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Seversky, no one is positing a creator here; this is not a matter of postulating. (We would appreciate it if you would stop trotting out this long mummified, moldy strawman caricature.) The issue as you know from many years of objecting to it, is that functionally specific organisation of high information content and high complexity exists as a commonplace phenomenon. In the literally trillions of cases where we directly know the source of such FSCO/I, it is design as process -- intelligently directed configuration. Further to this a simple application of phase/state space thinking soon tells us that for cases reducible to 500 - 1,000 or more bits of information, blind chance and mechanical necessity processes on the gamut of the sol system or the observed cosmos across 10^17s could only sample a negligibly small fraction of the config spaces; ten billion years makes no difference to this, it is ALREADY factored into the analysis as part of the search resources, which are patently inadequate. Thus, it is maximally implausible that a blind, undirected, non purposive, non designed process could arrive at cases of FSCO/I. So, observation, analysis and inductive reasoning all align: FSCO/I is currently best explained as a reliable sign of intelligent design as key causal input. This is prior to identifying any particular "suspects, " big-C or small-c creators. So long as designers are possible, inferring design on FSCO/I is reasonable. In this context, the many obfuscations, strawman caricatures, side-tracks etc made by objectors to this inference over many years now plainly point to the weakness of the objection case. If your side had a strong case, it should be readily apparent that blind chance and mechanical necessity get us to FSCO/I. You don't have this, there are trillions of known cases and they all point to design. The config space, search challenge analysis backs this up. Indeed at the upper end threshold of 1,000 bits, using 10^25 s as time to "heat death" makes little difference on the cosmic scale, we are still talking about taking a few straws worth of sample so to speak, from a haystack that would dwarf the observed cosmos. You are inadvertently underscoring the strength of the design inference as to type of cause. And, an intelligent explanation is not like a mechanical one. Insight, skill, knowledge, creativity and purpose, not mere motions and figures of cogs grinding away in Leibniz's mill. I ask you, HOW exactly did you compose your comment, show the mechanical steps. That is almost irrelevant and absurd. You chose as a rational being knowledgeable of English and able to use a PC or phablet or whatever. Fingers moved to hit keys here and there are immaterial, it is which keys you -- a who -- CHOSE to type in what successive pattern that shaped the post. For all we know, a molecular nanotech lab several generations beyond Venter would work. Means we do not yet imagine could be possible. That matters not, from the TEXT in D/RNA we can see that algorithms were coded to carry out extremely sophisticated processes, using molecular nanotech devices. That points to high art, not brute blind chance and mechanical necessity. KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2017
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Florabama @ 20
tim and rv, it would seem, based on your view, quite easy to create life in the lab, so where is it? You have made it “crystal” clear, that all that’s required are a few minerals and some common chemical reactions, and “poof.” So where is it? Why are you two keeping the secret to yourselves? Here we are 150 years removed from Darwin and 60 years removed from Miller/Urey, and 50 years from landing on the moon, and we’re still waiting for the headline for something that’s as easy as growing a Donald Trump chia pet. Just pour a little water on it, right? When you tell the world, can I come to your Nobel acceptance party?
If life came about through naturalistic or materialistic processes - and, as an unreconstructed old atheist/materialist, I still say "if" - then it took the Universe over 10 billion years to get to the earliest life on Earth. So the fact that we haven't been able to do it in the last hundred or so is hardly surprising. And the fact we haven't done it so far doesn't necessarily mean we never will. The reality is that no one - not materialists, not creationists - know how the laws or regularities or information that make this Universe the way it is came about. It's one of the most profound mysteries. Unfortunately, positing a Creator doesn't really help. That's just proposing a 'who' not a 'how'. Of course, for those who believe they have a direct line to a Creator who will listen to - and even respond to - prayers for a particular football team to win, you could also put in a request for information on how the Creation was actually done. If you got something back, that really would be the answer to a prayer.Seversky
March 4, 2017
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