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RVB8 and the refusal to mark the difference between description and invention

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. . . (of the concept, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I)


Sometimes, a longstanding objector here at UD — such as RVB8 — inadvertently reveals just how weak the objections to the design inference are by persistently clinging to long since cogently answered objections. This phenomenon of ideology triumphing over evident reality is worth highlighting as a headlined post illustrating darwinist rhetorical stratagems and habits.

Here is RVB8 in a comment in the current Steve Fuller thread:

RVB8, 36: >> for ID or Creationism, I can get the information direct from the creators of the terminology. Dembski for Specified Complexity, Kairos for his invention of FSCO/I, and Behe for Irreducible Complexity.>>

As it seems necessary to set a pronunciation, the acronym FSCO/I shall henceforth be pronounced “fish-koi” (where happily, koi are produced by artificial selection, a form of ID too often misused as a proxy for the alleged powers of culling out by differential reproductive success in the wild)

For a long time, he and others of like ilk have tried to suggest that as I have championed the acrostic summary FSCO/I, the concept I am pointing to is a dubious novelty that has not been tested through peer review or the like and can be safely set aside. In fact, it is simply acknowledging that specified complexity is both organisational and informational, and that in many contexts it is specified in the context of requisites of function through multiple coupled parts. Text such as in this post shows a simple form of such a structure, S-T-R-I-N-G-S.

Where of course, memorably, Crick classically pointed out to his son Michael on March 19, 1953 as follows, regarding DNA as text:

Crick’s letter

Subsequently, that code was elucidated (here in the mRNA, transcribed form):

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins and specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

Likewise a process flow network is an expression of FSCO/I, e.g. an oil refinery:

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

This case is much simpler than the elucidated biochemistry process flow metabolic reaction network of the living cell:

I have also often illustrated FSCO/I in the form of functional organisation through a drawing of an ABU 6500 C3 reel (which I safely presume came about through using AutoCAD or the like):

All of this is of course very directly similar to something like protein synthesis [top left in the cell’s biochem outline], which involves both text strings and functionally specific highly complex organisation:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

In short, FSCO/I is real, relevant and patently descriptive, both of the technological world and the biological world. This demands an adequate causal explanation, and the only serious explanation on the table that is empirically warranted is, design.

As the text of this post illustrates, and as the text of objector comments to come will further inadvertently illustrate.

Now, I responded at no 37, as follows:

KF, 37: >>Unfortunately, your choice of speaking in terms of “invention” of FSCO/I speaks volumes on your now regrettably habitual refusal to acknowledge phenomena that are right in front of you. As in, a descriptive label acknowledges a phenomenon, it does not invent it.

Doubtless [and on long track record], you think that is a clever way to dismiss something you don’t wish to consider.

This pattern makes your rhetoric into a case in point of the sociological, ideological reaction to the design inference on tested sign. So, I now respond, by way of addressing a case of a problem of sustained unresponsiveness to evidence.

However, it only reveals that you are being selectively hyperskeptical and dismissive through the fallacy of the closed, ideologised, indoctrinated, hostile mind.

I suggest you need to think again.

As a start, look at your own comment, which is text. To wit, a s-t-r-i-n-g of 1943 ASCII characters, at 7 bits per character, indicating a config space of 2^[7 * 1943) possibilities. That is, a space with 2.037*10^4094 cells.

The atomic and temporal resources of our whole observed cosmos, running at 1 search per each of 10^80 atoms, at 10^12 – 10^14 searches per s [a fast chem reaction rate] for 10^17 s [time since big bang, approx.] could not search more than 10^111 cells, a negligibly small fraction. That is, the config space search challenge is real, there is not enough resource to search more than a negligibly small fraction of the haystack blindly. (and the notion sometimes put, of somehow having a golden search runs into the fact that searches are subsets, so search for a golden search comes from the power set of the direct config space, of order here 2^[10^4094]. That is, it is exponentially harder.)

How then did your text string come to be? By a much more powerful means: you as an intelligent and knowledgeable agent exerted intelligently directed configuration to compose a text in English.

That is why, routinely, when you see or I see text of significant size in English, we confidently and rightly infer to design.

As a simple extension, a 3-d object such as an Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel is describable, in terms of bit strings in a description language, so functional organisation is reducible to an informational equivalent. Discussion on strings is WLOG.

In terms of the living cell, we can simply point to the copious algorithmic TEXT in DNA, which directly fits with the textual search challenge issue. There is no empirically warranted blind chance and mechanical necessity mechanism that can plausibly account for it. We have every epistemic and inductive reasoning right to see that the FSCO/I in the cell is best explained as a result of design.

That twerdun, which comes before whodunit.

As for, oh it’s some readily scorned IDiot on a blog, I suggest you would do better to ponder this from Stephen Meyer:

The central argument of my book [= Signature in the Cell] is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .

The central problem facing origin-of-life researchers is neither the synthesis of pre-biotic building blocks (which Sutherland’s work addresses) or even the synthesis of a self-replicating RNA molecule (the plausibility of which Joyce and Tracey’s work seeks to establish, albeit unsuccessfully . . . [[Meyer gives details in the linked page]). Instead, the fundamental problem is getting the chemical building blocks to arrange themselves into the large information-bearing molecules (whether DNA or RNA) . . . .

For nearly sixty years origin-of-life researchers have attempted to use pre-biotic simulation experiments to find a plausible pathway by which life might have arisen from simpler non-living chemicals, thereby providing support for chemical evolutionary theory. While these experiments have occasionally yielded interesting insights about the conditions under which certain reactions will or won’t produce the various small molecule constituents of larger bio-macromolecules, they have shed no light on how the information in these larger macromolecules (particularly in DNA and RNA) could have arisen. Nor should this be surprising in light of what we have long known about the chemical structure of DNA and RNA. As I show in Signature in the Cell, the chemical structures of DNA and RNA allow them to store information precisely because chemical affinities between their smaller molecular subunits do not determine the specific arrangements of the bases in the DNA and RNA molecules. Instead, the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) forms between the backbone and each one of the four bases, allowing any one of the bases to attach at any site along the backbone, in turn allowing an innumerable variety of different sequences. This chemical indeterminacy is precisely what permits DNA and RNA to function as information carriers. It also dooms attempts to account for the origin of the information—the precise sequencing of the bases—in these molecules as the result of deterministic chemical interactions . . . .

[[W]e now have a wealth of experience showing that what I call specified or functional information (especially if encoded in digital form) does not arise from purely physical or chemical antecedents [[–> i.e. by blind, undirected forces of chance and necessity]. Indeed, the ribozyme engineering and pre-biotic simulation experiments that Professor Falk commends to my attention actually lend additional inductive support to this generalization. On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information. That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process. Thus, the discovery of functionally specified, digitally encoded information along the spine of DNA, provides compelling positive evidence of the activity of a prior designing intelligence. This conclusion is not based upon what we don’t know. It is based upon what we do know from our uniform experience about the cause and effect structure of the world—specifically, what we know about what does, and does not, have the power to produce large amounts of specified information . . . .

[[In conclusion,] it needs to be noted that the [[now commonly asserted and imposed limiting rule on scientific knowledge, the] principle of methodological naturalism [[ that scientific explanations may only infer to “natural[[istic] causes”] is an arbitrary philosophical assumption, not a principle that can be established or justified by scientific observation itself. Others of us, having long ago seen the pattern in pre-biotic simulation experiments, to say nothing of the clear testimony of thousands of years of human experience, have decided to move on. We see in the information-rich structure of life a clear indicator of intelligent activity and have begun to investigate living systems accordingly. If, by Professor Falk’s definition, that makes us philosophers rather than scientists, then so be it. But I suspect that the shoe is now, instead, firmly on the other foot. [[Meyer, Stephen C: Response to Darrel Falk’s Review of Signature in the Cell, SITC web site, 2009. (Emphases and parentheses added.)]

Let me focus attention on the highlighted:

First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals.

The only difference between this and what I have highlighted through the acronym FSCO/I, is that functionally specific organisation is similarly reducible to an informational string and is in this sense equivalent to it. Where, that is hardly news, AutoCAD has reigned supreme as an engineers design tool for decades now. Going back to 1973, Orgel in his early work on specified complexity, wrote:

. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . .

[HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [–> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant “wiring diagram” for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [–> so if the q’s to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [–> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]

So, the concept of reducing functional organisation to a description on a string of y/n structured questions — a bit string in some description language — is hardly news, nor is it something I came up with. Where obviously Orgel is speaking to FUNCTIONAL specificity, so that is not new either.

Likewise, search spaces or config spaces is a simple reflection of the phase space concept of statistical thermodynamics.

Dembski’s remarks are also significant, here from NFL:

p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology.

I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity, or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . .

Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism’s subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites:

Wouters, p. 148: “globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms,”

Behe, p. 148: “minimal function of biochemical systems,”

Dawkins, pp. 148 – 9: “Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction.”

On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel’s famous remark from 1973, which exactly cited reads:

In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .

And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”] . . .”

p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”

So, the problem of refusal to attend to readily available, evidence or even evidence put in front of objectors to design theory is significant and clear.

What it in the end reflects as a case of clinging to fallacies and myths in the teeth of correction for years on end, is the weakness of the case being made against design by its persistent objectors.

Which is itself highly significant.>>

Now, let us discuss, duly noting the highlighted and emphasised. END

Comments
Armand Jacks: Now, to make it interesting, are you willing to answer a question? Here goes: Do you or do you not acknowledge that there is a difference between the information contained in the molecules making up a pile of inanimate dirt and the molecules making up chalconatronite?
It seems to me you were asking someone to agree that there is a difference between the information contained in a pile of inanimate dirt and the information contained in Chalconatronite. I then asked you if you knew what any of this information is. Now you seem to be saying that you don't actually know if any information is there.Upright BiPed
March 7, 2017
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Armand Jacks: Thank you for at least answering the question. You went on to say:
But there is also a significant difference between the information contained in the molecules of the two naturally ocurring materials.
Since you make this interesting assertion, can you please let us know what you imagine to be this significant difference between the information contained in Chalconatronite and that contained in a pile of inanimate dirt or any other naturally occurring mineral? Note, the question is not whether Chalconatronite has the same molecules as some other mineral. The question is about the information contained therein -- given your claim that there is some. Alternatively, we can get to the same point if you are willing to expound on what you think the difference is in the information contained in your genome, as opposed to Chalconatronite. Either way, the answer, should you be willing and able to come up with it, will point toward the fundamental issue KF is highlighting in this thread.Eric Anderson
March 7, 2017
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UB:
I have just a question for clarity. I was wondering if you can tell me anything about this information – a piece of the information perhaps – contained in the dirt?"
I wish I could. But it was EA who brought the issue up. You should probably ask him.Armand Jacks
March 7, 2017
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AJ, you seem to be referencing the presence of physical information in the dirt. Is that correct? I have just a question for clarity. I was wondering if you can tell me anything about this information - a piece of the information perhaps - contained in the dirt?Upright BiPed
March 7, 2017
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KF, with respect, it was EA who asked the questions, not you. But, since it is your thread, I will explain my point. EA was trying to show that there is a significant difference between the information in the molecules making up dirt or Chalconatronite (both naturally formed) and the information in the molecules making up a genome. Which is not being contested. But there is also a significant difference between the information contained in the molecules of the two naturally ocurring materials. Therefore, how does the difference between the genome and dirt mean design, but the difference between dirt and Chalconatronite not mean design?Armand Jacks
March 7, 2017
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AJ, you have asked a trivial matter, which EA long since highlighted the answer to, and beyond him, Leslie Orgel, when he wrote, as follows, in 1973 as cited in OP:
. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures [--> minerals are crystalline in general], because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified [--> the former, a random mass of crystals, the latter a random mixture at micro-scale, such as a tar]. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .
The repeated side tracking of this thread i/l/o that point from the OP, is telling. KFkairosfocus
March 7, 2017
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EA@98
Do you or do you not acknowledge that there is a difference between the information contained in the molecules making up your genome and the molecules making up a pile of inanimate dirt?
Yes, I acknowledge that there is a difference.
Or, since you prefer to talk about Chalconatronite, we can word it this way: Do you or do you not acknowledge that there is a difference between the information contained in the molecules making up your genome and the molecules making up Chalconatronite?
Yes, I acknowledge that there is a difference. Now, to make it interesting, are you willing to answer a question? Here goes: Do you or do you not acknowledge that there is a difference between the information contained in the molecules making up a pile of inanimate dirt and the molecules making up Chalconatronite?Armand Jacks
March 7, 2017
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M62, sadly, you are right. Here is 1 John 3:15b: " . . . you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." This is a critical test, no one impenitently guilty of blood and/or of the hate that leads to such overt actions is or could be in right relationship with God; there is need for repentance and reformation. That is why in reviewing how he made havoc of the faith in former days through excessive zeal for his religious agenda, Paul called himself the chief of sinners, and a trophy of God's grace. No-one intent on responsible commentary on the Christian faith and the sins and blessings of Christendom, will be ignorant of or will fail to soberly understand and address this issue of critical moral tests for genuine Christian discipleship. morally freighted truth demands moral transformation and absence of the latter implies that profession is empty -- and so such emptiness should be promptly remedied through repentance and reform of life. KF PS: Notice, how -- hours after EA's challenge at 100 above -- what we are seeing is yet another intended toxic tangent rather than any serious grappling with the pivotal issue; something that is actually a matter of back to longstanding basics? Where, notice also just whose remarks are specifically headlined in the OP. That speaks saddening volumes as to the actual motives and willful distortions at work.kairosfocus
March 7, 2017
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rvb8 @103 The murderers were not Christians, regardless of what they claimed they believed. (Mat 7:16,20) You're a troll.mike1962
March 7, 2017
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Kairos, OT, More than seven hundred murdered children found in a sewer in an Irish orphanage. The sweet sisters of Bon Cecours murdered them over a period from the 1930s-1960s, for the crime of being bastards. The Church is 'shocked!' I'm not! Thank you God for this priceless example of Christian Love, and understanding of Christ's teachings. Are Protestants any better? Read a book!rvb8
March 7, 2017
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Orlong @67 "No, for me, that is not longer the point of this tangent – I have a problem with KF making up an etymology of acrostic to bolster his quite unusual use of this word, i.e., as just the adjective for acro." That sounds like you just said, "no it's not, but yes it is." Arguing about the use of acrostic is just being the grammar police while ignoring the point of his very detailed and in depth post, isn't it?Florabama
March 7, 2017
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Phinehas @99 Excellent!Origenes
March 7, 2017
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BTW, critical rationalist, Orloog, Armand Jacks, Seversky and any others: Feel free to jump in and answer the question @98 in an honest and objective way so that we know you aren't just avoiding the central issues and focusing on red herrings. Or you could remain conveniently silent on the substantive issue and hope timothya somehow squirms out of answering the real questions . . .Eric Anderson
March 7, 2017
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Sev:
If life came about through naturalistic or materialistic processes – and, as an unreconstructed old atheist/materialist, I still say “if” – then it took the Universe over 10 billion years to get to the earliest life on Earth. So the fact that we haven’t been able to do it in the last hundred or so is hardly surprising.
Really? You say this as if it is obviously true. Yet we routinely produce things the universe seems incapable of producing via random chance over a much greater time frame. From wikipedia on the Infinite Monkey Theorem:
Even if every proton in the observable universe were a monkey with a typewriter, typing from the Big Bang until the end of the universe (when protons might no longer exist), they would still need a still far greater amount of time – more than three hundred and sixty thousand orders of magnitude longer – to have even a 1 in 10^500 chance of [producing Hamlet]. To put it another way, for a one in a trillion chance of success, there would need to be 10^360,641 universes made of atomic monkeys.[note 6] As Kittel and Kroemer put it in their textbook on thermodynamics, the field whose statistical foundations motivated the first known expositions of typing monkeys,[3] "The probability of Hamlet is therefore zero in any operational sense of an event...", and the statement that the monkeys must eventually succeed "gives a misleading conclusion about very, very large numbers." In fact there is less than a one in a trillion chance of success that such a universe made of monkeys could type any particular document a mere 79 characters long.[note 7]
So multiple times in this one thread you've managed to produce what the universe almost certainly cannot. You could probably do so again quite mindlessly over lunch, between bites of a sandwich, with no government funding whatsoever. You are either giving random processes way too much credit, or selling intelligent agency much too short. Either way, it is fantastically surprising that the universe should have merely stumbled onto and preserved processes and codes so technologically advanced and sophisticated that the best minds in the world cannot replicate it after more than a century. Any lack of surprise at this fact is a clear sign that ideology is being given precedence over rationality in forming one's expectations.Phinehas
March 7, 2017
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timothya: The initial, basic, starting point of the analysis remains on the table for you: Let’s start back at square 1: Do you or do you not acknowledge that there is a difference between the information contained in the molecules making up your genome and the molecules making up a pile of inanimate dirt? Or, since you prefer to talk about Chalconatronite, we can word it this way: Do you or do you not acknowledge that there is a difference between the information contained in the molecules making up your genome and the molecules making up Chalconatronite? ----- Answer the above question and then we will know whether there is any point in further discussion with you.Eric Anderson
March 7, 2017
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You specifically presented chalconatronite as a counter-example in comment #79. You, of course, already know this. Your counter-example is easily refuted. And so, now you play the troll. You don't need me around for that.Upright BiPed
March 7, 2017
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Uprid Biped: "#79 Chalconatronite has a genome?" Has anyone said so? If so, where and when?timothya
March 7, 2017
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#79 Chalconatronite has a genome? Do tell.Upright BiPed
March 7, 2017
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If you have time, there is an honest account of the uprising, and its brutal suppression in Jan Morris' "Pax Brittanica", a history of the British Empire. It is in Volume 2, "Pax Brittanica", an ironic title in this case.timothya
March 7, 2017
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TA, I was named after my paternal grandma, he was her great uncle; the family line ties to Jacobins and likely [I speculate] people in the famous regiment which was in Jamaica for a time -- which would renew family ties and would leave "brown skin" descendants also. And yes, the events I speak of showed the ugly side of British global piracy. As in small-time operator -- pirate. Big time operator -- navy. A language is a dialect backed by an army or navy, and more. You duly noted the 1,000 houses (my history books did not speak of multiple thousands) razed to the ground and we should note the fact that that parish has never fully recovered down to today. I once knew a descendant of Bogle, and it made a bittersweet flavour to our friendship and joint fight to create a new generation of technology education programmes in the teeth of the wishes of the powers that be. Blood tells. BTW, the story I got was Bogle's [common law?] wife fled pregnant over mountain trails; beating of such women was not in the history books but I don't doubt the sort of idiots who ran a kangaroo court and callously murdered an innocent man under colours of justice could easily do that. The behaviour surrounding the Christmas 1831 uprising was just as questionable. KF PS: If it is the same one, it is an error of sources that gave the history, they point to the Irish famine. I have never heard of that figure other than as Governor Eyre; without a given name. PPS: it is Edward John, and he was in Australia. I always wondered about Lake Eyre mentioned in 2nd or 3rd form Geography [it is too long ago now to be clear], it is the same man; no wonder I had a queasy feeling in those classes -- someone walking across your grave. Somebody was, though I thought at the time, it's just a name; likely it is not THAT monster. I will adjust my understanding of the Irish famine connexion. The comparison is there at institutional level, especially given the Bogle petition and the ill-advised reply, but it is not directly personal.kairosfocus
March 7, 2017
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By the way, Edward Eyre had nothing to do with the Irish potato famine. Bad as he was, it isn't fair to tar him with that one. He was in Australia the whole time it happened.timothya
March 7, 2017
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If anyone is interested, here is one part of the Wikipedia account of the Jamaican uprising: "According to one soldier, "we slaughtered all before us… man or woman or child". In the end, the soldiers killed 439 black Jamaicans directly, and they arrested 354 more (including Paul Bogle), who were later executed, many without proper trials. Bogle was executed "either the same evening he was tried or the next morning."[5] Other punishments included flogging of more than 600 men and women (including some pregnant women), and long prison sentences. The soldiers burned thousands of homes belonging to black Jamaicans without any justifiable reason, leaving families homeless throughout the parish. This was the most severe suppression of unrest in the history of the British West Indies, exceeding incidents during slavery years." This is what British imperialism stood for.timothya
March 7, 2017
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KF, were you named after George Gordon?timothya
March 7, 2017
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KF: "My first given name — I am what could be called a name-bearer — is written in my family’s martyred blood over the door of my native land’s parliament. Which, per family tradition, stands on the site of my relative’s house; seized after his execution on false charges of fomenting rebellion. Kangaroo court in front of two idiot militia officers who would not allow time for GWG’s physician to be called in witness as to why he was absent from a pivotal meeting. A Governor who had helped preside over the Irish famine approved the execution, in an ill-judged action likely driven by resentment over GWG warning in parliament that famine and the people of my native land were a volatile mix and calling for reasonable acts of relief. GWG was hanged on one hour’s notice to himself. Not, one of Britain’s finer moments. At least, the Governor was recalled in disgrace — though cheered on his way to the ship as a hero by some — and was tried. He of course got off. The cockneys rendered their verdict by hanging him in effigy. To give due acknowledgement, Darwin protested. But, the matter is replete with lessons of history bought with blood and tears. [I add: kindly, note time stamps. above, I pointed to the remarks of Leslie Orgel in 1973 on the differences between crystals, random polymers and the functionally specific complex molecules found in cell based life. And, not for the first time. On language, you know the vulgarity you used, one of the seven notorious words.]" Is "GWG" George William Gordon? And was the Governor that you refer to George Eyre? I do know a bit about him (coming as he did from Australia). If so, he was most certainly an imperialist murderer in the Jamaican uprising and Gordon's death was most certainly a judicial murder.timothya
March 7, 2017
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Orloog, I have not disputed the direct construction [I have had no reason to doubt it], I have pointed to the influence of -ic as a suffix, which WILL have an influence. And no I am not simply indulging folk etymology. In that context, given repeated pointing out of the distractive nature, I must point out the rhetorical pattern, red herring --> strawman caricature --> ad hominem driven dismissal of a case on the merits through atmosphere tainting. The sustained evasion of empirical evidence on the reality of FSCO/I, the ducking of the observation base of trillions of cases and the refusal to engage the search challenge analysis in the end speak volumes regarding balance on the merits. TA, My first given name -- I am what could be called a name-bearer -- is written in my family's martyred blood over the door of my native land's parliament. Which, per family tradition, stands on the site of my relative's house; seized after his execution on false charges of fomenting rebellion. Kangaroo court in front of two idiot militia officers who would not allow time for GWG's physician to be called in witness as to why he was absent from a pivotal meeting. (The doctor was all of 40 miles away and a man's life was on the line, never mind he was facing a prognosis of maybe one year to live.) A Governor who had helped preside over the Irish famine approved the execution, in an ill-judged action likely driven by resentment over GWG warning in parliament that famine and the people of my native land were a volatile mix and calling for reasonable acts of relief. GWG was hanged on one hour's notice to himself. Not, one of Britain's finer moments. At least, the Governor was recalled in disgrace -- though cheered on his way to the ship as a hero by some -- and was tried. He of course got off. The cockneys rendered their verdict by hanging him in effigy. To give due acknowledgement, Darwin protested. But, the matter is replete with lessons of history bought with blood and tears. [I add: kindly, note time stamps. above, I pointed to the remarks of Leslie Orgel in 1973 on the differences between crystals, random polymers and the functionally specific complex molecules found in cell based life. And, not for the first time. On language, you know the vulgarity you used, one of the seven notorious words.] KFkairosfocus
March 7, 2017
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critical rationalist @76
CR: Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory explains how the appearance of purposive design in the sophisticated adaptations of living organisms can have come about without their intentionally being designed. The explanation relies crucially on … natural selection.
‘Natural selection’ is, in fact, a process of elimination. Elimination only explains why some organisms go out of existence, but does not explain why organisms come into existence. Darwin’s theory promotes the false belief that elimination is creative.
Darwin: Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows.
Given that natural selection is a process of elimination, existent organisms are the ones that got away. Instead of being created by ‘natural elimination’, exactly the opposite is true: they are “untouched” by ‘natural elimination’. Existent organisms are those organisms on which natural selection has precisely no bearing whatsoever. They are the undiluted products of chance.Origenes
March 7, 2017
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KF: “Where, if you think my handle is bad, ponder the bitter history lessons written into my personal name!” TA: My question is: Could you let us know what those lessons might be? KF's response: "TA, kindly scroll up to the OP and take time to learn what Leslie Orgel put on the table in 1973. KF PS: Also, you know far better than you have done with language." TA: Sorry, but I can't see anything that is related to your "handle". Was Leslie Orgel personally acquainted with you? Was he referring to you personally in his paper? Please explain.timothya
March 7, 2017
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@KF
PS: Assume I am utterly in the wrong on using Acrostic in adjectival sense. What relevance is that to FSCO/I apart from distraction? Nil.
1) Sigh. You may use "acrostic" in an adjectival sense - just not as the adjective to "acros", but to "acrostic" 2) If you keep up repeating a demonstrably wrong fact - even after being confronted with overwhelming evidence - what relevance is that to your credibility?Orloog
March 7, 2017
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TA, kindly scroll up to the OP and take time to learn what Leslie Orgel put on the table in 1973. KF PS: Also, you know far better than you have done with language.kairosfocus
March 7, 2017
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AJ, I find it interesting that you chose to invidiously compare FSCO/I with " . . . the best way to market numerology, phrenology or astrology." Now, let us see, you posted a text, using ASCII code, in English, of 225 characters, manifesting functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information. Such a text comes from a field of 2^(7 * 225) possibilities, 1.325*10^474. Blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, using all the atomic and temporal resources of our observed cosmos -- 10^80 or thereabouts atoms for about 10^17 s, at 10^12 to 10^14 tries each per s, could not search anything but a negligibly small fraction of that total, and would face a supertask to reach such islands of function in the config space. You tossed it off through intelligently directed configuration in a matter of minutes. That remarkable difference reflects injection of active, intelligent information. It also points to what you are loath to acknowledge, but which is empirically reliable on an observation base of trillions. FSCO/I is observable, can be quantified and compared to thresholds of utter implausibility for blind search [500 - 1,000 bits], and is a strong sign of design as cause. To overturn that, we do not need loaded comparisons with superstitions, nor ideological question-begging enforced by the new lab coat clad magisterium. No, we need to see demonstration that blind chance and mechanical necessity has the needed capability. Studies so far are a factor of 10^100+ short of the threshold band. It is an empirically reliable, analytically plausible inference that FSCO/I is a sign of design as cause. On analyses and observations that are quite similar to those that give us high confidence in the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Further to this, we can detect a trace of the perception that equates worldview level acceptance of ethical theism with ignorant superstition. I suggest, such a dismissive leap is ill-advised and speaks more about the objector than about the credibility of such theism as a worldview. KFkairosfocus
March 7, 2017
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