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RVB8 and the refusal to mark the difference between description and invention

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. . . (of the concept, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I)


Sometimes, a longstanding objector here at UD — such as RVB8 — inadvertently reveals just how weak the objections to the design inference are by persistently clinging to long since cogently answered objections. This phenomenon of ideology triumphing over evident reality is worth highlighting as a headlined post illustrating darwinist rhetorical stratagems and habits.

Here is RVB8 in a comment in the current Steve Fuller thread:

RVB8, 36: >> for ID or Creationism, I can get the information direct from the creators of the terminology. Dembski for Specified Complexity, Kairos for his invention of FSCO/I, and Behe for Irreducible Complexity.>>

As it seems necessary to set a pronunciation, the acronym FSCO/I shall henceforth be pronounced “fish-koi” (where happily, koi are produced by artificial selection, a form of ID too often misused as a proxy for the alleged powers of culling out by differential reproductive success in the wild)

For a long time, he and others of like ilk have tried to suggest that as I have championed the acrostic summary FSCO/I, the concept I am pointing to is a dubious novelty that has not been tested through peer review or the like and can be safely set aside. In fact, it is simply acknowledging that specified complexity is both organisational and informational, and that in many contexts it is specified in the context of requisites of function through multiple coupled parts. Text such as in this post shows a simple form of such a structure, S-T-R-I-N-G-S.

Where of course, memorably, Crick classically pointed out to his son Michael on March 19, 1953 as follows, regarding DNA as text:

Crick’s letter

Subsequently, that code was elucidated (here in the mRNA, transcribed form):

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins and specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

Likewise a process flow network is an expression of FSCO/I, e.g. an oil refinery:

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

This case is much simpler than the elucidated biochemistry process flow metabolic reaction network of the living cell:

I have also often illustrated FSCO/I in the form of functional organisation through a drawing of an ABU 6500 C3 reel (which I safely presume came about through using AutoCAD or the like):

All of this is of course very directly similar to something like protein synthesis [top left in the cell’s biochem outline], which involves both text strings and functionally specific highly complex organisation:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

In short, FSCO/I is real, relevant and patently descriptive, both of the technological world and the biological world. This demands an adequate causal explanation, and the only serious explanation on the table that is empirically warranted is, design.

As the text of this post illustrates, and as the text of objector comments to come will further inadvertently illustrate.

Now, I responded at no 37, as follows:

KF, 37: >>Unfortunately, your choice of speaking in terms of “invention” of FSCO/I speaks volumes on your now regrettably habitual refusal to acknowledge phenomena that are right in front of you. As in, a descriptive label acknowledges a phenomenon, it does not invent it.

Doubtless [and on long track record], you think that is a clever way to dismiss something you don’t wish to consider.

This pattern makes your rhetoric into a case in point of the sociological, ideological reaction to the design inference on tested sign. So, I now respond, by way of addressing a case of a problem of sustained unresponsiveness to evidence.

However, it only reveals that you are being selectively hyperskeptical and dismissive through the fallacy of the closed, ideologised, indoctrinated, hostile mind.

I suggest you need to think again.

As a start, look at your own comment, which is text. To wit, a s-t-r-i-n-g of 1943 ASCII characters, at 7 bits per character, indicating a config space of 2^[7 * 1943) possibilities. That is, a space with 2.037*10^4094 cells.

The atomic and temporal resources of our whole observed cosmos, running at 1 search per each of 10^80 atoms, at 10^12 – 10^14 searches per s [a fast chem reaction rate] for 10^17 s [time since big bang, approx.] could not search more than 10^111 cells, a negligibly small fraction. That is, the config space search challenge is real, there is not enough resource to search more than a negligibly small fraction of the haystack blindly. (and the notion sometimes put, of somehow having a golden search runs into the fact that searches are subsets, so search for a golden search comes from the power set of the direct config space, of order here 2^[10^4094]. That is, it is exponentially harder.)

How then did your text string come to be? By a much more powerful means: you as an intelligent and knowledgeable agent exerted intelligently directed configuration to compose a text in English.

That is why, routinely, when you see or I see text of significant size in English, we confidently and rightly infer to design.

As a simple extension, a 3-d object such as an Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel is describable, in terms of bit strings in a description language, so functional organisation is reducible to an informational equivalent. Discussion on strings is WLOG.

In terms of the living cell, we can simply point to the copious algorithmic TEXT in DNA, which directly fits with the textual search challenge issue. There is no empirically warranted blind chance and mechanical necessity mechanism that can plausibly account for it. We have every epistemic and inductive reasoning right to see that the FSCO/I in the cell is best explained as a result of design.

That twerdun, which comes before whodunit.

As for, oh it’s some readily scorned IDiot on a blog, I suggest you would do better to ponder this from Stephen Meyer:

The central argument of my book [= Signature in the Cell] is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .

The central problem facing origin-of-life researchers is neither the synthesis of pre-biotic building blocks (which Sutherland’s work addresses) or even the synthesis of a self-replicating RNA molecule (the plausibility of which Joyce and Tracey’s work seeks to establish, albeit unsuccessfully . . . [[Meyer gives details in the linked page]). Instead, the fundamental problem is getting the chemical building blocks to arrange themselves into the large information-bearing molecules (whether DNA or RNA) . . . .

For nearly sixty years origin-of-life researchers have attempted to use pre-biotic simulation experiments to find a plausible pathway by which life might have arisen from simpler non-living chemicals, thereby providing support for chemical evolutionary theory. While these experiments have occasionally yielded interesting insights about the conditions under which certain reactions will or won’t produce the various small molecule constituents of larger bio-macromolecules, they have shed no light on how the information in these larger macromolecules (particularly in DNA and RNA) could have arisen. Nor should this be surprising in light of what we have long known about the chemical structure of DNA and RNA. As I show in Signature in the Cell, the chemical structures of DNA and RNA allow them to store information precisely because chemical affinities between their smaller molecular subunits do not determine the specific arrangements of the bases in the DNA and RNA molecules. Instead, the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) forms between the backbone and each one of the four bases, allowing any one of the bases to attach at any site along the backbone, in turn allowing an innumerable variety of different sequences. This chemical indeterminacy is precisely what permits DNA and RNA to function as information carriers. It also dooms attempts to account for the origin of the information—the precise sequencing of the bases—in these molecules as the result of deterministic chemical interactions . . . .

[[W]e now have a wealth of experience showing that what I call specified or functional information (especially if encoded in digital form) does not arise from purely physical or chemical antecedents [[–> i.e. by blind, undirected forces of chance and necessity]. Indeed, the ribozyme engineering and pre-biotic simulation experiments that Professor Falk commends to my attention actually lend additional inductive support to this generalization. On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information. That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process. Thus, the discovery of functionally specified, digitally encoded information along the spine of DNA, provides compelling positive evidence of the activity of a prior designing intelligence. This conclusion is not based upon what we don’t know. It is based upon what we do know from our uniform experience about the cause and effect structure of the world—specifically, what we know about what does, and does not, have the power to produce large amounts of specified information . . . .

[[In conclusion,] it needs to be noted that the [[now commonly asserted and imposed limiting rule on scientific knowledge, the] principle of methodological naturalism [[ that scientific explanations may only infer to “natural[[istic] causes”] is an arbitrary philosophical assumption, not a principle that can be established or justified by scientific observation itself. Others of us, having long ago seen the pattern in pre-biotic simulation experiments, to say nothing of the clear testimony of thousands of years of human experience, have decided to move on. We see in the information-rich structure of life a clear indicator of intelligent activity and have begun to investigate living systems accordingly. If, by Professor Falk’s definition, that makes us philosophers rather than scientists, then so be it. But I suspect that the shoe is now, instead, firmly on the other foot. [[Meyer, Stephen C: Response to Darrel Falk’s Review of Signature in the Cell, SITC web site, 2009. (Emphases and parentheses added.)]

Let me focus attention on the highlighted:

First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals.

The only difference between this and what I have highlighted through the acronym FSCO/I, is that functionally specific organisation is similarly reducible to an informational string and is in this sense equivalent to it. Where, that is hardly news, AutoCAD has reigned supreme as an engineers design tool for decades now. Going back to 1973, Orgel in his early work on specified complexity, wrote:

. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . .

[HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [–> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant “wiring diagram” for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [–> so if the q’s to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [–> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]

So, the concept of reducing functional organisation to a description on a string of y/n structured questions — a bit string in some description language — is hardly news, nor is it something I came up with. Where obviously Orgel is speaking to FUNCTIONAL specificity, so that is not new either.

Likewise, search spaces or config spaces is a simple reflection of the phase space concept of statistical thermodynamics.

Dembski’s remarks are also significant, here from NFL:

p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology.

I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity, or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . .

Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism’s subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites:

Wouters, p. 148: “globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms,”

Behe, p. 148: “minimal function of biochemical systems,”

Dawkins, pp. 148 – 9: “Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction.”

On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel’s famous remark from 1973, which exactly cited reads:

In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .

And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”] . . .”

p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”

So, the problem of refusal to attend to readily available, evidence or even evidence put in front of objectors to design theory is significant and clear.

What it in the end reflects as a case of clinging to fallacies and myths in the teeth of correction for years on end, is the weakness of the case being made against design by its persistent objectors.

Which is itself highly significant.>>

Now, let us discuss, duly noting the highlighted and emphasised. END

Comments
KF: "Where, if you think my handle is bad, ponder the bitter history lessons written into my personal name!" Could you let us know what those lessons might be?timothya
March 7, 2017
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@KF 1) You are definitely making up the etymology of "acrostic" - there is no doubt about its origin as "acros" + "stikhos". You try to reanalyse this into "acros" + "ic", an interesting example of folk etymology. I gave you the link to the OED, where you can see that "acrostic" was used as a noun first! 2) I repeat: "acrostic" isn't just the adjective to "acros" - btw, that rather would be "acric". You invented that meaning, and now you insist that it is commonly used. It is not! 3) I called you moniker clumsy as it should be "kairofocus" or perhaps "kaironfocus" (it isn't acrospolis, is it?) 4) I'll end with the immortal words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "Orloog
March 7, 2017
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Orloog (et al), I see you wish to prolong a distractive tangent and we can see the usual trend to turn it into an ad hominem, atmosphere-poisoning attack. Now, first, I am NOT making up an etymology. I have reported on what should be a readily acknowledged longstanding acknowledged fact regarding what we could term "academic coinage." A fact that leaves "fossils" in the terms, which we may readily inspect and which are accessible to all. There are words commonly used in academic related contexts that are and were routinely assembled from esp. Greek antecedents. In relation to Acros as I highlighted long since on historically significant cases, Acros + Polis --> Acropolis, Athens. Acros + Corinth --> Acrocorinth. In the case of Jerusalem, in a Hebrew-Aramaic culture, Greek invaders built a citadel which was known as the Acra which played a key part in the rise of the Hasmoneans, thus we see a loan word. In another case, in 1 Cor 6, Paul seems to have created a term based on Leviticus as rendered in Septuagint: arsenocoitai. As a result, we should be open to the obvious in looking at academic words. The ending -ic is commonly to be found with adjectives and adjectives in as loose a language as English, tend to become nouns. (And yes, I saw the same derivation you noted in the dictionaries. With all due respect to the learned authors, they are not telling the whole story as there are other socio-linguistic dynamics at work, pardon as follows.) That is why I dared suggest that Acrostic Poem likely became simply Acrostic, a long time since. I am aware of the construction of acrostic from stichos, but note that it is a well known pattern that words of similar form have influence on how meanings are taken. One of the bugs/features of English as a language. That Acrostic was chosen invites the question of influences on meaning from closely resembling suffixes, roots etc. Indeed, in my native land, a whole folk philosophy has grown out of the aural resemblance between "I" and "eye,' leading to "I-man." The one who is, and who sees in a world of pain and exile, Babylon. (And yes the famous song on the psalm reflects that philosophy.) A philosophy that cannot simply be brushed aside as ignorant conflation of words that have different meanings. Money has likewise become "dun-ny," in an ironic pun that utilises a rhyme. As for kairos + focus, there is a world of meaning compressed there, and your sneer is of no consequence, thank you. Likewise, we readily see that Acros + -onym yields a contracted form acronym, equivalent to acrostic name. (I have it on not only memory of my teachers but also painful memories of required memorisation of roots, prefixes and suffixes in lessons and texts -- or even online as I checked yesterday between work assignments and power cuts, that taking apart such words based on their components is reasonable praxis. [A machine seized up yesterday morning, they are hoping to get a long delayed new genset in synch to restore a stable grid. And yes, this is loaded with further examples from the sci-tech world. English is maybe the most flexible major language, which needs to be recognised as a bug/feature.]) I put it to you, also, that there is no need to make a mountain out of a molehill of dictionaries [including even the famous OED] if I chose to use -ic in a readily understood context, in its obvious adjectival sense. I appreciate that you are concerned over language, but this should not be used as an in the end toxic distraction. English is exceptionally loose and/or flexible. And, please, at this time of pivotal decision for our civilisation, this rhetorically strategic moment, let us focus as a general or admiral would, on the key dangers and opportunities. (Yes, all of that is loaded into that "clumsy" handle. Where, if you think my handle is bad, ponder the bitter history lessons written into my personal name!) KF PS: Assume I am utterly in the wrong on using Acrostic in adjectival sense. What relevance is that to FSCO/I apart from distraction? Nil.kairosfocus
March 7, 2017
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Upright Biped: "This type of organization has a very specific set of physical characteristics that uniquely identify it among all other physical systems. Your mineral example demonstrates none of those characteristics." Rubbish. Chalconatronite clearly is uniquely specified by its physical characteristics. Where did those characteristics come from? Natural causes that generated new and increased complexity? Or an intelligent agent when they were formed? Would you like to explain how the kestrel [SNIP- family forum TA, and broken window theory, consider yourself on notice] was intelligently injected into the mineral? The Famous Onlookers await your explanation.timothya
March 7, 2017
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CR, I've read your second paper, now can you answer my question? "please summarize the number of different physical constraints required to interpret the “recipe” and the number of representations within that “recipe” that are required to describe the construction of the constraints?"Upright BiPed
March 6, 2017
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Frankly I can't get worked up over rvb8's, oorlog's, DaveS' and others' bone of contention over whether FSCO/I is an acronym or an acrostic. It is like arguing over the best way to market numerology, phrenology or astrology.Armand Jacks
March 6, 2017
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@UB Sounds like you're looking for this paper on information theory.
We present a theory of information expressed solely in terms of which transformations of physical systems are possible and which are impossible - i.e. in constructor-theoretic terms. Although it includes conjectured laws of physics that are directly about information, independently of the details of particular physical instantiations, it does not regard information as an a priori mathematical or logical concept, but as something whose nature and properties are determined by the laws of physics alone. It does not suffer from the circularity at the foundations of existing information theory (namely that information and distinguishability are each defined in terms of the other). It explains the relationship between classical and quantum information, and reveals the single, constructor-theoretic property underlying the most distinctive phenomena associated with the latter, including the lack of in-principle distinguishability of some states, the impossibility of cloning, the existence of pairs of variables that cannot simultaneously have sharp values, the fact that measurement processes can be both deterministic and unpredictable, the irreducible perturbation caused by measurement, and entanglement (locally inaccessible information).
And this paper on the contractor theoretic theory of life
Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory explains how the appearance of purposive design in the sophisticated adaptations of living organisms can have come about without their intentionally being designed. The explanation relies crucially on the possibility of certain physical processes: mainly, gene replication and natural selection. In this paper I show that for those processes to be possible without the design of biological adaptations being encoded in the laws of physics, those laws must have certain other properties. The theory of what these properties are is not part of evolution theory proper, and has not been developed, yet without it the neo-Darwinian theory does not fully achieve its purpose of explaining the appearance of design. To this end I apply Constructor Theory's new mode of explanation to provide an exact formulation of the appearance of design, of no-design laws, and of the logic of self-reproduction and natural selection, within fundamental physics. I conclude that self-reproduction, replication and natural selection are possible under no-design laws, the only non-trivial condition being that they allow digital information to be physically instantiated. This has an exact characterisation in the constructor theory of information. I also show that under no-design laws an accurate replicator requires the existence of a "vehicle" constituting, together with the replicator, a self-reproducer.
critical rationalist
March 6, 2017
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"stubborn" That's rich. Really. Allow me to offer you some unsolicited advice. Go find yourself a 3x5 index card and a good sharp pencil, and write down the naked honest answer to the following question: Was I truly confused by the meaning Kairos conveyed?" After you write "No", you can then fold up that card and carry it around with you as you go through life demanding adherence in "your area of expertise" from the other 7 billion of us. And if you ever become frustrated -- particularly in situations where your area of expertise isn't even the topic on the table -- you can take out your card and contemplate it. Perhaps you'll come up with your own answer to your question.Upright BiPed
March 6, 2017
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Orloog, I took note of KF's use of acrostic in stead of acronym. To me it was a triviality. It had no bearing on what he was saying, in my view, so I read past it and made the adjustment as I so often do to get past typos and such. No big deal. You, and others, want to focus on minutia and ignore the main point, altogether. Regarding "why should I trust his conclusions in other are?" You are engaging in a form of the genetic fallacy. Furthermore, KF has asked no one to "trust his conclusions" about this topic whether it be an acrostic or an acronym or a widget. In point of fact, KF has many times laid out his reasoning to his conclusion in a detailed, linear, point by point manner. If you do not agree with his conclusion, prey tell, why? Where is his chain of reasoning broken. Do you need some clarification on his part about a point or two. What does it take to get you people to focus? If, to you all, the most important aspect of KF's post was the use of the word acrostic, you have proven to me that you all are really not serious about addressing the real points of this debate at all. Stephen PS You can all ignore me, now, while we fight about whether I should have used "past" or "passed" in my first paragraph. I am sure opinions will vary and it is so, so important to achieve clarity that this particular needs to be resolved before the main point can be properly addressed. PPS For those who are figure of speech challenged, that PS was sarcasm. Need to avoid a further distraction, so I am stating that explicitly for your benefit.SteRusJon
March 6, 2017
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If someone is so stubbornly wrong in my area of expertise, why should I trust his conclusions in other areas?Orloog
March 6, 2017
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I like Greek and Latin
Really. I like building slot-loaded dipoles and walks on the beach. So what? The pedantry over words is still a completely pointless distraction.Upright BiPed
March 6, 2017
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@UBP: I like Greek and Latin, so, yes, really....Orloog
March 6, 2017
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good grief, really? let it go, man If you need something to get worked up about, try helping CR decide how many non-integrable constraints it takes to specify the primeval translation apparatus.Upright BiPed
March 6, 2017
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what a pity, Greek characters are displayed as question marks...Orloog
March 6, 2017
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@KF: I should have been forewarned by the clumsy compound noun which you use as a moniker. So, let's have a look at your comment #55: UB, dead right. And the continued side-tracking speaks glaringly of that which must not be named. yes, it is just a minor subject, but one which sheds a light on your modus operandi -onym of course is a suffix meaning name. no problem with this sentence... Put acro + onym together, compress one o and we get acronym,... and this one is correct, too again, acrostic name which is exactly the function in view. and here you fail miserably: acrostic isn't the adjective to acros (?????)!!! Without any doubt, acrostic is a compound of ????? (akros) and ?????? (stikhos): put acro + stikhos together, compress the hos and we get acrostic While acronym means "heads of words", acrostic means "heads of lines". Your phrase "acrostic name" doesn't make sense in this context. PS: I learned Greek and Latin at school, and I'm informed about the basic techniques of creating compound nouns - heck, I'm German, it's our pasttime (just ask Heidegger...)Orloog
March 6, 2017
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@Florabama:
“But, but, but, your use of an acrostic is slightly off.” Really? That’s it?
No, for me, that is not longer the point of this tangent - I have a problem with KF making up an etymology of acrostic to bolster his quite unusual use of this word, i.e., as just the adjective for acro.Orloog
March 6, 2017
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UB, we actually see homeostasis with defences, metabolism with controlled intake and disposal of wastes, all coupled to the additionality of a von Neumann type kinematic self replication facility. Where, the processes are code centric, using text with algorithms carried out on molecular nanotech machines. Such things require very specific functional configurations of high complexity and information content. The search space challenge to get to that information blindly is a patent empirical supertask, not credibly feasible on the gamut of the observed cosmos. So, what we are seeing is grand question begging backed up by the fallacy of confident manner and an ideological takeover of key institutions. Such, in the end cannot stand. But it can do a lot of damage before the inevitable collapse occurs. KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2017
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The first cells were primitive replicators. They did not have to replicate with great precision because they did not need to compete with the level of accuracy in replicators we observe today.
This sentence is written in the unambiguous affirmative. "The first cells were primitive replicators". Additionally, there was "no need for precision", because they did not have to compete against more precise replicators. Poof! Done! All assumptions have been demonstrated. good grief CR, since you apparently know all this to be true, then will you please summarize the number of different physical constraints required to interpret the “recipe” and the number of representations within that “recipe” that are required to describe the construction of the constraints? (This is not a wild-eyed request, after all, we can do this for modern cells). 0nly under such an analysis could you possibly even begin to gauge the level of accuracy necessary to create the (required) semantic closure. You see, it wasn’t other critters that the original cell had to overcome, it was the necessity of describing the translation apparatus in a transcribable memory, and being able to successfully interpret the description. That’s how the cell cycle works. So can you provide any of this data? Of course not. This is because constructor theory provides no answers to any of the central issues, and in doing so, becomes the perfect theory for people like yourself. At any point where an actually explanation and data are needed, the “theory” merely kicks in the ludicrous (and non-falsifiable) assumption that unless we can state a law that prohibits a thing, then that thing must have happened the way we assume it did. Really? Give it a rest.Upright BiPed
March 6, 2017
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CR
Organisms are replicators. The first cells were primitive replicators. They did not have to replicate with great precision because they did not need to compete with the level of accuracy in replicators we observe today. In fact, NASA has a specific department to prevent this very thing from happening in off world environments.
During replication DNA mutates. How would these early cell survive if their DNA was continually breaking down?bill cole
March 6, 2017
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CR, how does mind result in the typing of the text of your comment just now? How is this relevant to the point that we know intelligent agents exist, that we do not exhaust the possibilities and that there are observable characteristics such as FSCO/I that are reliable indicators of design as cause. This is more than enough to effect a revolution in origins science already, and without taking on a world of further issues that are not germane to what is already clearly seen. KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2017
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Why doesn't a "highly inaccurate, non-purposive construction" fall completely apart? In order for something to continue to exist homeostasis needs to be fine-tuned.Origenes
March 6, 2017
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critical rationalist @59: Yes, it all sounds so easy. As long as we don't actually look into the details or ask any hard questions. The initial question isn't whether early cells self-replicated. The question is how early cells could come into existence with a capability of self-replication. And this is just wishful thinking, again based on a failure to actually look at what is required for self-replication: "They did not have to replicate with great precision . . ." There is no basis for this claim. There is no reason for thinking it is true, other than the fact that it supports a materialistic narrative. -----
The early history of evolution is, in constructor-theoretic terms, a lengthy, highly inaccurate, non-purposive construction that eventually produced knowledge-bearing recipes out of elementary things containing none. These elementary things are simple chemicals such as short RNA strands, which can perform only low-fidelity replication, and so do not bear the appearance of design, and are therefore allowed to exist in a pre-biotic environment governed by no-design laws.
What an absolute load of bunk! Take some time to think through what is required for your primitive cells to exist in a real-world environment and to self-replicate. Then these facile, naive, made-up stories about "highly-inaccurate, non-purposive" chemicals accidentally bumping into each other to form living cells won't seem so impressive to you. The level of gullibility one would have to embrace to believe stuff like this "constructor theory," is truly remarkable.Eric Anderson
March 6, 2017
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On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information. That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process
And how does "mind" result in those things in human designers? What is the theory behind how human knowege grows? This argument assumes we know nothing about it and haven't made any progress on the issue for, thousands of years. If one is making the appeal, every human designer we have observed is a complex, knowege laden entitiy, that has a complex material brain, which itself would need to be explained, etc.critical rationalist
March 6, 2017
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@UB. Organisms are replicators. The first cells were primitive replicators. They did not have to replicate with great precision because they did not need to compete with the level of accuracy in replicators we observe today. In fact, NASA has a specific department to prevent this very thing from happening in off world environments. From this article on the constructor theory of life
The early history of evolution is, in constructor-theoretic terms, a lengthy, highly inaccurate, non-purposive construction that eventually produced knowledge-bearing recipes out of elementary things containing none. These elementary things are simple chemicals such as short RNA strands, which can perform only low-fidelity replication, and so do not bear the appearance of design, and are therefore allowed to exist in a pre-biotic environment governed by no-design laws.
critical rationalist
March 6, 2017
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"But, but, but, your use of an acrostic is slightly off." Really? That's it? That's all the materialists can come up with? Seriously? Hmmmmn! Perhaps this explains why Neo-Darwinism is crumbling away.Florabama
March 6, 2017
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On complexity. From the beginning, Dembski spoke of odds 1 in 10^150 as marking a reliability threshold. I was not comfortable with that for a gamut beyond sol system and squared its bit form, 500 bits --> 1,000 bits. 500 bits specifies 3.27*10^150 and 1,000 bits 1.07*10^301 possibilities, thus measures of complexity and haystack size to be searched. At such thresholds sol system and observed cosmos scope searches do not have resources to be more than negligible by contrast, so isolated islands of function are effectively impossible on blind search. Down that road, active, intelligently injected information as Dembski and Marks later discussed. Objectors simply have not done basic homework. KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2017
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UB @ 51: “How did the first cell become specified before the organization required to specify something?” Excellent question. Has anyone responded to this yet?Truth Will Set You Free
March 6, 2017
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UB, dead right. And the continued side-tracking speaks glaringly of that which must not be named. -onym of course is a suffix meaning name. Put acro + onym together, compress one o and we get acronym, again, acrostic name which is exactly the function in view. KF PS: I add, that in former years educated people studied Latin and Greek. It was natural for them to construct words they needed from components from those languages, maybe with a bit of modding to smoothen out. We often saw that with key scientific terms. A good, fairly familiar case in point is the metric system of units. Of course they did things like putting in names of people such as Ohm or Joule etc.kairosfocus
March 6, 2017
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Orloog,
At the beginning...
At the beginning this was taking a pot shot at a particular opponent who happens to have empirical facts as his resource. It was the same thing in the middle, and the same at the end.Upright BiPed
March 6, 2017
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KF,
DS, sigh.
Not that I don't trust your morphological analysis, but Orloog quotes:
a series of lines or verses in which the first, last, or other particular letters when taken in order spell out a word, phrase, etc.
I'm guessing that if I wrote a poem where the first letters/characters of the lines were F, S, C, O, /, I, and then claimed it was an acrostic, I would (rightly) be accused of stretching the meaning of "acrostic" far beyond what is reasonable.daveS
March 6, 2017
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