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RVB8 and the refusal to mark the difference between description and invention

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. . . (of the concept, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I)


Sometimes, a longstanding objector here at UD — such as RVB8 — inadvertently reveals just how weak the objections to the design inference are by persistently clinging to long since cogently answered objections. This phenomenon of ideology triumphing over evident reality is worth highlighting as a headlined post illustrating darwinist rhetorical stratagems and habits.

Here is RVB8 in a comment in the current Steve Fuller thread:

RVB8, 36: >> for ID or Creationism, I can get the information direct from the creators of the terminology. Dembski for Specified Complexity, Kairos for his invention of FSCO/I, and Behe for Irreducible Complexity.>>

As it seems necessary to set a pronunciation, the acronym FSCO/I shall henceforth be pronounced “fish-koi” (where happily, koi are produced by artificial selection, a form of ID too often misused as a proxy for the alleged powers of culling out by differential reproductive success in the wild)

For a long time, he and others of like ilk have tried to suggest that as I have championed the acrostic summary FSCO/I, the concept I am pointing to is a dubious novelty that has not been tested through peer review or the like and can be safely set aside. In fact, it is simply acknowledging that specified complexity is both organisational and informational, and that in many contexts it is specified in the context of requisites of function through multiple coupled parts. Text such as in this post shows a simple form of such a structure, S-T-R-I-N-G-S.

Where of course, memorably, Crick classically pointed out to his son Michael on March 19, 1953 as follows, regarding DNA as text:

Crick’s letter

Subsequently, that code was elucidated (here in the mRNA, transcribed form):

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins and specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

Likewise a process flow network is an expression of FSCO/I, e.g. an oil refinery:

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

This case is much simpler than the elucidated biochemistry process flow metabolic reaction network of the living cell:

I have also often illustrated FSCO/I in the form of functional organisation through a drawing of an ABU 6500 C3 reel (which I safely presume came about through using AutoCAD or the like):

All of this is of course very directly similar to something like protein synthesis [top left in the cell’s biochem outline], which involves both text strings and functionally specific highly complex organisation:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

In short, FSCO/I is real, relevant and patently descriptive, both of the technological world and the biological world. This demands an adequate causal explanation, and the only serious explanation on the table that is empirically warranted is, design.

As the text of this post illustrates, and as the text of objector comments to come will further inadvertently illustrate.

Now, I responded at no 37, as follows:

KF, 37: >>Unfortunately, your choice of speaking in terms of “invention” of FSCO/I speaks volumes on your now regrettably habitual refusal to acknowledge phenomena that are right in front of you. As in, a descriptive label acknowledges a phenomenon, it does not invent it.

Doubtless [and on long track record], you think that is a clever way to dismiss something you don’t wish to consider.

This pattern makes your rhetoric into a case in point of the sociological, ideological reaction to the design inference on tested sign. So, I now respond, by way of addressing a case of a problem of sustained unresponsiveness to evidence.

However, it only reveals that you are being selectively hyperskeptical and dismissive through the fallacy of the closed, ideologised, indoctrinated, hostile mind.

I suggest you need to think again.

As a start, look at your own comment, which is text. To wit, a s-t-r-i-n-g of 1943 ASCII characters, at 7 bits per character, indicating a config space of 2^[7 * 1943) possibilities. That is, a space with 2.037*10^4094 cells.

The atomic and temporal resources of our whole observed cosmos, running at 1 search per each of 10^80 atoms, at 10^12 – 10^14 searches per s [a fast chem reaction rate] for 10^17 s [time since big bang, approx.] could not search more than 10^111 cells, a negligibly small fraction. That is, the config space search challenge is real, there is not enough resource to search more than a negligibly small fraction of the haystack blindly. (and the notion sometimes put, of somehow having a golden search runs into the fact that searches are subsets, so search for a golden search comes from the power set of the direct config space, of order here 2^[10^4094]. That is, it is exponentially harder.)

How then did your text string come to be? By a much more powerful means: you as an intelligent and knowledgeable agent exerted intelligently directed configuration to compose a text in English.

That is why, routinely, when you see or I see text of significant size in English, we confidently and rightly infer to design.

As a simple extension, a 3-d object such as an Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel is describable, in terms of bit strings in a description language, so functional organisation is reducible to an informational equivalent. Discussion on strings is WLOG.

In terms of the living cell, we can simply point to the copious algorithmic TEXT in DNA, which directly fits with the textual search challenge issue. There is no empirically warranted blind chance and mechanical necessity mechanism that can plausibly account for it. We have every epistemic and inductive reasoning right to see that the FSCO/I in the cell is best explained as a result of design.

That twerdun, which comes before whodunit.

As for, oh it’s some readily scorned IDiot on a blog, I suggest you would do better to ponder this from Stephen Meyer:

The central argument of my book [= Signature in the Cell] is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .

The central problem facing origin-of-life researchers is neither the synthesis of pre-biotic building blocks (which Sutherland’s work addresses) or even the synthesis of a self-replicating RNA molecule (the plausibility of which Joyce and Tracey’s work seeks to establish, albeit unsuccessfully . . . [[Meyer gives details in the linked page]). Instead, the fundamental problem is getting the chemical building blocks to arrange themselves into the large information-bearing molecules (whether DNA or RNA) . . . .

For nearly sixty years origin-of-life researchers have attempted to use pre-biotic simulation experiments to find a plausible pathway by which life might have arisen from simpler non-living chemicals, thereby providing support for chemical evolutionary theory. While these experiments have occasionally yielded interesting insights about the conditions under which certain reactions will or won’t produce the various small molecule constituents of larger bio-macromolecules, they have shed no light on how the information in these larger macromolecules (particularly in DNA and RNA) could have arisen. Nor should this be surprising in light of what we have long known about the chemical structure of DNA and RNA. As I show in Signature in the Cell, the chemical structures of DNA and RNA allow them to store information precisely because chemical affinities between their smaller molecular subunits do not determine the specific arrangements of the bases in the DNA and RNA molecules. Instead, the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) forms between the backbone and each one of the four bases, allowing any one of the bases to attach at any site along the backbone, in turn allowing an innumerable variety of different sequences. This chemical indeterminacy is precisely what permits DNA and RNA to function as information carriers. It also dooms attempts to account for the origin of the information—the precise sequencing of the bases—in these molecules as the result of deterministic chemical interactions . . . .

[[W]e now have a wealth of experience showing that what I call specified or functional information (especially if encoded in digital form) does not arise from purely physical or chemical antecedents [[–> i.e. by blind, undirected forces of chance and necessity]. Indeed, the ribozyme engineering and pre-biotic simulation experiments that Professor Falk commends to my attention actually lend additional inductive support to this generalization. On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information. That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process. Thus, the discovery of functionally specified, digitally encoded information along the spine of DNA, provides compelling positive evidence of the activity of a prior designing intelligence. This conclusion is not based upon what we don’t know. It is based upon what we do know from our uniform experience about the cause and effect structure of the world—specifically, what we know about what does, and does not, have the power to produce large amounts of specified information . . . .

[[In conclusion,] it needs to be noted that the [[now commonly asserted and imposed limiting rule on scientific knowledge, the] principle of methodological naturalism [[ that scientific explanations may only infer to “natural[[istic] causes”] is an arbitrary philosophical assumption, not a principle that can be established or justified by scientific observation itself. Others of us, having long ago seen the pattern in pre-biotic simulation experiments, to say nothing of the clear testimony of thousands of years of human experience, have decided to move on. We see in the information-rich structure of life a clear indicator of intelligent activity and have begun to investigate living systems accordingly. If, by Professor Falk’s definition, that makes us philosophers rather than scientists, then so be it. But I suspect that the shoe is now, instead, firmly on the other foot. [[Meyer, Stephen C: Response to Darrel Falk’s Review of Signature in the Cell, SITC web site, 2009. (Emphases and parentheses added.)]

Let me focus attention on the highlighted:

First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals.

The only difference between this and what I have highlighted through the acronym FSCO/I, is that functionally specific organisation is similarly reducible to an informational string and is in this sense equivalent to it. Where, that is hardly news, AutoCAD has reigned supreme as an engineers design tool for decades now. Going back to 1973, Orgel in his early work on specified complexity, wrote:

. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . .

[HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [–> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant “wiring diagram” for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [–> so if the q’s to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [–> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]

So, the concept of reducing functional organisation to a description on a string of y/n structured questions — a bit string in some description language — is hardly news, nor is it something I came up with. Where obviously Orgel is speaking to FUNCTIONAL specificity, so that is not new either.

Likewise, search spaces or config spaces is a simple reflection of the phase space concept of statistical thermodynamics.

Dembski’s remarks are also significant, here from NFL:

p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology.

I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity, or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . .

Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism’s subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites:

Wouters, p. 148: “globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms,”

Behe, p. 148: “minimal function of biochemical systems,”

Dawkins, pp. 148 – 9: “Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction.”

On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel’s famous remark from 1973, which exactly cited reads:

In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .

And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”] . . .”

p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”

So, the problem of refusal to attend to readily available, evidence or even evidence put in front of objectors to design theory is significant and clear.

What it in the end reflects as a case of clinging to fallacies and myths in the teeth of correction for years on end, is the weakness of the case being made against design by its persistent objectors.

Which is itself highly significant.>>

Now, let us discuss, duly noting the highlighted and emphasised. END

Comments
timothya: Well this is pretty remarkable for someone who has been around the debate for years. I am surprised that you still don't understand the design inference or how it works. Whether you agree that design can be reliably inferred is a separate matter. But you should at least understand the issues. Let's start back at square 1: Do you or do you not acknowledge that there is a difference between the information contained in the molecules making up your genome and the molecules making up a pile of inanimate dirt? Answer that question and then maybe there will be some basis for taking the next step in a rational discussion. ----- BTW, the fact that particles around the universe do not contain information by their mere existence has already been the topic of a detailed post in these pages. I can refer you to the post if you have a sincere interest, but it would be better for you to think through it yourself. Start with the above question and then we can go from there.Eric Anderson
March 4, 2017
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#15 Tim, the organization of the living cell establishes DNA as a genuine medium of information (i.e. heritable memory), which it then translates in order to specify how the proteins of the living system are to be individually constructed (so that they function inside the cell). This type of organization has a very specific set of physical characteristics that uniquely identify it among all other physical systems. Your mineral example demonstrates none of those characteristics. There are two general options at this point: One option is for me to explain these physical characteristics to you in this comment section, and perhaps give you some of the history behind the observations. This would require your engagement. (I unfortunately hold out little hope for that scenario). The other option is to give you a link to papers within the literature where scientists have described these systems. Judging by your response, you apparently have no interest in that option, which is your choice. If you intend to hold your position at all costs, there is nothing to stop you -- (that is, after all, what "at all costs" means).Upright BiPed
March 4, 2017
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tim and rv, it would seem, based on your view, quite easy to create life in the lab, so where is it? You have made it “crystal” clear, that all that’s required are a few minerals and some common chemical reactions, and “poof.” So where is it? Why are you two keeping the secret to yourselves? Here we are 150 years removed from Darwin and 60 years removed from Miller/Urey, and 50 years from landing on the moon, and we’re still waiting for the headline for something that’s as easy as growing a Donald Trump chia pet. Just pour a little water on it, right? When you tell the world, can I come to your Nobel acceptance party? Of course, you know (I think) that there’s complexity and then there’s complexity. Isn’t there a bit of difference between, throwing a deck of cards on the floor and throwing a deck of cards on the floor and getting four Royal Flushes? One is complex but non-informational (mineralization, pot holes, chemical reactions) the other represents a high degree of understandable, readable, meaningful information (the parts diagram of a fishing reel) AND an impossible probability to repeat via random chance. The point is not a complicated one, but it’s one you two, either out of ignorance or willful obtuseness (I vote for willful obtuseness) refuse to acknowledge, but that is absolutely typical of those with a religious commitment to materialism. It makes you dishonest, and that is frustrating. What is seen in the code of R/DNA and the machinery of the cell is both impossible from a chance probability standpoint and represents understandable, readable, meaningful, SPECIFIED information. You don’t have to become an evangelical Christian to acknowledge this fact, but you do have to acknowledge it or be transparently dishonest and forever brand yourself as someone for whom the science really doesn’t matter. The specified complexity of the machinery of the cell, is overwhelming evidence for the design of life, and yet you dismiss it without the slightest acknowledgment of the monumental problem this represents for your worldview, and without the first substantial rebuttal except to point to trivial, non-informational chemical reactions and crystallization which is like saying that since you can jump two feet, you can jump to Jupiter. Ironically, your worldview is being obliterated by the science you claim to hold in the highest regard. The Designer does have a sense of humor.Florabama
March 4, 2017
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You are asking the wrong person. Talk to Upright Biped, he is the one who claims that minerals contain no information. My rather light-hearted comment simply pointed to the fact that he doesn't understand what a mineral actually is.timothya
March 4, 2017
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timothya said:
Now explain to your confrères why physical systems of any kind contain no information in the first place.
Surely I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that an encyclopedia or a computer hard drive contains no information?William J Murray
March 4, 2017
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Eric Anderson: "I should add that it isn’t even clear the minerals you refer to are complex to the extent we are interested in for design purposes. Certainly as individual minerals they are not." This is interesting. Are you saying that the design inference only works above a certain level of "complexity". I have noticed that KF, Stephen Meyer et al., when pushed, resort to qualifiers on complexity such as "significant" or "large". These are quantitative arguments, as is yours. So would you like to put a number on what "to an extent" is? Or significant? Or large?timothya
March 4, 2017
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Eric Anderson: "Functional in what sense?" Functional in the mathematical sense. Any function applied to a set of inputs will have a single, determinate output. In this case, chalconatronite.timothya
March 4, 2017
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Upright Biped: "The minerals you speak of contain no information in the first place". In a backhanded way you have hit the nail on the head. Since organic chemicals are fundamentally the same as inorganic ones (being made of atoms), the same must be true of them. Now explain to your confrères why physical systems of any kind contain no information in the first place.timothya
March 4, 2017
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Tim,
Do these minerals represent more FSCO/I in the world, or less, or no change?
The minerals you speak of contain no information in the first place, and that obviously answers your question. Information requires a material substrate (i.e. a medium of information) operating within a system that can interpret the arrangement of the medium. Such systems are identifiable by their physical characteristics. Your example demonstrates precisely none of the necessary material conditions of information. I would encourage you to do some reading and acquaint yourself with the physical properties required. Setting the ID issue completely aside, there's no reason for you to fundamentally misunderstand the topic you are asking about. Here's a good place to start, it's dedicated to this specific question: Biosemiosis: BibliographyUpright BiPed
March 4, 2017
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EA, thanks. KFkairosfocus
March 3, 2017
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TA & RVB8: You have both been objectors to design theory in and about UD for quite some time, years I believe. Your reactions above are therefore astonishingly revealing as to the way in which the very concept of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information is being resisted. Resisted in ways that are so intellectually irresponsible and so dismissive of duties of care to truth and simple fairness that they have to be explained in terms of the fallacy of the closed, indoctrinated, hostile mind. Sad, surely you can do a lot better than this. FYI, the distinction between crystallisation, random tars etc and formation of the functionally specific, organised molecules of life is not some dubious novelty brought up by IDiots on some blog. Instead, it is a foundational fact. D/RNA and proteins (including enzymes) -- key molecules of the cell familiar to anyone who has done just one year of High School biology since what, the 1960's or 70's [which would be just about any person of at least average intelligence in our civilisation] -- are polymers. But they are not like the brute-force polymers found in our common plastics. They are assembled monomer by monomer in a profoundly informational manner through cellular processes that are of algorithmic character. D/RNA uses a templating process that uses a prong-height complementarity in side branches to chain strings that in many cases store information . . . comparable to the prongs on keys for a Yale type lock. Messenger RNA is often subjected to editing. When it comes to protein synthesis, there is code-based, step by step assembly as is highlighted in the OP. This involves starting, elongation in functionally organised order (function being effected through onward folding, agglomeration and activation), termination, in the ribosome. That is, we are discussing an automated numerically controlled machine process carried out using molecular nanotech. (That fact alone should give you sobering pause; that it does not speaks sad volumes.) These facts are the background for famed OOL researcher Leslie Orgel's remarks cited in the OP. But first, let me roll forward about six years to Wicken's related remarks:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [[“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
Crystals, whether the many types long known or those that have come about through say corrosion of ancient Egyptian statues in museum drawers, simply are not assembled like proteins or templated, transcribed and edited like D/RNA. That someone would imagine it scores rhetorical points to try to push the two together and demand showing "working" on the difference speaks volumes about the underlying ignorance and hostile closed mindedness at work. Let me clip the first part from Orgel in 1973, as appears in the OP, that is, right in front of you both:
. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189. That seminal book sits next to me as I type and you would find it instructive to read what was understood over forty years past.]
At this point, I have to assume that if you insist on conflating crystal formation with the creation and use of organised informational polymers such as we see in the cell, it is because your position is so weak that it demands that sort of rhetoric. The crude reference to bigger is better and appeal to Freud is even worse. It reveals that you, RVB8, are utterly ignorant of and contemptuous about the very basics of digital -- discrete state -- technology and the linked logic of structure and quantity [i.e. mathematics]. Let me go back to binary [= two-state digital] logic 001. Something like a switch or a voltage in a computer chip can be in two distinct states. When we chain such elements in clusters or strings, it allows us to represent information because we can set up a protocol, a code that assigns meaningful values to particular configurations of elements. Typically, we use On/Off, North/South, Hi/Lo, 1/0. One binary digit element [= bit] can take up two values, 1, or 0. Two, can take up four, as for each state of the first digit, say A, there are two possibilities for the second, B: AB = 00, 01, 10, 11. For three, there are eight states: 000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111. Four, give sixteen, and so forth, in general for n binary digits, there are 2^n states. For things that have 3 states, that would by the same logic be 3^n; for 4-state elements such as in D/RNA, 4^n; for ten -state elements, 10^n; for 27-state elements [one mor5e for the space between words], 27^n; for the ASCII code used in digital computers [even when embedded in UNICODE], 128^n. This means that there is a definable abstract space for possibilities, such as we see in the table for the genetic code in the OP. Distinct states can be assigned meaningful values in accord with a code, as the Genetic code shows, cf. said table in the OP. In a digital age, we commonly see information measured in bits, which in effect says that this file uses XX number of two-state elements. We do not hear RVB8 and ilk trying to ridicule that usage. I suspect, they lack awareness of the under-pinnings. This then rapidly leads to the point made by Orgel, as further cited in the OP but obviously brushed aside in the attempt to make cheap, inappropriately suggestive rhetorical points [I will come back to this]:
Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [–> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant “wiring diagram” for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [–> so if the q’s to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [–> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . .
In short, we see that the scope of a search space grows exponentially with the number of relevant discrete state elements used. Within such spaces, we observe that there are clusters of functional forms, such as the text of comments in this thread. Can such be arrived at by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity in a search type process? For simple cases involving only a few elements in the cluster, that is plausible. But for functionally organised entities such as proteins, D/RNA, fishing reels, oil refineries and living cells, no. As, the space of possibilities grows exponentially with number of elements in the cluster. Consequently, search challenge grows, equally exponentially. For bits, at 500 bits there are 3.27*10^150 possibilities. For 1,000 bits, that rises to 1.07*10^301. These are large numbers, the atomic and temporal resources of our sol system and our observed cosmos -- the only actually observed cosmos -- would be exhausted before we were to get to as much as searching one straw in an impossibly large haystack. In short, such numbers render blind chance and/or mechanical necessity irrelevant as means of accessing such islands of organised function of the types seen with D/RNA, proteins, fishing reels and oil refineries. No significant portion of the space of possibilities can be searched to make it even reasonable to suggest that blind search can hit on a happy result. Search for a golden search goes to the next level of exponentiation, and that is even worse. RVB8, that is the reality you obviously cannot face, even after years in which it has been pointed out to you again and again. Instead of responsibly re-thinking, that something may be wrong with the scheme of thought you prefer, you resorted to crude suggestiveness. That utter irresponsibility simply discredits you further. I suggest to you that it is also borderline in terms of appropriate behaviour in a forum like this one. I must ask you to cease and desist from such crudities in future. All you have managed to do is to inadvertently underscore how weak your objections tot he design inference on FSCO/I are. The koi fish are looking at you and with their oh so dignified poise, they shake their heads sadly. KFkairosfocus
March 3, 2017
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I should add that it isn't even clear the minerals you refer to are complex to the extent we are interested in for design purposes. Certainly as individual minerals they are not. Even if we wanted to argue that a large group of them constitutes some kind of complex structure, then see #10 above.Eric Anderson
March 3, 2017
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timothya @6:
On the face of it, these appear to be cases of undirected chemical processes generating additional complexity.
Undirected processes can result in complexity. It happens all the time. That is not even the issue on the table. Yes, chemicals (reagants) react with each other and form products of the chemical reaction. So? That has absolutely nothing to do with specified complexity, with information-rich systems, with the requirements for the origin and maintenance of living systems.
The minerals are functional, specified, certainly have more complex organisation than their substrate materials, and could presumably be represented in digital form.
Functional in what sense? In that they will react with something? Again, so what? Every chemical does that. They certainly aren't specified. Anything can be described in a symbolic language, including in digital form. There is a world of difference between something that contains information and the fact that we can describe every physical object using information.Eric Anderson
March 3, 2017
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Forget it 't', the best way I can describe this kind of post is only by using outdated Freudian language. Which amazingly enough, in the case of Kairos and to a large extent BA77, doesn't seem to be so much outdated, as damn revealing; if it's bigger and longer, it's better. Filling the post with a rebuttal of a short point I made is hubrous in the extreme, and also points to very thin skin. I have been mocked and called an idiot here, and worse, but I don't care, honestly go ahead and insult me. The reason I don't care is exactly the same reason I don't care if a five year old mocks me; they're five! I said, the acronyms produced by Kairos (FSCO/I), Behe (ID), and Dembski (SC), are the best evidence for the thinking of IDers, and their fellow travellers. Is that wrong? Where should I go? Talkorigins? Though I must admit the description of these acronyms at 'Talk' is much easier to understand than Kairos's efforts, or BA's efforts. They produce yards of words but refuse to do the fieldwork, (Tiktalik and umpteen others), or the Laboratory work, (Richard Lenski and his patient brilliance), or just plain good peer reviewed writing, (I suppose if you publish in the ICR Journal, or AIG Journal it does give a warm glow of seeing your name in print in a sciency sounding rag.) I suggest Kairos take his groundsqueeking work to an open forum, 'theskepticalzone' perhaps, where his ilk have always been allowed to rant.rvb8
March 3, 2017
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Your non-answer is noted. Since biological processes are fundamentally chemical and physical, then it is reasonable to assume that their representation in FSCO/I form can also be applied to inorganic systems. Hence the question. What is your answer? By the way, mineralogical processes most certainly can be represented algorithmically - in fact that is pretty much a description of what mineralogy is.timothya
March 3, 2017
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TA, the formation of minerals is not the writing of text that functions in an algorithmic information system. Which is what we find with DNA. Chemical reactions forming minerals such as "an Egyptian statue at the bottom of a museum drawer . . . [with] a blue coating on the statue; . . . [which] turned out to be a new mineral called Chalconatronite" are expressions of chemical reaction and crystallisation. Back in 1973 Leslie Orgel, noted OOL researcher highlighted the material difference between such and what we find in the living cell. As was already cited in the OP. For one aspect, crystallisation is a process of mechanical necessity, it is not going to exhibit the freedom required to store significant information, as say we see with protein synthesis, where the connexion from DNA codon to AA is set by loading enzymes for tRNA that load a particular AA to a particular CCA tip based on the conformation of the tRNA and the code, not mechanical necessity. Indeed, dialects exist and codons have been reprogrammed. Indeed, additional codon-AA pairings have been created. Information storage needs high contingency and protocols that set up codes, which cannot be mechanically forced. In short, a distraction not a cogent response on your part. You inadvertently underscore the force of the point. You cannot show FSCO/I by blind chance and mechanical necessity, you know there are trillions of cases of FSCO/I by design, so you tried to make up a puzzle and distractively shift the burden of warrant. Fail. KFkairosfocus
March 3, 2017
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KF quotes Meyer: "First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals." [Bolden for emphasis] Here is an interesting article about novel minerals: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-02/human-activity-helps-create-hundreds-of-new-minerals/8319026 On the face of it, these appear to be cases of undirected chemical processes generating additional complexity. The minerals are functional, specified, certainly have more complex organisation than their substrate materials, and could presumably be represented in digital form. Do these minerals represent more FSCO/I in the world, or less, or no change? Show your work.timothya
March 3, 2017
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Excellent work, KF. Impressive! That said, don't expect much from rvb8 and his ilk. Bad soil.Truth Will Set You Free
March 3, 2017
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PPS: I have updated the OP to illustrate FSCO/I as fish-koi.kairosfocus
March 3, 2017
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Bob, Strike two -- playground rhetoric. Respond substantially, please i/l/o OP or leave the thread. KF PS: I clip Wiki from top of a Google, by way of pointing out:
An acronym is a word or name formed as an abbreviation from the initial components in a phrase or a word, usually individual letters (as in NATO or laser) and sometimes syllables (as in Benelux). Acronym - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym
--> The issue would be pronouncing FSCO/I, and "fish-koi" would readily work. (Koi are beautiful fish and are produced by -- intelligent design, through targetted breeding.) --> Note, Merriam Webster:
Definition of acronym : a word (such as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term; also : an abbreviation (such as FBI) formed from initial letters : initialism acronymicplay ?a-kr?-?ni-mik adjective acronymicallyplay -mi-k(?-)l? adverb
kairosfocus
March 3, 2017
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I know this is utterly pedantic, but is "acrostic" the correct description of FCSI/O? I've read it as an initialism (F-C-S-I-O), but I know some wags have unkindly suggested it is an acronym ("Fiasco").Bob O'H
March 3, 2017
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Is FSCO/I an invention or a description?kairosfocus
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