Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

We have the hat, but where’s that rabbit? High levels of information in “simple” life forms

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In Tuesday night, a guest speaker spoke to my adult night school class in why there is an intelligent design controversy. He talked about the central problem of evolution: The fact that high levels of information are present in life forms that are supposed to be early and simple.

Some guests attended the talk, and one of them announced that if intelligent design is correct, scientists would not see the need to do any research because Goddunit. Or something like that.

The more I thought about what he was saying, the more it puzzled me. Finally, I realized:

For the materialist, the PURPOSE of science is to show that high levels of information can be created without intelligence.

Therefore, in looking for causes of events, the materialist accepts ONLY a solution that shows that high levels of information can come from random assembly (= without intelligence).

He has not shown that high levels of information can be created without intelligence. He assumes that his assertion is true and looks for evidence to support it.

Discoveries that disconfirm his initial belief are not treated as evidence.

Keep looking, he says, keep looking … that magic information mill has GOT to be somewhere!

What if random assembly is not in fact the answer? Then either

1. No solution is found (because there never was any solution in the direction in which he is looking)

or

2. An inadequate solution is patched together and defended as the best available solution – usually that means that claims for the solution are overstated wildly to the public.

But it is the materialist scientist’s duty to keep looking for the magic mill even if the fact that random assembly did not occur is overwhelmingly obvious.

And he displays his virtue to his peers by never questioning the system and by showing hostility and contempt for anyone who does question it.

Given his initial convictions, the materialist cannot believe that a non-materialist is actually doing science. He cannot envision any approach to the fact base that does not have as its base an effort to show that the information was created randomly.

As a matter of fact, the fact base could easily be approached otherwise, and often more fruitfully, too. If we assume that an object in nature is designed, we do not waste time trying to imagine how it could have come about randomly. We study its characteristics and make predictions about its behaviour, function, and so forth.

But that doesn’t help prop up materialism – which seems to be the big project nowadays.

To see why materialism is on a slow train to nowhere, go here. These heroes of materialist evolution theories  are at least as sharp as a marshmallow and twice as swift too.

Also, at The Mindful Hack and Post-Darwinist and elsewhere:

Antony Flew: Is he too old Also, New York Times spin: Elderly ex-atheist is just senile.

Intelligence: How much is heredity and how much environment? – the Flynn effect

Books at home predict student success better than parents’ education

US anti-religion group loses standing to fight lawsuits

Faking out brain injury tests – yes, it can be done

AIDS numbers downsized: a learning experience

Pudging the Truth

Grandma was right: Just eat and be thankful

Our weighty obsession – this one should be required reading for teen girls. Eating disorders very often begin with a diet.

Comments
Excellent response Patrick, getawitness: You have got to be kidding me if you think whale evolution happened! You guys can't even come with one incontrovertible mutation, to a living organism, that can withstand scrutiny for being truly beneficial. As far as a mechanism, I just noted that quantum non-locality has been advanced to the level of complex biological molecules. This demonstration of "transcendent" information being physically implemented onto a complex biological molecule, provides a very solid demonstration for proof of principle, for the Theistic postulation of ID. Do you deny my assertion? If so, how is the fact that transcendent information is clearly being demonstrated to "dom^in^ate" biological molecules contrary to the Theistic postulation of Information coming from a higher dimension to create CSI in life? It clearly is not contrary to the postulation. It clearly demonstrates that the mechanism for "information implementation" from a higher dimension does indeed exist in nature, IF a Being from a higher dimension chose to use it to implement information at different times in our history! Unlike evolution which has no demonstration for information originating by totally natural processes, we (Theistic IDists) have a demonstration of complex information 1. Being transcendent of any physical laws of this universe 2. This complex information actually dom^in^ating biological molecules from this transcendent dimension!bornagain77
November 25, 2007
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Bob O'H (#37): "Ah, Jerry, so your examples of purges are: 1. Dembski - a mathematician and theologian. And not a biologist. 2. Marks - a computer scientist, who as you admit hasn’t been sacked. Also not a biologist. 3. Gonzalez - an astronomer. i.e. not a biologist. 4. Behe - at last, a biologist! Who still has his job, just like Sternberg." An amazingly weak rejoinder to Jerry # 27. A great example of deliberate mischaracterization of the proferred argument. Jerry clearly explained his use of the term "purge" as intense persecution. It would be interesting how you would argue that these individuals weren't persecuted for expressing their unnacceptable to orthodoxy beliefs. Phony "logic" - yes, there is only one biologist on this list, but how does this logically imply that the reason is that the neoDarwinian theory of all evolution is the truth (as opposed to several other possible reasons)? Deliberate refusal to engage an argument - the thought experiment: try questioning scientistic assumptions of origins in any academic context. What are the likely effects on one's career?magnan
November 25, 2007
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I didn’t think ID had a mechanism.
Previously discussed here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-does-the-actor-act/
Personally I’m not sure why the lack of a specified mechanism is such a hangup. After all, Darwinists are arguing amongst themselves what the primary mechanism for creating complex genomes might be. Does the CORE of ID theory need to be tied to mechanisms considering ID-compatible hypotheses provide mechanisms ... You are asking for a mechanism for design. Let me be clear that the core of ID theory is not mechanical in nature. There are ID-compatible hypotheses that offer mechanisms for design in biology. Two examples are front-loading and punctuated intervention, which are both compatible with universal common descent. Of course, even in a YEC scenario there can still be partial front-loading and other intelligent mechanisms which can account for rapid evolution. While front-loading has predictions unfortunately the results of punctuated intervention and unintelligent mechanisms might look much the same. The difference is that intelligent mechanisms need not be gradualistic, which of course is more compatible with the fossil record. But while we know that intelligence is quite capable of producing specified complexity we are still trying to determine the exact limitations of unguided Darwinian mechanisms. We do have experimental evidence (see Behe’s Edge of Evolution) but most Darwinian mechanisms are untested…they’re just assumed to work as advertised. Now an intelligent mechanism can self-terminate aka “stop”. Darwinian mechanisms on the other hand have no reason to do so. So, unless unguided, unintelligent Darwinian mechanisms happen to be on vacation they are either not active today at the same level or they were never capable in the first place. It’s always possible we are misunderstanding something about unintelligent mechanisms but so far the outlook is grim for Darwinism. I for one am open to the possibility that intelligence was only involved during OOL and the system was configured in such a fashion to allow unintelligent mechanisms to unfold the rest (like a culmination of lego block pieces). But I do not see any evidence or experiments to validate that scenario.
Patrick
November 25, 2007
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BA77, I didn't think ID had a mechanism. I'm also unconvinced that the "law of conservation of information" is a "foundational tenet of science" -- at least it hasn't been recognized as such outside a very small circle of scientists. Your references to genetic entropy as foundational (I assume you're talking about the work of Sanford) are kind of idiosyncratic. As I mentioned a few days ago, I've ordered the Sanford book from interlibrary loan and will read it. jerry [30], if you look carefully, you'll see I didn't identify PE as a mechanism but rather as a good understanding of the timescale of evolutionary change. I do think there are a number of transitional models (despite critiques, for example, I think we have a pretty good undertanding of whale evolution), so I disagree with your contention that "there were no transitions to support the naturalistic paradigm." If PE was proposed for that reason, wouldn't it have been accepted quickly? But in fact it was fought tooth and nail by many, many others in the evolutionary biology community. Here's an pattern I've been noticing: when evolutionary biologists disagree, ID folks say that means Darwinism/ naturalism/ evolution etc. is dead (or dying, whatever). When evolutionary biologists agree, ID folks say that means they operate in lockstep, are brainwashed, etc. So both agreement and disagreement become de facto evidence for the ID position. Dissents from neo-Darwinism by (for example) evo-devo are signs of the poverty of evolutionary theory. Yet evolutionary theory is impoverished because it won't entertain dissent!getawitness
November 25, 2007
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I second Jerry, ellazimm, since you seem so confident and sincere, pick out a couple of what you consider your strongest proofs, bring them over, and then watch them melt into nothing under the light of investigation.bornagain77
November 25, 2007
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Ah, Jerry, so your examples of purges are: 1. Dembski - a mathematician and theologian. And not a biologist. 2. Marks - a computer scientist, who as you admit hasn't been sacked. Also not a biologist. 3. Gonzalez - an astronomer. i.e. not a biologist. 4. Behe - at last, a biologist! Who still has his job, just like Sternberg.Bob O'H
November 25, 2007
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ellazimm, Why don't you pick out what you think are the strongest arguments in the TO faqs for macro evolution and we can debate a couple if people here are willing. See what happens.jerry
November 25, 2007
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Patrick, Thank you for finding the quote. I was just able to find it and it was on a discussion starting November 9th titled "Future Risk Assessment in the Genome" In it Dr. MacNeill responded to a comment laying out the complexities of macro-evolution that there seemed to be no answer for.jerry
November 25, 2007
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Denyse: I believe that making a distinction between "only natural causes" and "only material causes," as you do in post 6, goes a long way in helping to define the differences in approach toward science between ID-oriented scientists and orthodox scientists. The orthodox restrict science to "only material causes," and require materialistic explanations -- no matter how fanciful (and becoming ever the more so, as if for our what? our entertainment?) -- for any and all natural effects. ID adherents restrict science to "only natural causes," but have the temerity to point out that there are natural effects that cannot be scientifically explained by purely materialistic causes, introducing -- horror of horrors -- the scientific possibility (nay, the scientific likelihood) of supernatural causes for some (but by no means all) natural effects; causes that, by definition, are beyond the ken of science to know. The "throw up your hands and say God did it" argument against ID is a canard. In fact, I don't see, in day-to-day science, how the two approaches make much practical difference. It's on the "edge of evolution" where the orthodox are loathe (with Eve, see Genesis 3:5) to give up the deceit that "ye shall be as gods." Meanwhile ID adherents, already recognizing that there must be a power (or powers) greater than themselves, are not uncomfortable allowing -- in both their personal lives as human beings and their professional lives as scientists -- that there may be valid epistemologies that originate in spiritual realm, and that can be known only via non-scientific principles such as faith.jstanley01
November 25, 2007
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jerry, here is the quote you were looking for:
Do the currently identified mechanisms of genetic and phenotypic variation produce enough variation to get from there to here or not? .... As for macroevolution, I agree that at the present time we have little or no formal theory predicting the observed patterns of change in deep evolutionary time. This is one reason why I have asserted that the so-called "modern evolutionary synthesis" of the mid-20th century is "dead" – it's theoretical predictions have either been superceded (e.g. by evo-devo) or shown to be inadequate. However, this only means that we do not currently have a comprehensive theoretical understanding of how macroevolution has occurred. What we do have is an immense and exponentially expanding body of evidence strongly supporting the inference that macroevolution has indeed happened.
Yes, MacNeill is positive that with further research that Darwinism, whatever form it'll eventually take, will be vindicated. Many ID proponents would agree with the quoted statement entirely, but would also say we need to be looking for designed mechanisms (such as front-loading) along with Darwinian mechanisms.
What we do have is an immense and exponentially expanding body of evidence strongly supporting the inference that macroevolution has indeed happened. This is the inference that both Michael Behe and William Dembski (and my friend and colleague, Hannah Maxson) have agreed with on numerous occasions. the argument is not about whether, but rather about how. One approach to answering the question of how has macroevolution occurred is to analyze the previously mentioned mountain of empirical evidence with respect to any patterns that it might yield. .... Therefore (and as we concluded last summer), the only real areas of dispute between evolutionary biologists and the major theorists and supporters of intelligent design is the origin of life from non-living material ("abiogenesis") and the origin of a small number of complex biochemical mechanisms and pathways (including the bacterial flagellum, selected components of the vertebrate immune system, and the mammalian blood clotting cascade, to which Behe has now added the evolution of chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum).
Despite agreeing about universal common descent, I doubt Behe would agree with MacNeill's overall characterization of the situation. Flagellum and P. falciparum are just highlights, not the only objects under dispute as MacNeill asserts. One of the focuses for ID proponents has always been–even 10+ years ago–to find whether there is positive evidence for Darwinian mechanisms being capable of macroevolution to the extent that everything we see since the OOL was created without any directed design involved. That is nowhere near a "small" disagreement. That's a gaping hole in evolutionary biology that MacNeill is attempting to fill in with his list of purported mechanisms for modern evolutionary biology--none of which he has major positive evidence for. Scientists are just seeking one example. Every time a Darwinist claims there is an example, it's either a trivial example ID proponents would not disagree with in the first place (Smith's HIV) or they're playing connect-the-dots by comparing various creatures and presuming the mechanism works…which is the point under contention in the first place! Yet most Darwinists will never admit that examples have never been observed but are instead inferred to be real. Oh, I should also note that these proposed mechanisms are very likely of being capable of inducing limited variation. The real question is whether a combination of them are capable producing biology as we know it without any intelligent mechanisms being involved. But despite these disagreements, I personally am very thankful to him for declaring that Neo-Darwinism is largely dead and a new "modern synthesis" must be formed. The debate has been centered around old ideas in evolutionary biology for far too long.Patrick
November 25, 2007
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jerry and pretty much every long time commentator on UD are very familiar with everything in the TO FAQ.Patrick
November 25, 2007
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getawitness, You list a lot of potential mechanisms or explanations for justifying a naturalistic view of evolution. We can take each one in isolation to see if it really addresses the main issues under debate. We have done this many times and it gets repeated as new persons come to the site and are not aware of what came before them. For example, punctuated equilibrium is not a mechanism of biological change. It just says that something happened very quickly and assumed it was by naturalistic means. It will go into a lot of explanations such as geographic isolation, founder effects etc but offers no evidence to support it other than some speculative models. Punctuated equilibrium was developed to ostensibly cover up the embarrassing fact that there were no transitions to support the naturalistic paradigm. It is a model, and nothing more. it does not based on any empirical evidence except the lack of fossil evidence nor is there much support for the elements of this model other than for trivial results. I don't want to get in to a long discussion of punctuated equilibrium but use it as a quick example of something that has little or no empirical backing of any consequence but which is accepted as fact by many. It is typical of the entire discipline of evolutionary biology. I will get you the thread for the MacNeill quote. It was just a few weeks ago before the debate of Provine and Nelson which I understand from an observer was a low key event with neither side addressing the other directly very much.jerry
November 25, 2007
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jerry, You make an interesting point, and one I'm broadly sympathetic with. I do agree that the academic tenure process (for example) may cause some people to play things close to the vest during their early years, which is exactly when they should be most innovative and bold. A few years ago, George Will proposed that tenure might be reversed: given to researchers in their first decade or so, when they most need protection, and then slowly taken away later as results are demanded. I've never been sure what to make of that proposal, but it's an interesting thought experiment at least.getawitness
November 25, 2007
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I believe there may be a little known movie coming out about this alleged, and much denied, "purging" of ID friendly scholars in February: http://www.expelledthemovie.com/bornagain77
November 25, 2007
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Bob O'H, Maybe we should develop a laundry list here of the "purges", but in addition to Sternberg we could start with Dembski himself, Marks who hasn't been sacked but his research restricted, Gonzalez from Iowa State where some people voting on tenure openly admitted his support for ID was a factor. Have you looked at what the Lehigh biology department has publicly said about Behe. Do you think with that announcement that Behe would be able to get tenure today? Others may be able to cite other examples. When I use the term purge, I obviously am not speaking of Stalin like methods but agree with getawitness it is a little bit of hyperbole but it was to make a point especially about the lock step behavior for a paradigm with no empirical support. Now that does sound like Stalin. Bob, I suggest an experiment. Start defending ID in faculty meetings if you are in academia or in conferences and in reports not necessarily as a pro ID person yourself but only just as one who says they must be heard because they raise some interesting questions and should be considered in discussions of evolutionary biology. After all if there is a God or if we believe in SETI maybe one of these intelligences may have done something. What do you think your survival prospects will be?jerry
November 25, 2007
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getawitness, You stated a lot of proposed mechanisms for evolution, none of which have been proven in the lab. Whereas ID/Genetic Entropy has a proven mechanism for "information implementation" from a higher realm/dimension with breakthroughs in quantum non-locality. As well, Why should the foundational principle of Genetic Entropy be discarded when upon critical analysis of evidence all biological adaptations conform to it, as well, Genetic Entropy lines up with two of the foundational tenets of science; the second law of thermodynamics; and the law of conservation of information. Even the trivial gains in complexity for HIV (the ONLY gains in complexity ever completely proven to the molecular level in favor of evolution, by the way) came at a cost of complexity for the higher organism (us) it attacked. Thus even in this "hard proof" for evolution we find an overall loss in complexity for life that does not violate the foundational principle of Genetic Entropy. No getawitness, evolution is a theory in search of ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER and by all rights should be banished to the dust bin of history!bornagain77
November 25, 2007
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I brought in Stalin because there is lots of evidence of purges going on in biology though they are not eliminated the same way that Stalin did the elimination.
Can you give us this "lots of evidence of purges". I don't see it. I'll take Sternberg as read. You imply that there is a lot of purging going on, so I expect you have evidence for multiple events. BobBob O'H
November 25, 2007
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Hi Peter: Re 13: If ID is correct how does one do science? Perhaps, the way the founders of modern science and many of its sub-disciplines by and large did it? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 24, 2007
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jerry, I'm trying to find where Alan MacNeill said that and I'm having a hard time locating the exact comment. He's said a number of things, not all of which I agree with. Could you provide a link? Two things for the record: First, I'm not a scientist: I read some of the primary literature but get it mostly secondhand, much like most readers of, say, The Edge of Evolution. So I'm not going to get into a citation fight. Second, I don't take a position on abiogenesis. Not that you asked, but I thought I'd get that out of the way. My view of the rest of evolution is kind of eclectic: I think a number of mechanisms have operated, some simultaneously, some preferred at different times and under different conditions. These would include classic neo-Darwinism, evo-devo, lots of symbiotic processes in early bacterial evolution (see Lynn Margulis), etc. I think punctuated equilibrium seems like a pretty good way of understanding the timescales of evolutionary change (assuming of course that the consensus view of the earth's age is accurate). I also have a developmental systems view of evolution in its totality that does not easily separate the organism from its environment: this accords with the views of people like Margulis (mentioned above), Susan Oyama and Humberto Maturana/ Francisco Varela. It is of course an assumption that evolution works natural mechanisms. But why should I abandon that assumption? It's also an assumption that the continents got to their present configuration on their own via naturalistic mechanisms. Now, there are lots of debates about the specific mechanisms of plate movement: the role of mantle plumes, the configuration of the boundary between the lower and upper mantle, etc. etc. Nobody knows exactly how we got from Pangea to now. But I don't think that's a reason to abandon the naturalistic premise.getawitness
November 24, 2007
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getawitness, I provided a theistic evolutionist about what ID believes. One thing that I believe that is common with nearly everyone that supports ID is that they believe thate there is no evidence for the Darwinian paradigm except for trivial examples. We have yet to find anyone including evolutionary biologists to provide any empirical support for neo Darwinism beyond the tivial or to counter claims made by people like Michael Behe in his two books that are not nit picking or specious. Since you say you believe that there is empirical support, then you should help us in this debate and provide the evidence. That way we can learn or maybe you can learn that what is supposed to be empirical support is really weak or not even appropriate. Allan MacNeill, an evolutionary biologist who is at the forefront of the discipline, admitted here just a couple weeks ago that there were models but not empirical evidence for macro-evolution. If you decide to provide support for neo Darwinism, we will be quite civil and it should be interesting to see where it leads.jerry
November 24, 2007
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One solution to what O'Leary observes is akin to a mathematical uniqueness proof. Life appears designed. Those looking for an evolutionary pathway that explains the "apparent" design will continue to search unless it is ruled out as impossible. To some, it is not sufficient for ID to satisfy Occam's razor--the most likely explanation--it needs to be the only explanation. An interesting approach would be to prove that information is something other than matter or energy (as N. Weiner asserts). Different arrangements of matter and energy do not create information, but they can be the repository for information. A successful origin of life theory needs to account for the origin of information.dgw
November 24, 2007
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getawitness: "That’s because they are in, uh, evolutionary biology." One can accept an evolutionary model without accepting darwinism, the blind watchmaker hypothesis, etc.mike1962
November 24, 2007
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Jerry, We clearly disagree about whether evolutionary biology has empirical support. I think it does. That doesn't make me ignorant of biology, unless most biologists are also ignorant of biology. Of course there are disagreements about the details of evolutionary change, but that's all for the good. Your mention of Stalin was hyperbolic, pure and simple.getawitness
November 24, 2007
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getawitness, "That’s because they are in, uh, evolutionary biology." Uh, do you understand anything about science in general or evolutionary biology in particular. Your comment indicates you don't. So maybe you should recuse yourself from discussions that involve science and observe and ask questions. Just to let you understand what is at stake; no area of science should use a paradigm with out empirical backing? I brought in Stalin because there is lots of evidence of purges going on in biology though they are not eliminated the same way that Stalin did the elimination. I find the comparison appropriate. Those who disagree are eliminated or silenced. Let me know why that is not an appropriate comparison. "Next time, be sure to mention that every bad person since 1859 was inspired by Darwin." Nice juvenile comment. As I said maybe you should recuse yourself from science discussions.jerry
November 24, 2007
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Jerry, Contradictory findings do not bark in unison. As for
Nearly all experiments in evolutionary biology are based on the Darwinian model.
That's because they are in, uh, evolutionary biology. But hey, thanks for bringing Stalin in: that satisfies my call for more broad-brush thinking. Next time, be sure to mention that every bad person since 1859 was inspired by Darwin.getawitness
November 24, 2007
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Peter: "If ID is correct how does one do science?" One answer to that is, researchers, who would otherwise be at a investigatory dead end, could be about the business of exploiting the structures that they find, to the end of bettering our world.mike1962
November 24, 2007
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You're absolutely right, Denyse! Whether they realize it or not, mainstream scientists are under some sort of satanic influence. They may be well meaning people, but they don't realize that ultimately their "methodological naturalism" is just a tool to DENY GOD. In fact, I believe all the supposedly good things that have come out of science in last couple of centuries are just side effects and not the main purpose of Science. Just think if we could bring back the study of Design and God back into science(I'm going to be frank here: I don't believe aliens are the designers); I think we would see a lot more progress. Darwinian thinking has permeated many areas of science. Neuroscience has pretty much done away with the soul, and insists that our minds are really just a function of our biological brains i.e. they have no REAL intelligence. Researchers at pharmaceutical companies just sit around waiting for cures to randomly appear in test tubes, because of what they were taught about the universe. If Intelligent Design were the dominant paradigm, just imagine how many dollars would be saved by a more efficient drug design methodology based on Design principles. I think cosmologists are slowly coming around to understanding that things are designed (see the Anthropic principle), but I think they are being held back by their Darwinian upbringing. It won't be long before people begin to realize that ID is a superior theory to mindless Darwinism. Darwin may have said that God is dead, but we all know Darwin is dead and that his pet theory is dying a slow death.cdesignproponentsists
November 24, 2007
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Denyse, But you are not really answering his question. To make progress ID has to answer its critics. If ID is correct how does one do science? Of course the answer is simple for most people and has been around for a long time. This indicates to me that the critic was really masking a religious insecurity. Scientist have been investigating the design of the world since long before evolution story telling began. I really would have liked to been there but I'm only at St Mike's on Thursdays. :-|Peter
November 24, 2007
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getawitness, Nearly all experiments in evolutionary biology are based on the Darwinian model. That sounds a little bit like barking in unison. It is also a model that has no empirical underpinning. I actually do not rule out creativity from the biologists because in the course of writing their reports they can get very creative in explaining their contradictory findings. Maybe you could enlighten us as to why all this effort and money is being expended on a paradigm that has no empirical support except for the trivial unless there is some type of external pressure that is requiring this lock step behavior. Sounds sort of like Stalin's purge of the geneticists to get a political solution that is acceptable.jerry
November 24, 2007
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These guys are sure pushing the envelope of what is considered natural. "We found that applying magnetic pulses to the brain when an anesthetic was placed in between caused the brain to feel the effect of said anesthetic as if the test subject had actually inhaled the same. We further found that drinking water exposed to magnetic pulses, laser light or microwave when an anesthetic was placed in between also causes brain effects in various degrees. Through additional experiments, we verified that the said brain effect was indeed the consequence of quantum entanglement. These results defy common belief that quantum entanglement alone cannot be used to transmit information and support the possibility of a quantum brain." http://www.neuroquantology.com/journal/index.php/nq/article/view/116/111 I can't find in their papers if they actually tested for the specific molecules in the or of the subjects. (Surely they must of wouldn't you think?) Either way, if it is just a placebo effect in the brain, or if it is actual molecules being formed in the brain/body, it is profoundly breakthrough science, and will surely ruffle plenty of materialistic feathers on what is allowed to be considered natural and what is not.bornagain77
November 24, 2007
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