Philip Cunningham argues: Jesus Christ is the correct Theory of Everything

_{Denyse O'Leary

January 24, 2021

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Here are the notes.

Agree? Don’t agree? Let’s hear from you in the combox.

He’s been a faithful commenter over the years.

Comments

Viola Lee, I guess I misunderstood when you said in 19,
There is nothing new in the video that we all haven’t scrolled by before.
Apparently, you weren't thinking of Gödel's theorems, which as I said was quite surprising to me that they were actually being considered by a serious physicist in terms of the incompatibility of ETR and QM. Since Reality seems to be mathematical--the wavefunction is nothing tangible, only interacting probabilities until observed, it's not implausible that Gödel's theorems could apply to to these as well as the mathematics underlying ETR. Of course, Gödel's theorems apply to systems of counting numbers, but it's not really a stretch to apply the same concepts to whole numbers and even rational numbers, perhaps followed by irrational, imaginary, and other types of numbers. Are you familiar with any work extending Gödel's theorems to any of these other number systems? -QQuerius_{January 29, 2021
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Pierre d’Arcis “The case, Holy Father, stands thus. Some time since in this diocese of Troyes the Dean of a certain collegiate church, to wit, that of Lirey, falsely and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of avarice, and not from any motive of devotion but only of gain, procured for his church a certain cloth cunningly painted, upon which by a clever sleight of hand was depicted the twofold image of one man, that is to say, the back and front, he falsely declaring and pretending that this was the actual shroud in which our Saviour Jesus Christ was enfolded in the tomb, and upon which the whole likeness of the Saviour had remained thus impressed together with the wounds which He bore.” “This story was put about not only in the kingdom of France, but, so to speak, throughout the world, so that from all parts people came together to view it. And further to attract the multitude so that money might cunningly be wrung from them, pretended miracles were worked, certain men being hired to represent themselves as healed at the moment of the exhibition of the shroud, which all believed to the shroud of our Lord. The Lord Henry of Poitiers, of pious memory, then Bishop of Troyes, becoming aware of this, and urged by many prudent persons to take action, as indeed was his duty in the exercise of his ordinary jurisdiction, set himself earnestly to work to fathom the truth of this matter.” “For many theologians and other wise persons declared that this could not be the real shroud of our Lord having the Saviour’s likeness thus imprinted upon it, since the holy Gospel made no mention of any such imprint, while, if it had been true, it was quite unlikely that the holy Evangelists would have omitted to record it, or that the fact should have remained hidden until the present time. Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he discovered the fraud and how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed.” “Accordingly, after taking mature counsel with wise theologians and men of the law, seeing that he neither ought nor could allow the matter to pass, he began to institute formal proceedings against the said Dean and his accomplices in order to root out this false persuasion. They, seeing their wickedness discovered, hid away the said cloth so that the Ordinary could not find it, and they kept it hidden afterwards for thirty-four years or thereabouts down to the present year.”Steve Alten2_{January 29, 2021
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Q, you write, "Viola Lee, the question that I asked you in @76 was not rhetorical... I’m asking since you indicated familiarity with Gödel’s incompleteness theorems with regard to QM." Hmmmm, I said I wasn't familiar with that. What I said about Godel was "Godel's theorem is a sophisticated argument involving sets of sets in pure mathematics that is about the natural number system. I don't think it automatically transfers over to whether we can find some overriding mathematical theory that ties ETR and QM together." I agree with you that I have never seen anything about Godel and QM (although I am just a casual educated layperson, IANAP). What I understand about Godel's theorem is that it says in any axiomatic system there will be true statements within the system that nevertheless can't be proved within the system. That is, it is about purely mathematical systems, so I don't think that it automatically becomes true about mathematical descriptions about the real world, such as some possible unification of QM and general relativity. Sort of like QM itself, people tend to apply Godels' ideas to things beyond the bounds of what they applies to.Viola Lee_{January 29, 2021
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Viola Lee, The question that I asked you in @76 was not rhetorical.
This presentation is actually the first time that I’ve seen Kurt Gödel’s incompleteness theorems applied by respected physicists to the problems reconciling the mathematics of ETR and QM . I found that part of the presentation particularly interesting . . . Frankly, I’ve never read such a proposal in any of the books I’ve read on QM. Do you have any references that I could follow up on?
I'm asking since you indicated familiarity with Gödel’s incompleteness theorems with regard to QM. Thanks, -QQuerius_{January 29, 2021
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Bornagain77, Wow, what a fascinating quote from Euler! Thank you. This is reassuring in a negative sort of way. It also reminds me of several modest discoveries that I thought I made One in particular, I posted online for comment and was strongly criticized until someone found that it had been previously discovered and published. No apologies were forthcoming, of course. Just silence. Sadly, humanity's natural inclination is to keep our eyes tightly shut, our mouths wide open with blah blah blah, and our ears plugged. Then, when we get overwhelmed with guilt, stress, and complexity, we turn to . . . drugs, denial, and despair. It's always ABC: Anything But Christ. And yet, somewhere deep inside there's a tiny yearning. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." - Jesus, Revelation 3:20 (NASB) -QQuerius_{January 29, 2021
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Viola Lee states that,
There are very large issues about interpreting what we know of quantum events as to they pertain to metaphysical questions about the nature of reality,
That reminds me of this following interview with Anton Zeilinger in which he states at the 9:00 min mark:,,, "the main issue (with quantum mechanics) is interpretation. What does it mean for our view of the world.,,, "emotional" fights happen over what it means,,,"
Anton Zeilinger interviewed about Quantum Mechanics - video - 2018 (The essence of Quantum Physics for a general audience) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82XCvgnpmA 40 sec: Every object has to be in a definite place is not true anymore.,,, The thought that a particle can be at two places at the same time is (also) not good language. The good language it that there are situations where it is completely undefined where the particle is. (and it is not just us (we ourselves) that don't know where the particle is, the particle itself does not know where it is). This "nonexistence" is an objective feature of reality.,,, 5:10 min:,,, superposition is not limited to small systems,,, 7:35 min:,,, I have given lectures on quantum physics to children, 6 and 7 years old, and they understand the basic concepts of quantum physics if you tell them the right way.,,, 9:00 min:,,, the main issue (with quantum mechanics) is interpretation. What does it mean for our view of the world.,,, "emotional" fights happen over what it means,,, 15:45 min:,,, the fact that some of the brightest minds in physics have been working on this issue, (i.e. The unification of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics), for 80 years now at least, and have not found a solution means that the solution will be extremely deep. It will be extremely significant if somebody found it, and it will probably be in a direction where nobody expected it.,,, 16:55:,,, Dark matter and Dark energy smell a little bit like the (fictitious) ether in the old electrodynamic theory.,,, 17:30:,,, In quantum mechanics we have the measurement paradox (i.e. measurement problem),,, I think it (the measurement paradox) tells us something about the role of observation in the world. And the role of information.,, Maybe there are situations where we have to reconsider the "Cartesian cut"*,,, *Cartesian Cut The Cartesian cut is a metaphorical notion alluding to Decartes' distinction of res cogitans (thinking substance) and res extensa (extended substance). It plays a crucial role in the long history of the problem of the relationship between mind and matter and is constitutive for the natural sciences of today. While the elements of res cogitans are mental (non-material) entities like ideas, models, or concepts, the elements of res extensa are material facts, events, or data. The conventional referents of all natural sciences belong to the latter regime. http://see.library.utoronto.ca/pages/cartesian_cutdef.html
I also really, really like Zeilinger's observation at the 15:45 min mark since it fits in so well with my video in the OP:,,, specifically Zeilinger states, "the fact that some of the brightest minds in physics have been working on this issue, (i.e. The unification of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics), for 80 years now at least, and have not found a solution means that the solution will be extremely deep. It will be extremely significant if somebody found it, and it will probably be in a direction where nobody expected it.,,," :) But anyways let's leave that particular quote to the side for now and get back to 'interpreting' quantum mechanics,,,, why in the world are there 'emotional fights' over such a seemingly innocuous thing as interpreting what the experiments of quantum mechanics are telling us? Well, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is the same exact reason why so many atheists get so angry when you point out the fact that life gives us abundant evidence of having been intelligently designed. Indeed, it is why so many atheists devote hours upon hours on the internet trying to defend the completely scientifically bankrupt idea that is Darwinian evolution. They simply don't the world to be like that. EVER, PERIOD! Thomas Nagel,,, a prominent American Philosopher who is an atheist, and who honestly confessed that, "the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False",,,
Mind & Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Cosmos-Materialist-Neo-Darwinian-Conception/dp/0199919755
Thomas Nagel, an atheist and prominent American Philosopher, referred to this irrational 'emotional' response by him, and other atheists, to resisting the idea that God is behind life and the universe, as the "cosmic authority problem", and he even states, "I don’t want the universe to be like that."
“I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that. My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about human life, including everything about the human mind …. This is a somewhat ridiculous situation …. [I]t is just as irrational to be influenced in one’s beliefs by the hope that God does not exist as by the hope that God does exist.” - Thomas Nagel
What in the world does 'wanting' the universe to be a certain way have to do with being scientifically honest enough to accept the way the universe actually is? But anyway Querius, that is quite the telling quote from Nagel and nicely sums up what we are actually dealing with in our dealings with atheists. Rebellion against God, plain and simple! Thus Querius it is not so much that the 'modern way' of thinking makes atheists so irrational, but it is the simply the age old problem of rebellion against God that makes them so impervious to reasoned argumentation. The Old Testament (and even the New Testament) is literally chock full of examples of rebellion against God. And as the famed mathematician Leonard Euler noted way back in 1747, "If these people (atheists) maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible."
A DEFENSE OF THE (Divine) REVELATION AGAINST THE OBJECTIONS OF FREETHINKERS, BY MR. (Leonard) EULER?Excerpt: "The freethinkers (atheists) have yet to produce any objections that have not long been refuted most thoroughly. But since they are not motivated by the love of truth, and since they have an entirely different point of view, we should not be surprised that the best refutations count for nothing and that the weakest and most ridiculous reasoning, which has so often been shown to be baseless, is continuously repeated. If these people maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible." http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/docs/translations/E092trans.pdf
Yes indeed, if only atheist would be reasonable then "it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors;" Verse:
Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”
bornagain77_{January 29, 2021
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seversky:
Otherwise, listing cherry-picked quotes which do not necessarily reflect the considered opinions of the authors and leaping wildly across the many gaps in our understanding to unwarranted inferences of support for religious beliefs may be comforting personally but it is not scientific.
You just described materialists and evolutionists. Nicely doneET_{January 29, 2021
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Q writes, "... willing to simply brush off the most intensely tested and experimentally verified branch of the most exact science known to mankind." I guess I don't see this. Who is brushing off quantum mechanics? There are very large issues about interpreting what we know of quantum events as to they pertain to metaphysical questions about the nature of reality, but I don't see people "brushing it off." I've read a number of books by different people on the subject, and they all take the reality (pun intended) of QM events quite seriously.Viola Lee_{January 29, 2021
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Bornagain77 @78, What you're pointing out is that the "modern" way of thinking assumes that unsupported assertions refutes ALL other logic, experimental science, expertise, and any logic. I've mentioned before that a bot could easily be programmed to respond to any subject with similar spectacular refutations (lol) such as
This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

We've all heard this before.
(i.e. "We" as in "me and my tapeworm.")
People like you always come up with that lame argument.
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became . . . ” - Paul of Tarsus -QQuerius_{January 29, 2021
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Kairosfocus @77,
Q, communicative reason himself. KF
Yes, and logic, wisdom, and information. And likely conscious free will choices as noted by contemporary researchers in quantum mechanics.
The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena. - Vlatko Vedralis a professor of Physics at the University of Oxford who specializes in quantum theory
The reason I keep posting this quote is because the people cannot recognize their their ideological attachments are also willing to simply brush off the most intensely tested and experimentally verified branch of the most exact science known to mankind. This is a pity. -QQuerius_{January 29, 2021
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Viola Lee @ 73, I agree.Steve Alten2_{January 29, 2021
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At 73 Viola Lee finally appeals to somebody other that himself. Unfortunately for him. he appeals to our own resident atheist Seversky as an authority,
VL_ Good post, Sev. I like this particularly: Otherwise, listing cherry-picked quotes which do not necessarily reflect the considered opinions of the authors and leaping wildly across the many gaps in our understanding to unwarranted inferences of support for religious beliefs may be comforting personally but it is not scientific.
Viola Lee, despite how enamored you may be by Seversky's quote since it agrees with your own anti-Christian bias, the fact of the matter is that science is not based upon Seversky's materialistic and/or naturalistic worldview, but science, every nook and cranny of it, is instead based upon the presupposition of Intelligent Design. Contrary to what many people have been falsely led to believe by Darwinian atheists, about Intelligent Design supposedly being a pseudo-science, the fact of the matter is that all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism. From the essential Christian presuppositions that undergird the founding of modern science itself, (namely that the universe is rational and that the minds of men, being made in the ‘image of God’, can dare understand that rationality), to the intelligent design of the scientific instruments and experiments themselves, to the logical and mathematical analysis of experimental results themselves, from top to bottom, science itself is certainly not to be considered a ‘natural’ endeavor of man. Not one scientific instrument would ever exist if men did not first intelligently design that scientific instrument. Not one test tube, microscope, telescope, spectroscope, or etc.. etc.., was ever found just laying around on a beach somewhere which was ‘naturally’ constructed by nature. Not one experimental result would ever be rationally analyzed since there would be no immaterial minds to rationally analyze the immaterial logic and immaterial mathematics that lay behind the intelligently designed experiments in the first place. Again, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism. Moreover, presupposing methodological naturalism, instead of Intelligent Design, as the starting presupposition for 'doing science' actually drives science into catastrophic epistemological failure.
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist (who believes Darwinian evolution to be true) is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. the illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who also must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the hopelessness of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is simply too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must also hold beauty itself to be illusory (Darwin). Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, Darwinian Materialism and/or Methodological Naturalism vs. Reality – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaksmYceRXM
Thus, although the Darwinian Atheist may firmly believe that he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for naturalistic explanations over and above God as a viable explanation), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists themselves are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, indeed more antagonistic to reality itself, than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77_{January 29, 2021
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Finally Viola Lee states some of the exact reasons why he doesn't think the video is worth his time. He states: "For, instance, he has quoted Feynman about “brushing infinity under the rug” many times, and draws conclusions about the significance about that that I think are false." HUH? But wait a minute, Exactly WHY does Viola Lee think that it is false? Are we suppose to just take Viola Lee's word for it that he personally finds it false and therefore we can rest assured, on his authority alone, that it is a false conclusion? Sorry Viola Lee but that is not how it works. You have to give your specific reasoning as to why you think it is false. In the video, I quoted Feynman directly on his uneasiness with 'brushing infinity under the rug', i.e. "“Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do?", and then I simply noted that, personally, I find it interesting that Richard Feynman, an atheist, would have been so bothered by his “brushing infinity under the rug.” (since) As for myself, being a Christian Theist, I find it rather comforting to know that it takes an ‘infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do’: The reason why I find it rather comforting is because of John 1:1, which says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ‘The Word’ in John 1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos also happens to be the root word from which we derive our modern word logic.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." of note: ‘the Word’ in John 1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos is also the root word from which we derive our modern word logic http://etymonline.com/?term=logic
So that it would take an infinite amount of logic to know what a tiny bit of spacetime is going to do is pretty much exactly what one should expect to see under Christian presuppositions. Thus my reasoning in the video is straight forward. Feynman, an atheist, was uneasy that it took an “infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do", and I merely pointed out that, for a Christian Theist via John 1:1, it is to be, pretty much, expected that is should take "“infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do". Nothing strained or forced in my resining. It is all straight forward. But hey, Viola Lee personally thinks my reasoning is false without stating his exact reason for why he personally thinks it is false. I guess that means it is case closed, right? Oh Well,,, But alas, others not so enamored with Viola Lee's towering intellect may not be so impressed with Viola Lee's personal assurance that there is 'nothing to see here' and want to know exactly why the Christian should not take comfort in the fact that it takes "“infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do". After that hand waving dismissal, Viola Lee goes on and states this 'reason' for why his dismissed my video, "He often refers to Godel’s incompleteness theorem but again finds significance in physics that I don’t think applies." HUH? So again we are just suppose to Viola Lee's word for it that Godel’s incompleteness theorem does not apply to physics? For crying out loud Viola Lee, But WHY do you personally think it does not apply to physics? i.e. What is your exact reasoning? In the video, I listed my exact reasons for why I think Godel’s incompleteness theorem does apply to physics. Specifically Godel's incompleteness theorem, contrary to what you believe, HAS now, in fact, been extended to quantum physics.
Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics - December 9, 2015 Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,, It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, "We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s," added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. "So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists' point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description." http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html
Shoot, even Stephen Hawking himself reluctantly admitted that Godel's incompleteness had direct implications for the quote-unquote 'theory of everything'
“Gödel’s incompleteness theorem (1931), proves that there are limits to what can be ascertained by mathematics. Kurt Gödel halted the achievement of a unifying all-encompassing theory of everything in his theorem that: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove”. - Stephen Hawking & Leonard Miodinow, The Grand Design (2010)
But hey, Viola Lee personally does not think Godel's incompleteness applies to physics and so I guess we can just rest assured that the matter is settled??? But then again, others not so enamored with Viola Lee's towering intellect may not be so impressed with Viola Lee's personal assurance that there is 'nothing to see here'. Viola Lee lays out more of his 'reasoning' for dismissing my video, "He’s talked about the Copernican principle many times." Yeah? And so what? That the Copernican principle is overturned by both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics is not a matter of opinion but is a matter of fact. A fact which I referenced in my video. Simply mentioning that I talked about the Copernican principle in my video and then saying nothing else is CERTAINLY NOT a refutation of my position in the video. Again, it might be very helpful for you to realize that others are nearly as enamored with your intellect as you seem to be. Viola Lee goes on, "He takes one particular view of (quantum) measurement that questioned by many eminent physicists," Hey,, now we are finally getting somewhere, but alas we are left completely in the dark as to who is doing the questioning and why they are questioning it. i.e. are they objecting for empirical or philosophical reasons? or etc.. etc..? Oh well so much for that supposed refutation of my video,,,, Viola Lee then goes on, "he’s quoted Wienberg multiple time," Yeah, and so what? I am particularly fond of Weinberg's paper entitled 'The trouble with quantum mechanics' because, number 1, Weinberg is brilliant and, number 2, because he is brutally honest. Which happens to be a lethal combination for his atheistic worldview. Viola goes on, "he’s quoted Zeilinger about the Word of God multiple times (and I’ve watched that video and it’s not the endorsement BA wants it to be)," Hey, what do you know,,, Viola Lee finally refers to something other than his own authority to decide if something is significant or not. But alas for Viola Lee, it is my video that he references and I have the exact quote handy, Here is the quote in full context,,
49:28 mark: "This is now my personal opinion OK. Because we cannot operationally separate the two. Whenever we talk about reality, we think about reality, we are really handling information. The two are not separable. So maybe now, this is speculative here, maybe the two are the same? Or maybe information constitutive to the universe. This reminds me of the beginning the bible of St. John which starts with “In the Beginning was the Word”.,,, Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT - video https://youtu.be/s3ZPWW5NOrw?t=2969
Sure Zeilinger's quote is measured, but the quote is what it is and he does indeed mention John 1:1 in a favorable light.,, Considering it is Zeilinger himself stating it, I will take that 'endorsement' anytime! Viola Lee goes on "he makes unfounded significance, I think of the “free will” test of Bell’s theorem," Actually atheists are the ones who have adamantly tried to claim that free will is merely an illusion. So finding that our free will choices are indeed a integral part of the measurement process is not a minor development. Zeilinger himself, in one of his interviews, (I can't recall which one right now), mentioned that he thought this particularly experiment was very significant experiment. Hossenfelder herself was so disturbed by the implications of this particular experiment that she ended up postulating 'superdeterminism', (where it is held that all of our choices were somehow 'super determined' prior to the Big Bang), to try to get around the implications of the experiment. Apparently they strongly disagree with Viola Lee's assessment that the test has "unfounded significance". Viola Lee goes on, "and of course there is a long part about how the Shroud of Turin, which has appeared countless times in his posts, is both true and significant. I’m not about to wade into that morass. But I’ll emphasize that it is all repetitive – there was nothing new there, and that is why I dismissed it." Again, HUH?? WHAT?? For crying out loud, you have waded into nothing. You entire post thus far has been nothing but a tour de force of hand-waving dismissiveness. NO reasons whatsoever have been given for why you personally find any of my arguments unpersuasive. You just state that you find them personally unpersuasive and expect your own personal opinion to carry the weight of making your case for you. That simply is not how it works Viola Lee. No matter how impressed with your own intellect you may be. Viola Lee goes on, "Ironically, you say we “rejected it on ideological grounds”. But the heart of BA’s argument is his imposition of Christian ideology on the physics, Many physicists of different religions grapple with some of the issues he discusses, including the theory of everything. I can assure you that an explanation that involves the agent causality of God, John 1:1, and all the other religious trappings, held together by Jesus and the Shroud of Turin, would never make a dint in the world of real physics." Well actually Viola Lee has already openly stated his hostility towards 'Christian ideology' in this thread when he got into a discussion with KF about divorce, so it hardly surprising that he would try to oppose Christianity at every turn,,,, but anyways, despite his severe animosity towards Christianity, modern physics, i.e. the world of 'real physics', just so happened to be born out of Christian metaphysics in medieval Christian Europe, thus it is not so much that I am 'imposing' Christian ideology onto physics as I am showing that the 'Christian ideology' from which modern physics originally sprang, is also very favorable to the ultimate resolution of modern physics by providing a VERY plausible resolution to the much sought after 'theory of everything'. Contrary to what Viola Lee believes, 'Christian ideology' and modern physics have a very intimate and entangled history together. Viola lee goes on "And last, you write, “My second is do they object to applying Kurt Gödel’s theorems to mathematical incompatibility between ETR and QM?” Godel’s theorem is a sophisticated argument involving sets of sets in pure mathematics that is about the natural number system. I don’t think it automatically transfers over to whether we can find some overriding mathematical theory that ties ETR and QM together. Just invoking Godel’s theorem as an arguments that a reconciliation is impossible, therefore Jesus, is ideology trumping facts at its finest." Again, Viola Lee apparently completely ignores the fact that Godel's incompleteness theorem has now, in fact, been brought into quantum physics.
Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics - December 9, 2015 Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,, It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, "We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s," added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. "So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists' point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description." http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html
Viola Lee goes on "P.S. At 70, BA says, “That development of bringing Godel’s incompleteness theorems into quantum physics is certainly far more devastating to finding a purely mathematical ‘theory of everything’ than, apparently, most theoretical physicists have yet realized.” Maybe that is because most theoretical physicists, if they are even aware of the issue, are unpersuaded that it means no unifying math for ETR and QM will be found, much less that the solution is acknowledging God and Jesus as the foundation of all science." Oh goody, now not only is Viola Lee, with out any reference, stating his own personal opinion as authoritative, but apparently Viola Lee has now mastered the art of mind reading and has deduced the exact reasoning for why any theoretical physicist may accept or reject bringing Godel’s incompleteness theorems into quantum physics. As I stated before, Viola Lee's entire post has been nothing but a tour de force of hand-waving dismissiveness.bornagain77_{January 29, 2021
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Q, communicative reason himself. KFkairosfocus_{January 29, 2021
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Viola Lee @70, Um, I tried to acknowledge that you were not immediately dismissive of the video, but that you were actually focused on the ethics of divorce. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. On your point that all the arguments have been touted before and thus are (apparently) boring to you doesn't make them irrelevant--but at least if you have an open mind. This presentation is actually the first time that I've seen Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems applied by respected physicists to the problems reconciling the mathematics of ETR and QM . I found that part of the presentation particularly interesting. Coincidentally, I had an informal discussion on this topic about a year ago with a mathematician who suggested the application of Gödel's theorems to the nature of Reality purely as a speculation and we left it there as such. Frankly, I've never read such a proposal in any of the books I've read on QM. Do you have any references that I could follow up on? There's very little crossover between the scientific method and concluding God as the agent of why anything exists at all versus non-existence. The reason is simple. All science is based on a methodical analysis of causality from things that can be measured. However, "Nothing" (i.e. non-existence) cannot be the Cause of Everything in the universe: space-time, mass-energy, probability, dark matter, dark energy, the laws of physics and so on. This is not possible because a cause is Something and not Nothing. Thus, a causal agent must exist outside of this universe--just as proponents of the multiverse speculation have been asserting for many years. But even they don't know whether this is a multiverse spawning universes or a cosmic turtle laying eggs. Or a sentient God. However, the causal agent cannot be defined scientifically by its effects alone, only that it must exist outside our universe and that there must ultimately be the first cause. That the agent for our existence might actually be the Son of God is a conclusion based on a relatively reasonable faith. Why do I consider it reasonable? As a Hebrew named Johanan wrote almost 2,000 years ago, "In the beginning was the Logos . . ." which we understand as the concept of logic, communication, and information. And this sentient Logos personified created and sustains everything. And this is where some of the quotes in the presentation about QM and the nature of reality come into focus. -QQuerius_{January 28, 2021
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Sev (attn VL): The first reality is, that string theory lacks empirical warrant and has run into trouble with runaway infinities that stymie the renormalisations that rescued earlier conundrums. That is a matter of public knowledge, not a distortion of what may be said by particular spokesmen. Further to this, the dominance of a controversial theory on budgets for empirical work and the decades of so far fruitless effort point to a potentially degenerative research programme. The trick of suggesting out of context, religiously motivated quotes to dismiss such concerns is a strawman fallacy. Next, there is on the table, at 14 above, another set of considerations that link to the nature of reality through the lens of foundations of mathematics i/l/o another key public fact, Wigner's astonishment at the uncanny effectiveness of Mathematics. The result of that is to draw out aspects of logic of being amenable to study through the logic of structure and quantity [= math] informed by the principle of distinct identity, core of logic and right reason. We see that there are indeed necessary world framework beings or entities that will extend to every actual or possible world, at the heart of Mathematics, starting with N,Z,Q,R,C,R*. That is a key result with deep import for not only why major aspects of Math are universal but also they establish by concrete example that necessary eternal entities that are framework to any world are real. That goes far beyond math, as it points to a finitely remote root world I labelled W_0 above, which is source for other worlds such as we inhabit. Finitely remote as a stepwise, finite stage successive causal sequence of periods cannot traverse an actually transfinite span. That world obviously has dynamical capability to source and sustain contingent [~14 BYA] worlds such as ours. Where, the evident fine tuning of our world fitted to C-chemistry aqueous medium cell based life, the alphanumeric and algorithmic code in such life, further elaboration of information rich functionally specific structures and more point to world-building powerful intelligence as core to the necessary being eternal entity at heart of W_0. This is then multiplied by the presence in our local world W_L, of inescapably morally governed creatures with first duties of right reason. Duties that appear in your attempted dismissals above: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc. Such Cicero-nian first duties are inescapable (even objections are forced to rely on them implicitly to have any persuasive traction), so too, inescapably true and self evident. Root reality has to account for that too, on pain of incoherence in the heart of our rational ensouled life. (Rational animality.) There is a bill of requisites in the root of reality to account for such moral government: inherent goodness inextricably entangled with utter wisdom. So, regardless of ideologies to the contrary, it is quite reasonable to identify the heart of W_0 as the God of ethical theism. Yes, beyond math into logic of being [= ontology] and metaphysics [= the philosophical study of reality and its core components], but not any particular theology or religion. Albeit, amenable to the Judaeo-Christian framework that has been so pivotal to our civilisation. In that context, there is nothing particularly reprehensible in examining a curious artifact of Antiquity, the Shroud of Turin. Given the Sudarion of Oviedo, the presence of reworked cloth and the presence of pollen and dirt tracing to Jerusalem, there is no particular implausibility in such being the cloth burial shroud for one certain Jesus of Nazareth. One whose death is surrounded by a mystery attested to by 500+ unbreakable witnesses, the resurrection of the dead. While the Shroud is not necessary evidence, it is reasonable evidence and the image on it does have remarkable properties. That a high energy event accounts for such, is not to be dismissed out of hand. Though, such is also challenging to duplicate, e.g. 3-d, x-ray like image formation with superficial degeneration of surface fibres. Presence of coins on eyes, flowers, blood and wounds consistent with an all too familiar history and the like. I do not stake my faith or the Christian faith on it, but it is a remarkable object, one that may indeed reflect a high energy event. So, I suggest a little less obviously ideologically convenient dismissiveness. KFkairosfocus_{January 28, 2021
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BA77, while, yes it is very expensive, high energy physics is our best bet at understanding the fundamental components of the physical world and reducing them to a coherent view of the whole. To be a Science, there is need for experiment, which requires a rather large high vacuum, with accelerators of particles. Such often use superconducting coils for magnets and of course there is attached a huge concentration of computing power; it is no longer a matter of stacks of photo plates sent up by balloon to capture natural high energy events and the days of a table top two- D's based cyclotron are long past. The energy bill alone is monstrous and the army of technicians and scientists will come with a serious payroll. It is no accident that the basic WWW technology came from a physicist there developing a means to share papers. That spin off alone probably justifies the accumulated cost; similar to the payoffs from the Moon Landing programme. The cost is big enough that in the '80's the US Gov't balked at funding a competing site, the super conducting super collider. The 40+ year effort that brought the Higgs boson to pose for the cameras is a high water mark, but one that tells us that this stuff now moves on a decadal scale. In that context the exposition of string theory since the 60's -- requiring comparatively small change to pay for the metaphorical chalk and chalk boards -- has put on the table a controversial and empirical support challenged theory, but one that is the candidate to beat. To date, we still await a stout stake through the heart. KFkairosfocus_{January 28, 2021
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Good post, Sev. I like this particularly:
Otherwise, listing cherry-picked quotes which do not necessarily reflect the considered opinions of the authors and leaping wildly across the many gaps in our understanding to unwarranted inferences of support for religious beliefs may be comforting personally but it is not scientific.
Viola Lee_{January 28, 2021
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I am not a theoretical physicist and neither, so far as know, is anyone else here. If this is true then it is also highly unlikely that anyone here is able to grasp the finer details of the esoteric mathematics from which relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory are constructed. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If the above is true then any comments or criticisms of these theories made here are based on highly simplified versions created in attempts to make them accessible to some extent to a lay audience. That being the case, pontificating on the strengths and weaknesses of the theories, their predictive power or lack thereof, their alleged over-reliance on the notion of beauty of mathematical constructs is highly presumptuous. Especially so when these theories are being judged by the extent to which they lend support to the religious presuppositions of some. If you are actually interested in the science then by all means quote the criticisms of Sabine Hossenfelder or Peter Woit, for example, but you should also give the proponents of the theories being criticized equal time to explain and defend their positions. Otherwise, listing cherry-picked quotes which do not necessarily reflect the considered opinions of the authors and leaping wildly across the many gaps in our understanding to unwarranted inferences of support for religious beliefs may be comforting personally but it is not scientific.Seversky_{January 28, 2021
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70 Hi Q. I'd like to clear some things up. First, I had nothing to do with calling BA's video retarded. Among other things, I've worked with handicapped children, and that is a slur that I would never use about anyone. Second, without any supporting evidence, you wrote, "That’s because they did not watch more than three minutes the video before rejecting it on ideological grounds." It is true that I didn't watch it because I don't like videos in general. Instead I read over the notes accompanying the video, so it is wrong to imply that I just summarily rejected it on ideological grounds. As to your comment, "It’s acknowledged that Viola Lee is actually focused on the ethics of divorce": that is because KF brought the subject up from another thread, and so I responded and we pursued the subject for a while. Threads often go off on tangents, but I didn't initiate the tangent. What I did say was that the video wasn't worth my time. The reason is that it was almost all repeats of quotes and points that he has made countless times before. For, instance, he has quoted Feynman about "brushing infinity under the rug" many times, and draws conclusions about the significance about that that I think are false. He often refers to Godel's incompleteness theorem but again finds significance in physics that I don't think applies. He's talked about the Copernican principle many times. He takes one particular view of the measurement that questioned by many eminent physicists, he's quoted Wienberg multiple time, he's quoted Zeilinger about the Word of God multiple times (and I've watched that video and it's not the endorsement BA wants it to be), he makes unfounded significance, I think of the "free will" test of Bell's theorem, and of course there is a long part about how the Shroud of Turin, which has appeared countless times in his posts, is both true and significant. I'm not about to wade into that morass. But I'll emphasize that it is all repetitive - there was nothing new there, and that is why I dismissed it. Ironically, you say we "rejected it on ideological grounds". But the heart of BA's argument is his imposition of Christian ideology on the physics, Many physicists of different religions grapple with some of the issues he discusses, including the theory of everything. I can assure you that an explanation that involves the agent causality of God, John 1:1, and all the other religious trappings, held together by Jesus and the Shroud of Turin, would never make a dint in the world of real physics. And last, you write, "My second is do they object to applying Kurt Gödel’s theorems to mathematical incompatibility between ETR and QM?" Godel's theorem is a sophisticated argument involving sets of sets in pure mathematics that is about the natural number system. I don't think it automatically transfers over to whether we can find some overriding mathematical theory that ties ETR and QM together. Just invoking Godel's theorem as an arguments that a reconciliation is impossible, therefore Jesus, is ideology trumping facts at its finest. P.S. At 70, BA says, "That development of bringing Godel’s incompleteness theorems into quantum physics is certainly far more devastating to finding a purely mathematical ‘theory of everything’ than, apparently, most theoretical physicists have yet realized." Maybe that is because most theoretical physicists, if they are even aware of the issue, are unpersuaded that it means no unifying math for ETR and QM will be found, much less that the solution is acknowledging God and Jesus as the foundation of all science.Viola Lee_{January 28, 2021
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Querius thanks for the support in face a such hostility. Although I have to correct the fact that I am not a Dr. in that I do not have a PhD. Which is perhaps a very good thing since, (since I don't have the respect that goes with having a PhD.), I have to be very careful to reference my facts very carefully. As you pointed out, "which of the quoted physicists are they willing to identify as “borderline retarded” or making “nothing new” assertions?" And I also like the second very important point that you pointed out, "My second is do they object to applying Kurt Gödel’s theorems to mathematical incompatibility between ETR and QM?" That development of bringing Godel's incompleteness theorems into quantum physics is certainly far more devastating to finding a purely mathematical 'theory of everything' than, apparently, most theoretical physicists have yet realized.bornagain77_{January 28, 2021
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KF states:
The issue with Higgs is not directly about strings,,,
Well I guess that is about as much of a concession from you that I will ever get that String Theory has failed miserably as the much hyped 'theory of everything'. Which has been precisely my point all along, i.e. "Like the proverbial missing piece of a puzzle that is finally found, whereas all other pieces that have been offered thus far as a correct solution for the 'theory of everything', i.e. string theory etc.., have failed miserably to fill that final hole in the puzzle. Christ’s resurrection from the dead fits a little too perfectly into the final hole of the puzzle to bring the puzzle to a satisfactory completion, KF, you go on to note that even though the Higgs is not about string theory per se, but is,,
,, about pace of experimental discoveries in modern high energy physics. Billions have to be mobilised it seems and there is now one test site.
Actually, I believe Smolin, Woit, and Hossenfelder are all on record as to questioning the wisdom of throwing good money after bad. They hold that the overall amount of money dedicated for scientific research is limited and far too much money is being spent chasing this particular rabbit down the hole. They hold that the money could be spent far more wisely in other areas of research that hold much more promise. From what I have seen from the minuscule returns from the LHC, despite the enormous expenditures, I agree with their sentiment. For me the problem is not about breaking particles into smaller and smaller pieces, i.e. pushing Humpty Dumpty off the wall harder and harder, but is about the fact that all the King's horses and all the King's men can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. i.e. It is about people recognizing the fact that string theory has failed miserably as that hoped for overarching mathematical 'theory of everything'. That a purely mathematical 'theory of everything', in which God is completely neglected, would fail should not be all that surprising. (Remember, as Hossenfelder pointed out, String Theory was suppose to 'explain away' the fine-tuning of the laws of nature.). Modern science, (as far as any mathematics that might describe this universe are concerned), has apparently completely forgotten its Christian roots in which any math that might describe this universe were held to be the 'thoughts of God', and has regressed back into the determinism of the Ancient Greeks in which math is held to have a necessary "Platonic" existence and that math does not have a contingent existence,, i.e. an existence that depends on the Mind of God. As Paul Davies noted, "Christians envisage God as upholding the natural order from beyond the universe, while physicists (today) think of their laws as inhabiting an abstract transcendent realm of perfect mathematical relationships."
Taking Science on Faith – By PAUL DAVIES – NOV. 24, 2007 Excerpt: All science proceeds on the assumption that nature is ordered in a rational and intelligible way. You couldn’t be a scientist if you thought the universe was a meaningless jumble of odds and ends haphazardly juxtaposed. ,,, the very notion of physical law is a theological one in the first place, a fact that makes many scientists squirm. Isaac Newton first got the idea of absolute, universal, perfect, immutable laws from the Christian doctrine that God created the world and ordered it in a rational way. Christians envisage God as upholding the natural order from beyond the universe, while physicists (today) think of their laws as inhabiting an abstract transcendent realm of perfect mathematical relationships. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/24/opinion/24davies.html
Philosophically speaking, this is a major step backwards for modern physicist to take. Modern science was only, and finally, able to gain a foothold in medieval Christian Europe with the quote-unquote "outlawing" of the deterministic and/or necessitarian view of the universe that had dominated the philosophical thought of the ancient Greeks.
The War against the War Between Science and Faith Revisited – July 2010? Excerpt: If science suffered only stillbirths in ancient cultures, how did it come to its unique viable birth? The beginning of science as a fully fledged enterprise took place in relation to two important definitions of the Magisterium of the Church. The first was the definition at the Fourth Lateran Council in the year 1215, that the universe was created out of nothing at the beginning of time. The second magisterial statement was at the local level, enunciated by Bishop Stephen Tempier of Paris who, on March 7, 1277, condemned 219 Aristotelian propositions, so outlawing the deterministic and necessitarian views of creation. These statements of the teaching authority of the Church expressed an atmosphere in which faith in God had penetrated the medieval culture and given rise to philosophical consequences. The cosmos was seen as contingent in its existence and thus dependent on a divine choice which called it into being; the universe is also contingent in its nature and so God was free to create this particular form of world among an infinity of other possibilities. Thus the cosmos cannot be a necessary form of existence; and so it has to be approached by a posteriori investigation. The universe is also rational and so a coherent discourse can be made about it. Indeed the contingency and rationality of the cosmos are like two pillars supporting the Christian vision of the cosmos.?http://www.scifiwright.com/2010/08/the-war-against-the-war-between-science-and-faith-revisited/
In fact, in ancient Greek thought, and apparently in the thought of the majority of present day theoretical physicists, “the mathematical realm is (seen as) a rival to God rather than a path to him.” As Edward Fesser recently explained, “There is also a very different answer, in which the mathematical realm is a rival to God rather than a path to him. According to this view, mathematical objects such as numbers and geometrical figures exist not only independently of the material world, but also independently of any mind, including the divine mind.”
KEEP IT SIMPLE by Edward Feser – April 2020 Excerpt: Mathematics appears to describe a realm of entities with quasi-divine attributes. The series of natural numbers is infinite. That one and one equal two and two and two equal four could not have been otherwise. Such mathematical truths never begin being true or cease being true; they hold eternally and immutably. The lines, planes, and figures studied by the geometer have a kind of perfection that the objects of our experience lack. Mathematical objects seem immaterial and known by pure reason rather than through the senses. Given the centrality of mathematics to scientific explanation, it seems in some way to be a cause of the natural world and its order. How can the mathematical realm be so apparently godlike? The traditional answer, originating in Neoplatonic philosophy and Augustinian theology, is that our knowledge of the mathematical realm is precisely knowledge, albeit inchoate, of the divine mind. Mathematical truths exhibit infinity, necessity, eternity, immutability, perfection, and immateriality because they are God’s thoughts, and they have such explanatory power in scientific theorizing because they are part of the blueprint implemented by God in creating the world. For some thinkers in this tradition, mathematics thus provides the starting point for an argument for the existence of God qua supreme intellect. There is also a very different answer, in which the mathematical realm is a rival to God rather than a path to him. According to this view, mathematical objects such as numbers and geometrical figures exist not only independently of the material world, but also independently of any mind, including the divine mind. They occupy a “third realm” of their own, the realm famously described in Plato’s Theory of Forms. God used this third realm as a blueprint when creating the physical world, but he did not create the realm itself and it exists outside of him. This position is usually called Platonism since it is commonly thought to have been Plato’s own view, as distinct from that of his Neoplatonic followers who relocated mathematical objects and other Forms into the divine mind. (I put to one side for present purposes the question of how historically accurate this standard narrative is.) https://www.firstthings.com/article/2020/04/keep-it-simple
Perhaps the most succinct quote on how the early Christian founders of modern science actually viewed any mathematics that might describe this universe is the following quote by Kepler which he made shortly after he discovered the mathematical laws of planetary motion.
"O, Almighty God, I am thinking Thy thoughts after Thee!" - Johannes Kepler - 1619
In fact, so foreign is the concept, now-a-days, that any mathematics that might describe this universe are the thoughts of God, that more than a few feathers were ruffled when Wigner, (and Einstein), stated that the applicability of mathematics to the universe was a 'miracle', (Einstein even disparaged 'professional atheists' in the process of calling it a miracle),,
The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 ?Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin’s process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,,?It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind’s capacity to divine them.,,,?The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html On the Rational Order of the World: a Letter to Maurice Solovine – Albert Einstein – March 30, 1952 Excerpt: “You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way .. the kind of order created by Newton’s theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the ‘miracle’ which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands. There lies the weakness of positivists and professional atheists who are elated because they feel that they have not only successfully rid the world of gods but “bared the miracles.” -Albert Einstein http://inters.org/Einstein-Letter-Solovine
Thus in conclusion, String Theory not only is a failed scientific theory because it predictions, in so far as we have been able to test them, have been falsified, but it also is a failed scientific theory because it has regressed back into the philosophical dead end of the Ancient Greeks in which math is seen, as Feser put it, as a rival to God rather than a path to him. Might it be too obvious to point out the fact that my quote-unquote 'theory' of Jesus Christ providing the correct solution for the much sought after 'theory of everything' does not suffer the from Feser's pointed criticism of being "a rival to God rather than a path to him"?
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77_{January 28, 2021
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Bornagain77 @36,
Steve Alten2, Viola Lee and Mike1962 have condemned the video referenced in the OP as being ‘retarded’ and/or ‘borderline retarded’ without giving a specific reason as to why they find it to be as such.
That’s because they did not watch more than three minutes the video before rejecting it on ideological grounds. It's acknowledged that Viola Lee is actually focused on the ethics of divorce. While Dr. Cunningham speaks slowly and stumbles over words, most of the video consists of quotes from physicists. If you’re impatient as I sometimes am, a transcript is located here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LgOgrJuWLXqgIAr6Au3MkfIilyV7-MDEz9dy5WniEHw/edit My first question is which of the quoted physicists are they willing to identify as “borderline retarded” or making “nothing new” assertions? My second is do they object to applying Kurt Gödel’s theorems to mathematical incompatibility between ETR and QM? Waiting with baited breath . . . -QQuerius_{January 28, 2021
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BA77, commenting is open to me again, so I note. The issue with Higgs is not directly about strings but about pace of experimental discoveries in modern high energy physics. Billions have to be mobilised it seems and there is now one test site. KFkairosfocus_{January 28, 2021
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KF, again, the Higgs prediction DID NOT arise from the String Framework. And to pretend as if it lends credence to the String framework is misguided at best. In fact, as I pointed out, the extreme fine-tuning of the Higgs boson itself created more problems than it solved for those who are beholden to String Theory. I am more than comfortable that I have stated my case clearly in post 61. Much like Darwinian evolution, if String Theory were a normal science instead of basically being a belief system, it would, because of its many failed predictions, now be considered falsified.bornagain77_{January 28, 2021
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BA77, my point of concern is that the Higgs Boson popped up after 40 years. With that on the table, I am not about to dismiss the String theory framework. I will also say that from my early days in 6th form, I saw the anomies connected to a point particle and felt this was idealisation. A string naturally has size and vibration modes that are quantised, with room for rolled up dimensions. I can see why it is appealing even before we go into the ways it ties together particles and space; I can live with a multiverse of some kind. I want to see a definite thick stake through the heart first before I rule it dead. Challenged, but not dead yet. KFkairosfocus_{January 28, 2021
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ET, at this point, the issue is to identify then refuse to feed the troll. That is a sad place to be but with now insistent resort to village atheist rhetoric that seems to be where we are with AS2. KFkairosfocus_{January 28, 2021
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TEST -- log in issueskairosfocus_{January 28, 2021
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Acartia Stevie:
My point is that if a God fearing person is told that the vengeful God she worships wishes to impregnate her, would she really feel that she had much choice in the matter?
Your "point" is a strawman.ET_{January 28, 2021
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KF ignores the fact that many of the predictions of String Theory now have been experimentally falsified and repeats his claim that string theory is merely being 'challenged' So to repeat, the following 2021 article points out that, ‘After years of searching and loads of accumulated data from countless collisions, there is no sign of any supersymmetric particle. In fact, many supersymmetry models are now completely ruled out, and very few theoretical ideas remain valid.’ And the article even goes on to state that “Where will physics go from here, in a universe without supersymmetry? Only time (and a lot of math) will tell.”
Where are all the squarks and gluinos? The future of supersymmetry is in serious doubt. – Jan 2021 Excerpt: The ATLAS collaboration, made up of hundreds of scientists from around the world, have released their latest findings in their search for supersymmetry in a paper appearing in the preprint journal arXiv. And their results? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. After years of searching and loads of accumulated data from countless collisions, there is no sign of any supersymmetric particle. In fact, many supersymmetry models are now completely ruled out, and very few theoretical ideas remain valid. While supersymmetry has enjoyed widespread support from theorists for decades (who often portrayed it as the obvious next step in advancing our understanding of the universe), the theory has been on thin ice ever since the LHC turned on. But despite those initial doubtful results, theorists had hoped that some model of tuning of the theory would produce a positive result inside the collider experiment. While not every possible model of supersymmetry has been ruled out, the future of the theory is in serious doubt. And since physicists have invested so much time and energy into supersymmetry for years, there aren’t a lot of compelling alternatives. Where will physics go from here, in a universe without supersymmetry? Only time (and a lot of math) will tell. https://www.livescience.com/no-signs-supersymmetry-large-hadron-collider.html
Scientifically speaking, that is simply devastating to a scientific theory and certainly does not speak of a scientific theory that is merely being 'challenged',, But anyways, KF goes on to hope that String Theory might yet be saved because of the verification of the existence of the Higgs boson. Yet, as Sabine Hossenfelder pointed out in her lecture that I referenced, the Higg's boson was not a prediction of String Theory, nor was it a prediction of the Standard model. Indeed, the prediction of the Higgs boson was a prediction that was made before the standard model was even finalized.
"But the only new particle that we indeed have seen was the Higgs boson which was predicted already before the completion of the standard model in the 1970s. And I have to emphasize that the prediction of the Higgs boson was not a prediction based on an argument from beauty. The Higgs boson was an entirely different kind of prediction. based on an argument from inconsistency. This was an old fashioned good prediction that turned out to work. Whereas all those 'beauty based predictions' (of String Theory) did not work." - How Beauty Leads Physics Astray – Hossenfelder – video (failed predictions of String Theory – 47:00 minute mark) https://youtu.be/Q1KFTPqc0nQ?t=2820
Moreover, besides the Higgs boson not being a prediction of String Theory, nor being a prediction of the Standard Model, the Higg's boson also presents its own 'fine-tuning' problems that defy explanations from string theory,
The 2 most dangerous numbers in the universe are threatening the end of physics - Jan. 14, 2016 Excerpt: Dangerous No. 1: The strength of the Higgs field,,, there's something mysterious about the Higgs field that continues to perturb physicists like Cliff. According to Einstein's theory of general relativity and the theory of quantum mechanics — the two theories in physics that drive our understanding of the cosmos on incredibly large and extremely small scales — the Higgs field should be performing one of two tasks, says Cliff. Either it should be turned off, meaning it would have a strength value of zero and wouldn't be working to give particles mass, or it should be turned on, and, as the theory goes, this "on value" is "absolutely enormous," Cliff says. But neither of those two scenarios are what physicists observe. "In reality, the Higgs field is just slightly on," says Cliff. "It's not zero, but it's ten-thousand-trillion times weaker than it's fully on value — a bit like a light switch that got stuck just before the 'off' position. And this value is crucial. If it were a tiny bit different, then there would be no physical structure in the universe." Why the strength of the Higgs field is so ridiculously weak defies understanding. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/two-most-dangerous-numbers-universe-194557366.html Of note, Harry Cliff is a particle physicist who works on the Large Hadron Collider at CERN
In fact, as Hossenfelder goes on to note, the prediction(s) from String Theory for the existence of new particles was a 'prediction' that was made in order to avoid the implications of the fine-tuning of the laws of nature. Specifically she said, “new particles must appear” in an energy range of about a TeV (ie accessible at the LHC) “to avoid finetuning.” … This was the argument why the LHC should see something new: To avoid finetuning and to preserve naturalness. I explained many times previously why the conclusions based on naturalness were not predictions, but merely pleas for the laws of nature to be pretty.",,,
"I must have sat through hundreds of seminars in which naturalness arguments were repeated. Let me just flash you a representative slide from a 2007 talk by Michelangelo L. Mangano (full pdf here), so you get the idea. The punchline is at the very top: “new particles must appear” in an energy range of about a TeV (ie accessible at the LHC) “to avoid finetuning.” … This was the argument why the LHC should see something new: To avoid finetuning and to preserve naturalness. I explained many times previously why the conclusions based on naturalness were not predictions, but merely pleas for the laws of nature to be pretty. Luckily I no longer have to repeat these warnings, because the data agree that naturalness isn’t a good argument. (“Pretty” as in ‘not-fine-tuned’?) My disbelief in naturalness used to be a fringe opinion and it’s gotten me funny looks on more than one occasion. But the world refused to be as particle physicists expected, naturalness rapidly loses popularity, and now it’s my turn to practice funny looks. The cube, it’s balancing on a tip and nobody knows why. In desperation they throw up their hands and say “anthropic principle”. Then they continue to produce scatter plots. … The naturalness arguments are eventually based on the idea that whatever a fundamental theory looks like, it does conform to this ideal: There’s one or only a few parameters. They are neither fine-tuned nor appear in unreasonably large ratios. We, the stuff we are made of, and our universe, is somehow “natural,” “average” or “mediocre.” However, if you continue to ask “why” at this point you’ll notice how the scientific basis crumbles away under your feet. Why should this be? Because very small parameters make you feel uneasy? Because you don’t find many parameters a satisfactory explanation? Because it’s not pretty? Because it smells like intelligent design?" - Sabine Hossenfelder - PhD Physics https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/after-the-multiverse-the-multiworse/#comment-653926
Thus, the Higgs boson, instead of bringing resolution to the 'fine-tuning problem' that String Theorists were, and are, trying to 'explain away', actually exasperated the 'fine-tuning problem' for them. Of course, the fine-tuning of the laws of nature directly implies the existence of a 'fine-tuner', i.e. of God, and, needless to say, predicting the existence of new particles simply because you don't like the implications of the fine-tuning of the laws of nature, and because you want to 'explain away' the fine-tuning of the laws of nature, is not to be considered a scientific prediction in the least, but is to be considered merely a philosophical prediction based on atheistic predispositions. Atheistic predispositions that wish to see the universe as being 'undesigned' rather than as being designed. Moreover, as Luke Barnes explained about extreme fine-tuning within the standard model itself, "Within this equation, there are twenty-six constants (laws of nature), describing the masses of the fifteen fundamental particles,,,, ,,, Compared to the range of possible masses that the particles described by the Standard Model could have, the range that avoids these kinds of complexity-obliterating disasters is extremely small. Imagine a huge chalkboard, with each point on the board representing a possible value for the up and down quark masses. If we wanted to color the parts of the board that support the chemistry that underpins life, and have our handiwork visible to the human eye, the chalkboard would have to be about ten light years (a hundred trillion kilometers) high.,,,"
The Fine-Tuning of Nature’s Laws - Luke A. Barnes - Fall 2015 Excerpt: Today, our deepest understanding of the laws of nature is summarized in a set of equations. Using these equations, we can make very precise calculations of the most elementary physical phenomena, calculations that are confirmed by experimental evidence. But to make these predictions, we have to plug in some numbers that cannot themselves be calculated but are derived from measurements of some of the most basic features of the physical universe. These numbers specify such crucial quantities as the masses of fundamental particles and the strengths of their mutual interactions. After extensive experiments under all manner of conditions, physicists have found that these numbers appear not to change in different times and places, so they are called the fundamental constants of nature. These constants represent the edge of our knowledge. Richard Feynman called one of them — the fine-structure constant, which characterizes the amount of electromagnetic force between charged elementary particles like electrons — “one of the greatest damn mysteries of physics: a magic number that comes to us with no understanding by man.” An innovative, elegant physical theory that actually predicts the values of these constants would be among the greatest achievements of twenty-first-century physics. Many have tried and failed. ,,, Tweaking the Constants Let’s consider a few examples of the many and varied consequences of messing with the fundamental constants of nature, the initial conditions of the universe, and the mathematical form of the laws themselves. You are made of cells; cells are made of molecules; molecules of atoms; and atoms of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Protons and neutrons, in turn, are made of quarks. We have not seen any evidence that electrons and quarks are made of anything more fundamental (though other fundamental particles, like the Higgs boson of recent fame, have also been discovered in addition to quarks and electrons). The results of all our investigations into the fundamental building blocks of matter and energy are summarized in the Standard Model of particle physics, which is essentially one long, imposing equation. Within this equation, there are twenty-six constants, describing the masses of the fifteen fundamental particles, along with values needed for calculating the forces between them, and a few others. We have measured the mass of an electron to be about 9.1 x 10^-28 grams, which is really very small — if each electron in an apple weighed as much as a grain of sand, the apple would weigh more than Mount Everest. The other two fundamental constituents of atoms, the up and down quarks, are a bit bigger, coming in at 4.1 x 10^-27 and 8.6 x 10^-27 grams, respectively. These numbers, relative to each other and to the other constants of the Standard Model, are a mystery to physics. Like the fine-structure constant, we don’t know why they are what they are. However, we can calculate all the ways the universe could be disastrously ill-suited for life if the masses of these particles were different. For example, if the down quark’s mass were 2.6 x 10^-26 grams or more, then adios, periodic table! There would be just one chemical element and no chemical compounds, in stark contrast to the approximately 60 million known chemical compounds in our universe. With even smaller adjustments to these masses, we can make universes in which the only stable element is hydrogen-like. Once again, kiss your chemistry textbook goodbye, as we would be left with one type of atom and one chemical reaction. If the up quark weighed 2.4 x 10^-26 grams, things would be even worse — a universe of only neutrons, with no elements, no atoms, and no chemistry whatsoever. ,,, Compared to the range of possible masses that the particles described by the Standard Model could have, the range that avoids these kinds of complexity-obliterating disasters is extremely small. Imagine a huge chalkboard, with each point on the board representing a possible value for the up and down quark masses. If we wanted to color the parts of the board that support the chemistry that underpins life, and have our handiwork visible to the human eye, the chalkboard would have to be about ten light years (a hundred trillion kilometers) high.,,, http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-fine-tuning-of-natures-laws
As should be needless to say, that is a rather gargantuan problem of fine-tuning that the laws of nature present to particle physicists, who are given to atheistic predispositions, to try to 'explain away' by merely postulating the existence of new 'natural' particles in String Theory. Moreover, as was pointed out previously, it simply makes no sense whatsoever to believe that a 'bottom up' explanation from particle physics will ever be capable of giving an adequate explanation for the laws of nature, much less ever be capable of giving an adequate explanation why the laws of nature are finely tuned.
"There cannot be, in principle, a naturalistic bottom-up explanation for immutable physical laws — which are themselves an ‘expression’ of top-down causation. A bottom-up explanation, from the level of e.g. bosons, should be expected to give rise to innumerable different ever-changing laws. By analogy, particles give rise to innumerable different conglomerations. Moreover a bottom-up process from bosons to physical laws is in need of constraints (laws) in order to produce a limited set of universal laws. Paul Davies: “Physical processes, however violent or complex, are thought to have absolutely no effect on the laws. There is thus a curious asymmetry: physical processes depend on laws but the laws do not depend on physical processes. Although this statement cannot be proved, it is widely accepted.” Saying that laws do not depend on physical processes, is another way of saying that laws cannot be explained by physical processes." - Origenes - pre uncommon descent
String theorists simply lack the proper footing to ever be able explain the laws of nature. As the old joke goes, 'you can't get there from here'. And as the previously cited extension of Godel's incompleteness into quantum physics stated, it is now proven that “even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,,” and that “the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.”
Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics – December 9, 2015 Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,, It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, “We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s,” added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. “So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists’ point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.” http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html
To repeat, and as should be needless to say, we can now be extremely confident that, mathematically speaking, the microscopic descriptions of quantum mechanics (and/or the standard model) will never be successfully extended to the account for the macroscopic descriptions of General Relativity (and/or of the laws of nature). To repeat, the ‘incompleteness’ and/or the insurmountable difficulty ‘lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.” With the bringing in of Godel’s incompleteness into quantum mechanics, this is NOT just some esoteric point about the philosophy of mathematics but is a concrete statement about physical reality and, more particularly, about the inability of mathematics to ever bridge the gap from a ‘complete’ microscopic description from quantum mechanics to a macroscopic description of General Relativity.. In short, the quest for a purely mathematical 'theory of everything' via String Theory is nothing less that a Alice in Wonderland pipe dream that belongs squarely in the fairy tale section at the library. Here are s few supplemental notes as to the 'top-down' explanations of Design advocates vs. the 'bottom-up' explanations of atheistic materialists, i.e. "bottom-up explanations which seek to avoid any implications of intelligent design.
Recognising Top-Down Causation - George Ellis Excerpt: Causation: The nature of causation is highly contested territory, and I will take a pragmatic view:?Definition 1: Causal Effect If making a change in a quantity X results in a reliable demonstrable change in a quantity Y in a given context, then X has a causal effect on Y.?Example: I press the key labelled “A” on my computer keyboard; the letter “A” appears on my computer screen.,,,?Definition 2: Existence If Y is a physical entity made up of ordinary matter, and X is some kind of entity that has a demonstrable causal effect on Y as per Definition 1, then we must acknowledge that X also exists (even if it is not made up of such matter).?This is clearly a sensible and testable criterion; in the example above, it leads to the conclusion that both the data and the relevant software exist. If we do not adopt this definition, we will have instances of uncaused changes in the world; I presume we wish to avoid that situation.,,, ,,,However there are many topics that one cannot understand by assuming this one-way flow of causation. The flourishing subject of social neuroscience makes clear how social influences act down on individual brain structure[2]; studies in physiology demonstrate that downward causation is necessary in understanding the heart, where this form of causation can be represented as the influences of initial and boundary conditions on the solutions of the differential equations used to represent the lower level processes[3]; epigenetic studies demonstrate that biological development is crucially shaped by the environment[4] What about physics? In this essay I will make the case that top-down causation is also prevalent in physics, even though this is not often recognised as such. This does not occur by violating physical laws; on the contrary, it occurs through the laws of physics, by setting constraints on lower level interactions. Excerpt: page 5: A: Causal Efficacy of Non Physical entities: Both the program and the data are non-physical entities, indeed so is all software. A program is not a physical thing you can point to, but by Definition 2 it certainly exists. You can point to a CD or flashdrive where it is stored, but that is not the thing in itself: it is a medium in which it is stored. The program itself is an abstract entity, shaped by abstract logic. Is the software “nothing but” its realisation through a specific set of stored electronic states in the computer memory banks? No it is not because it is the precise pattern in those states that matters: a higher level relation that is not apparent at the scale of the electrons themselves. It’s a relational thing (and if you get the relations between the symbols wrong, so you have a syntax error, it will all come to a grinding halt). This abstract nature of software is realised in the concept of virtual machines, which occur at every level in the computer hierarchy except the bottom one [17]. But this tower of virtual machines causes physical effects in the real world, for example when a computer controls a robot in an assembly line to create physical artefacts. Excerpt page 7: The assumption that causation is bottom up only is wrong in biology, in computers, and even in many cases in physics, for example state vector preparation, where top-down constraints allow non-unitary behaviour at the lower levels. It may well play a key role in the quantum measurement problem (the dual of state vector preparation) [5]. One can bear in mind here that wherever equivalence classes of entities play a key role, such as in Crutchfield’s computational mechanics [29], this is an indication that top-down causation is at play.,,, Life and the brain: living systems are highly structured modular hierarchical systems, and there are many similarities to the digital computer case, even though they are not digital computers. The lower level interactions are constrained by network connections, thereby creating possibilities of truly complex behaviour. Top-down causation is prevalent at all levels in the brain: for example it is crucial to vision [24,25] as well as the relation of the individual brain to society [2]. The hardware (the brain) can do nothing without the excitations that animate it: indeed this is the difference between life and death. The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone’s plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities. http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Ellis_FQXI_Essay_Ellis_2012.pdf ? How Does The World Work: Top-Down or Bottom-Up? - September 29, 2013 Excerpt: To get an handle on how top-down causation works, Ellis focuses on what's in front of all us so much of the time: the computer. Computers are structured systems. They are built as a hierarchy of layers, extending from the wires in the transistors all the way up to the fully assembled machine, gleaming metal case and all. Because of this layering, what happens at the uppermost levels — like you hitting the escape key — flows downward. This action determines the behavior of the lowest levels — like the flow of electrons through the wires — in ways that simply could not be predicted by just knowing the laws of electrons. As Ellis puts it: “Structured systems such as a computer constrain lower level interactions, and thereby paradoxically create new possibilities of complex behavior.” Ellis likes to emphasize how the hierarchy of structure — from fully assembled machine through logic gates, down to transistors — changes everything for the lowly electrons. In particular, it "breaks the symmetry" of their possible behavior since their movements in the computer hardware are very different from what would occur if they were just floating around in a plasma blob in space. But the hardware, of course, is just one piece of the puzzle. This is where things get interesting. As Ellis explains: “Hardware is only causally effective because of the software which animates it: by itself hardware can do nothing. Both hardware and software are hierarchically structured with the higher level logic driving the lower level events.” In other words, it's software at the top level of structure that determines how the electrons at the bottom level flow. Hitting escape while running Word moves the electrons in the wires in different ways than hitting escape does when running Photoshop. This is causation flowing from top to bottom. For Ellis, anything producing causes is real in the most basic sense of the word. Thus the software, which is not physical like the electrons, is just as real as those electrons. As Ellis puts it: “Hence, although they are the ultimate in algorithmic causation as characterized so precisely by Turing, digital computers embody and demonstrate the causal efficacy of non-physical entities. The physics allows this; it does not control what takes place. Computers exemplify the emergence of new kinds of causation out of the underlying physics, not implied by physics but rather by the logic of higher-level possibilities. ... A combination of bottom-up causation and contextual affects (top-down influences) enables their complex functioning.” The consequences of this perspective for our view of the mind are straightforward and radical: “The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone's plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities.” http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/09/29/225359504/how-does-the-world-work-top-down-or-bottom-up
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