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Darwinism and popular culture: Attacking Collins hurts science, Chris Mooney argues

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A friend draws my attention to “Defenders of the Faith: Scientists who blast religion are hurting their own cause.” by Chris Mooney and Sheril Kirshenbaum (Newsweek, July 14, 2009), in which they warn against new atheist attacks on Francis Collins:

The critics, though, have it exactly backward: the United States needs more scientists like Collins—researchers who show by their prominence and their example that a good scientist can still retain religious beliefs. The stunning irony in the longstanding tension between science and religion in America is that many scientists who merely claim to be defending rationality from religious fundamentalism may actually be turning Americans off to science, doing more harm to their cause than good.

The poster boy for the so-called New Atheist movement today is biologist Richard Dawkins, author of the bestselling book, The God Delusion. He and other New Atheists attack faith without quarter, and insist that science and religion are fundamentally irreconcilable. In the process, they are helping to keep U.S. society polarized over science and likely helping to make it still harder for many religious believers to accept scientific findings in areas like evolution.

This is all well-meaning rot, of course.

The new atheists are making sure that if even a bland, “let’s just saw off the differences” figure like Collins can’t be left in peace, just think what would happen to a Christian who took issues like the importance of human life seriously?

As for evolution: The fundamental unbelievability of many propositions asserted in the name of “evolution” attracts skepticism from growing numbers of intelligent lay people, hundreds of whom have shared their doubts/scoffing with me. Remember, what lay people hear is the big bazooms theory of human evolution and ridiculous hagiography of Darwin. Or the recent “Ida” circus. (Also here and here for more tents in the Ida circus.)

You needn’t know much to know that that stuff just isn’t plausible – “Ida” was savaged even by the popular press, almost the first instance I can recall for an icon of “evolution”.

Evolutionary biologists’ insistence on defending the whole whack makes people wonder – very advisedly, I may say – just how much else they front to the public is either poorly sourced or known to be false.

Comments
Upright BiPed By the way, do you have any examples of: “naturally-occurring complex algorithms where such analogous phenomena as a “stop” codon exist.” Thanks.
Human DNA.
So...Mr Charrington has nothing whatsoever to offer. He is both an ideological bigot and an ardent fan of circular reasoning. He makes no pretenses about the issue. His conclusions are the core of his assumptions (and it all makes perfect sense). He might as well say "dammit, because we said so". Anyone who cares about the observational details must be demanding too much. But, this is a topic of (S)cience...so he wants to be taken seriously. Perhaps, even admirably. - - - - - - - Mr Doodad, when you can show any empirical evidence whatsoever for your worldview, then I am willing to listen...until then, shut the front door.Upright BiPed
July 21, 2009
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90DegreeAngel, I have a suggestion: Make a 180 and get a life.GilDodgen
July 21, 2009
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Mr Charrington wrote: “If what you descibe was designed, any thoughts on when that particular design was implemented?” I wrote in to get some idea of how complex coordinated one off's could be best explained – not to speculate myself. Once unguided processes are ruled out, then it becomes the job of the entire scientific community to address these questions and provide answers from an ID perspective. Mr Charrington wrote: “I’d say the chances of that happening are about equal to the chance a baby has of learning how to control it’s limbs via trial and error.” Darwinists can at least speculate that the ability to learn to control limbs evolved over millions of years and use tautological arguments such as "if children had not developed this ability, then they would not have survived to reproduce". My point is that these arguments cannot be applied to one off's in which a wholesale reorganisation from the norm occurs. I would however agree that the chance of both these events happening are about equal, and that both are too tiny to have been expected to occur through an un-unguided process. Mr Charrington wrote: And why, if the designer was capable of such a thing, would it not just fix the problem rather then “rewire”? This is a theological question, not a scientific one. Your argument is theological and is based on assumptions about how God should behave i.e. why would a good God allow allow imperfections and mistakes. Mine is a scientific one. I am asking how Darwinism could ever account for the capacity of nerves and the brain to reorganize in this way.Alan
July 21, 2009
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JTaylor 07/21/2009 wrote: “Indeed, not only has Ms O’Leary never ever acknolwedged that Darwin provide any valuable insights or contributions,” It is still far too early to say what will remain of Darwins legacy when the dust settles. If anything, the range of phenomena which Darwinism was thought to explain is steadily shrinking, and that includes the sacred principle of common ancestry. Darwin himself thought that his theory would be “rubbish” if it required intelligent guidance. If the idea that phenomena can be found which truly are out of reach of unguided processes, and that design is real, then the need for evolution to proceed from one (or a few) initial lifeforms disappears. It is also possible that evolution may have occurred, but that the precise account may be forever inaccessible to science. Darwinism may appear with hindsight to have been a mirage which held back science for decades, or lead us into a dead end. It's just too early to say. I think that at the present stage in the game, it's better to let Darwinists promote the idea of evolution and for ID proponents to concentrate on disentangling the meaning of the word evolution from the strictly naturalistic sense that it has become chained to. To begin promoting an ID version of evolution at this stage would be premature, as even our understanding of how genes are involved in the production whole organisms is in its infancy. To go on to speculate at this stage on how those organism evolved in the first place, would be to make the same mistake as the darwinists, who are themselves waking up to the shocking realisation that they know virtually nothing about a problem they thought had been solved 150 yrs ago.Alan
July 21, 2009
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Am I wrong in thinking that the ability to hard-wire an eye to the opposite side of the brain and then to subsequently interpret the information correctly in a way that simulates normal vision is unlikely to have evolved through an undirected process.
I'd say the chances of that happening are about equal to the chance a baby has of learning how to control it's limbs via trial and error.Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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Alan, If what you descibe was designed, any thoughts on when that particular design was implemented? In the first cell? In the big bang? At the moment of conception? What kind of miracles will you invoke to explain it? And why, if the designer was capable of such a thing, would it not just fix the problem rather then "rewire"?Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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Cabal wrote: “I would like to believe in ID, I am just waiting for evidence that ‘Darwinian mechanisms’ cannot account for evolution.” For anyone doubting what the power of random mutation coupled with natural selection can achieve, please read this article: Half-brain girl sees all in one eye* ( BTW. I think that the above title is a misrepresentation which has been carelessly repeated and that what actually happened is as follows: The girls right hemisphere failed to develop in the womb, but the nerve fibres (from her right eye) went to her left hemisphere also – so both her eyes are functioning properly but the left hand side of the brain has somehow been wired to and can process both left and right inputs to give normal “stereo” vision.) Dr Lars Muckli, of the university's Centre for Cognitive Neuroimaging, said: "The brain has amazing plasticity but we were quite astonished to see just how well the single hemisphere of the brain in this girl has adapted to compensate for the missing half. I was hoping that one of the ID websites would pick up on this story to discuss whether this type of “astonishing” phenomena is better explained from an ID perspective than a Darwinian one. Am I wrong in thinking that the ability to hard-wire an eye to the opposite side of the brain and then to subsequently interpret the information correctly in a way that simulates normal vision is unlikely to have evolved through an undirected process. When such complex and coordinated phenomena appear as one off's, they must either make Darwinists scratch there heads and question the faith, or renew their faith in the miraculous power or the NDE to achieve miracles.Alan
July 21, 2009
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Upright BiPed
By the way, do you have any examples of: “naturally-occurring complex algorithms where such analogous phenomena as a “stop” codon exist.” Thanks.
Human DNA.Mr Charrington
July 21, 2009
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JTaylor, By the way, do you have any examples of: “naturally-occurring complex algorithms where such analogous phenomena as a “stop” codon exist.” Thanks.Upright BiPed
July 21, 2009
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JTaylor, "This does appear to the be the “official” line, but judging by the posts on the web site, I’m not sure it is followed." What are the scare quotes on the word "official" for? And what is this about a line? Perhaps you might consider backing off the hyperbole and simply accepting that what ID stands for is what happens to be in the (empirical, observable) physical evidence - which is a serious and intractable challenge to the idea that chance and necessity can create such phenomena as the symbol system within DNA. "One only has to look at the posts from Cornelius Hunter and Denyse O’Leary to see that there appears to be a deep disdain for evolution and Darwinism." Perhaps some people (who have stopped trying to figure out a way to patch together a scenario where chance can organize complex disperate objects) have grown tired of the abuse they receive for doing so. Uhm....what is considered an esteemed biologist, a university professor, jabbed a nail through a catholic eucharists, threw some coffee grounds over it in his trash can, and took pictures for a website laughingly devoted to (S)cience. The remainder of the educated world didn't raised an eyebrow. What was it that you were saying? "Yes, I hear that ID is not intended to replace evolution - but neither have I heard anybody put forward a framework or hypothesis that would integrate ID or evolution." Firstly, ID is not intended to do anything but acknowledge what is evident about the mechanisms that we employ in order to explain the natural world. If you haven't found anyone willing to talk about evolution in light of design then you haven't been looking -or- you've been in conversations with people who have absolutely no intention whatsoever of allowing the evidence for design to speak for itself (which is vitually every discusiion on the board). "So I think when people claim ID is anit-evolution, there is actually good reason for making that statement." Only for the willfully ignorant or the ideologue. Which are you?Upright BiPed
July 21, 2009
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Gil, Don't give up again!!!! I love your ideas about modeling systems! As I stated on another thread I teach programming to vacation bible home schoolers. This week we are modeling roller coasters and I have special permission from the park to have the kids program their roller coaster simulations while actually riding the roller coaster. Our control group in this little comparison study will use laptops at the base of the ride and remain fairly stationary. We have hypothesized that those on the roller coaster will end up with more accurate models/simulations than those at the base. This was inspired by your ideas so thank you!!!90DegreeAngel
July 21, 2009
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Cabal wrote: "I would like to believe in ID, I am just waiting for evidence that 'Darwinian mechanisms' cannot account for evolution." The central thesis of the neo-Darwinian synthesis is that a series of small changes to a species over time, each or which enhances the fitness of the organism, can eventually result in major changes, such as new body plans, new organs and organ systems, or new processes (such as blood clotting or insect metamorphosis). There is no evidence that this thesis is true. It has never been observed in nature, nor in the laboratory, in spite of decades of observation of generations of bacteria or genetic abuse of innocent fruit flies. And it is not supported by the fossil record, despite what most evolutionists believe. The fossil record shows that life has evolved, certainly. What it does not show is that the Darwinian mechanism is responsible. If the central thesis were true, then we should see some examples somewhere in the record of an organism slowly changing, incremental step by Darwinian incremental step, into something truly new. This is precisely what we don't see. There is not a single instance. We do not see fish fins slowly morphing into metatarsal limbs, or reptilian scales slowly changing into feathers, or the forelimbs of some mouse like creature slowly evolving into bat wings, or indeed any other such macro-evolutionary change. Not one instance. I am not saying, by the way, that this proves that Darwinian mechanisms cannot account for these supposed changes. My claim is simply that there is no evidence. There is no evidence that Darwiniam mechanisms can explain macro-evolution.Bruce David
July 21, 2009
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Upright BiPed: "Again, ID is not anti-evolution, ID is a challenge to chance and necessity being the organizing force behind Life." This does appear to the be the "official" line, but judging by the posts on the web site, I'm not sure it is followed. One only has to look at the posts from Cornelius Hunter and Denyse O'Leary to see that there appears to be a deep disdain for evolution and Darwinism. Indeed, not only has Ms O'Leary never ever acknolwedged that Darwin provide any valuable insights or contributions, but seems to have a personal vendatta against the man (personally I find it repetetive and it seems to do little to move the conversation on). But if ID is not anti-evolution, why is there not more discussion here of a hypothesis that would integrate both Intelligent Design and the aspects of evolution that ID supporters agree on? Perhaps, something like "IDE" - Intelligently Designed Evolution? This is what I constantly find so difficult to grasp - when you examine ID, although some of the ideas are intriguing, you're struck right away over how partial and incomplete ID really is. Yes, I hear that ID is not intended to replace evolution - but neither have I heard anybody put forward a framework or hypothesis that would integrate ID or evolution. So I think when people claim ID is anit-evolution, there is actually good reason for making that statement.JTaylor
July 21, 2009
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On a previous thread (discussing the stop codon within DNA) I asked for an empirical example of: "naturally-occurring complex algorithms where such analogous phenomena as a “stop” codon exist." Can any of the materialists on thread help out with this? Thanks.Upright BiPed
July 21, 2009
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Cabal et al,
It seems to me that ID theory has a long way to go before it can replace the theory of evolution as it stands today.
This herring would, of course, make more sense if ID was to be a replacement for the TOE. ID is about the recognition of design, and does not say that living things do not adapt and change over time. ID is a challenge to the mechanisms of chance and necessity - which have been willfully mis-used to explain phemomena in ways that fundamentally contradict what we already know of the mechanisms of chance and necessity. This willful misuse of chance and necessity is not done in the name of science, or in the defense of evidence or the reliance on rationality, but in order to provide cover for a socio-political ideology (worldview). In other words, its the opposite of science.
While evolutionary theory points to evidence and have a lot to say about how and when, I find very little factual content in ID theory.
Again, ID is not anti-evolution, ID is a challenge to chance and necessity being the organizing force behind Life. To explain the organization within living tissue, one must deal with the facts. What is it that empirically suggests that chance and necessity can organize something like the symbol system within DNA? What is it that rationally suggests that chance and necessity can organize something like the symbol system within DNA? Answer: Absofreakinglutely Nothing.
Is life reducible to “ultra-high-tech-information-processing systems”? While genetics and heredity is something everyone can understand.
Genetics and heredity are actualized in the genome by information processing. Are you sure you understood that?
I would like to believe in ID, I am just waiting for evidence that “Darwinian mechanisms” cannot account for evolution.
Oddly enough, ID proponents are still waiting on evidence that it can.Upright BiPed
July 21, 2009
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#7 @GilDodgen,
the thesis that Darwinian mechanisms can account for ultra-high-tech information-processing systems.
It seems to me that ID theory has a long way to go before it can replace the theory of evolution as it stands today. While evolutionary theory points to evidence and have a lot to say about how and when, I find very little factual content in ID theory. Is life reducible to “ultra-high-tech-information-processing systems”? While genetics and heredity is something everyone can understand. I would like to believe in ID, I am just waiting for evidence that “Darwinian mechanisms” cannot account for evolution.Cabal
July 21, 2009
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In response to "just think what would happen to a Christian who took issues like the importance of human life seriously?" from the original post. As a non-Christian who is nonetheless deeply spiritual, I just want to state for the record that I find the Christian assumption that only anti-abortionists value "the importance of human life", frankly, condescending and insulting. Right-to-lifers almost always frame the issue in those terms: opposition to abortion is about valuing the sanctity of human life, and in so doing, they obscure the real issue. Virtually no one in this country is in favor of allowing murder to go unpunished. In other words, everyone values the "sanctity of human life". Why, then, is there such disagreement about abortion? I submit that the issue is NOT whether human life is important, it is, rather, at what point does a human life begin. Unless and until right-to-lifers understand that people who support a woman's right to choose do so not because they don't value human life, but rather because they simply don't agree that a fertilized egg is a human being, there will never be any hope of reconciliation between the two camps. My personal view, based on my own spiritual understanding, is that a fetus does not become a human being until a soul takes up residence in the body (and I believe that souls exist eternally and thus independently of the bodies they inhabit), and that this cannot happen until the developing brain is complex enough for the soul to meld with it. This doesn't happen until some time in the third trimester. Therefore, any abortion prior to the third trimester has killed an animal, not a human being, and thus is not murder. I don't write this to convince anyone. Rather, my purpose is to demonstrate that the issue is not between those who value the "sanctity of human life" and those who don't. It is between those who believe that a human being is created at conception and those who believe that it happens later in the process or at birth. The very fact that at least half the population of this country accept a woman's right to choose is evidence not that people are immoral, but rather that they don't agree that an embryo is a human being. It would be a service to us all if those who oppose abortion would stop implying that those of us who support free choice in the matter are immoral monsters. Such rhetoric only polarizes the two sides; it does nothing to promote any kind of reconciliation.Bruce David
July 20, 2009
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I, for one, have essentially given up as a result of the infestation of UD by alchemists like Kellogg and others of his ilk...
Where is Mr Kellogg these days anyway? I obviously have major disagreements with him, but he seemed like an interesting fellow.herb
July 20, 2009
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StuartHarris: Where did all the other bloggers at UD go? I, for one, have essentially given up as a result of the infestation of UD by alchemists like Kellogg and others of his ilk, who continue to attempt to defend the thesis that Darwinian mechanisms can account for ultra-high-tech information-processing systems. I have a high boredom threshold, but it does have limits.GilDodgen
July 20, 2009
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Ms O'Leary certainly does appear to be on a proliferic run. But I think I'd like to see some more in-depth analysis on her part, and for her to flex her journalistic muscles a bit more (rather than the "drive by journalism" style of the last couple of weeks postings). For example in the OP here, I was hoping that she would provide some commentary of her own on the whole science-religion issue. Perhaps some thoughts on how she thinks the debate should proceed or more of an indepth critique of some of the comments by Mooney and Kirschenbaum. Instead it appears Ms O'Leary just wanted to use this piece as an launching pad to do some of the evolution-bashing that seems to be typical of her writing of late (even with some of the same links she has used before). It's just beginning to seem very repetitive and I'm wondering if Ms O'Leary has actually anything positive or constructive to say? No offence but increasingly many of her posts are starting to come across, as well, kind of whiney? Perhaps instead of denigrating evolution so often, how about some pieces on the latest state of ID research, or perhaps a round-up of the latest ID books, or ID conferences, or how ID should proceed forward on the education front? It feels like it's been a while since anybody here wrote about any new ID research.JTaylor
July 20, 2009
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Oh yes, I almost forgot. Keep them coming, O'Leary.Mapou
July 20, 2009
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DATCG:
All you children are belong to us.
ahahaha... I love it. Thanks for injecting some delightfully irreverent humor into the discussion.Mapou
July 20, 2009
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shhhhh.... the evil IDer's are off in special, super duper secret meetings at a deep underground laboratory, making final preparations to take over the scientific world with a new secret Darwinian-to-IDist conversion ingredient. This new ingredient will be sprinkled on every McDonalds burgers and in every Starbucks coffee around all university campuses. It is an odorless, tasteless concoction that can look like salt, cinnamon or brown sugar. It will turn all Darwinians into raving mad evangelicals for ID. This ingredient was intelligently designed to evolve over time so that every classroom across America will be filled with its noxious activity of wedgy-itus. Students will suddenly challenge teachers to provide evidence of Darwin's theory of gradualism and a complete fossil record of transitions in the Darwinian TOL. They will begin to ask logical questions demanding answers of just-so stories. No longer will they accept ficional accounts of Dino-Bird stories. Chaos will ensue and the end of science will be at hand! No more Doctors, Scientist, Mathematicians or Engineers! Bwwwaaahahahahahahahahahaha.... All you children are belong to us. All you children are belong to us. All you children are belong to us. Nanu nanu. shhhhhh.... shhhhh..... this memo is not from North Korea. DATCG
July 20, 2009
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Wow, we made it. This has now completely become the O'Leary site. There are no posts on the main page posted by anyone but the ubiquitous O'Leary. Yaaaay!bFast
July 20, 2009
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Where did all the other bloggers at UD go? The site seems to have become an almost exclusive place for Denise O'Leary. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy her posts, but five or six a day from one person is a bit much and pushes everything else below the fold. Also O'Leary's and other posts are increasingly just links to external stuff rather than original commentary.StuartHarris
July 20, 2009
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