VIDEO: A look at the ATP Synthase in action, courtesy Discovery Institute (and Wikipedia)

Bioenergetic Processes of Cyanobacteria Check out Chapter 10. ATP Synthase: Structure, Function and Regulation of a Complex Machine An entire chapter. :) ATP Synthase heaven! Mung

CR: The key issues are in the C1 - 5 factors. Adapting things from one purpose to another is not a simple business, especially in a context of automated self assembly. KF kairosfocus

And there is more:

Rotary Motors Evolution has generated not only an exquisite variety of translational motors, but also motors whose motions are rotational. Two of the most widely studied examples of rotary motors are the bacterial flagellar motor and ATP synthase... ATP synthase is one of the central powerhouses of living cells, found in the inner membrane of bacterial cells and also in the mitochondria of eukaryotic cells. It is an amazing molecular machine that is constructed of two different rotary motors connected to a common drive shaft. The F0 motor of the ATP synthase is similar to the flagellar rotary motor, in that it uses the energy stored in the transmembrane gradient of hydrogen ions to rotate. The F1 motor uses ATP hydrolysis to rotate in the opposite direction. Under normal circumstances, when the transmembrane electrochemical gradient is strong, the F0 motor generates more torque than the F1 motor, and so the F0 motor forces the F1 motor to rotate in reverse, and thereby synthesize ATP from ADP plus inorganic phosphate. However, if the transmembrane electrochemical gradient is weak, the balance can tilt in the other direction, and the F1 motor will generate more torque than the F0. Under these circumstances, the coupled motor uses ATP hydrolysis to pump hydrogen ions out of the cell. - Physical Biology of the Cell, 2e (p. 634)

They forget to mention how evolutiondidit. =P Mung

"And the science that backs up this wild speculation is…?"

We find similar parts in other machines.

I can no longer say evolutionists believe in magic. Even magic has a magician.

That would make a good tagline. Chance Ratcliff

Yup. If we just take this subunit here, and this one here, and this one here, and jostle them about vigorously, voila! ATP Synthase! And the science that backs up this wild speculation is...? So we have this motor part here, and it was managing quite fine without this stator, and we have this cell here, and it was managing just fine without the ATP generated by an as yet non-existence ATP Synthase, and we have this membrane here, and this proton gradient... I can no longer say evolutionists believe in magic. Even magic has a magician. Mung

Folks: There is the usual just so first there was something else then there was a cobbling together story:

[Q:] ATP Synthase is ubiquitous throughout life on earth and so most probably evolved within the last universal common ancestor (LUCA) before that lineage diversified into the various kingdoms of life. It is suggested that the functional domains comprising the ATP Synthase complex were cobbled together from pre-existing sub-units, each with with a related activity (e.g. the union of a proton motor with a DNA Helicase with ATPase activity), which seems reasonable, although a bit vague in the details [--> unwitting shades of Behe's observation on evolutionary stories on origin of IC systems!]. The fact that a primitive ATP Synthase [--> What's primitive about it? But of course, that word suggests, crude, simple, lashed together etc . . . ] arose in the first place suggests that ATP already had a central role in cellular metabolism and so begs the question, what preceded ATP Synthase in the role of generating ATP in the LUCA cell? . . . . [A:] There are metabolic processes in which ATP is synthesised without the involvement of ATP synthase. The best examples are, in fact, two steps in the glycolytic pathway, catalysed by phosphoglycerate kinase and pyruvate kinase. This is why, in the absence of any aerobic metabolism [--> and how did such a complex system vital tot he life of aerobic organisms come about?], many organisms (like yeast for example) can grow quite happily, producing two molecules of ATP for each molecule of glucose that is metabolised. Presumably this process is what enabled ATP to gain its central role in energy metabolism without any need for an ATP synthase.

What is going on yet again, is the imposition of the a priori evolutionary materialist framework. On that f/w, the gaps are filled with vague just so narratives and promissory notes, "good enough" to keep going on the presumed credit in the system as a whole. Lewontinian a priori materialism, anyone? To which I say, a system based on a towering pile of IOU's leading a boom is building up to a bust! Let's not forget Menuge's challenges C1 - 5 for origin of any IC system (presented for the flagellum but applicable far more broadly) and what this implies about such lash-up narratives:

For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met: C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly. (Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)

Until we see these five criteria addressed on empirical evidence, we should not take the credit of such IOU's at all, as in rubbery documents tend to bounce. KF kairosfocus

So many AAA ATPases

Protein degradation within a cell is essential for protein turnover, for regulatory control, and for quality control to remove incorrectly folded or damaged proteins. However, a cell must be able to tightly regulate which proteins are degraded to avoid removing proteins vital to cellular function, and to cope with the ever-changing protein requirements within cells. The proteasome is responsible for selective protein degradation within cells, degrading only those proteins that are marked for destruction. The proteins targeted are often short-lived molecules, such as regulatory proteins that are controlled in part through rapid synthesis and degradation. Proteins are selected for degradation by the proteasome through an ubiquitin-tagging system, a highly regulated process whereby a chain of small ubiquitin proteins are covalently attached to a condemned protein. However, some proteins can be degraded by proteasomes without the ubiquitin tag. The breakdown of proteins by proteasomes is an ATP-dependent process. Proteasomes make use of a specialised family of ATPases known as AAA ATPases (ATPases Associated with various cellular Activities).

Will it never end!?!? Mung

Ah yes, the unguided miracle! Now if that doesn't require a leap of wishful thinking I don't know what does.

The database details a comprehensive IUBMB approved classification system for membrane transport proteins known as the Transporter Classification (TC) system. The TC system is analogous to the Enzyme Commission (EC) system for classification of enzymes, except that it incorporates both functional and phylogenetic information. Descriptions, TC numbers, and examples of over 600 families of transport proteins are provided. Functional and Phylogenetic Classification of Membrane Transport Proteins

Mung

"There is an entire family of the things!"

But doesn't that demonstrate that they are all related in evolutionary history, hence evolution is true? What other unguided options exist??? Chance Ratcliff

"ATP Synthase – RCSB PDB-101"

What a great read. More quotes:

ATP synthesis is composed of two rotary motors, each powered by a different fuel. The motor at the top, termed F0, an electric motor. It is embedded in a membrane (shown schematically as a gray stripe here), and is powered by the flow of hydrogen ions across the membrane. As the protons flow through the motor, they turn a circular rotor (shown in blue). This rotor is connected to the second motor, termed F1. The F1 motor is a chemical motor, powered by ATP. The two motors are connected together by a stator, shown on the right, so that when F0 turns, F1 turns too.

Each motor is also a generator, and so each part plays its role depending upon the context: generating ATP or pumping ions back across the membrane.

So why have two motors connected together? The trick is that one motor can force the other motor to turn, and in this way, change the motor into a generator. This is what happens in our cells: the F0 motor uses the power from a proton gradient to force the F1 motor to generate ATP. In our cells, food is broken down and used to pump hydrogen ions across the mitochondrial membrane. The F0 portion of ATP synthase allows these ions to flow back, turning the rotor in the process. As the rotor turns, it turns the axle and the F1 motor becomes a generator, creating ATP as it turns.

If ATP and thus ATP synthase is required for all major cellular processes to run, hence replication, then by necessity, this enzyme antedates Darwinian evolution. This means we need a non-Darwinian process capable of building such motors to explain this in a materialistic framework. However we're told that it's the very power of Darwinian evolution which explains the building such structures. If non-Darwinian processes can build them, then Darwinian processes are superfluous, are they not? Shouldn't Occam's razor apply here? This seems fundamentally perplexing. We find, if naturalism is true, that there is a non-Darwinian process for generating biological nanotechnology. Why is Darwinian evolution required in order to do the same? Are there indeed twin forces, unrelated, neither elucidated, which perform the same or similar tasks of protein engineering? Can someone disabuse me of my confusion? Chance Ratcliff

And of course, this gets us back to the subject of Hydrogen and thence to Fine-Tuning of the Cosmos for Life. A teleological idea. :) Mung

ATP synthase is one of the wonders of the molecular world. ATP synthase is an enzyme, a molecular motor, an ion pump, and another molecular motor all wrapped together in one amazing nanoscale machine.

ATP Synthase - RCSB PDB-101

The energy currency used by all cells from bacteria to man is adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Every process within an organism – DNA and protein synthesis, muscle contraction, active transport of nutrients and ions, neural activity, maintenance of osmosis, carbon fixation – requires a source of ATP.

ATP Synthase There is an entire family of the things!

ATPases are membrane-bound ion channels (actually transporters, as they are not true ion channels) that couple ion movement through a membrane with the synthesis or hydrolysis of a nucleotide, usually ATP. Different forms of membrane-associated ATPases have evolved over time to meet specific demands of cells. These ATPases have been classified as F-, V-, A-, P- and E-ATPases based on functional differences. They all catalyse the reaction of ATP synthesis and/or hydrolysis.

The ATPase Family Mung

ATP Synthase Gradient: The Movie Mung

KF, thanks much. Understood. Chance Ratcliff

CR: Pardon, note adjustment. The problem is not merely sensibilities, if we leave known broken windows lying around here at UD -- on track record -- it invites vandals who hardly need an excuse to carry on in ways that have to be seen to be believed then demand to know why you object to their behaviour when you tolerate XXXXXXXXX when s/he falls off the wagon. KF kairosfocus

KF, with regard to my comment at #27, I will try to be more aware to your sensitivities when I post on your threads in the future. It was not my intention to be disrespectful. Might I ask however that you revise your edit to the contents in such a way as to avoid doing violence to the meaning of it? Allow me to make the following suggestion:

Lol. Especially not. Not when the real story is so $#%& utterly remarkable.

Chance Ratcliff

Mung,

"I think it depends on the pump."

On further reflection this makes perfect sense. It couldn't be the case that every mechanism for charging the gradient uses ATP. However I'm reminded that ATP synthase is itself a proton pump that runs on ATP (it's dual purposed). Isn't evolution grand? Chance Ratcliff

Chance:

So the proton pumps push the protons back across the membrane, to maintain the gradient. I’m not yet sure what powers the pumps. I wonder if it’s ATP.

I think it depends on the pump. Wikipedia:

In this process, the complex translocates four protons across the inner membrane per molecule of oxidized NADH, helping to build the electrochemical potential used to produce ATP.

Oh, and lest we forget. The membrane is also impermeable to ATP. So if we're talking mitochondria, there has to be a channel to get the ATP out of the mitochondrion. Mung

Chance Ratcliff posted this:

There is simply no reason to ascribe creative power to a putative “selective” force when that which needs to be explained, a massively complex system capable of replication with variation, must by necessity precede it.

What is your explanation for the "massively complex system"? timothya

KF, yes, well worth adding that one. Of course, Darwin, et al, could not have imagined the technological sophistication of this protoplasm. There is simply no reason to ascribe creative power to a putative "selective" force when that which needs to be explained, a massively complex system capable of replication with variation, must by necessity precede it. Chance Ratcliff

The second animation has been added to the OP, thanks. KF kairosfocus

Folks: Interesting onward comments and a useful vid. I wonder what Darwin et al would have made of the discovery of a rechargeable battery molecule in the heart of a lot of cell based life manufactured using an enzyme that is to all intents and purposes a complex reversible, electric motor driven rotary process unit. KF kairosfocus

Thanks for those links Mung: Proton Pump, Permeability Barrier, and Solute Movement. Permeability Barrier:

There are four types of carrier-mediated transport systems in procaryotes. The carrier is a protein (or group of proteins) that functions in the passage of a small molecule from one side of a membrane to the other side. A transport system may be a single transmembranous protein that forms a channel that admits passage of a specific solute, or it may be a coordinated system of proteins that binds and sequentially passes a small molecule through the membrane. Transport systems have the property of specificity for the solute transported. Some transport systems transport a single solute with the same specificity and kinetics as an enzyme. Some transport systems will transport (structurally) related molecules, although at reduced efficiency compared to their primary substrate. Most transport systems transport specific sugars, amino acids, anions or cations that are of nutritional value to the bacterium.

The transport proteins use the energy from ATP hydrolysis to power their activity. From Proton Pump:

Proton pumps are protein complexes that move the protons generated during oxidation reactions across the cell membrane. As the protons move through the proton pump, they begin to build up on the outside of the membrane. The protons accumulate on the outside of the membrane creating a concentration gradient. The membrane is not permeable to the charged hydrogen ions, and they cannot diffuse back across the membrane. Instead they must pass through a special channel. The protons move through this special channel which is the enzyme, ATP synthase. This enzyme uses the energy derived from the movement of these protons to convert ADP into ATP. The movement of protons down a concentration gradient provides the energy for ATP synthase to form ATP. This mechanism of producing ATP is called chemiosmosis.

So the proton pumps push the protons back across the membrane, to maintain the gradient. I'm not yet sure what powers the pumps. I wonder if it's ATP. Chance Ratcliff

Lol. Especially not. Not when the real story is so xxxx utterly remarkable. Truth is stranger than ... evolution. Chance Ratcliff

Imagining some simple membrane enclosing some RNAs doesn’t even qualify as good imaginative fiction.

Not even good imaginative science fiction? Mung

Heh. Solute Movement:

The presence of membrane proteins make biological membranes much more permeable to certain solutes than are simple artificial phosophlipid bilayers.

Chance Ratcliff

Cells that had a membrane that could allow for a proton gradient were more likely to replicate than those that didn’t?

That's evolution. It's synonymous with magic. Of course, one must be able to imagine that there existed simpler structures which could also replicate, right on down to some enigmatic and indiscernible self-organization principle. In other words, we know evolution occurred, so we just need to discover the way in which it was brought about through unguided processes. Science is working on it. Much research is being done. :p

So it all comes back to the cell membrane, my favorite topic, haha. Imagine that.

If permease is any indication, the function of the membrane to regulate materials transport is highly dependent on enzymes which perform the task. This would also implicate signalling mechanisms for gene expression. Imagining some simple membrane enclosing some RNAs doesn't even qualify as good imaginative fiction. Chance Ratcliff

Thanks for that. I was just looking at the NDSU channel on Youtube. Particularly, the video for the lac operon in E. coli, which codes for three proteins, one of which, permease, is specifically purposed for binding to the membrane and aiding the importation of lactose. It's really quite remarkable. The expression of the lac operon is inducible by the presence of lactose, which can, in small quantities, enter the cell and bind to a repressor protein on the lac operon, triggering gene expression and the production of the proteins responsible for processing lactose, including the permease, which imports the lactose into the membrane. It's a signalling mechanism, in which the substance to be processed becomes a chemical trigger for the expression of genes which code for the proteins that import and process the lactose. Chance Ratcliff

NDSU Virtual Cell Animation Collection HT: ba77 Mung

Yes, my grandfather repaired antique clocks of which I still have a couple that are weight driven. Much the same concepts I think. We're not talking about energy in the matter that makes up the weight as being what provides the energy needed by the clock. It's not "metal energy" or even "stone energy." Once the weight reaches the base of the clock it has to be wound to bring the weight back up. I would think that in order for there to be a proton gradient the protons can't be allowed to just diffuse through the membrane. So at a minimum we need the conditions for a proton gradient and then the means to make use of it. Cells just got lucky in the makeup of their membranes? Cells that had a membrane that could allow for a proton gradient were more likely to replicate than those that didn't? Assuming they could replicate at all without ATP. I guess it's possible that there is diffusion but that it's finely tuned in some way to allow for a gradient. But what are the odds of that? ;) Proton Pump So it all comes back to the cell membrane, my favorite topic, haha. Imagine that.

The cell membrane is the most dynamic structure in the cell. Its main function is as a permeability barrier that regulates the passage of substances into and out of the cell. The plasma membrane is the definitive structure of a cell since it sequesters the molecules of life in the cytoplasm, separating it from the outside environment. The bacterial membrane freely allows passage of water and a few small uncharged molecules (less than molecular weight of 100 daltons), but it does not allow passage of larger molecules or any charged substances except when monitored by proteins in the membrane called transport systems. - Permeability Barrier

Solute Movement Mung

BA77's video link from #10 is a good one, and explains how the proton gradient is maintained in the context of photosynthesis system. Chance Ratcliff

BA posted this inaccuracy:

In what I find to be a absolutely fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life, which is an absolutely vital link that all higher life on earth is dependent on for food, uses ‘non-local’ quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis:

Not on this planet it isn't. Photosynthesis is impossible in the abyssal hot smoker ecologies. Not so absolutely vital for "higher life", apparently. timothya

BA77@10, thanks for the links. I'll spend some time with them when I get the chance. :) Chance Ratcliff

Mung,

"(Is that essentially the same as mechanical energy?)"

Yes, I believe so.

In what sense is energy stored in protons?

It's stored in the gradient itself, which is defined as a higher concentration of protons on one side of a membrane than the other. I'm picturing two air tanks, one pressurized and the other not, both connected together. The transfer of air from one to the other could be harnessed and converted to mechanical energy. From there converting to other forms would be straightforward. I think your water wheel is an appropriate metaphor. In order to keep it running, some process needs to bring water from the bottom back to the top. This is apparently what occurs in biological systems. See the quote I provided from your video at #8, which occurs around the three minute mark. This video might provide some insights, but I haven't had a chance to watch it yet.

How in the world could natural processes have “discovered” by trial and error that a proton gradient could be turned into another useful form of energy?

I take it that "natural selection" is not a sufficient explanation for you then. In fact, to me it doesn't seem necessary nor does it seem sufficient for the generation of biological novelty. Chance Ratcliff

seems your favorite is the same as my broken link. =p

Hehe. I imagine many of us have that one in our list. ;) Chance Ratcliff

For cells that lack mitochondria, where is the proton gradient created? Mung

So maybe I am using the wrong metaphor, but so far it seems appropriate to me. Say there is a waterfall. A gradient. Some Intelligent Designer comes along and builds a water wheel. Now we have "rotational energy." (Is that essentially the same as mechanical energy?) And then we convert that energy into something else, maybe another "form" of energy. Where's the initial energy? We don't call it "water energy" do we? Or a "water gradient." In what sense is energy stored in protons? How in the world could natural processes have "discovered" by trial and error that a proton gradient could be turned into another useful form of energy? Mung

lol chance. seems your favorite is the same as my broken link. =p Mung

ATP synthase structure and mechanism What does it mean to say that there is energy stored in a proton gradient? Mung

Further fine tuning of light is discussed in the following videos and podcast:

Fine Tuning Of Universal Constants, Particularly Light – Walter Bradley – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491552 Michael Denton: Remarkable Coincidences in Photosynthesis - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/09/michael_denton_remarkable_coin.html Intelligent Design - Light and Water - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4669620 Proverbs 3:19 "The Lord by wisdom founded the earth: by understanding He established the heavens;"

bornagain77

As well, Please note the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a 'hypothetical' observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light(Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)

Approaching The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/

As well, it is very curious to note that it takes a infinite amount of information to give a complete description of a photon:

Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201

The following experiment actually showed that information can be encoded into a photon while it is in its quantum wave state,

Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.,,, Quantum mechanics dictates some strange things at that scale, so that bit of light could be thought of as both a particle and a wave. As a wave, it passed through all parts of the stencil at once, carrying the "shadow" of the UR with it. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html

Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! Light is found, in our experiments for special relativity, to be ‘eternal’. As well, a photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus 'non-locally', to just a '1 or 0' state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction of the photon to its particle state. Moreover, a non-local, beyond space and time, cause is needed to explain the 'harvesting of energy' in photosynthesis. Energy that all other complex biological life on earth is ultimately dependent on. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints (eternal), as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon and in the non-local quantum coherence of photosynthesis??? ,,,In my personal opinion, even though this is not hashed out in exhaustive detail yet, and regardless of what atheists may think, all this evidence is about as sweet as it can get in experimental science as to providing empirical proof that Almighty God created, and sustains, this universe and all life in it.,,,

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. Jeremy Camp – The Way (Official Music Video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q6o4sbndVE

Further notes: As well, it is found that light is extremely fine tuned to the atmosphere, to biological molecules and to water, for life to exist:

Extreme (1 in 10^24) Fine Tuning of Light for Life and Scientific Discovery - Richards, Gonzalez - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/7715887

Visible light is incredibly fine-tuned for life to exist. Though visible light is only a tiny fraction of the total electromagnetic spectrum coming from the sun, it happens to be the "most permitted" portion of the sun's spectrum allowed to filter through the our atmosphere. All the other bands of electromagnetic radiation, directly surrounding visible light, happen to be harmful to organic molecules, and are almost completely absorbed by the atmosphere. The tiny amount of harmful UV radiation, which is not visible light, allowed to filter through the atmosphere is needed to keep various populations of single cell bacteria from over-populating the world (Ross; reasons.org). The size of light's wavelengths and the constraints on the size allowable for the protein molecules of organic life, also seem to be tailor-made for each other. This "tailor-made fit" allows photosynthesis, the miracle of sight, and many other things that are necessary for human life. These specific frequencies of light (that enable plants to manufacture food and astronomers to observe the cosmos) represent less than 1 trillionth of a trillionth (10^-24) of the universe's entire range of electromagnetic emissions. Like water, visible light also appears to be of optimal biological utility (M.Denton; W.Bradley; G.Gonzalez; J.Richards).

Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water – graphs https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ

bornagain77

A few notes: ATP synthase also lays at the heart of photosynthesis:

Electron transport and ATP synthesis during photosynthesis - Illustration http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=cooper.figgrp.1672 The Miracle Of Photosynthesis - electron transport - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_WKgnL6MI

And we now have evidence for photosynthetic life suddenly appearing on earth, as soon as water appeared on the earth, in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth.

The Sudden Appearance Of Photosynthetic Life On Earth - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4262918 U-rich Archaean sea-floor sediments from Greenland - indications of +3700 Ma oxygenic photosynthesis (2003) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004E&PSL.217..237R

Moreover there is no evidence of prebiotic chemical signatures

Dr. Hugh Ross - Origin Of Life Paradox (No prebiotic chemical signatures)- video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4012696

And although the specifications of ATP synthase are enough to make any engineer worth his salt drool, and are surely indicative of vastly superior design, I would like focus in on photosynthesis itself. In what I find to be a absolutely fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life, which is an absolutely vital link that all higher life on earth is dependent on for food, uses ‘non-local’ quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis:

Non-Local Quantum Coherence In Photosynthesis - video with notes in description http://vimeo.com/30235178 Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: "We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once -- a quantum superposition state, or coherence -- and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.",,, "It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics nearly two billion years before humans," says Scholes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203131356.htm

Yet to explain quantum correlations, one must appeal to a beyond space and time cause:

Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm

And since all higher life forms on earth are ultimately dependent of photosynthesis in order to receive their food, the implications should be obvious:

Psalm 104:14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the labor of man, So that he may bring forth food from the earth,

But to further solidify the inference for a beyond space and time cause for photosynthesis, it would be worthwhile to reflect on light itself for a moment.,, Time, as we understand it temporally, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole 'time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light' concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same 'thought experiment' that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.

Albert Einstein - Special Relativity - Insight Into Eternity - 'thought experiment' video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/

That is to say, traveling at the speed of light will only get us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, 'past and future folding into now', framework of time. This higher dimension, 'eternal', inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not 'frozen within time' yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light.

"I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein - The Einstein Factor - Reader's Digest "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

bornagain77

Yet another example that highlights the absurdity of blind, unguided and purposeless goo to you by way of the zoo fairy tale theory of neo Darwinian!! Intelligent Design is science and NDE is a myth . JoeMorreale1187

From Gradients (ATP Synthases):

In biological systems however, a gradient is always maintained.

Is this because it provides a selective advantage? Of course, biological systems in which a gradient is always maintained have a definite reproductive advantage, I suppose. Chance Ratcliff

Of course, this motor bears no resemblance to human design, because we know that God simply does not design things that way, because, he doesn't. Oops, wrong thread. Chance Ratcliff

To note, with ATP Synthase, proton energy is used to convert mechanical energy into the chemical energy stored in ATP. This process can also run in reverse, hydrolyzing ATP to charge the proton gradient, if the concentration of ATP is high and the proton gradient low, as this video explains. Chance Ratcliff

This association appears to have occurred early in evolutionary history, because essentially the same structure and activity of ATP synthase enzymes are present in all kingdoms of life.

Why is it assumed that this enzyme evolved? Are we not often reminded that evolutionary theory is supposedly separate from OOL? I gather that all ubiquitous proteins and systems "occurred early in evolutionary history." Here is one of my favorites for ATP Synthase, and still one of the best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7P4xOUPYVw Mung, thanks for the Gradients (ATP Synthases) link; it's also a goody. BTW, your "ATP synthase structure and mechanism" link is broken. Chance Ratcliff

ATP Synthase is a molecular machine found in all living organisms.

Wikipedia:

ATP synthase is an important enzyme that provides energy for the cell to use through the synthesis of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP is the most commonly used "energy currency" of cells from most organisms. It is formed from adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and inorganic phosphate (Pi), and needs energy.

It takes energy to make energy! But are we really converting one type of energy to another type of energy?

The evolution of ATP synthase is thought to be an example of modular evolution during which two functionally independent subunits became associated and gained new functionality. This association appears to have occurred early in evolutionary history, because essentially the same structure and activity of ATP synthase enzymes are present in all kingdoms of life. The F-ATP synthase displays high functional and mechanistic similarity to the V-ATPase. However, whereas the F-ATP synthase generates ATP by utilising a proton gradient, the V-ATPase generates a proton gradient at the expense of ATP, generating pH values of as low as 1.

Wow. One uses a gradient, another creates a gradient. All accidental like. Which came first, the gradient or the membrane? Gradients (ATP Synthases) Cellular Respiration (Electron Transport Chain) How many different types of energy are involved here!? Rotational energy: ATP synthase structure and mechanism And it works in reverse! This is stunning Intelligent Design, Eric! ;) ATP Synthase (FoF1-complex) Home ATP synthase is a huge molecular complex http://enzyme.expasy.org/EC/3.6.3.14 mah Mung

He should have been an artist Some would say he is, I suppose, of a flim-flam kind. 'O, that this too too solid flesh would melt, thaw and resolve itself into a dew!' It's that magic he yearns for. Not the magic of the supernatural. The kind whereby nothing turns itself into everything. And logic is only binding when you want it to be. Axel

I was just going to say: 'Deceptive, eh? Looks as if it had been designed. I wonder what basis Ritchie has for questioning the reliability of our senses with regard to the natural world, solely with regard to design, the very concept upon which science, EMPIRICAL science, is based. Axel

Whether Lab or Cell, (If it's a molecular machine) It's Design - Dr. Gauger - podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-01-25T15_53_41-08_00 bornagain77